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QuoteIsrael's Sephardim abuzz at expanded Spanish citizenship offer
(Reuters) - The expansion of Spain's offer of citizenship to descendants of Jews it expelled en masse in 1492 has sparked interest in Israel, where the so-called Sephardim make up around a quarter of the population.
While no one predicts an Israeli exodus to economically bruised Spain, a passport granting access to the wider European Union appeals to many in the war-wary Jewish state - especially its disproportionately large Sephardic underclass.
Amending a decades-old law, Spain on Friday said it would allow foreign Sephardim - old Hebrew for Spaniards - who become nationals to keep their original citizenship.
Though the amendment awaits parliamentary ratification, the Spanish embassy in Israel said on Monday it had received "many" inquiries from potential applicants. Israeli media republished Madrid's list of typical Sephardic names, meant to help locate eligible kin, and celebrity candidates debated the opportunity.
Apparently there's a surname list making the rounds in the Israeli papers with a compendium of surnames of Sephardi origin, so people can check if they could be eligible. :lol:
http://my.ynet.co.il/pic/news/nombres.pdf (http://my.ynet.co.il/pic/news/nombres.pdf)
My maternal grandma's surname is in there. :ph34r:
Quote from: The Larch on February 10, 2014, 12:41:37 PM
My maternal grandma's surname is in there. :ph34r:
So, care to spill the details of the worldwide Jewish conspiracy, or did your grandma forget to pass on the memo?
Quote from: Tamas on February 10, 2014, 12:59:25 PM
Quote from: The Larch on February 10, 2014, 12:41:37 PM
My maternal grandma's surname is in there. :ph34r:
So, care to spill the details of the worldwide Jewish conspiracy, or did your grandma forget to pass on the memo?
My grandma is a hard core rural Catholic, I guess that the secret handshake was lost somewhere down the line over the past centuries. :lol:
Some of those surnames are very common.
Quote from: The Larch on February 10, 2014, 01:02:34 PM
Quote from: Tamas on February 10, 2014, 12:59:25 PM
Quote from: The Larch on February 10, 2014, 12:41:37 PM
My maternal grandma's surname is in there. :ph34r:
So, care to spill the details of the worldwide Jewish conspiracy, or did your grandma forget to pass on the memo?
My grandma is a hard core rural Catholic, I guess that the secret handshake was lost somewhere down the line over the past centuries. :lol:
An excellent cover.
Quote from: Grinning_Colossus on February 10, 2014, 01:10:33 PM
Some of those surnames are very common.
My wife's maiden name is on that list. OMG SHE'S JEWISH.
Not that there's anything wrong with that :P
So how would this work? You are going to have to prove full ancestry?
this is silly
where your ancestors lived 66, 522 or 1978 years ago really should not matter for citizenship.
Quote from: garbon on February 10, 2014, 01:17:18 PM
So how would this work? You are going to have to prove full ancestry?
No idea yet, the bill is still in the works at a draft stage.
Quote from: derspiess on February 10, 2014, 01:16:10 PM
Quote from: Grinning_Colossus on February 10, 2014, 01:10:33 PM
Some of those surnames are very common.
My wife's maiden name is on that list. OMG SHE'S JEWISH.
Not that there's anything wrong with that :P
Then she can claim Spanish citizenship, and then both you and your kids could have it as well. Welcome to Spain. :hug:
Quote from: The Larch on February 10, 2014, 01:31:37 PM
Quote from: derspiess on February 10, 2014, 01:16:10 PM
Quote from: Grinning_Colossus on February 10, 2014, 01:10:33 PM
Some of those surnames are very common.
My wife's maiden name is on that list. OMG SHE'S JEWISH.
Not that there's anything wrong with that :P
Then she can claim Spanish citizenship, and then both you and your kids could have it as well. Welcome to Spain. :hug:
:secret:
I think you mean welcome to the EU.
My maternal grandma's name is also on the list. It's a pretty clear case of converso name though, so I've always figured I had either Jew or Mudejar ancestry (maybe both).
Anyone see Williams on the list? :unsure:
It sounds Spanish/Jewish, right?
Guillermo is indeed on the list.
My mother in laws maiden name is on there. :hmm: :Joos
Quote from: Iormlund on February 10, 2014, 01:45:35 PM
Guillermo is indeed on the list.
:w00t: :yeah:
I get to be in the EU!!
:w00t: :yeah:
Quote from: Grinning_Colossus on February 10, 2014, 01:10:33 PM
Some of those surnames are very common.
In Spain and America, sure. But it would be telling in those who left for the Mahgreb or the Ottoman Empire.
Quote from: merithyn on February 10, 2014, 01:48:49 PM
Quote from: Iormlund on February 10, 2014, 01:45:35 PM
Guillermo is indeed on the list.
:w00t: :yeah:
I get to be in the EU!!
:w00t: :yeah:
I'm guessing you'll have to meet other requirements. Such as speaking Ladino. Siege can teach you, he'll have no trouble getting his passport if this ends up being the new law. :P
Quote from: Iormlund on February 10, 2014, 01:55:31 PM
Quote from: merithyn on February 10, 2014, 01:48:49 PM
Quote from: Iormlund on February 10, 2014, 01:45:35 PM
Guillermo is indeed on the list.
:w00t: :yeah:
I get to be in the EU!!
:w00t: :yeah:
I'm guessing you'll have to meet other requirements. Such as speaking Ladino. Siege can teach you, he'll have no trouble getting his passport if this ends up being the new law. :P
I took high school Spanish. Is that the same thing? :unsure:
Quote from: Iormlund on February 10, 2014, 01:41:26 PM
My maternal grandma's name is also on the list. It's a pretty clear case of converso name though, so I've always figured I had either Jew or Mudejar ancestry (maybe both).
Same here, got a converso surname myself.
Quote from: The Larch on February 10, 2014, 01:31:37 PM
Then she can claim Spanish citizenship, and then both you and your kids could have it as well. Welcome to Spain. :hug:
:hmm: Juggling three different passports may get confusing.
It's probably hard to find a Spaniard with no
converso ancestry after all these centuries.
Quote from: merithyn on February 10, 2014, 01:57:22 PM
I took high school Spanish. Is that the same thing? :unsure:
Just close enough to be understandable. Ladino is kind of archaic Castillian mixed with Hebrew and the languages of places where the exiles fled to (Turkish, Bulgarian, Arabic ...).
Pff, I'll just claim my birthright and move to Mallorca on my German passport.
Has anyone done any genetic testing of current Spaniards to ascertain the different weights of Berber, Vandal, Celt, etc?
That would be difficult, because first you'd have to establish a genetic baseline for those ethnic categories. For instance, given that Celtic culture was evidently transmitted to the British Isles indirectly by trade and cultural contact rather than by colonization, the French would be more genetically 'Celtic' --insofar as they're descended from the first Celtic-speakers-- than the Irish.
Quote from: Admiral Yi on February 10, 2014, 02:58:13 PM
Has anyone done any genetic testing of current Spaniards to ascertain the different weights of Berber, Vandal, Celt, etc?
It seems to be still dominated by the original Celtiberian inhabitants.
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2F4.bp.blogspot.com%2F-njRXvMXHY_Y%2FTmadqep0L_I%2FAAAAAAAABCw%2FAGGM8jCDW-0%2Fs1600%2FScreenshot_123.jpg&hash=55b1a09d385acc2c95a1e75e2b5b4e99840417e5)
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2F3.bp.blogspot.com%2F-QDjeP_vCcms%2FTmadq0zkQKI%2FAAAAAAAABC0%2F4e7jDOy6ZNM%2Fs1600%2FScreenshot_22121.jpg&hash=21ade31f7a62040773748e89d34655e854b6a1f5)
Quote from: Grinning_Colossus on February 10, 2014, 03:04:58 PM
That would be difficult, because first you'd have to establish a genetic baseline for those ethnic categories. For instance, given that Celtic culture was evidently transmitted to the British Isles indirectly by trade and cultural contact rather than by colonization, the French would be more genetically 'Celtic' --insofar as they're descended from the first Celtic-speakers-- than the Irish.
No shit? I didn't know that. Then what were aboriginal Britons and aboriginal Irish? A completely separate linguistic/ethnic group from Celts and Germans?
Quote from: Admiral Yi on February 10, 2014, 02:58:13 PM
Has anyone done any genetic testing of current Spaniards to ascertain the different weights of Berber, Vandal, Celt, etc?
Yes. 0% Berber. Next question :mad:
Unless the Basques are also Celtiberians, R1b3 isn't a Celtiberian gene, it's a gene that's common where the Celtiberian culture existed.
Quote from: Ideologue on February 10, 2014, 03:13:03 PM
Quote from: Grinning_Colossus on February 10, 2014, 03:04:58 PM
That would be difficult, because first you'd have to establish a genetic baseline for those ethnic categories. For instance, given that Celtic culture was evidently transmitted to the British Isles indirectly by trade and cultural contact rather than by colonization, the French would be more genetically 'Celtic' --insofar as they're descended from the first Celtic-speakers-- than the Irish.
No shit? I didn't know that. Then what were aboriginal Britons and aboriginal Irish? A completely separate linguistic/ethnic group from Celts and Germans?
I'm not sure that there's a consensus on that, but as far as I know the prevailing theory is that Europeans are mostly descended from groups of Near Easterners who colonized Europe after they discovered agriculture. Indo-Europeans were a linguistic group that developed new horse-riding technology that let them spread their language the same way that the Turks and Germanic tribes did -- by establishing themselves as a ruling class rather than replacing the majority population (and in the case of the British Isles by indirect means, given that there's no archaeological evidence of a Celtic invasion).
So languish is full of crypto-Jews? :ph34r:
Iorm: are your two maps using the same codes?
GC: That's pretty cool. I'll have to look some more into it.
Something I forgot to say is "Why would anyone in their right mind want to emigrate to Spain?"
Quote from: Ideologue on February 10, 2014, 03:51:05 PM
Something I forgot to say is "Why would anyone in their right mind want to emigrate to Spain?"
I was trying to speak to that.
Quote from: garbon on February 10, 2014, 01:34:01 PM
Quote from: The Larch on February 10, 2014, 01:31:37 PM
Quote from: derspiess on February 10, 2014, 01:16:10 PM
Quote from: Grinning_Colossus on February 10, 2014, 01:10:33 PM
Some of those surnames are very common.
My wife's maiden name is on that list. OMG SHE'S JEWISH.
Not that there's anything wrong with that :P
Then she can claim Spanish citizenship, and then both you and your kids could have it as well. Welcome to Spain. :hug:
:secret:
I think you mean welcome to the EU.
That would sweeten the deal a little. :D
Quote from: Grinning_Colossus on February 10, 2014, 03:23:11 PM
I'm not sure that there's a consensus on that, but as far as I know the prevailing theory is that Europeans are mostly descended from groups of Near Easterners who colonized Europe after they discovered agriculture. Indo-Europeans were a linguistic group that developed new horse-riding technology that let them spread their language the same way that the Turks and Germanic tribes did -- by establishing themselves as a ruling class rather than replacing the majority population (and in the case of the British Isles by indirect means, given that there's no archaeological evidence of a Celtic invasion).
Neolithic agricultural techology allowed for much higher levels of population density. Once you have neolithic level populations in a place, they are very hard to displace without very concerted efforts at total extermination, which are quite rare historically. So it is not surprising that modern genetic analysis tends to show that most Europeans can trace descent from whatever substrate existed in the neolithic era, with some additional elements reflecting siginificant historical migratory episodes (e.g. some Scandinavian in various parts of the British Isles).
As for how I-E languages got spread, it really is a lot of speculation given how long ago it happened, the wide geographics spread, and the reliance on speculative constucts like proto-languages. It is certainlty quite possible that elite replacement is part of the story. But elite replacement isn't necessarily an obvious driver of linguistic change - the Norman conquest is a classic example of near total displacement of a ruling class and yet the English language survived. As opposed to the earlier Anglo-Saxon movements which probably did not involve a complete political deplacement and yet did ultimately result in linguistic change in core areas of Britain. In thinking about I-E it could be that migratory groups that spoke those languages exerted a cultural attraction that went beyond simple political domination. For example, imgaine you are a young man (or woman) in a small farming village looking forward to a very circumscribed life of labor in the fields. All of a sudden these ancient cowboy types show up with their horses and cattle and strange stories from other places. It isn't hard to imgaine the "best and brightest" of indigenes being drawn to the new cultural system, including the new language as a badge of differentiation. Of course this is all total speculation. We really don't know for sure how it happened.
Quote from: Grinning_Colossus on February 10, 2014, 03:16:18 PM
Unless the Basques are also Celtiberians, R1b3 isn't a Celtiberian gene, it's a gene that's common where the Celtiberian culture existed.
The point was that newcomers seem to have had a relatively limited impact on genetic composition despite all the visits and invasions in the last couple millenia.
Though the relationship between Basques, Iberians and Celtiberians is a very interesting (and murky) topic in itself.
Quote from: Admiral Yi on February 10, 2014, 03:50:27 PM
Iorm: are your two maps using the same codes?
No.
Quote from: Ideologue on February 10, 2014, 03:13:03 PM
Quote from: Grinning_Colossus on February 10, 2014, 03:04:58 PM
That would be difficult, because first you'd have to establish a genetic baseline for those ethnic categories. For instance, given that Celtic culture was evidently transmitted to the British Isles indirectly by trade and cultural contact rather than by colonization, the French would be more genetically 'Celtic' --insofar as they're descended from the first Celtic-speakers-- than the Irish.
No shit? I didn't know that. Then what were aboriginal Britons and aboriginal Irish? A completely separate linguistic/ethnic group from Celts and Germans?
The Picts up in Scotland spoke a non-IndoEuropean language. I think the assumption is that at one time they were the main population group throughout the British Isles, but AFAIK that's mostly speculation. And while linguistically they were quite distinct from Celts and Germans, I'm not sure about how distinct they were ethnically.
The guy that wrote the Bloodof the Isles book claimed little ethnic/genetic difference between "Picts" and "celts". Don't know anything about linguistic differences - what would be the evidence for that anyways? Presumably not texts.
Quote from: The Minsky Moment on February 10, 2014, 05:33:55 PM
The guy that wrote the Bloodof the Isles book claimed little ethnic/genetic difference between "Picts" and "celts". Don't know anything about linguistic differences - what would be the evidence for that anyways? Presumably not texts.
The only way I could think of is recorded proper names either for places or people. In this regard they don't seem to be different then their neighbors. Of course that's hardly definitive.
Ide IIRC the original Britons would probably be the descendants of those humans who survived the last glaciation period around the Pyrenees, and thus closely related to Iberians. This can be still seen today in the prevalence of r1b (bright red in the map I pasted) in Spain, Ireland and Wales.
In the case of Spain we do know that Iberians/Basques spoke a different language than the arriving Celts - we have Iberian texts, Roman testimony and of course Basque still exists.
Quote from: Iormlund on February 10, 2014, 04:33:45 PM
No.
Would you happen to know what the big cream colored wedge of Ibiza's pie represents?
Why would I want the citizenship of a country that chased off my forefathers?
Besides, despite one third of Spaniards being descendant from Sefarad, they are all a bunch of anti-semites, Palestinian-lovers, racists pricks.
Os podeis quedar con vuestra pocilga.
* looks at his watch*
Friggin Spaniards didn't bite my bait?
Disappointing.
Wow, that ladino sentence is perfectly intelegible to me, didn't knew the language was that close to modern iberian languages.
Both my surnames apear on that list, lol, I believe it might contain around 90% of all Iberian (non basque) surnames.
There is a similar law in Portugal. As for the surnames, since force-converting went with giving Christian First names and surnames, there are only some which are dead giveaways of jewish heritage.
Clandestino
Yeah, Ladino is archaic Castilian which itself is closer to Portuguese.
Quote from: clandestino on February 10, 2014, 07:46:22 PM
Wow, that ladino sentence is perfectly intelegible to me, didn't knew the language was that close to modern iberian languages.
Both my surnames apear on that list, lol, I believe it might contain around 90% of all Iberian (non basque) surnames.
My names weren't on the list :)
I claim the Visigothic crown.
Quote from: katmai on February 10, 2014, 07:59:18 PM
Quote from: clandestino on February 10, 2014, 07:46:22 PM
Wow, that ladino sentence is perfectly intelegible to me, didn't knew the language was that close to modern iberian languages.
Both my surnames apear on that list, lol, I believe it might contain around 90% of all Iberian (non basque) surnames.
My names weren't on the list :)
Me neither. But Hernandez and Bolivar (maternal grandmother's last names) don't seem like Sephardic last names, so no surprise there. :lol:
Quote from: The Minsky Moment on February 10, 2014, 04:17:54 PM
For example, imgaine you are a young man (or woman) in a small farming village looking forward to a very circumscribed life of labor in the fields. All of a sudden these ancient cowboy types show up with their horses and cattle and strange stories from other places. It isn't hard to imgaine the "best and brightest" of indigenes being drawn to the new cultural system, including the new language as a badge of differentiation. Of course this is all total speculation. We really don't know for sure how it happened.
Now I want someone to make The Seven Cavemen.
Quote from: Siege on February 10, 2014, 07:23:33 PM
Why would I want the citizenship of a country that chased off my forefathers?
Besides, despite one third of Spaniards being descendant from Sefarad, they are all a bunch of anti-semites, Palestinian-lovers, racists pricks.
Os podeis quedar con vuestra pocilga.
You me like, Israel?
Quote from: Admiral Yi on February 10, 2014, 07:20:28 PM
Would you happen to know what the big cream colored wedge of Ibiza's pie represents?
I think it is: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_T-M184
How it got there is anyone's guess.
Quote from: Siege on February 10, 2014, 07:31:47 PM
* looks at his watch*
Friggin Spaniards didn't bite my bait?
Disappointing.
We were sleeping.
Quote from: celedhring on February 11, 2014, 03:47:49 AM
Quote from: Siege on February 10, 2014, 07:31:47 PM
* looks at his watch*
Friggin Spaniards didn't bite my bait?
Disappointing.
We were sleeping.
Also, he gave it only eight minutes. :rolleyes:
So Spain have decided to take a swing at Britain (I guess English is the most spoken foreign language amongst the concerned group) with an immigrant bomb.
Touche Spain. Touche.
Quote from: Iormlund on February 10, 2014, 03:12:08 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on February 10, 2014, 02:58:13 PM
Has anyone done any genetic testing of current Spaniards to ascertain the different weights of Berber, Vandal, Celt, etc?
It seems to be still dominated by the original Celtiberian inhabitants.
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2F4.bp.blogspot.com%2F-njRXvMXHY_Y%2FTmadqep0L_I%2FAAAAAAAABCw%2FAGGM8jCDW-0%2Fs1600%2FScreenshot_123.jpg&hash=55b1a09d385acc2c95a1e75e2b5b4e99840417e5)
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2F3.bp.blogspot.com%2F-QDjeP_vCcms%2FTmadq0zkQKI%2FAAAAAAAABC0%2F4e7jDOy6ZNM%2Fs1600%2FScreenshot_22121.jpg&hash=21ade31f7a62040773748e89d34655e854b6a1f5)
Hungary: least inbred :showoff:
Hungary: quarter Slav
The Huns got Gary?
That most be where the name comes from.
We're not taking back the Papists we threw out. Just making that clear.
Is England taking back the 1290 Jews btw?
Quote from: The Brain on February 11, 2014, 03:15:49 PM
Is England taking back the 1290 Jews btw?
They were invited back during the 1650s.
Unrelated to the main topic (except insofar as Spaniards don't seem to be related to Levantines), here's a pretty cool atlas of population genetics:
http://admixturemap.paintmychromosomes.com/ (http://admixturemap.paintmychromosomes.com/)