They were afraid the DPJ (Child protective services) would intervene in their affairs.
The community is Lev Tahor from Ste-Agathe-des-Monts. The girls are married at a very young age, officially at 16 to respect canadian laws, but they don't have any choices.
Since forced marriage are frowned upon in Quebec, they moved to the land of freedom, Ontario :)
We're talking the same as these guys here:
http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-4021877,00.html (http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-4021877,00.html)
Around 2011, 2 young israeli girls were arrested at Montreal's airport and returned to their country, upon an Israeli court order that decreed they were to be sent to a sect and joined in forced marriage.
And they tried the same stunt (http://www.ibtimes.com/israeli-family-caught-trying-join-jewish-taliban-canada-what-lev-tahor-cult-photo-1277071) again recently.
Quebec and Israel: same fascists battles. Thank God there's still freedom in Ontario where religion primes above everything else :) They'll be free to cover 3 year old girls from head to toe and marry them into "good" families :)
[url=http://www.lapresse.ca/actualites/national/201311/21/01-4713223-280-juifs-hassidiques-ultraorthodoxes-ont-fui-sainte-agathe-des-monts.phpFrench piece on their recent flight
Imho, it's good fucking riddance.
What the what now? :hmm:
Can you explain, in a couple of sentences, exactly what you are upset about?
Quote from: Malthus on November 21, 2013, 04:46:56 PM
What the what now? :hmm:
Can you explain, in a couple of sentences, exactly what you are upset about?
He's not upset, he's happy.
Quote from: Malthus on November 21, 2013, 04:46:56 PM
What the what now? :hmm:
Can you explain, in a couple of sentences, exactly what you are upset about?
Look at Grey Fox answer, I am happy, not upset :)
Ontario pride's itself in its religious tolerance, so religious extremists are moving there. I personally think it's great! :)
Quote from: viper37 on November 21, 2013, 04:53:58 PM
Quote from: Malthus on November 21, 2013, 04:46:56 PM
What the what now? :hmm:
Can you explain, in a couple of sentences, exactly what you are upset about?
Look at Grey Fox answer, I am happy, not upset :)
Ontario pride's itself in its religious tolerance, so religious extremists are moving there. I personally think it's great! :)
This has nothing whatsoever to do, as I understand it, with "religious tolerance". :lol:
Are you really of the opinion that child abuse is a-okay in Ontario? That there is no such thing as child protectivec services here?
Well, maybe thes guys, being Quebecers, share your delusions. If so, they are in for a sad realization.
Quote from: Malthus on November 21, 2013, 04:46:56 PM
What the what now? :hmm:
Can you explain, in a couple of sentences, exactly what you are upset about?
I think the Jews and the children are inconsequential, they're just ammunition with which to attack the Real enemy ?
Quote from: mongers on November 21, 2013, 05:09:40 PM
Quote from: Malthus on November 21, 2013, 04:46:56 PM
What the what now? :hmm:
Can you explain, in a couple of sentences, exactly what you are upset about?
I think the Jews and the children are inconsequential, they're just ammunition with which to attack the Real enemy ?
I resent Quebec firing Jews and children at Ontario. :(
Quote from: Malthus on November 21, 2013, 04:58:47 PM
This has nothing whatsoever to do, as I understand it, with "religious tolerance". :lol:
It has everything to do with multiculturalsim, imho, and what Ontario has recently voted to protect. These are the kind of people you attract.
Quote
Are you really of the opinion that child abuse is a-okay in Ontario? That there is no such thing as child protectivec services here?
I am of the opinion that when we're talking religious group, child protective services are more lenient, more hesitant to intervene than in other cases, in Quebec, Ontario and the rest of Canada.
Quote
Well, maybe thes guys, being Quebecers, share your delusions. If so, they are in for a sad realization.
They do believe they'll have an easier time in Ontario, and I'm incline to agree that they'll face less scrutiny for a while. Forced marriage are on the rise in Ontario, and it seems nothing is being done about it, in fact, Ontario and Canada still seem to value religious freedom above everything else, wich is a mistake.
These guys ain't unique, numerous Christian fringe groups/sects exists with similar behaviors; well, maybe not the face&head covering, but the rest of the behavior is hardly unique.
Well, they're Ontario's problem now.
Quote from: viper37 on November 21, 2013, 11:44:05 PM
It has everything to do with multiculturalsim, imho, and what Ontario has recently voted to protect. These are the kind of people you attract.
I am of the opinion that when we're talking religious group, child protective services are more lenient, more hesitant to intervene than in other cases, in Quebec, Ontario and the rest of Canada.
They do believe they'll have an easier time in Ontario, and I'm incline to agree that they'll face less scrutiny for a while. Forced marriage are on the rise in Ontario, and it seems nothing is being done about it, in fact, Ontario and Canada still seem to value religious freedom above everything else, wich is a mistake.
These guys ain't unique, numerous Christian fringe groups/sects exists with similar behaviors; well, maybe not the face&head covering, but the rest of the behavior is hardly unique.
Well, they're Ontario's problem now.
You have anything other than your say-so to substantiate your belief that Ontario in particular is a hotbed of evil cultitude?
Seems to me that whenever I hear about these freaky cult cases, they are in Quebec, or out west. Like the guys in your article, or these guys.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Order_of_the_Solar_Temple
If you are really interested in forced marriage specifically, perhaps you could read this, wherein it is pointed out that the problem exists in both Ontario and Quebec: http://www.justice.gc.ca/eng/rp-pr/cj-jp/fv-vf/fm-mf/p1.html#a1
Quebec rules, Ontario drools. :frog:
Quote from: Malthus on November 22, 2013, 09:22:05 AM
You have anything other than your say-so to substantiate your belief that Ontario in particular is a hotbed of evil cultitude?
Here is what I said:
I am of the opinion that when we're talking religious group, child protective services are more lenient, more hesitant to intervene than in other cases, in Quebec, Ontario and the rest of Canada.[/u]
Quote
If you are really interested in forced marriage specifically, perhaps you could read this, wherein it is pointed out that the problem exists in both Ontario and Quebec: http://www.justice.gc.ca/eng/rp-pr/cj-jp/fv-vf/fm-mf/p1.html#a1
My opinion is that Quebec is trying to do something about this, albeit badly. It is trying to do something about religious excess, where as Canada is so afraid of losing its multiculturalism status that it won't move an inch. And it gives stuff like that when you are too lenient on religious beliefs, as Quebec has been for years. We tend to excuse way too much under the guise of religious freedom, and this will have to change in the near future, imho.
Of course, there are non religious sects as well, or numerous Christians sect. And there are officially recognized religions I would categorize as sects myself (Jeovah's Witnesses and Raelians most notably).
Quote from: viper37 on November 22, 2013, 09:56:59 AM
Quote from: Malthus on November 22, 2013, 09:22:05 AM
You have anything other than your say-so to substantiate your belief that Ontario in particular is a hotbed of evil cultitude?
Here is what I said:
I am of the opinion that when we're talking religious group, child protective services are more lenient, more hesitant to intervene than in other cases, in Quebec, Ontario and the rest of Canada.[/u]
Quote
If you are really interested in forced marriage specifically, perhaps you could read this, wherein it is pointed out that the problem exists in both Ontario and Quebec: http://www.justice.gc.ca/eng/rp-pr/cj-jp/fv-vf/fm-mf/p1.html#a1
My opinion is that Quebec is trying to do something about this, albeit badly. It is trying to do something about religious excess, where as Canada is so afraid of losing its multiculturalism status that it won't move an inch. And it gives stuff like that when you are too lenient on religious beliefs, as Quebec has been for years. We tend to excuse way too much under the guise of religious freedom, and this will have to change in the near future, imho.
Of course, there are non religious sects as well, or numerous Christians sect. And there are officially recognized religions I would categorize as sects myself (Jeovah's Witnesses and Raelians most notably).
The theory is, let people wear funny hats, and next thing you know they are marrying off their kids? Prevent people from wearing funny hats, and the kid-marrying thing goes away?
This is similar in reasoning to "the solution to today's violent youth is to prohibit heavy metal music and video games".
Quote from: Malthus on November 22, 2013, 10:41:57 AM
The theory is, let people wear funny hats, and next thing you know they are marrying off their kids? Prevent people from wearing funny hats, and the kid-marrying thing goes away?
No.
As I said, the charter is a mess. The clothing part is only that, a part of it, not even the most important.
But, if you restrict accomodations made on the basis of religion, you send a clear message that not everything is tolerated under the guise of "freedom of religion".
If you don't allow Children to attend religious schools that do not conform to our other schools' curriculum, you minimise such risks, as the Child protective services would then have a clear basis on when to intervene: children don't attend officially recognized schools = children removed from family.
However, if you start giving exemptions for some Jewish or Muslim groups to teach their kids their values in their special schools, than you are creating a situation where it is harder to intervene for other sects, since they can easily point a finger toward other minorities who have such exemption.
Also, I wonder how the fuck can someone with a criminal record for kidnapping in his country of origin is allowed to immigrate in Canada.
Quote
This is similar in reasoning to "the solution to today's violent youth is to prohibit heavy metal music and video games".
Nah. Heavy metal is what calms me, when I feel like I want to punch someone. And video games help me by killing virtual people so I don't need to strangle anyone :P
I don't think its fair to make cracks about Ontario over this. It's a pipe dream to think these problems can be solved so easily, people can always Ford the crossing to the next province.
I wonder whether the anti-Ontario frustration in Quebec is ultimately due to losing the Expos, while Toronto still has a mayor league team.
Quote from: The Minsky Moment on November 22, 2013, 11:19:33 AM
I don't think its fair to make cracks about Ontario over this.
Who cares if it's fair, it's fun.
Quote from: The Minsky Moment on November 22, 2013, 11:19:33 AM
I wonder whether the anti-Ontario frustration in Quebec is ultimately due to losing the Expos, while Toronto still has a mayor league team.
That was, indeed, a tragedy :weep:
And worse we got the Nats out of the deal :yuk:
Quote from: The Minsky Moment on November 22, 2013, 11:19:33 AM
I don't think its fair to make cracks about Ontario over this. It's a pipe dream to think these problems can be solved so easily, people can always Ford the crossing to the next province.
I wonder whether the anti-Ontario frustration in Quebec is ultimately due to losing the Expos, while Toronto still has a mayor league team.
It's because the assholes stole a good chunk of right full Quebec land.
Joan's trying to keep on the punny side of life, it seems... :hmm:
Quote from: The Minsky Moment on November 22, 2013, 11:19:33 AM
I wonder whether the anti-Ontario frustration in Quebec is ultimately due to losing the Expos, while Toronto still has a mayor league team.
It seems it all started around 1840. Prior to that, they were simply
"Les maudits Anglais" ;)
I thought sex between adults and minors was okay for Quebec, I mean the one of the biggest Quebec nationalists engages in that. :huh:
Quote from: Razgovory on November 22, 2013, 05:11:30 PM
I thought sex between adults and minors was okay for Quebec, I mean the one of the biggest Quebec nationalists engages in that. :huh:
But nobody in Quebec likes
marriage. ;)
Quote from: Razgovory on November 22, 2013, 05:11:30 PM
I thought sex between adults and minors was okay for Quebec, I mean the one of the biggest Quebec nationalists engages in that. :huh:
whom are you refering to?
Quote from: Malthus on November 22, 2013, 05:21:35 PM
Quote from: Razgovory on November 22, 2013, 05:11:30 PM
I thought sex between adults and minors was okay for Quebec, I mean the one of the biggest Quebec nationalists engages in that. :huh:
But nobody in Quebec likes marriage. ;)
True. If you marry, when you quit your wife, she owns half of what you have. If you don't marry, you only pay for the kids, until they stop studying. That puts a break on religious fervor ;)
Quote from: viper37 on November 22, 2013, 07:43:19 PM
That puts a break on religious fervor ;)
That also puts on religious fervor a... whatchamacallit... you know, the thing that stops your car when you press the pedal.
Quote from: grumbler on November 22, 2013, 08:18:52 PM
Quote from: viper37 on November 22, 2013, 07:43:19 PM
That puts a break on religious fervor ;)
That also puts on religious fervor a... whatchamacallit... you know, the thing that stops your car when you press the pedal.
Give him a break, he's French.
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on November 22, 2013, 08:24:00 PM
Quote from: grumbler on November 22, 2013, 08:18:52 PM
Quote from: viper37 on November 22, 2013, 07:43:19 PM
That puts a break on religious fervor ;)
That also puts on religious fervor a... whatchamacallit... you know, the thing that stops your car when you press the pedal.
Give him a break, he's French.
I was trying to give him a brake.
Are you going to give him a piece of that Kit Kat bar?
Quote from: viper37 on November 22, 2013, 07:41:36 PM
Quote from: Razgovory on November 22, 2013, 05:11:30 PM
I thought sex between adults and minors was okay for Quebec, I mean the one of the biggest Quebec nationalists engages in that. :huh:
whom are you refering to?
To whom are you referring?
Shouldnt end a sentence with a preposition. :smarty:
Quote from: sbr on November 22, 2013, 11:39:28 PM
To whom are you referring?
Shouldnt end a sentence with a preposition. :smarty:
This is the kind of pedantic nonsense up with which I will not put.
Quote from: Valmy on November 23, 2013, 12:18:15 AM
Quote from: sbr on November 22, 2013, 11:39:28 PM
To whom are you referring?
Shouldnt end a sentence with a preposition. :smarty:
This is the kind of pedantic nonsense up with which I will not put.
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fpbfcomics.com%2Farchive_b%2FPBF099-Grammar_Wizard.gif&hash=9ca3862831c37ad42aaaf2706babc18b5ad75964)
Quote from: jimmy olsen on November 23, 2013, 06:41:57 AM
Quote from: Valmy on November 23, 2013, 12:18:15 AM
Quote from: sbr on November 22, 2013, 11:39:28 PM
To whom are you referring?
Shouldnt end a sentence with a preposition. :smarty:
This is the kind of pedantic nonsense up with which I will not put.
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fpbfcomics.com%2Farchive_b%2FPBF099-Grammar_Wizard.gif&hash=9ca3862831c37ad42aaaf2706babc18b5ad75964)
Seems to be a perfectly appropriate response
Quote from: sbr on November 22, 2013, 11:39:28 PM
To whom are you referring?
Shouldnt end a sentence with a preposition. :smarty:
The OED says that sentences are fine things to end a proposition with. :smarty:
Follow up:
Ontarian courts says the children should be returned to Quebec.
Bad news: they have 30 days to comply.
I suspect they'll move to the US now.
Ontario court to rule Monday afternoon (http://www.thestar.com/news/gta/2014/02/03/ontario_court_to_rule_monday_afternoon_on_fate_of_lev_tahor_children.html)
Ontario judge rules Lev Tahor kids should be returned to Quebec (http://www.ctvnews.ca/canada/ontario-judge-rules-lev-tahor-kids-should-be-returned-to-quebec-1.1668710)
Hmm. So apparantly Ontario isn't as tolerant of child abuse as people in Quebec think.
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on November 22, 2013, 08:24:00 PM
Quote from: grumbler on November 22, 2013, 08:18:52 PM
Quote from: viper37 on November 22, 2013, 07:43:19 PM
That puts a break on religious fervor ;)
That also puts on religious fervor a... whatchamacallit... you know, the thing that stops your car when you press the pedal.
Give him a break, he's Québécois.
Fixed it for you. :)
Quote from: viper37 on February 03, 2014, 04:31:43 PM
Follow up:
Ontarian courts says the children should be returned to Quebec.
Bad news: they have 30 days to comply.
I suspect they'll move to the US now.
Ontario court to rule Monday afternoon (http://www.thestar.com/news/gta/2014/02/03/ontario_court_to_rule_monday_afternoon_on_fate_of_lev_tahor_children.html)
Ontario judge rules Lev Tahor kids should be returned to Quebec (http://www.ctvnews.ca/canada/ontario-judge-rules-lev-tahor-kids-should-be-returned-to-quebec-1.1668710)
They can't move to the US. Their leader is a wanted criminal there.
Quote from: dps on February 03, 2014, 06:16:40 PM
Hmm. So apparantly Ontario isn't as tolerant of child abuse as people in Quebec think.
In the life-or-death struggle against the rampaging evils of multiculturalism, quaint devices like courts and the rule of law are just signs of fatal weakness.
Quote from: dps on February 03, 2014, 06:16:40 PM
Hmm. So apparantly Ontario isn't as tolerant of child abuse as people in Quebec think.
The complaint was filed by Quebec's child services in an Ontarian court.
Quote from: The Minsky Moment on February 04, 2014, 12:52:02 PM
In the life-or-death struggle against the rampaging evils of multiculturalism, quaint devices like courts and the rule of law are just signs of fatal weakness.
They can still appeal. Meanwhile, the childs are still there as the judgement has been suspended for 30 days. If they weren't a Jewish sect, the judge would have had the judgement enforced immediatly.
Quote from: sbr on November 22, 2013, 11:39:28 PM
Quote from: viper37 on November 22, 2013, 07:41:36 PM
Quote from: Razgovory on November 22, 2013, 05:11:30 PM
I thought sex between adults and minors was okay for Quebec, I mean the one of the biggest Quebec nationalists engages in that. :huh:
whom are you refering to?
To whom are you referring?
Shouldnt end a sentence with a preposition. :smarty:
grallon
Quote from: viper37 on February 04, 2014, 06:40:02 PM
Quote from: The Minsky Moment on February 04, 2014, 12:52:02 PM
In the life-or-death struggle against the rampaging evils of multiculturalism, quaint devices like courts and the rule of law are just signs of fatal weakness.
They can still appeal. Meanwhile, the childs are still there as the judgement has been suspended for 30 days. If they weren't a Jewish sect, the judge would have had the judgement enforced immediatly.
Yeah, that's why Woody Allen isn't going to face any official inquiry into the allegations of child abuse against him--'cause he's Jewish.
Somebody should have given Jerry Sandusky a heads up--all he had to do was convert to Judism, and he'd be a free man today.
Still confused as to what a Taliban Jew is.
Yes viper. Tell us all about the evil influence of the Jews...
Quote from: Neil on February 04, 2014, 08:23:51 PM
Yes viper. Tell us all about the evil influence of the Jews...
Well i mean i wouldn't trust my child around Malthus or anything but....
Quote from: katmai on February 04, 2014, 08:07:18 PM
Still confused as to what a Taliban Jew is.
The Lev Tahor sect. Their teachings & treatment of women is eerily similar to how the Taliban treat women but they are Jewish, not Muslims.
Quote from: katmai on February 04, 2014, 08:27:25 PM
Quote from: Neil on February 04, 2014, 08:23:51 PM
Yes viper. Tell us all about the evil influence of the Jews...
Well i mean i wouldn't trust my child around Malthus or anything but....
Tell us more about this child of yours. :hmm:
I still have some matzoh to cook up ...
Quote from: viper37 on February 04, 2014, 06:40:02 PM
Quote from: The Minsky Moment on February 04, 2014, 12:52:02 PM
In the life-or-death struggle against the rampaging evils of multiculturalism, quaint devices like courts and the rule of law are just signs of fatal weakness.
They can still appeal.
A right to appeal? Monstrous.
Quote from: katmai on February 04, 2014, 08:07:18 PM
Still confused as to what a Taliban Jew is.
Jews who force women to wear chador, kidnap and murder westerners, and commit brutal acts of mass terrorism.
Oh wait they don't any of that.
Perhaps its a clever phrase made up by a journalist to whip up hysteria and sell copy? But surely that can't be so./
Quote from: The Minsky Moment on February 05, 2014, 10:45:26 AM
Quote from: katmai on February 04, 2014, 08:07:18 PM
Still confused as to what a Taliban Jew is.
Jews who force women to wear chador kidnap and murder westerners, and commit brutal acts of mass terrorism.
Oh wait they don't any of that.
Perhaps its a clever phrase made up by a journalist to whip up hysteria and sell copy? But surely that can't be so./
Not even the Taliban force the women to wear a chador (that's for shiia heretics! :osama:) they force them to wear the burqa. :contract:
"Taliban Jews" is a weird name.
According to Wiki it originated in the Israeli press. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shlomo_Helbrans#Lev_Tahor (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shlomo_Helbrans#Lev_Tahor)
In Canada, the Israeli state is King.
Quote from: Grey Fox on February 05, 2014, 02:05:28 PM
In Canada, the Israeli state is King.
I wonder how her Majesty feels about being a bigamist. :hmm:
Quote from: Malthus on February 05, 2014, 09:12:02 AM
Quote from: katmai on February 04, 2014, 08:27:25 PM
Quote from: Neil on February 04, 2014, 08:23:51 PM
Yes viper. Tell us all about the evil influence of the Jews...
Well i mean i wouldn't trust my child around Malthus or anything but....
Tell us more about this child of yours. :hmm:
I still have some matzoh to cook up ...
in the blood of Christian children no doubt
Quote from: Josephus on February 05, 2014, 04:38:07 PM
Quote from: Malthus on February 05, 2014, 09:12:02 AM
Quote from: katmai on February 04, 2014, 08:27:25 PM
Quote from: Neil on February 04, 2014, 08:23:51 PM
Yes viper. Tell us all about the evil influence of the Jews...
Well i mean i wouldn't trust my child around Malthus or anything but....
Tell us more about this child of yours. :hmm:
I still have some matzoh to cook up ...
in the blood of Christian children no doubt
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xECUrlnXCqk
Quote from: Malthus on February 05, 2014, 04:56:03 PM
Quote from: Josephus on February 05, 2014, 04:38:07 PM
Quote from: Malthus on February 05, 2014, 09:12:02 AM
Quote from: katmai on February 04, 2014, 08:27:25 PM
Quote from: Neil on February 04, 2014, 08:23:51 PM
Yes viper. Tell us all about the evil influence of the Jews...
Well i mean i wouldn't trust my child around Malthus or anything but....
Tell us more about this child of yours. :hmm:
I still have some matzoh to cook up ...
in the blood of Christian children no doubt
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xECUrlnXCqk
;)
Quote from: The Minsky Moment on February 05, 2014, 10:40:11 AM
A right to appeal? Monstrous.
Well, this ain't the US, we don't get to ship the crazy religious fanatics types to Congress and Guantanamo, so yeah, they'll appeal.
What concerns me is they still have the kids during that time.
Now, remove the religious sect thingie from the equation. Abusive parents, as recognized by the Child services and the courts keep their children in harm's way. Things would be much more expeditive. But now, they fear some multicultural bullshit backlash instead of striking hard on the zealots.
Anti-Semitism!!!!!!11111
Quote from: Siege on February 06, 2014, 09:50:28 PM
Anti-Semitism!!!!!!11111
Malthus should really be ashamed of himself.
Quote from: viper37 on February 06, 2014, 07:24:23 PM
Now, remove the religious sect thingie from the equation. Abusive parents, as recognized by the Child services and the courts keep their children in harm's way. Things would be much more expeditive. But now, they fear some multicultural bullshit backlash instead of striking hard on the zealots.
AFAIK governments can't remove children from parents without due process and proper proof, whether "crazy religious sects" are involved or not.
Well not in the anglophone world.
Quote from: The Minsky Moment on February 07, 2014, 02:47:04 AM
AFAIK governments can't remove children from parents without due process and proper proof, whether "crazy religious sects" are involved or not.
Your statement is invalid in Russia, China, North korea, and Viperland.
If a parent is a proper poof then remove away I say.
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on February 07, 2014, 02:18:50 AM
Quote from: Siege on February 06, 2014, 09:50:28 PM
Anti-Semitism!!!!!!11111
Malthus should really be ashamed of himself.
Oh I am.
But shame merely drives me to yet greater acts of depravity, I'm afraid. :(
Quote from: The Minsky Moment on February 07, 2014, 02:47:04 AM
AFAIK governments can't remove children from parents without due process and proper proof, whether "crazy religious sects" are involved or not.
There has been due process. But you don't wait 10 years in appeal court to remove children from crazy religious sects.
To elaborate because you obviously didn't read the story and simply focus on the "jew" part which seemed to have shocked you: Quebec's child services were about to intervene, so the sect moved to Ontario during the night, before due process could happen.
Quote from: Siege on February 06, 2014, 09:50:28 PM
Anti-Semitism!!!!!!11111
I just don't like religious lunatics and fanatics. Christians, muslims or jews, they're all the same to me when they're crazy, and they shouldn't be entitled to any specific considerations.
Quote from: viper37 on February 07, 2014, 10:30:09 AM
Quote from: Siege on February 06, 2014, 09:50:28 PM
Anti-Semitism!!!!!!11111
I just don't like religious lunatics and fanatics. Christians, muslims or jews, they're all the same to me when they're crazy, and they shouldn't be entitled to any specific considerations.
Or, apparently, the rights of appeal available to non-lunatics. ;)
Quote from: Malthus on February 07, 2014, 10:40:09 AM
Or, apparently, the rights of appeal available to non-lunatics. ;)
Ok. What's the usual mo in child's custody cases when the parents, with priors in similar cases, flee one province to another (or state, for the US) to interfere with social services actions? Give the benefit of the doubt to the parents or slamm them as hard as the law will allow?
Quote from: viper37 on February 07, 2014, 10:30:09 AM
Quote from: Siege on February 06, 2014, 09:50:28 PM
Anti-Semitism!!!!!!11111
I just don't like religious lunatics and fanatics. Christians, muslims or jews, they're all the same to me when they're crazy, and they shouldn't be entitled to any specific considerations.
What about crazy nationalists?
Quote from: viper37 on February 07, 2014, 11:22:13 AM
Quote from: Malthus on February 07, 2014, 10:40:09 AM
Or, apparently, the rights of appeal available to non-lunatics. ;)
Ok. What's the usual mo in child's custody cases when the parents, with priors in similar cases, flee one province to another (or state, for the US) to interfere with social services actions? Give the benefit of the doubt to the parents or slamm them as hard as the law will allow?
I have no idea, family law is not my thing.
Any evidence that granting a right of appeal is *not* normal in this situation?
Quote from: Malthus on February 07, 2014, 01:39:45 PM
I have no idea, family law is not my thing.
Any evidence that granting a right of appeal is *not* normal in this situation?
According to a lawyer (family and medical malpractice are her specialty) I met last summer, a Quebec judge would never grant child custody to a parent that tried to evade the law in the first place, appeal or no appeal, the children would be removed from these parent's care or placed under supervision.
The case of Myriam Bédard is slightly different since it involves one of the parent filing complaint for kidnapping, but it is revealing of the general attitude toward such parents: she was arrested in the US, her child put in the hands of social services in the US, then transferred to Canada to her father while Bédard was jailed, and later went to trial. She did not have unsupervised contact with her child after that.
Quote from: viper37 on February 07, 2014, 01:55:27 PM
Quote from: Malthus on February 07, 2014, 01:39:45 PM
I have no idea, family law is not my thing.
Any evidence that granting a right of appeal is *not* normal in this situation?
According to a lawyer (family and medical malpractice are her specialty) I met last summer, a Quebec judge would never grant child custody to a parent that tried to evade the law in the first place, appeal or no appeal, the children would be removed from these parent's care or placed under supervision.
The case of Myriam Bédard is slightly different since it involves one of the parent filing complaint for kidnapping, but it is revealing of the general attitude toward such parents: she was arrested in the US, her child put in the hands of social services in the US, then transferred to Canada to her father while Bédard was jailed, and later went to trial. She did not have unsupervised contact with her child after that.
Being granted custody is a whole different thing from being granted a right to appeal. These folks are claiming their move had nothing to do with an attempt to evade Quebec jurisdiction. Presumably, they have a right to assert that argument in court, no?
Quote from: Malthus on February 07, 2014, 03:01:52 PM
Being granted custody is a whole different thing from being granted a right to appeal. These folks are claiming their move had nothing to do with an attempt to evade Quebec jurisdiction. Presumably, they have a right to assert that argument in court, no?
I'm not denying their right to defend themselves, or their right to appeal.
I am denying their right to keep the children, as if nothing happenned, while they make their argument in court.
Everyone is entitled to a fair defense, religious nut or not. But if child services of one, heck, now even two, provinces, find sufficient evidences to remove some of the children from their parents, I don't see why the courts should let them keep their kids during the lenghty appeal process.
If they weren't part of a religious sect, I'm betting on the fact the tribunal would have removed the kids from unfit parents.
Quote from: viper37 on February 07, 2014, 03:32:51 PM
Quote from: Malthus on February 07, 2014, 03:01:52 PM
Being granted custody is a whole different thing from being granted a right to appeal. These folks are claiming their move had nothing to do with an attempt to evade Quebec jurisdiction. Presumably, they have a right to assert that argument in court, no?
I'm not denying their right to defend themselves, or their right to appeal.
I am denying their right to keep the children, as if nothing happenned, while they make their argument in court.
Everyone is entitled to a fair defense, religious nut or not. But if child services of one, heck, now even two, provinces, find sufficient evidences to remove some of the children from their parents, I don't see why the courts should let them keep their kids during the lenghty appeal process.
If they weren't part of a religious sect, I'm betting on the fact the tribunal would have removed the kids from unfit parents.
But you have exactly no evidence of that.
Your attempt to make a big deal of a routine stay pending appeal isn't creating much outrage. :yawn:
Quote from: Malthus on February 07, 2014, 03:41:16 PM
Your attempt to make a big deal of a routine stay pending appeal isn't creating much outrage. :yawn:
yet, you keep posting.
I'm concerned with Viper's hatred for law abiding citizens with religious beliefs.
Tolerance is supposed to work both way.
Quote from: viper37 on February 07, 2014, 10:28:37 AM
Quote from: The Minsky Moment on February 07, 2014, 02:47:04 AM
AFAIK governments can't remove children from parents without due process and proper proof, whether "crazy religious sects" are involved or not.
There has been due process. But you don't wait 10 years in appeal court to remove children from crazy religious sects.
To elaborate because you obviously didn't read the story and simply focus on the "jew" part which seemed to have shocked you: Quebec's child services were about to intervene, so the sect moved to Ontario during the night, before due process could happen.
No the "jew part" didn't shock me because I am not a narrow-minded ethnic chauvinist, so basically the case is no different to me than were Muslims or Christains or Wiccans involved.
What did get my attention is that aside from the lurid allegations of child marriage -- which apparently the Province has been running around seizing documents in an attempt to prove -- a lot of the claims seemed to be rather soft or somewhat subjective like "poor hygiene" , "skin problems" and poor "educational standards" (e.g. not teaching French or sex ed).
Now if the articles you cited contained any tangible evidence of abuse as opposed to mere allegation then I might have responded differently. Of course that fact that a duly constituted governmental authority was "about to intervene" might carry some quantum of weight. Then again, if that government authority is part of community that prejudges cases based on subjective appearance and considers basic concepts of the rule of law to be no more than a annoying inconvenience at best, perhaps not.
Quote from: The Minsky Moment on February 10, 2014, 10:47:25 AM
No the "jew part" didn't shock me because I am not a narrow-minded ethnic chauvinist, so basically the case is no different to me than were Muslims or Christains or Wiccans involved.
Good. I was wondering what happened to the old JR. Now, do you think I am a narrow-minded ethnic chauvinist? :)
Quote
What did get my attention is that aside from the lurid allegations of child marriage -- which apparently the Province has been running around seizing documents in an attempt to prove -- a lot of the claims seemed to be rather soft or somewhat subjective like "poor hygiene" , "skin problems" and poor "educational standards" (e.g. not teaching French or sex ed).
Do you know this history of this sect? Let's see some pieces made by narrow-minded ethnic chauvinists from Israel:
Haaretz, part 1: Pire as the driven snow, or hearts of darkness (http://www.haaretz.com/weekend/magazine/lev-tahor-pure-as-the-driven-snow-or-hearts-of-darkness-1.417553)
Haaretz, part 2: 'When you're on the path of truth, you don't care what others say' (http://www.haaretz.com/weekend/magazine/when-you-re-on-the-path-of-truth-you-don-t-care-what-others-say-1.419078)
Is Israel doing everything it can to help children of Jewish cult in Canada? (http://www.haaretz.com/news/national/1.560377)
Ontario raid (http://www.haaretz.com/jewish-world/jewish-world-news/1.571395)
QuoteA transcript of testimonies made by youth protection services in November reveals allegations that children were medicated with melatonin to control their behavior, and that they could be "in imminent psychological and physical danger," according to the CBC.
QuoteNow if the articles you cited contained any tangible evidence of abuse as opposed to mere allegation then I might have responded differently. Of course that fact that a duly constituted governmental authority was "about to intervene" might carry some quantum of weight. Then again, if that government authority is part of community that prejudges cases based on subjective appearance and considers basic concepts of the rule of law to be no more than a annoying inconvenience at best, perhaps not.
You mean a state like Israel who persecutes these members when they attempt to flee court orders? Shocking.
I'd say when family members raise concerns about the children's welfare, there is serious doubt. When child services uncover evidence of drugged children, there is more than serious doubt. When the sect decided to flee in the middle of the night right before the child services can intervene, we have a smoking gun.
I have yet to see evidence that the Quebec state is prejudiced against any particular religion. Do you have any evidence of some laws directed against a particular religious group? Mistreatment of a particular group by a government office or state society? Proof of any religious bias in how the state interacts with its citizens?
Or do you base your commentary about narrow-minded ethnic chauvinist soley because a jewish sect was targetted after multiple complaints from Israeli famly members, despite your previous statement to the effect that this group's religion had nothing to do with your statement?
Quote from: viper37 on February 10, 2014, 11:47:16 AM
Do you know this history of this sect? Let's see some pieces made by narrow-minded ethnic chauvinists from Israel:
No shortage of those types in Israel.
However, I grant you Haaretz is a pretty decent paper. let's see what they say:
QuoteHaaretz, part 1: Pire as the driven snow, or hearts of darkness (http://www.haaretz.com/weekend/magazine/lev-tahor-pure-as-the-driven-snow-or-hearts-of-darkness-1.417553)
+Lev Tahor has lots of enemies, apparently many within the broader Haredi community that have made harsh accusations.
+ they pray loudly and for a long time and their interpreation of kosher laws is very strict.
+ the are anti-zionist
+ they treat guests with traditional hospitality
+ Phys ed is de-emphasized and the kids are homeschooled
+ material things are not highly values and much modern technology is rejected
+ there have been accusations made of corporal punishment, but nothing proven nor any reliable testimony
+ Helbrans has been accused of kidnapping, and was once convicted on a conspiracy charge 20 year ago.
The conviction is quite troubling, but irrelevant to the Quebec allegations. Much of the rest of what is in here is not particularly shocking or exceptional.
QuoteIs Israel doing everything it can to help children of Jewish cult in Canada? (http://www.haaretz.com/news/national/1.560377)
More allegations from angry family members. I symphasize but courts exist to determine the truth, not accept claims without inquiry.
QuoteOntario raid (http://www.haaretz.com/jewish-world/jewish-world-news/1.571395)
QuoteA transcript of testimonies made by youth protection services in November reveals allegations that children were medicated with melatonin to control their behavior, and that they could be "in imminent psychological and physical danger," according to the CBC.
Seriously? In the US melatonin is a common dietary supplement. It can be used with children if a doctor gives the OK. If this is really illustrative of the most damaging proofs, it is pretty weak.
QuoteYou mean a state like Israel who persecutes these members when they attempt to flee court orders? Shocking.
I wouldn't expect the state of Israel to be particularly sympathetic to this group. On the contrary, I would expect this group to experience considerable hostility in Israel both from secular Jews who would view them as "Taliban" and orthodox/ultra-orthodox who would see them as heretics. You shouldn't assume that just because Israel does something, I would think it merits approval. That is almost as silly as assuming that everything Israel does must be wrong.
QuoteI have yet to see evidence that the Quebec state is prejudiced against any particular religion.
Nor have I. I have no reason to think the authorities in Quebec or elsewhere in Canada have acted improperly. On the contrary, I am defending those authorities to the extent they have acted in accordance to legal procedures that others find to be a hinderance of some kind.
Quote from: The Minsky Moment on February 10, 2014, 12:31:20 PM
More allegations from angry family members. I symphasize but courts exist to determine the truth, not accept claims without inquiry.
But you can't determine the truth through an inquiry when the sect flees to avoid such inquiry.
Quote
Seriously? In the US melatonin is a common dietary supplement. It can be used with children if a doctor gives the OK. If this is really illustrative of the most damaging proofs, it is pretty weak.
You can have morphine with doctor's prescription. Doesn't make it any less of a drug.
Quote
You shouldn't assume that just because Israel does something, I would think it merits approval. That is almost as silly as assuming that everything Israel does must be wrong.
No I don't, but it sheds doubt to your claim that the state of Quebec is bigoted and this inquiry into this sect's practices derives from such bigotry.
Quote
Nor have I. I have no reason to think the authorities in Quebec or elsewhere in Canada have acted improperly. On the contrary, I am defending those authorities to the extent they have acted in accordance to legal procedures that others find to be a hinderance of some kind.
Good. For once, we are in agreement.
Now, there's the deal of this group trying to avoid being subject to the law and how to treat them accordingly.
Quote from: viper37 on February 10, 2014, 01:25:25 PM
Quote
Seriously? In the US melatonin is a common dietary supplement. It can be used with children if a doctor gives the OK. If this is really illustrative of the most damaging proofs, it is pretty weak.
You can have morphine with doctor's prescription. Doesn't make it any less of a drug.
I knew it. :cry:
I've been abusing my kids for years, giving them vitamins and supplements like Vitamin C, Children's Daily, and *gasp*
melatonin. Damn the stores that sell that stuff to us! Damn them to hell and back! They said it was just to help them sleep, but now I know the truth.
Melatonin is nothing like morphine, as Meri's post indicates. There are no known safety issues and anyone can pick it up at a local convenience store. The packaging usually recommends doctor input but IIRC there is no legal requirement to do so.
The fact that this is being played up would tend to suggest weakness in the case, not strength.
Quote from: merithyn on February 10, 2014, 01:30:51 PM
Quote from: viper37 on February 10, 2014, 01:25:25 PM
Quote
Seriously? In the US melatonin is a common dietary supplement. It can be used with children if a doctor gives the OK. If this is really illustrative of the most damaging proofs, it is pretty weak.
You can have morphine with doctor's prescription. Doesn't make it any less of a drug.
I knew it. :cry:
I've been abusing my kids for years, giving them vitamins and supplements like Vitamin C, Children's Daily, and *gasp* melatonin. Damn the stores that sell that stuff to us! Damn them to hell and back! They said it was just to help them sleep, but now I know the truth.
You give your children Taliban approved drugs, but refuse to vaccinate them.
You truly are a monster!
Quote from: merithyn on February 10, 2014, 01:30:51 PM
Quote from: viper37 on February 10, 2014, 01:25:25 PM
Quote
Seriously? In the US melatonin is a common dietary supplement. It can be used with children if a doctor gives the OK. If this is really illustrative of the most damaging proofs, it is pretty weak.
You can have morphine with doctor's prescription. Doesn't make it any less of a drug.
I knew it. :cry:
I've been abusing my kids for years, giving them vitamins and supplements like Vitamin C, Children's Daily, and *gasp* melatonin. Damn the stores that sell that stuff to us! Damn them to hell and back! They said it was just to help them sleep, but now I know the truth.
:lol:
Quote from: Berkut on February 10, 2014, 02:41:10 PM
Quote from: merithyn on February 10, 2014, 01:30:51 PM
I knew it. :cry:
I've been abusing my kids for years, giving them vitamins and supplements like Vitamin C, Children's Daily, and *gasp* melatonin. Damn the stores that sell that stuff to us! Damn them to hell and back! They said it was just to help them sleep, but now I know the truth.
You give your children Taliban approved drugs, but refuse to vaccinate them.
You truly are a monster!
My kids received all required vaccinations. Autism was invented after my kids were too old to catch it. :)
Plus, they got chickenpox the old fashioned way. They earned it. :contract:
Quote from: viper37 on February 10, 2014, 11:47:16 AM
Good. I was wondering what happened to the old JR. Now, do you think I am a narrow-minded ethnic chauvinist? :)
I think that's an accurate characterization.
Quote from: merithyn on February 10, 2014, 01:30:51 PM
Quote from: viper37 on February 10, 2014, 01:25:25 PM
Quote
Seriously? In the US melatonin is a common dietary supplement. It can be used with children if a doctor gives the OK. If this is really illustrative of the most damaging proofs, it is pretty weak.
You can have morphine with doctor's prescription. Doesn't make it any less of a drug.
I knew it. :cry:
I've been abusing my kids for years, giving them vitamins and supplements like Vitamin C, Children's Daily, and *gasp* melatonin. Damn the stores that sell that stuff to us! Damn them to hell and back! They said it was just to help them sleep, but now I know the truth.
Flintstones chewables addiction. 2 Barneys and they are hooked forever.
Quote from: Ed Anger on February 10, 2014, 04:45:37 PM
Flintstones chewables addiction. 2 Barneys and they are hooked forever.
:lol: Lola just recently figured out that Tommy gets two and she only gets one. Yea, more LatinaRedhead temper tantrums!
Quote from: derspiess on February 10, 2014, 04:51:56 PM
Quote from: Ed Anger on February 10, 2014, 04:45:37 PM
Flintstones chewables addiction. 2 Barneys and they are hooked forever.
:lol: Lola just recently figured out that Tommy gets two and she only gets one. Yea, more LatinaRedhead temper tantrums!
I'll pray for you.
Quote from: merithyn on February 10, 2014, 01:30:51 PM
Quote from: viper37 on February 10, 2014, 01:25:25 PM
Quote
Seriously? In the US melatonin is a common dietary supplement. It can be used with children if a doctor gives the OK. If this is really illustrative of the most damaging proofs, it is pretty weak.
You can have morphine with doctor's prescription. Doesn't make it any less of a drug.
I knew it. :cry:
I've been abusing my kids for years, giving them vitamins and supplements like Vitamin C, Children's Daily, and *gasp* melatonin. Damn the stores that sell that stuff to us! Damn them to hell and back! They said it was just to help them sleep, but now I know the truth.
what's wrong with eating fruits and vegetables?
Files to be released (http://windsor.ctvnews.ca/judge-orders-sealed-lev-tahor-files-be-released-1.1679665)
Quote from: The Minsky Moment on February 10, 2014, 12:31:20 PM
+Lev Tahor has lots of enemies, apparently many within the broader Haredi community that have made harsh accusations.
+ they pray loudly and for a long time and their interpreation of kosher laws is very strict.
+ the are anti-zionist
+ they treat guests with traditional hospitality
+ Phys ed is de-emphasized and the kids are homeschooled
+ material things are not highly values and much modern technology is rejected
+ there have been accusations made of corporal punishment, but nothing proven nor any reliable testimony
+ Helbrans has been accused of kidnapping, and was once convicted on a conspiracy charge 20 year ago.
The conviction is quite troubling, but irrelevant to the Quebec allegations. Much of the rest of what is in here is not particularly shocking or exceptional.
And now, they fled to Trinidad&Tobago. Must be because of the loud praying.