A pretty interesting article...
http://www.strategypage.com/htmw/htlead/articles/20131009.aspx (http://www.strategypage.com/htmw/htlead/articles/20131009.aspx)
What Difference a Century Makes
QuoteOctober 9, 2013: It's been nearly a century since World War I (1914-18) broke out and ushered in another dramatic shift in the way war was fought. This 20th century style included machine-guns, accurate long-range artillery, air support, new "dispersed" infantry tactics, armored vehicles, aircraft, chemical weapons, and, for the first time, more people killed in combat than by disease and other non-combat causes. At the same time combat casualties grew enormously, largely because so many additional, and very lethal, weapons became available.Over the last two decades there has been another transformation in ground combat.
Call it the age of heavy infantry or 21st century style. Heavy not just in weight carried into combat but in the enormous growth in the number of tools the infantry have at their disposal. Troops are frequently carrying 50 kg (110 pounds) or more. That means they cannot move as fast as less well equipped opponents, and when they try to they tire faster and get frustrated, and often injured (by the enemy or by the sheer physical stress of hustling with all that weight on them). Long term, troops are developing the kind of physical stress injuries athletes are prone to (eventually) when they overdo it.
This is all because working conditions for the infantry have changed considerably from the century old style that ushered in the 1900s. The biggest change is the equipment that must be carried. Until the 1980s, you could strip down (for actual fighting) to your helmet, weapon (assault rifle and knife), ammo (hanging from webbing on your chest, along with grenades), canteen, first aid kit (on your belt), and your combat uniform. Total load was 13-14 kg (about 30 pounds). You could move freely and quickly, and soldiers found that speed and agility was a lifesaver in combat. But now the minimum load carried is twice as much and, worse yet, more restrictive. Typical of the weight inflation is the new IFAK (Individual First Aid Kit). While packaged more ergonomically than earlier versions, the new IFAK, like those issued for most of the last decade, are heavier (.94 kg or over two pounds) and contain stuff that used to be carried only by medics. The medics now carry a lot of gear that only doctors used to have. All this saves lives but, according to the troops, it does so at a high cost. Currently, the lightest load carried, the "fighting load" for situations where the troops were sneaking up on the enemy and might be involved in hand-to-hand combat, is 28.6 kg (63 pounds). The "approach march load," for when infantry were moving up to a position where they would shed some weight to achieve their "fighting load," is 46 kg (102 pounds). The heaviest load, 60 kg (132 pounds), is the emergency approach march load, where troops had to move through terrain too difficult for vehicles. As in the past, the troops often ignored the rules and regulations and dumped gear so they could move or keep moving.
The extra gear has led to combat troops carrying more weight and having their movement increasingly restricted. The troops have complained about this because speed and maneuverability is a matter of life and death, as well as the difference between victory and defeat in tactical actions. While combat death rates are a third of what they were in Vietnam and World War II, the more heavily burdened troops are much less able to go after the enemy. Then again, with the larger number of guided missiles and bombs available the troops don't have to chase down their foe in order to kill them as frequently.
Over the last decade the weight situation has caused some dramatic changes in training. In Iraq troops found they were not in the best condition to run around with all that weight. Plus, the vest constricted movement and that took time to adjust to. Commanders complained about troops not being properly trained and that led to a series of changes in basic and unit training. The big change in basic was to condition troops to handle the heavier weights they would be carrying for extended periods of time. This was particularly critical for non-combat troops (especially those operating convoys) outside of camps (where you usually didn't have to wear armor and combat gear). New exercises were developed. Infantry troops got several months of additional training after basic and had plenty of opportunity to adjust to moving around wearing 30 kg or more of gear.
This trend towards heavy infantry began when more "essential" equipment was added in the late 1980s and early 1990s. The biggest, and heaviest, problem was with the body armor. Although the new armor offered better protection it was heavier and bulkier, thus inducing fatigue and hindering mobility. This often led to battlefield situations where a less tired, and more agile, infantryman could have avoided injury. Military and political leaders usually do not appreciate this angle. But the troops do, as it is a matter of life and death for them and they feel the weight all the time.
For the combat troops the most dramatic change in the last two decades has been the much reduced casualty rate. It's now a third of what it was during World War II and Vietnam. The trend towards fewer non-combat casualties also continues. Currently 21 percent of combat zone deaths are from non-combat causes, while in World War II that was 25 percent. Not only are far fewer "heavy infantry" being killed or wounded in combat but fewer and fewer of those who are wounded die. It's a continuing trend. Currently under 8 percent of the wounded die, compared to 11 percent in 2009. There are several reasons for more troops surviving battle wounds (and injuries from accidents). An obvious cause is body armor. Improvements over the past decade, in terms of design and bullet resistance, account for about 20 percent of the decline in casualties.
Another major factor is medical care, which has gotten much better and faster. Not only are procedures more effective but badly wounded soldiers get to the operating table more quickly. Medics now have capabilities that, during Vietnam, only surgeons possessed. Movement of casualties to an operating room is much faster now, partly because of better transportation, but also because of more efficient methods and operating rooms that are placed closer to the battlefield.
The enemy has been forced to respond and that has meant using weapons that cause fewer deaths. Explosions (like roadside bombs) are less likely to cause fatal wounds but are much easier for an enemy to employ. For example, currently 12.9 percent of bullet wounds are fatal, compared to 7.3 percent for bombs, and 3.5 percent for RPGs (and grenades in general). The enemy in Afghanistan prefers to use roadside bombs because U.S. troops are much superior in a gun battle. All this contributed to the changing of the ratio of wounded-to-killed, that was 6-to-1 in Vietnam, to 10-1 now.
In Vietnam bullets caused 38 percent of the deaths. In Iraq it was only 19 percent and 27 percent in Afghanistan. The Iraqis are notoriously bad shots, even though the urban battle space in Iraq was very similar to Vietnam. There is more of a tradition of marksmanship in Afghanistan, despite (or probably because of) the frequently longer distances involved. The superior body armor has made life much harder for enemy marksmen, as chest shots are now frequently useless and fatal head shots are very difficult.
In Vietnam 15.7 percent of U.S. combat deaths were caused by IEDs (Improvised Explosive Devices), while in Iraq and Afghanistan it peaked at about 60 percent and then declined. Casualties were avoided, or made less severe, with the development of special armored vehicles (MRAPs) that reduced the impact of the explosives. The roadside bomb is a much less effective weapon, a loser's weapon, because it kills more civilians than enemy troops and played a major role in turning the locals against the Iraqi terrorists and Afghan Taliban.
Aircraft related deaths (from crashes) were 14.6 percent of the combat fatalities in Vietnam, while it was only a few percent in Iraq and Afghanistan. The current helicopters were built with Vietnam experience in mind and are more resistant to damage and safer to crash land in. Ground vehicle related deaths were 2 percent in Vietnam but more than double that in Iraq and Afghanistan. Most of the ground vehicle deaths were non-combat related. That's because from World War II to the present, the U.S. armed forces put huge numbers of trucks and other vehicles on roads (often poorly maintained or shot up), at all hours, in all weather, and with drivers fighting fatigue. There being a war on, the vehicles often proceeded at unsafe speeds.
What made the experience so different today versus past wars? It was a combination of things. The most important difference is that the troops in Iraq and Afghanistan are fighting smarter. While the Vietnam era troops were representative of the general population, the post-Vietnam era army is all-volunteer and highly selective. The troops are smarter, healthier, and better educated than the general population. During the last three decades, new attitudes have developed throughout the army (which always got most of the draftees). The army, so to speak, has become more like the marines (which was always all-volunteer and more innovative as a result). This ability to quickly analyze and adapt gets recognized by military historians, and other armies, but not by the media. It also saves lives in combat.
This innovation has led to better training, tactics, and leadership. Smarter troops means smarter and more capable leaders, from the sergeants leading fire teams (five men) to the generals running the whole show. Smarter troops leads to tactics constantly adapting to changes on the battlefield. The better tactics, and smarter fighting, has been the biggest reason for the lower death rate.
Better weapons and equipment have made U.S. troops less vulnerable to attack. GPS guided weapons have made a huge difference. There are now GPS guided bombs, shells, and rockets. This enables troops to hit a target with the first shot and be closer to the explosion (the better to move right in and take care of armed enemy survivors). Another benefit is much fewer civilian casualties. In both Iraq and Vietnam, the enemy frequently used civilians as human shields, and the better trained American troops were able to cope with this in Iraq and Afghanistan.
And then there was night vision gear. This first appeared during Vietnam, but over four decades later the stuff has gotten better, lighter, and cheaper. Every soldier has night vision now, as do most combat vehicles. There are also better radios, better uniforms, and even better field rations. It all made a difference.
Then there was the Internet, which enabled the troops to get in touch with each other. This had a huge impact. Not just for the grunts but also for the NCOs and officers. Each community had different problems and solutions. With the Internet they could easily discuss the problems and quickly share the solutions. The troops did this by themselves, and it was up to the military to play catch up. Life-saving tips are passed around with unprecedented speed. This made a major difference in combat, where better tactics and techniques save lives.
Computers and video games had an impact as well. The draft ended about the same time that personal computers and video games began to show up. So there have been three decades of troops who grew up with both. It was the troops who led the effort to computerize many military activities and video games evolved into highly realistic training simulators. The automation eliminated a lot of drudge work, while the simulators got troops up to speed before they hit the combat zone. Computers also made possible doing things with information, especially about the enemy, that was not possible before. A lot of troops understand operations research and statistical analysis and they use it to good effect. Research has also shown that heavy use of video games trains the user to make decisions faster. That's a lifesaver in combat.
UAVs and Trackers took a lot of the fog out of war. For nearly a century the troops on the ground depended on someone in an airplane or helicopter to help them sort out who was where. In the last decade the guy in the air has been replaced by robots. UAVs, especially the hand held ones every infantry company has, now give the ground commander his own recon aircraft. He controls it and it works only for him. Combat commanders now have a top-down view of his troops and the enemy. This has made a huge difference, creating some fundamental changes in the way captains and colonels command their troops. For higher commanders, the GPS transponders, carried by most combat vehicles, provides a tracking system that shows a real-time picture, on a laptop screen, of where all your troops are. This takes a lot of uncertainty out of command.
Living conditions enabled troops in combat to be more alert and effective. Some civilians think air-conditioned sleeping quarters for combat troops, and lots of other goodies in base camps, is indulgent. It is anything but. Getting a good night's sleep can be a life-saver for combat soldiers and AC makes that possible. Showers, Internet links to home, and good chow do wonders for morale, especially for guys getting shot at every day. Good morale means a more alert, and capable, soldier. The combat units often go weeks, or months, without these amenities, but the knowledge that these goodies are there, and eventually to be enjoyed, takes some of the sting out of all the combat stress. The rate of combat fatigue in Iraq has been much lower than in Vietnam or any previous war.
The enemy in Iraq and Afghanistan was not as effective as the Vietnamese were. The Taliban are more effective than the Iraqis but not by much. All this is partly due to cultural factors, partly because in Vietnam the North Vietnamese were sending trained soldiers south. The North Vietnamese also had commandos ("sappers"), who, while small in number, caused a lot of anxiety, and casualties, among U.S. troops. The irregular (Viet Cong) troops in South Vietnam were largely gone after 1968 (as a result of the failed Tet Offensive), but even these fighters tended to be more deadly than the average Iraqi gunman or Afghan warrior. The Iraqi troops have had a dismal reputation for a long time but they can still be deadly. Just not as deadly as their Vietnamese counterparts. The lower fighting capability of the Iraqis saved a lot of American lives but got far more Iraqis (including civilians) killed. The Afghans have a more fearsome reputation, but in practice they are no match for professional infantry. And conventional wisdom to the contrary, they have been beaten many times in the past. They are blessed, after a fashion, to live in the place that is not worth conquering. So whoever defeats them, soon leaves.
Finally, there is the data advantage. The military (especially the army, which has collected, since Vietnam, massive amounts of information on how each soldier died) has detailed records of soldier and marine casualties. The army, in particular, collects and analyzes this data, and then passes on to the troops new tactics and techniques derived from this analysis. The army restricts access to the data, as it can provide the enemy with useful information on how effective they are. Some basic data is made public, but the details will be a locked up for decade or more. Studying this data is a full time job for many people in the military, and there is a constant stream of suggestions resulting from this analysis, and those suggestions often turn into yet another small decline in combat deaths.
The World War I soldier would recognize his World War II and Vietnam counterparts, but the 21st century version would appear quite different and that model is indeed a very different kind of fighter.
Damn straight. Power Armor would be awesome. :nerd:
I am, of course, VERY interested in the views of our actual US military members on this.
30+ kilos? That is a fucking lot to carry around for any distance.
Quote from: Berkut on October 10, 2013, 08:55:29 PM
I am, of course, VERY interested in the views of our actual US military members on this.
30+ kilos? That is a fucking lot to carry around for any distance.
In LRS units, where I spent a good bulk of my time, 80lbs was the lightest ruck. Heaviest was the RTO with HF Data burst or Tac sat at around 100lbs. That's not even counting in your Load Carrying Equipment or whatever they call it nowadays, and body armor. That is just ruck weight. It is also why we PT'd our asses off. You are not going to carry that weight on a 30 Km infil.
Of course we didnt fight under that. You cant and the rucks get dumped.
Siege would be able to get a good feel for what line straight leg infantry.
I'll see if I can find some actual photos of the 80's and 90's equipment. Maybe Siege can pop in with the newer shit.
Grumbler is going to post a picture of his burlap sack.
Quote from: Ed Anger on October 10, 2013, 09:18:58 PM
Grumbler is going to post a picture of his burlap sack.
I remember saying that Marius' Mules might have been carrying a bit too much...
Quote from: Ed Anger on October 10, 2013, 09:18:58 PM
Grumbler is going to post a picture of his burlap sack.
:D
Taken in the late 80's during some STABO. You can still see the LBE/LCE being used. The LBV or vest version was just starting to come into the system.
(https://scontent-b-ord.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-frc3/2828_1118529334642_325159_n.jpg)
I'm assuming grumbler carried what was more or less standard in his day: Cartridge box and sling, cap box, bayonet sabbard. A haversack with food, your standard salt pork and hardtack etc. Blanket roll, knapsack with tent equipment etc.
Here's a pic of the ALICE pack during some training in Wales. The whole system was called ALICE (All-purpose Lightweight Individual Carrying Equipment).
(https://scontent-a-ord.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash4/3722_1121298083859_7910899_n.jpg)
Quote from: 11B4V on October 10, 2013, 09:31:23 PM
Here's a pic of the ALICE pack during some training in Wales. The whole system was called ALICE (All-purpose Lightweight Individual Carrying Equipment).
(https://scontent-a-ord.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash4/3722_1121298083859_7910899_n.jpg)
Meri will be SO jealous, me not so, upland bogs. :hmm:
Kind of a crappy article. Reads like somebody's term paper.
Quote from: CountDeMoney on October 10, 2013, 09:50:05 PM
Kind of a crappy article. Reads like somebody's term paper.
They did kind of forget the green straggly stuff in Vietnam, a lot harder to hid in a sandpit.
Quote from: mongers on October 10, 2013, 09:53:18 PM
Quote from: CountDeMoney on October 10, 2013, 09:50:05 PM
Kind of a crappy article. Reads like somebody's term paper.
They did kind of forget the green straggly stuff in Vietnam, a lot harder to hid in a sandpit.
????
Quote from: 11B4V on October 10, 2013, 09:55:00 PM
Quote from: mongers on October 10, 2013, 09:53:18 PM
Quote from: CountDeMoney on October 10, 2013, 09:50:05 PM
Kind of a crappy article. Reads like somebody's term paper.
They did kind of forget the green straggly stuff in Vietnam, a lot harder to hid in a sandpit.
????
Technical term for jungle.
But how does today's infantryman stack up to an SLBM? Not well? Oh.
Don't worry, DARPA's working on fixing this problem. ;)
http://www.nbcnews.com/technology/iron-man-suit-being-developed-us-army-8C11375650
I'm never sure if these threads are baiting me :hmm:
Yeah, it was odd CNN dug that up "Iron Man" story yesterday, nothing's really progressed since the programme was announced back in May.
Around the 80s, soldiers were complaining of the "Christmas tree effect", when new gadgets were dangled off them like baubles. Various international Future Solider programmes have sought to integrate them with standard kit (France's FELIN and Norway's NORMANS are not super high-tech but quite far advanced in their delivery), but the truth is the minute a single ounce is shaved off the overall weight, something new is added.
Exoskeletons like HUL, XOS and Hercule are reaching the stage when they are of practical use, but the truth is different types will be used for a single mission - moving heavy gear, traversing difficult terrain - by one individual then removed. They massively compromise motility and armour.
The US especially is interested in pack robots, automated donkeys that can act as a member of a patrol to carry all the extra gear, while automatically following a lead and avoiding obstacles.
But at the end of the day, talking to soldiers, they say any any new space found in their rucksacks will be filled with food and batteries.
At the blue sky thinking end, Boston Dynamics are an unstoppable force. Meet their latest protégé WildCat:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wE3fmFTtP9g (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wE3fmFTtP9g)
Quote from: Brazen on October 11, 2013, 04:46:29 AM
At the blue sky thinking end, Boston Dynamics are an unstoppable force. Meet their latest protégé WildCat:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wE3fmFTtP9g (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wE3fmFTtP9g)
Unless the term means something different in the UK, this isn't "blue sky thinking" at all, and, of course, naming something"Wildcat" simply shrieks "lack of originality." It is very nice engineering, but it is marching down a well-worn path.
Quote from: grumbler on October 11, 2013, 06:21:48 AM
Unless the term means something different in the UK, this isn't "blue sky thinking" at all, and, of course, naming something"Wildcat" simply shrieks "lack of originality." It is very nice engineering, but it is marching down a well-worn path.
Blue Sky thinking has nothing to do with originality, it means what could we do if we didn't have practicalities like cost and immediate utility to contend with. I think it's pretty bloody blue sky thinking that the military will ever have giant robot cats on the battlefield!
It's an untethered version of the same company's Cheetah robot, which sprints at 28.3mph, faster than Usain Bolt 's 20m split. I don't know about you, but I think that's pretty ground-breaking.
If not, here's Big Dog lobbing breeze blocks. Scares the willies out of me.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2jvLalY6ubc (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2jvLalY6ubc)
Or, if you want something practical, LS3 carrying 400lbs of load up a rugged mountain.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LJZQ3n-iQYE (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LJZQ3n-iQYE)
Boston Dynamics win at robots.
Quote from: Brazen on October 11, 2013, 07:10:03 AM
Blue Sky thinking has nothing to do with originality, it means what could we do if we didn't have practicalities like cost and immediate utility to contend with. I think it's pretty bloody blue sky thinking that the military will ever have giant robot cats on the battlefield!
There is difference then. In the US, "gblue sky" thinking is thinking not bounded by what exists, or is planned, or by what resources are currently available. It is thinking about problems from an original viewpoint. Making the impractical practical is not "blue sky."
QuoteIt's an untethered version of the same company's Cheetah robot, which sprints at 28.3mph, faster than Usain Bolt 's 20m split. I don't know about you, but I think that's pretty ground-breaking.
If not, here's Big Dog lobbing breeze blocks. Scares the willies out of me.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2jvLalY6ubc (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2jvLalY6ubc)
Or, if you want something practical, LS3 carrying 400lbs of load up a rugged mountain.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LJZQ3n-iQYE (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LJZQ3n-iQYE)
Boston Dynamics win at robots.
Yes, they have some good engineers, as I said. Engineering is pretty much the opposite of blue sky thinking in US terms, though.
Blue sky thinking in this context might involve, say, hypothesizing how each existing piece of kit could be useful in movement and then converted somehow to be useful in combat; maybe your rucksack could be turned into an assault rifle.
Yay a discussion what blue sky thinking could mean.
That's Mr. Blue Sky if you're nasty.
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimages4.mtv.com%2Furi%2Fmgid%3Auma%3Acontent%3Amtv.com%3A1621389%3Fwidth%3D281%26amp%3Bheight%3D211&hash=2de5b5f71d32335a50d7098224843bc6956d4110)
Grumbler on left, B on the right.
B: And look at this cool th...
G: Yo, Imma let you finish but first I want to harp on word choice.
This is an interesting article.
Quote from: garbon on October 11, 2013, 08:01:18 AM
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimages4.mtv.com%2Furi%2Fmgid%3Auma%3Acontent%3Amtv.com%3A1621389%3Fwidth%3D281%26amp%3Bheight%3D211&hash=2de5b5f71d32335a50d7098224843bc6956d4110)
Grumbler on left, B on the right.
B: And look at this cool th...
G: Yo, Imma let you finish but first I want to harp on word choice.
^_^
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimages4.mtv.com%2Furi%2Fmgid%3Auma%3Acontent%3Amtv.com%3A1621389%3Fwidth%3D281%26amp%3Bheight%3D211&hash=2de5b5f71d32335a50d7098224843bc6956d4110)
B on the right, garbon on the left
B: And look at this cool th...
Garbo [interrupting] You haven't said a word about me yet.
Quote from: Brazen on October 11, 2013, 04:46:29 AM
The US especially is interested in pack robots, automated donkeys that can act as a member of a patrol to carry all the extra gear, while automatically following a lead and avoiding obstacles.
What is their advantage over, you know, actual donkeys?
Quote from: Iormlund on October 11, 2013, 01:58:18 PM
Quote from: Brazen on October 11, 2013, 04:46:29 AM
The US especially is interested in pack robots, automated donkeys that can act as a member of a patrol to carry all the extra gear, while automatically following a lead and avoiding obstacles.
What is their advantage over, you know, actual donkeys?
Probably feed and less health or injury issues.
Quote from: Iormlund on October 11, 2013, 01:58:18 PM
Quote from: Brazen on October 11, 2013, 04:46:29 AM
The US especially is interested in pack robots, automated donkeys that can act as a member of a patrol to carry all the extra gear, while automatically following a lead and avoiding obstacles.
What is their advantage over, you know, actual donkeys?
Donkeys are cheaper which means they don't generate as much pork.
Quote from: 11B4V on October 10, 2013, 09:09:10 PM
Quote from: Berkut on October 10, 2013, 08:55:29 PM
I am, of course, VERY interested in the views of our actual US military members on this.
30+ kilos? That is a fucking lot to carry around for any distance.
In LRS units, where I spent a good bulk of my time, 80lbs was the lightest ruck. Heaviest was the RTO with HF Data burst or Tac sat at around 100lbs. That's not even counting in your Load Carrying Equipment or whatever they call it nowadays, and body armor. That is just ruck weight. It is also why we PT'd our asses off. You are not going to carry that weight on a 30 Km infil.
Of course we didnt fight under that. You cant and the rucks get dumped.
Siege would be able to get a good feel for what line straight leg infantry.
That's more than we normally carry. When I weighted myself mission ready I was usually 100 lbs over my body weight. That would make my ruck about 55 lbs. Of course, we quick-release the rucks before engaging. For short patrols, within the 8 km of our combat outpost mortar support fire, we just take assault packs instead of rucks, with about half the weight, mostly juice and dope (water and ammo). For stay-over missions we had to take the damn rucks.
Back in the 90s when I was in the NG infantry, we were mech, so we never really carried much of anything. Just weapon, ammo, water, some food. No body armor, and we had the LBEs.
We would be useless trying to carry around all the shit you guys hump today.
Quote from: jimmy olsen on October 11, 2013, 12:31:46 AM
Don't worry, DARPA's working on fixing this problem. ;)
http://www.nbcnews.com/technology/iron-man-suit-being-developed-us-army-8C11375650
QuoteTactical Assault Light Operator Suit, or TALOS,
OK, that's a good name.
But will it permit a single infantryman to kill upwards of 1.5 million people at a time? No? Does he provide both first and second strike capabilities? Why are we funding this research?
The Captain Jewmerica program will let a single soldier kill around 2-3 million at a time.
Regularly carrying 100 pounds or more over body weight strikes me as something only possible with a small, all-volunteer army of specially selected men.
From the article:
Quote
There is more of a tradition of marksmanship in Afghanistan, despite (or probably because of) the frequently longer distances involved.
I don't know where they got this from.
I did not see any Afghan advantage in marksmanship over the Iraqis. They both missed consistently.
Said that, afghans were definitively better organized and led. They fight as a unit.
But then, I got late to Afghanistan. Maybe all these mythical marksmen were already dead when I got there.
I don't know how those/you guys manage that, the most I ever did was 20 kg up to about 30 miles a day; the weight of your bergens is mind-boggling. :huh:
Quote from: Siege on October 11, 2013, 02:14:07 PM
Quote from: 11B4V on October 10, 2013, 09:09:10 PM
Quote from: Berkut on October 10, 2013, 08:55:29 PM
I am, of course, VERY interested in the views of our actual US military members on this.
30+ kilos? That is a fucking lot to carry around for any distance.
In LRS units, where I spent a good bulk of my time, 80lbs was the lightest ruck. Heaviest was the RTO with HF Data burst or Tac sat at around 100lbs. That's not even counting in your Load Carrying Equipment or whatever they call it nowadays, and body armor. That is just ruck weight. It is also why we PT'd our asses off. You are not going to carry that weight on a 30 Km infil.
Of course we didnt fight under that. You cant and the rucks get dumped.
Siege would be able to get a good feel for what line straight leg infantry.
That's more than we normally carry. When I weighted myself mission ready I was usually 100 lbs over my body weight. That would make my ruck about 55 lbs. Of course, we quick-release the rucks before engaging. For short patrols, within the 8 km of our combat outpost mortar support fire, we just take assault packs instead of rucks, with about half the weight, mostly juice and dope (water and ammo). For stay-over missions we had to take the damn rucks.
Well said.
I think the misconception, to the lay person, is that we fight with a 50-60lbs ruck on our backs, which just isnt true.
QuoteThe superior body armor has made life much harder for enemy marksmen, as chest shots are now frequently useless and fatal head shots are very difficult.
Our body armor stops 7.62x39, but 7.62x54, the round fired by the PK machine guns and SVD sniper rifles go right through.
And the Taliban got shitloads of PKs. I've never encountered a Taliban or Haqqani section without at least one PK.
They suck at shooting, but if they get lucky and shoot you in your chest with a 7.62x54, you are done.
And yes, we call them sections not only because they are usually larger than squad size elements, but because of the diverse weapon systems they normally carry and how they are divided in teams (long range rocket team, RPG team, machinegun team, suicide vest bomber team, etc)
Quotecomputerize many military activities and video games evolved into highly realistic training simulators. The automation eliminated a lot of drudge work, while the simulators got troops up to speed before they hit the combat zone.
I'm afraid simulations remains a very tiny little small part of our training.
Simulations are getting better, but they still got ways to go.
In the infantry, we prefer a LFX, live fire exercise, with fire and maneuver, pop-up targets, smoke and pyro explosions, and pneumatic guns simulating enemy fire. You get the sweat, the smell, and a little bit of the danger and chaos. After all, even though the "enemy" is not shooting real bullets at us, we are shooting real bullets at the pop-up targets, while running and maneuvering, and if someone moves into somebody elses sector of fire, shit can go very wrong.
QuoteUAVs, especially the hand held ones every infantry company has, now give the ground commander his own recon aircraft. He controls it and it works only for him.
Yeah, but friggin battalion HQ can still link up to our UAV feed and see what we are doing.
I had the Battalion's Command Sergeant Major, 20 miles away at the main FOB (Forward Operations Base), calling my Company First Sergeant at our COP (combat outpost), bitching that my soldiers were out of uniform in patrols because we were rolling our sleeves up to the elbows.
QuoteLiving conditions enabled troops in combat to be more alert and effective. Some civilians think air-conditioned sleeping quarters for combat troops, and lots of other goodies in base camps, is indulgent. It is anything but. Getting a good night's sleep can be a life-saver for combat soldiers and AC makes that possible. Showers, Internet links to home, and good chow do wonders for morale, especially for guys getting shot at every day. Good morale means a more alert, and capable, soldier. The combat units often go weeks, or months, without these amenities, but the knowledge that these goodies are there, and eventually to be enjoyed, takes some of the sting out of all the combat stress. The rate of combat fatigue in Iraq has been much lower than in Vietnam or any previous war.
This is right on the money. Couldn't agree more.
Quote from: Siege on October 11, 2013, 03:50:37 PM
QuoteUAVs, especially the hand held ones every infantry company has, now give the ground commander his own recon aircraft. He controls it and it works only for him.
Yeah, but friggin battalion HQ can still link up to our UAV feed and see what we are doing.
I had the Battalion's Command Sergeant Major, 20 miles away at the main FOB (Forward Operations Base), calling my Company First Sergeant at our COP (combat outpost), bitching that my soldiers were out of uniform in patrols because we were rolling our sleeves up to the elbows.
LOL
Quote from: Siege on October 11, 2013, 03:50:37 PM
QuoteUAVs, especially the hand held ones every infantry company has, now give the ground commander his own recon aircraft. He controls it and it works only for him.
Yeah, but friggin battalion HQ can still link up to our UAV feed and see what we are doing.
I had the Battalion's Command Sergeant Major, 20 miles away at the main FOB (Forward Operations Base), calling my Company First Sergeant at our COP (combat outpost), bitching that my soldiers were out of uniform in patrols because we were rolling our sleeves up to the elbows.
It's difficult to win the Hearts and Minds(tm) if you look like a slob.
It's always a good idea to keep a close eye on him when patrols near a well.
Quote from: Berkut on October 10, 2013, 08:55:29 PM
I am, of course, VERY interested in the views of our actual US military members on this.
30+ kilos? That is a fucking lot to carry around for any distance.
I was a Saw gunner carrying the m249, I was plus 115 lbs when I was full combat load and this was often for 16-18 hours for a good 2 months of it. This was running and bounding down alleyways while getting shot at. My back is pretty fucked, hurts all the time to be honest. And By the end of those two heavy months I couldn't kneel for more than a minute straight on either knee without it hurting like hell and my knees would swell immensely.
I'm a shorter guy, though. My normal weight is about 160ish and I dropped down to 145 during that period because of the long days, no sleep, 120 degrees out and we had shit to eat on our COP. So carrying 115 lbs when I was down to 145 lbs probably wasn't the best.
Don't worry, my medic would always give me motrin go 'cure' my ailments :lol:
Quote from: Alcibiades on October 13, 2013, 01:40:59 PM
Quote from: Berkut on October 10, 2013, 08:55:29 PM
I am, of course, VERY interested in the views of our actual US military members on this.
30+ kilos? That is a fucking lot to carry around for any distance.
I was a Saw gunner carrying the m249, I was plus 115 lbs when I was full combat load and this was often for 16-18 hours for a good 2 months of it. This was running and bounding down alleyways while getting shot at. My back is pretty fucked, hurts all the time to be honest. And By the end of those two heavy months I couldn't kneel for more than a minute straight on either knee without it hurting like hell and my knees would swell immensely.
I'm a shorter guy, though. My normal weight is about 160ish and I dropped down to 145 during that period because of the long days, no sleep, 120 degrees out and we had shit to eat on our COP. So carrying 115 lbs when I was down to 145 lbs probably wasn't the best.
Don't worry, my medic would always give me motrin go 'cure' my ailments :lol:
:(
That's insane short-sightedness from the military establishment.
I was taught to not carry more than 25% of you body weight on you back/in your bergen, for extended periods (say all day) !
Quote from: 11B4V on October 10, 2013, 09:15:49 PM
I'll see if I can find some actual photos of the 80's and 90's equipment. Maybe Siege can pop in with the newer shit.
This was my every day load of about 110 lbs when I was over there from Dec 2007- Feb 2009.
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fgyazo.com%2F01b188699014d3228fe4705ce363285a.png&hash=5d1a48ba6b71951525f7682e9e68cd34702b117a)
The body armor and plates is about 65lbs, my saw was 27.5lbs with a full drum of ammo( in our customized ones i was able to stuff in about 230 rounds into the drum), 3 spare 200 round drums of 5.56 was around 8-9lbs. Then you're wearing a camelback with water which is a few pounds, night vision/rhino mount is a few pounds, helmet is around 7 pounds or so. Batteries, food, extras. It just adds up.
For some reason I got to lug around the breaching equipment for our raids too, which was retarded, but that was an extra 25 pounds or so too.
Quote from: mongers on October 13, 2013, 01:49:28 PM
:(
That's insane short-sightedness from the military establishment.
I was taught to not carry more than 25% of you body weight on you back/in your bergen, for extended periods (say all day) !
Yeah, that's what I though of as well. It seems like carrying that stuff around is going to inflict permanent damage on soldiers.
Modern soldiers are raised on computer games where you lug around whole sacks of loot, tens of thousands of gold coins, about 200 potions etc etc... They don't understand that reality isn't like that.
Short dudes always haul the pig. Been that way since WW2 and water-cooled .30s.
I didn't mind the m249, loved it. Put 2800 rounds down range at hadj without a jam, was actually picked because I was the best shot in my squad believe it or not. :P
I didn't appreciate hauling around the breach kit as well.
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.cuttingedgetactical.com%2FProductImages%2Fcet%2FCET_MBK001_Backpack.jpg&hash=bfa71945357102f42cf79518ad96f36e0ad9fa2b)
Pfft, all we needed was a sledgehammer and a tire iron. And Section 8 doors were a lot tougher than those wood and thatch mud doors you hit :P
Section 8 doors? :wacko: :blink:
You can go fuck yourself in any section you want.
I carried a much heavier load in Haiti in '94 than in Afghanistan. I was with 3rd SFG and the Ranger Body armor with its Kevlar plates felt much heavier than the body armor in Afghanistan due to poor weight distribution. Not to mention you couldn't even go prone due to the back plate preventing you from raising your head because it would prevent you from raising your head (in Somalia we took the back plates out for that reason but we weren't permitted to do that in Haiti). Add to that your basic combat load and a ruck of 100 pounds and my weight of gear easily topped 150 pounds. Since my loudspeaker was integrated into my backpack I couldn't drop it off as soon as we hit the ground, so I had to carry it along while the SF guys only carried their assault packs.
I had back problems for a year after coming back from Haiti, while Afghanistan made my weak knee even worse. Probably time to retire, the Army already gave me a sweet retirement posting at Virginia Beach.
Quote from: Alcibiades on October 13, 2013, 01:52:55 PM
For some reason I got to lug around the breaching equipment for our raids too, which was retarded, but that was an extra 25 pounds or so too.
Awesome. :lol: Just in case.
Quote from: Hansmeister on October 17, 2013, 09:41:17 PM
I carried a much heavier load in Haiti in '94 than in Afghanistan. I was with 3rd SFG and the Ranger Body armor with its Kevlar plates felt much heavier than the body armor in Afghanistan due to poor weight distribution. Not to mention you couldn't even go prone due to the back plate preventing you from raising your head because it would prevent you from raising your head (in Somalia we took the back plates out for that reason but we weren't permitted to do that in Haiti). Add to that your basic combat load and a ruck of 100 pounds and my weight of gear easily topped 150 pounds. Since my loudspeaker was integrated into my backpack I couldn't drop it off as soon as we hit the ground, so I had to carry it along while the SF guys only carried their assault packs.
I had back problems for a year after coming back from Haiti, while Afghanistan made my weak knee even worse. Probably time to retire, the Army already gave me a sweet retirement posting at Virginia Beach.
Did you blast: polka?
Quote from: Hansmeister on October 17, 2013, 09:41:17 PM
Probably time to retire, the Army already gave me a sweet retirement posting at Virginia Beach.
Virginia Beach? What are you going to do over there?
I need to find me something like this.
Quote from: The Brain on October 13, 2013, 03:51:46 PM
Section 8 doors? :wacko: :blink:
Section 8 is a welfare program for housing assistance for low incomes. Since it's almost universally the bad parts of town, units accepting Section 8 tend to have steel doors, steel frames, and multiple deadbolts or chain locks.
Quote from: DontSayBanana on October 23, 2013, 12:03:50 AM
Quote from: The Brain on October 13, 2013, 03:51:46 PM
Section 8 doors? :wacko: :blink:
Section 8 is a welfare program for housing assistance for low incomes. Since it's almost universally the bad parts of town, units accepting Section 8 tend to have steel doors, steel frames, and multiple deadbolts or chain locks.
They sound insane.
I don't know why they're particularly singling out the first aid kit. A 1kg first aid kit is hardly too heavy and is very very useful.
Quote from: Tyr on October 23, 2013, 01:58:58 AM
I don't know why they're particularly singling out the first aid kit. A 1kg first aid kit is hardly too heavy and is very very useful.
It's just one of the pieces that is ostensibly useful but adds dead weight. The author comes across as for the advancements in the gear, but against their weight- the article does point out that survivability is way up in modern soldiers, but at the cost of common athletic injuries.