Obit here: http://news.yahoo.com/legendary-vietnam-gen-vo-nguyen-giap-dies-132952927.html
:blink:
Wow, he was still alive?
R.I.P., worthy adversary. :)
Also amazed he was still kicking about. One tough mofo.
About time.
WE WIN!!!!!!!!!
But seriously, he was an interesting fella (if maybe slightly overrated in some circles) and IIRC was actually one of the more moderate figures in North Vietnamese leadership that favored political rather than military means of unifying the country.
Still, kind of irritates me that these two guys gave us so much trouble:
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fupload.wikimedia.org%2Fwikipedia%2Fcommons%2F6%2F6e%2FGiap-Ho.jpg&hash=20fa83a388918a9df8e8211aa706892a9ccf06d5)
*shrug* I have the same sort of respect for him that I have for folks like Rommel who opposed us, but did so with great skill and determination.
I'm just saying they don't look like particularly menacing dudes in that pic. Giap with his little white suite & short tie, and Ho with his casual summer weekend shorts & sandals.
Quote from: derspiess on October 04, 2013, 11:52:12 AM
I'm just saying they don't look like particularly menacing dudes in that pic. Giap with his little white suite & short tie, and Ho with his casual summer weekend shorts & sandals.
Low tech will always match up well against high tech when it comes to warfare.
Quote from: derspiess on October 04, 2013, 11:52:12 AM
I'm just saying they don't look like particularly menacing dudes in that pic. Giap with his little white suite & short tie, and Ho with his casual summer weekend shorts & sandals.
Oh, I see. :)
RIP Augusto. :(
Quote from: derspiess on October 04, 2013, 11:52:12 AM
I'm just saying they don't look like particularly menacing dudes in that pic. Giap with his little white suite & short tie, and Ho with his casual summer weekend shorts & sandals.
We got our asses kicked by a nation of houseboys.
Quote from: CountDeMoney on October 04, 2013, 11:53:36 AM
Quote from: derspiess on October 04, 2013, 11:52:12 AM
I'm just saying they don't look like particularly menacing dudes in that pic. Giap with his little white suite & short tie, and Ho with his casual summer weekend shorts & sandals.
Low tech will always match up well against high tech when it comes to warfare.
Yeah, the Japanese matched up so well against high tech that they surrendered before anyone even set a boot on the home islands.
Quote from: Ideologue on October 04, 2013, 06:05:20 PM
Quote from: CountDeMoney on October 04, 2013, 11:53:36 AM
Quote from: derspiess on October 04, 2013, 11:52:12 AM
I'm just saying they don't look like particularly menacing dudes in that pic. Giap with his little white suite & short tie, and Ho with his casual summer weekend shorts & sandals.
Low tech will always match up well against high tech when it comes to warfare.
Yeah, the Japanese matched up so well against high tech that they surrendered before anyone even set a boot on the home islands.
Imperial Japan wasn't exactly low tech. Stop watching samurai flicks.
Ours was higher. We had level 9 tech teams.
Quote from: Admiral Yi on October 04, 2013, 06:02:49 PM
We got our asses kicked by a nation of houseboys.
Did you ever live down the shame, or are you guys still hanging your heads?
RiP
I wonder what lessons, if any, did the American military establishment draw from his generalship and writings ?
Other than the wider, avoid counter-insurgency operations on the Asian mainland.
Quote from: mongers on October 05, 2013, 06:20:16 PM
I wonder what lessons, if any, did the American military establishment draw from his generalship and writings ?
Other than the wider, avoid counter-insurgency operations on the Asian mainland.
I'm sure in your mind, never enough. He was the penultimate military genius & whatnot.
Quote from: mongers on October 05, 2013, 06:20:16 PM
I wonder what lessons, if any, did the American military establishment draw from his generalship and writings ?
The US military tends to draw its lessons from its own leadership's experiences more than the enemy's.
Quote from: CountDeMoney on October 05, 2013, 08:00:28 PM
Quote from: mongers on October 05, 2013, 06:20:16 PM
I wonder what lessons, if any, did the American military establishment draw from his generalship and writings ?
The US military tends to draw its lessons from its own leadership's experiences more than the enemy's.
I think Derspiess is at this very moment planning the beginnings of the Teaparty insurgency.
This thread reminded me i need to get The Last Valley off my amazon wish list. ;)
Quote from: derspiess on October 05, 2013, 07:49:49 PM
I'm sure in your mind, never enough. He was the penultimate military genius & whatnot.
Who was the ultimate? :o
He's an interesting figure. I imagine he's pretty important in terms of theory.
Quote from: mongers on October 05, 2013, 08:07:30 PM
I think Derspiess is at this very moment planning the beginnings of the Teaparty insurgency.
I think derspiess doesn't know what "penultimate" means, other than turning the "ultimate" dial to 11.
Quote from: 11B4V on October 05, 2013, 08:09:19 PM
This thread reminded me i need to get The Last Valley off my amazon wish list. ;)
I've got it, unread sitting about 8 feet from me, is it really not worth reading?
Quote from: mongers on October 05, 2013, 08:11:43 PM
Quote from: 11B4V on October 05, 2013, 08:09:19 PM
This thread reminded me i need to get The Last Valley off my amazon wish list. ;)
I've got it, unread sitting about 8 feet from me, is it really not worth reading?
Dont know, but I will be finding out. Probably order it next week. I have a gun show to go to tomorrow. Got to find more powder.
Quote from: 11B4V on October 05, 2013, 08:13:31 PM
Quote from: mongers on October 05, 2013, 08:11:43 PM
Quote from: 11B4V on October 05, 2013, 08:09:19 PM
This thread reminded me i need to get The Last Valley off my amazon wish list. ;)
I've got it, unread sitting about 8 feet from me, is it really not worth reading?
Dont know, but I will be finding out. Probably order it next week. I have a gun show to go to tomorrow. Got to find more powder.
Cheers, I thought you meant taking it off your wish list, rather than removing it to put it in 'the basket'.
Don't be like Woody Allen and sneeze it all over the room. So uncool.
Quote from: mongers on October 05, 2013, 08:15:36 PM
Quote from: 11B4V on October 05, 2013, 08:13:31 PM
Quote from: mongers on October 05, 2013, 08:11:43 PM
Quote from: 11B4V on October 05, 2013, 08:09:19 PM
This thread reminded me i need to get The Last Valley off my amazon wish list. ;)
I've got it, unread sitting about 8 feet from me, is it really not worth reading?
Dont know, but I will be finding out. Probably order it next week. I have a gun show to go to tomorrow. Got to find more powder.
Cheers, I thought you meant taking it off your wish list, rather than removing it to put it in 'the basket'.
Reviews say it's detailed, which suits me. 700+ pages isnt it?
Quote from: Sheilbh on October 05, 2013, 08:09:28 PM
He's an interesting figure. I imagine he's pretty important in terms of theory.
Was anything he did really new though? He seems to have cribbed most things from the Chinese.
Although Din Bin Foo is definitely interesting from an operational POV.
Quote from: CountDeMoney on October 05, 2013, 08:09:59 PM
Quote from: mongers on October 05, 2013, 08:07:30 PM
I think Derspiess is at this very moment planning the beginnings of the Teaparty insurgency.
I think derspiess doesn't know what "penultimate" means, other than turning the "ultimate" dial to 11.
Go fuck yourself, Tim.
Quote from: 11B4V on October 05, 2013, 08:16:42 PM
Quote from: mongers on October 05, 2013, 08:15:36 PM
Quote from: 11B4V on October 05, 2013, 08:13:31 PM
Quote from: mongers on October 05, 2013, 08:11:43 PM
Quote from: 11B4V on October 05, 2013, 08:09:19 PM
This thread reminded me i need to get The Last Valley off my amazon wish list. ;)
I've got it, unread sitting about 8 feet from me, is it really not worth reading?
Dont know, but I will be finding out. Probably order it next week. I have a gun show to go to tomorrow. Got to find more powder.
Cheers, I thought you meant taking it off your wish list, rather than removing it to put it in 'the basket'.
Reviews say it's detailed, which suits me. 700+ pages isnt it?
Heh, knew exactly where it was but couldn't see it, the books in that bookcase are hidden behind piles of maps. :rolleyes:
725pages, for what it's worth has blurb on the front from Max Hastings, but on the back Richard Holmes sings it's praises. :hmm:
Quote from: Admiral Yi on October 05, 2013, 08:17:20 PM
Although Din Bin Foo is definitely interesting from an operational POV.
Surround isolated enemy, apply pressure, disregard any losses from frontal assaults. Rinse, lather, repeat.
IMO DBP is more interesting than Khe Shan.
Quote from: 11B4V on October 05, 2013, 08:31:05 PM
IMO DBP is more interesting than Khe Shan.
Well, yeah. It worked.
Quote from: 11B4V on October 05, 2013, 08:31:05 PM
IMO DBP is more interesting than Khe Shan.
B-52's arc lighting the shit out of 2 NVA divisions less interesting?
COMMIE!
Quote from: Admiral Yi on October 05, 2013, 08:17:20 PMWas anything he did really new though? He seems to have cribbed most things from the Chinese.
Although Din Bin Foo is definitely interesting from an operational POV.
I don't know, all I know about him is from 'The Utility of Force' and I don't know much about Mao in the civil war or WW2. I think the argument for him is that he brought together different bits of theory and implemented them well. Maybe not a great tactician but one of the great strategists.
The thing that strikes me from the obituaries is that he was a huge fan of Napoleon and how many of his successes seem quite influenced by that. They depended on speed, logistics and density of force which all seem - to me - very Napoleonic virtues.
Edit: Here's an interesting, admiring piece:
smallwarsjournal.com/documents/wadsworth.pdf
Quote from: derspiess on October 05, 2013, 08:29:28 PM
Surround isolated enemy
...transport enough heavy weaponry to pulverize enemy fortifications, prevent resupply and reinforcement by air, plus ammuniton, plus food, all across trackless jungle, and far from sources of supply, without the enemy being aware.
Quote from: 11B4V on October 05, 2013, 08:31:05 PM
IMO DBP is more interesting than Khe Shan.
As a young child, I recall seeing black and white tv news reports perhaps about or from there, I can't be certain, but it's quite a vivid memory.
Quote from: Admiral Yi on October 05, 2013, 08:38:36 PM
Quote from: derspiess on October 05, 2013, 08:29:28 PM
Surround isolated enemy
...transport enough heavy weaponry to pulverize enemy fortifications, prevent resupply and reinforcement by air, plus ammuniton, plus food, all across trackless jungle, and far from sources of supply, without the enemy being aware.
All that was an accomplishment, save for the very last part. It was the French.
Quote from: derspiess on October 05, 2013, 08:46:37 PM
All that was an accomplishment, save for the very last part. It was the French.
:mad: Man you just totally went on my shitlist. MAY THE CARDS FOREVER LOSE IN FOUR.
I am going to call Art Briles and see if he can go for 100.
Quote from: Valmy on October 05, 2013, 08:54:25 PM
Quote from: derspiess on October 05, 2013, 08:46:37 PM
All that was an accomplishment, save for the very last part. It was the French.
:mad: Man you just totally went on my shitlist. MAY THE CARDS FOREVER LOSE IN FOUR.
You guys have the Legion, that counts for some cool points in my book.
The French were too arrogant, but then so were the Americans later on.
Quote from: Valmy on October 05, 2013, 08:54:25 PM
:mad: Man you just totally went on my shitlist. MAY THE CARDS FOREVER LOSE IN FOUR.
Wow, Valmy went all Murat on Spicey. A frontal assault that managed to destroy the baggage train too. Now I wonder if he can counter charge and get out of there.
Quote from: PDH on October 05, 2013, 08:59:53 PM
Quote from: Valmy on October 05, 2013, 08:54:25 PM
:mad: Man you just totally went on my shitlist. MAY THE CARDS FOREVER LOSE IN FOUR.
Wow, Valmy went all Murat on Spicey. A frontal assault that managed to destroy the baggage train too. Now I wonder if he can counter charge and get out of there.
I always fight with maximum elan! :frog:
Quote from: PDH on October 05, 2013, 08:59:53 PM
Quote from: Valmy on October 05, 2013, 08:54:25 PM
:mad: Man you just totally went on my shitlist. MAY THE CARDS FOREVER LOSE IN FOUR.
Wow, Valmy went all Murat on Spicey. A frontal assault that managed to destroy the baggage train too. Now I wonder if he can counter charge and get out of there.
He wore all his horses out.
He had magnificent fashion sense.
I like Jean Rapp better.
Funeral yesterday. They used a 105mm Howitzer instead of a hearse.
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fnews.bbcimg.co.uk%2Fmedia%2Fimages%2F70450000%2Fjpg%2F_70450139_70450108.jpg&hash=e1316ffcf572b3afcb163e29882ec1d9cc6f91ec)
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.dailymail.co.uk%2Fi%2Fpix%2F2013%2F10%2F13%2Farticle-2457487-18B5BF6600000578-742_634x339.jpg&hash=3ba13a539f97ce499ca58d05018c761278f664f4)
105? They had to use something they stole from our guys??
Stay classy, Ho Chi Minh City
Quote from: derspiess on October 14, 2013, 03:06:46 PM
105? They had to use something they stole from our guys??
Surely the Soviets supplied 105s, no?
And I'm pretty sure the US 105 doesn't have a built-in incense burner. :contract:
Soviets never used a 105mm howitzer.
No shit.
It wasn't a US 105mm, but a ww2 era howitzer, not doubt 11b4v will tell us exactly which model it is, video here:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-24512399 (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-24512399)
edit:
I think it was a M30 - 122 mm howitzer M1938
Quote from: mongers on October 14, 2013, 03:55:00 PM
It wasn't a US 105mm, but a ww2 era howitzer, not doubt 11b4v will tell us exactly which model it is, video here:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-24512399 (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-24512399)
The base gun is M30 or Chicom Type 54 122mm Howitzer. The Ho chi's added the other BS.
Quote from: Valmy on October 05, 2013, 08:54:25 PM
Quote from: derspiess on October 05, 2013, 08:46:37 PM
All that was an accomplishment, save for the very last part. It was the French.
:mad: Man you just totally went on my shitlist. MAY THE CARDS FOREVER LOSE IN FOUR.
I am going to call Art Briles and see if he can go for 100.
Now I regret rooting for Texas last week.