So the Syrian civil war has been going on for while now, so can we yet compare it to the Spanish Civil War ?
What are the similarities and differences, can the way the first was handled influence 'our' policy the current war ?
If there is some comparison, one problem I have is deciding who are the Fascists in Syria.
Maybe they all are, save for a small number of naive pro-democracy activists and of course probably the vast majority of the civilian population who just want peace ?
edit:
before the pedants get in, I was talking about Syria and Spain, not Syrian and Spanish.
No Condor. :(
Where is today's Guernica and Hemingway? :)
Quote from: Phillip V on September 13, 2013, 03:40:10 PM
Where is today's Guernica and Hemingway? :)
Plenty of Guernicas.
Biggest difference is that this one does not split the rest of the world into two competing ideological camps.
Biggest similarity is that both sides are unpleasant.
Quote from: Phillip V on September 13, 2013, 03:40:10 PM
Where is today's Guernica and Hemingway? :)
Haven't you been watching the coverage, there are now some pretty thoroughly flattened town in Syria. Not sure if any have been devastated in one go, but there do appear to have been plenty of bombing/artillery strikes that have killed around a hundred in one go.
God I hope you're talking about different Guernicas.
I think the analogies are fitting. Al Nusra is Condor, Jobar is Guernica, Allahu Ackbar You Tube vids are Hemingway.
Like Spain he had the west trying to limit the war and getting fascist and radical extremists to be reasonable. We decided to not act and let the war go on without us, while the evil scum supporting the bad guys on both sides had free reign to provide support and aid.
The Spain Paradigm is the one I hit on right from the start.
Quote from: Admiral Yi on September 13, 2013, 03:43:53 PM
Quote from: Phillip V on September 13, 2013, 03:40:10 PM
Where is today's Guernica and Hemingway? :)
Plenty of Guernicas.
Biggest difference is that this one does not split the rest of the world into two competing ideological camps.
Biggest similarity is that both sides are unpleasant.
I don't know, much of the 'West' appears fairly neutral to the conflict, as Britain and France were over Spain. And if there isn't a idealogical conflict over or within Syria, to compensate it's certainly has the elements of a a religious civil war.
edit:Could I get away with describing the Jihadists as the fascists and the Ba'thists as the socialist/communists in this situation ?
The proviso being at the moment the rump pro-democracy crowd are siding with the 'fascists' rather than with the socialist/communists as in the Spanish war.
Quote from: Viking on September 13, 2013, 03:48:02 PM
I think the analogies are fitting. Al Nusra is Condor, Jobar is Guernica, Allahu Ackbar You Tube vids are Hemingway.
Like Spain he had the west trying to limit the war and getting fascist and radical extremists to be reasonable. We decided to not act and let the war go on without us, while the evil scum supporting the bad guys on both sides had free reign to provide support and aid.
The Spain Paradigm is the one I hit on right from the start.
I don't disagree. Though I've been loath to make it, but as times gone on similarities have built.
Which begs the question, do we allow it to continue on a broadly similar arc, with one side eventually winning militarily with bloodshed ten or twenty times the current total ?
Me, I want to see an international peace conference, with all parties forcible brought to the table.
Quote from: mongers on September 13, 2013, 03:44:58 PM
Haven't you been watching the coverage, there are now some pretty thoroughly flattened town in Syria. Not sure if any have been devastated in one go, but there do appear to have been plenty of bombing/artillery strikes that have killed around a hundred in one go.
Someone needs to paint it.
Quote from: Phillip V on September 13, 2013, 03:55:20 PM
Quote from: mongers on September 13, 2013, 03:44:58 PM
Haven't you been watching the coverage, there are now some pretty thoroughly flattened town in Syria. Not sure if any have been devastated in one go, but there do appear to have been plenty of bombing/artillery strikes that have killed around a hundred in one go.
Someone needs to paint it.
You and probably many others, including myself, will hate this, but I think the modern equivalent is the youtube videos. :blush:
Quote from: mongers on September 13, 2013, 03:55:07 PM
Me, I want to see an international peace conference, with all parties forcible brought to the table.
:huh: How do you propose to do that? And what do you expect it to achieve?
Quote from: Admiral Yi on September 13, 2013, 04:02:35 PM
Quote from: mongers on September 13, 2013, 03:55:07 PM
Me, I want to see an international peace conference, with all parties forcible brought to the table.
:huh: How do you propose to do that? And what do you expect it to achieve?
Heck, do we even
know who all the parties are? I doubt it.
Quote from: Admiral Yi on September 13, 2013, 03:43:53 PM
Quote from: Phillip V on September 13, 2013, 03:40:10 PM
Where is today's Guernica and Hemingway? :)
Plenty of Guernicas.
Biggest difference is that this one does not split the rest of the world into two competing ideological camps.
Biggest similarity is that both sides are unpleasant.
I don't know, I do think we have a split developing. One side is for democracy, another side is for authoritarianism.
Quote from: Phillip V on September 13, 2013, 03:55:20 PM
Quote from: mongers on September 13, 2013, 03:44:58 PM
Haven't you been watching the coverage, there are now some pretty thoroughly flattened town in Syria. Not sure if any have been devastated in one go, but there do appear to have been plenty of bombing/artillery strikes that have killed around a hundred in one go.
Someone needs to paint it.
I agree, somebody needs to paint the targets with laser designators
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fblog.laserto.com%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2012%2F02%2Flaser-designator.jpg&hash=367a8b02f875de593db5b3e183669a54d4c0b20d)
Quote from: DGuller on September 13, 2013, 04:07:43 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on September 13, 2013, 03:43:53 PM
Quote from: Phillip V on September 13, 2013, 03:40:10 PM
Where is today's Guernica and Hemingway? :)
Plenty of Guernicas.
Biggest difference is that this one does not split the rest of the world into two competing ideological camps.
Biggest similarity is that both sides are unpleasant.
I don't know, I do think we have a split developing. One side is for democracy, another side is for authoritarianism.
No. Neither side is for democracy. There were democrats early on and we didn't help them, they got killed or sold their souls to the crazies. The same happened in spain, we didn't help the democrats and they got killed or compromised when the crazies helped got help from fascists and crazies.
The best chance to help has already passed, it passed some time ago, before Obama even used the words "Red Line" for the first time.
Quote from: Admiral Yi on September 13, 2013, 04:02:35 PM
Quote from: mongers on September 13, 2013, 03:55:07 PM
Me, I want to see an international peace conference, with all parties forcible brought to the table.
:huh: How do you propose to do that? And what do you expect it to achieve?
Hey Obama hasn't outlined his military strategy yet, so I get to keep my cards close to my chest (nothing to do with the chance that it's not fully thought out yet).
Peace.
Regardless of where you hold them, everyone can tell you've got 7-2 unsuited.
Quote from: Phillip V on September 13, 2013, 03:40:10 PM
Where is today's Guernica and Hemingway? :)
The Bombing of Guernica is a leftist myth. The National Review said so.
Quote from: Razgovory on September 13, 2013, 06:26:53 PM
Quote from: Phillip V on September 13, 2013, 03:40:10 PM
Where is today's Guernica and Hemingway? :)
The Bombing of Guernica is a leftist myth. The National Review said so.
:yeahright: Link me
Quote from: jimmy olsen on September 13, 2013, 07:05:09 PM
Quote from: Razgovory on September 13, 2013, 06:26:53 PM
Quote from: Phillip V on September 13, 2013, 03:40:10 PM
Where is today's Guernica and Hemingway? :)
The Bombing of Guernica is a leftist myth. The National Review said so.
:yeahright: Link me
http://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=1798&dat=19730117&id=lx8fAAAAIBAJ&sjid=J40EAAAAIBAJ&pg=5234,3618495 (http://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=1798&dat=19730117&id=lx8fAAAAIBAJ&sjid=J40EAAAAIBAJ&pg=5234,3618495) The author Jeffery Hart writes a similar article in this news paper and refers to how he brought up the subject in the National Review a little earlier. I do not have access to National Review archives, but his article on the 5th of January was called "The Great Guernica Fraud', so I imagine it was similar to this news paper article.
National Review was also in favor of segregation, but I'll let you find that one.
Recently I was wondering if the Syrian Civil War would make a better consim than the Libyan Civil War or vice versa. :hmm:
Quote from: Caliga on September 13, 2013, 07:54:04 PM
Recently I was wondering if the Syrian Civil War would make a better consim than the Libyan Civil War or vice versa. :hmm:
I'm not really sure what happened in Libya could be described as a civil war, both sides were so inept, it's a wonder they ever managed to find each other. I guess the long relative straight line in the desert helped a lot.
A large part of the significant military killing was actually carried out be NATO air resources.
I'd classify Libya as much close to the Cuban civil war than the growing bloodbath of Syria.
Quote from: mongers on September 13, 2013, 08:02:08 PM
I'm not really sure what happened in Libya could be described as a civil war, both sides were so inept, it's a wonder they ever managed to find each other.
That would make Libya almost perfectly analogous to the Spanish Civil War (if Orwell is anything to go by.)
Quote from: Savonarola on September 13, 2013, 08:05:00 PM
Quote from: mongers on September 13, 2013, 08:02:08 PM
I'm not really sure what happened in Libya could be described as a civil war, both sides were so inept, it's a wonder they ever managed to find each other.
That would make Libya almost perfectly analogous to the Spanish Civil War (if Orwell is anything to go by.)
Did you not see the coverage of the 'war' the Libyan rebels were staggeringly inept, save perhaps for those besieged in Misurata. NATO essentially one the war for them.
Quote from: mongers on September 13, 2013, 05:06:23 PM
Hey Obama hasn't outlined his military strategy yet, so I get to keep my cards close to my chest (nothing to do with the chance that it's not fully thought out yet).
Peace.
http://www.whitehouse.gov/sites/default/files/rss_viewer/national_security_strategy.pdf
Quote from: mongers on September 13, 2013, 03:36:27 PM
So the Syrian civil war has been going on for while now, so can we yet compare it to the Spanish Civil War ?
Honestly, I don't think it's that romantic.
Quote from: mongers on September 13, 2013, 08:12:01 PM
Quote from: Savonarola on September 13, 2013, 08:05:00 PM
That would make Libya almost perfectly analogous to the Spanish Civil War (if Orwell is anything to go by.)
Did you not see the coverage of the 'war' the Libyan rebels were staggeringly inept, save perhaps for those besieged in Misurata. NATO essentially one the war for them.
Yes, have you read "Homage to Catalonia?"
Quote from: Savonarola on September 13, 2013, 08:24:30 PM
Yes, have you read "Homage to Catalonia?"
Not enough unions.
Too many beaners in Spain.
Quote from: mongers on September 13, 2013, 08:12:01 PM
Quote from: Savonarola on September 13, 2013, 08:05:00 PM
Quote from: mongers on September 13, 2013, 08:02:08 PM
I'm not really sure what happened in Libya could be described as a civil war, both sides were so inept, it's a wonder they ever managed to find each other.
That would make Libya almost perfectly analogous to the Spanish Civil War (if Orwell is anything to go by.)
Did you not see the coverage of the 'war' the Libyan rebels were staggeringly inept, save perhaps for those besieged in Misurata. NATO essentially one the war for them.
The Spanish army was remarkably inept during the Spanish Civil War. The only good units were the colonial ones. The Moors and the Foreign Legion.
I can't figure out who are the good guys. So the analogy bears out at least that far.
Quote from: MadImmortalMan on September 13, 2013, 08:59:56 PM
I can't figure out who are the good guys. So the analogy bears out at least that far.
Really? You couldn't figure out who the good guys were in Spain?
Quote from: CountDeMoney on September 13, 2013, 09:01:11 PM
Quote from: MadImmortalMan on September 13, 2013, 08:59:56 PM
I can't figure out who are the good guys. So the analogy bears out at least that far.
Really? You couldn't figure out who the good guys were in Spain?
We'll never know unless Tim writes an alt-hist about what the republicans would have done in power. :P
Quote from: MadImmortalMan on September 13, 2013, 09:03:01 PM
Quote from: CountDeMoney on September 13, 2013, 09:01:11 PM
Quote from: MadImmortalMan on September 13, 2013, 08:59:56 PM
I can't figure out who are the good guys. So the analogy bears out at least that far.
Really? You couldn't figure out who the good guys were in Spain?
We'll never know unless Tim writes an alt-hist about what the republicans would have done in power. :P
Maybe they would have joined the Allies after Barbarossa...subsequently conquored by Germany, Gibralter also falls. Hitler's armies of darkness march all over the face of the earth.
Quote from: Tonitrus on September 13, 2013, 09:10:24 PM
Maybe they would have joined the Allies after Barbarossa...subsequently conquored by Germany, Gibralter also falls. Hitler's armies of darkness march all over the face of the earth.
Nonsense. They sit out the war, rebuilding their nation through progressive land reform, wealth redistribution and other wholly benevolent and morally righteous works.
So Tim, are you less skeptical about the National Review thing?
Quote from: Razgovory on September 13, 2013, 07:30:07 PM
http://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=1798&dat=19730117&id=lx8fAAAAIBAJ&sjid=J40EAAAAIBAJ&pg=5234,3618495 (http://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=1798&dat=19730117&id=lx8fAAAAIBAJ&sjid=J40EAAAAIBAJ&pg=5234,3618495) The author Jeffery Hart writes a similar article in this news paper and refers to how he brought up the subject in the National Review a little earlier. I do not have access to National Review archives, but his article on the 5th of January was called "The Great Guernica Fraud', so I imagine it was similar to this news paper article.
National Review was also in favor of segregation, but I'll let you find that one.
He argues that the bombing of Guernica was militarily justified. That's different from what you implied.
Quote from: jimmy olsen on September 13, 2013, 11:30:01 PM
Quote from: Razgovory on September 13, 2013, 07:30:07 PM
http://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=1798&dat=19730117&id=lx8fAAAAIBAJ&sjid=J40EAAAAIBAJ&pg=5234,3618495 (http://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=1798&dat=19730117&id=lx8fAAAAIBAJ&sjid=J40EAAAAIBAJ&pg=5234,3618495) The author Jeffery Hart writes a similar article in this news paper and refers to how he brought up the subject in the National Review a little earlier. I do not have access to National Review archives, but his article on the 5th of January was called "The Great Guernica Fraud', so I imagine it was similar to this news paper article.
National Review was also in favor of segregation, but I'll let you find that one.
He argues that the bombing of Guernica was militarily justified. That's different from what you implied.
Try again. He's saying that Nationalists only bombed the outskirts hitting the rails and road junctions, and the city was actually destroyed by the evil republicans for propaganda.
Quote from: CountDeMoney on September 13, 2013, 09:01:11 PM
Quote from: MadImmortalMan on September 13, 2013, 08:59:56 PM
I can't figure out who are the good guys. So the analogy bears out at least that far.
Really? You couldn't figure out who the good guys were in Spain?
Franco. :)
Speaking of fruits, Seefor got on my case once for me mentioning a wargame called Arriba Espana! He was in one of his leftist phases.
Another point of similarity are the international brigades. just like in the thirties people leave Belgium to fight in Syria, even schoolkids.
Quote from: CountDeMoney on September 13, 2013, 09:01:11 PM
Quote from: MadImmortalMan on September 13, 2013, 08:59:56 PM
I can't figure out who are the good guys. So the analogy bears out at least that far.
Really? You couldn't figure out who the good guys were in Spain?
The ones who died first.
And let's face it, given your devotion to the Catholic Church, you'd have been on the Nationalist side. Heck, had you grown up in that era, you might have been one of the priests giving absolution to the Moorish troops.
Quote from: dps on September 14, 2013, 05:52:16 PM
And let's face it, given your devotion to the Catholic Church, you'd have been on the Nationalist side. Heck, had you grown up in that era, you might have been one of the priests giving absolution to the Moorish troops.
Yes, my devotion to the Church must explain my wife and all these kids. :P