... or so it's claimed.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2397527/Bank-America-Merrill-Lynch-intern-Moritz-Erhardt-dead-working-long-hours.html
QuoteInvestment bank intern, 21, on £45,000 worked 'until 6am for three nights in a row' before he was found dead in his London flat
- Moritz Erhardt had been interning with investment bank Merrill Lynch
- Erhardt, from Germany and understood to have been studying at the University of Michigan, was found dead in his East London flat last week
- 21-year-old had 'pulled all-nighters' during his summer internship
- Summer interns are paid £45,000 a year pro rata for their work
A young student has died in mysterious circumstances while employed as an intern at a top investment bank – amid claims he was asked to work punishingly long hours.
The body of Moritz Erhardt was discovered on Thursday evening as he neared the end of a seven-week internship with the Bank of America Merrill Lynch's investment bank division.
The 21-year-old – understood to be from Germany but studying at the University of Michigan – had joined Merrill Lynch earlier in the summer hoping to forge a career with the firm.
Paid interns at the bank normally earn £45,000 a year pro rata - around £2,700 a month.
Yesterday it was claimed Mr Erhardt may have suffered a fit or seizure. However internet forum users said he may have been working 'all-nighters' during his stay with the company.
Many banks are known to encourage their young students to work late into the night and in the past there have been claims those keen to impress have put in long hours with very little sleep.
On one site, called wallstreetoasis.com, many posters insisted Mr Erhardt regularly worked long hours and added: 'One of the best interns at BAML – three all-nighters, didn't turn up, colleagues went to find him.'
Mr Erhardt had been living in the Claredale House student accommodation flats in Bethnal Green, East London. The apartments are rented out to hundreds of interns during the summer months.
Another poster on the wallstreetoasis.com site added: 'It is absolutely true – he was found dead in the shower by his flatmate. Intern at BAML who went home at 6am three days in a row.'
On Friday staff at the Claredale complex issued a statement to residents, part of which read: 'Some of you might be aware that the emergency services were called to Claredale yesterday evening.
'The reason for this is that we were made aware of an incident involving one of our residents. Sadly the resident concerned had passed away.
'To avoid any rumours or misinformation, we would like to inform you all that there were no suspicious circumstances surrounding the death.'
In recent years interns have told of working long hours at investment banks.
One 20-year-old told London's Evening Standard in 2011 that 'you work whatever hours you're asked to'.
He added: 'Every intern's worst nightmare is what's called "the Magic Roundabout" – which is when you get a taxi to drive you home at 7am and then it waits for you while you shower and change and then takes you back to the office.'
Another 24-year-old told the same newspaper: 'About 100 hours a week was the minimum and the average was probably 110. I worked six-and-a-half days a week.'
A source at Bank of America Merrill Lynch said Mr Erhardt had completed previous internships at other investment banks but could not confirm or deny claims he had worked exceptionally long hours.
However he insisted staff are given both 'mentors' and 'buddies' when they join the firm and are monitored by staff from the human resources department.
The source added Mr Erhardt was very well-liked by members of staff and there will now be a post mortem examination and inquest into his death.
A statement from BAML said: 'We are deeply shocked and saddened by the news of Moritz Erhardt's death.
'He was popular amongst his peers and was a highly diligent intern at our company with a promising future.
'Our first thoughts are with his family and we send our condolences to them at this difficult time.'
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.dailymail.co.uk%2Fi%2Fpix%2F2013%2F08%2F19%2Farticle-0-1B5F2D75000005DC-495_306x490.jpg&hash=dae9808d14e64fd56f3d942b7b207207f4fa6f21)
Blood for the shareholder gods?
I'm surprised this doesn't happen more often. Investment banking industry is extremely cruel not just to the outside world it's seeking rents from, but to the fresh meat inside as well. It's an industry for sadistic psychopaths.
My personal guess is that he didn't die from exhaustion, but that he overdid whatever it was he took to stay sharp during his long work hours.
Quote from: Syt on August 21, 2013, 12:05:49 AM
My personal guess is that he didn't die from exhaustion, but that he overdid whatever it was he took to stay sharp during his long work hours.
Yeah, but that's only a matter of degree. If someone is going to force you to put in three all-nighters in a row, cocaine kind of makes its way to your nostrils on its own.
I'm pretty sure that the bank will insist that no one, like, ever was forced to put in long hours, and that this is done purely voluntarily by their employees. ;)
Quote from: Syt on August 21, 2013, 12:14:01 AM
I'm pretty sure that the bank will insist that no one, like, ever was forced to put in long hours, and that this is done purely voluntarily by their employees. ;)
It is true to some extent. You don't
have to stay employed by the investment bank.
There is no substitute for sleep. The oil industry has it right. If you didn't has 8 hours sleep (or at 8 hours in bed) you don't get to go to work.
How on earth was an intern getting paid so much? They usually get nothing.
This kind of thing is common in Japan where the code is work hard, not work smart. The longer You spend in the office the better. I knew bankers over worked but not to this extent
Real tragedy.
Quote from: Viking on August 21, 2013, 01:08:42 AM
There is no substitute for sleep. The oil industry has it right. If you didn't has 8 hours sleep (or at 8 hours in bed) you don't get to go to work.
[languishGOP]Fucking unions. [/languishGOP]
Quote from: Syt on August 20, 2013, 11:11:10 PM
Blood for the shareholder gods?
[Occupy]Karmic justice for a fat cat bankster.[/Occupy]
People are willing to work that much for no additional compensation? And we wonder why companies are not hiring.
Quote from: Syt on August 21, 2013, 12:05:49 AM
My personal guess is that he didn't die from exhaustion, but that he overdid whatever it was he took to stay sharp during his long work hours.
No way! Those 5-hour energy drinks are HEALTHY! They have VITAMINS! Doubling up just makes you healthier! :blink: :unsure: :blink:
Bank of America truly sucks ass, I look forward to the embarrasing lawsuit.
We do all those stock type guys wear the red suspenders?
Quote from: Razgovory on August 21, 2013, 09:16:25 AM
We do all those stock type guys wear the red suspenders?
Gordon Gecko.
I sorta wish I had "why" instead of "we". :(
Meh.
Quote from: Syt on August 21, 2013, 12:14:01 AMI'm pretty sure that the bank will insist that no one, like, ever was forced to put in long hours, and that this is done purely voluntarily by their employees. ;)
Oooh, "voluntary" overtime, the bread and butter of the banking industry. :lol:
A friend of mine who works for BBVA was told when he joined them that it was expected for people to "voluntarely" stay for a while almost every day, long after office hours ran out. Once when he was particulary busy he was still working at 22h, and a pop up message appeared in his computer telling him "It's already 10PM, maybe you should consider stopping working for the day and going back home".
When I worked for First USA/Bank One (now Chase) back in the day, all the female managers in my department, save for one, showed up for work no earlier than 9:45am. Then they'd go to the gym "during their lunch" around 12:30 or 1:00pm. Once they got back, they'd head back out and spend an hour "running to get a bite to eat". Then late afternoon they'd buckle down and get a solid hour or two of work in. But they'd make it a point to loiter until around 7:00pm so they could tell everyone the next day how late they worked.
How effective can employees be with such little sleep? It's not exactly a job you can do on autopilot.
Quote from: derspiess on August 21, 2013, 09:31:42 AM
When I worked for First USA/Bank One (now Chase) back in the day, all the female managers in my department, save for one, showed up for work no earlier than 9:45am. Then they'd go to the gym "during their lunch" around 12:30 or 1:00pm. Once they got back, they'd head back out and spend an hour "running to get a bite to eat". Then late afternoon they'd buckle down and get a solid hour or two of work in. But they'd make it a point to loiter until around 7:00pm so they could tell everyone the next day how late they worked.
Well yeah a bit different from investment banking. A bank just opened up on the ground floor of my office building and I only run into all their employees entering (who of course take the elevator to the 2nd floor...) on the rare times that I'm come in at 9:45-10.
Quote from: Tyr on August 21, 2013, 03:24:52 AM
How on earth was an intern getting paid so much? They usually get nothing.
This kind of thing is common in Japan where the code is work hard, not work smart. The longer You spend in the office the better. I knew bankers over worked but not to this extent
Have you actually heard of investment banking? Your post suggests that you have not.
Quote from: garbon on August 21, 2013, 09:35:18 AM
Well yeah a bit different from investment banking. A bank just opened up on the ground floor of my office building and I only run into all their employees entering (who of course take the elevator to the 2nd floor...) on the rare times that I'm come in at 9:45-10.
Yeah workign for an investment bank and working at a bank branch should not be confused :P
Quote from: Razgovory on August 21, 2013, 09:16:25 AM
We do all those stock type guys wear the red suspenders?
To hold their pants up.
Speaking of retail banking, bank teller seems to be the new burger flipper. Every time I walk by the bank branch in my supermarket I see new faces behind the counter and they all look 14.
14? :perv:
To clarify, my example wasn't a bank branch. It was in the marketing department of the credit card division. But still a world away from investment banking.
Some of my old school retail bank clients have the classic banker's hours: open from 9:00am to 3:30pm, and they either close at noon or are closed altogether on Wednesdays.
Quote from: garbon on August 21, 2013, 09:35:18 AM
Quote from: derspiess on August 21, 2013, 09:31:42 AM
When I worked for First USA/Bank One (now Chase) back in the day, all the female managers in my department, save for one, showed up for work no earlier than 9:45am. Then they'd go to the gym "during their lunch" around 12:30 or 1:00pm. Once they got back, they'd head back out and spend an hour "running to get a bite to eat". Then late afternoon they'd buckle down and get a solid hour or two of work in. But they'd make it a point to loiter until around 7:00pm so they could tell everyone the next day how late they worked.
Well yeah a bit different from investment banking. A bank just opened up on the ground floor of my office building and I only run into all their employees entering (who of course take the elevator to the 2nd floor...) on the rare times that I'm come in at 9:45-10.
That, and there's a substantial difference between managers and interns, who are trying their damnedest to be future managers.
We had interns. Told them to be at work at 8am; any questions, I'll be there by 9. :lol:
Quote from: Viking on August 21, 2013, 01:08:42 AM
There is no substitute for sleep. The oil industry has it right. If you didn't has 8 hours sleep (or at 8 hours in bed) you don't get to go to work.
Yeah that makes sense in an industry were you're actually doing something positive and productive for society.
Investment bankers, who's especially giving a flying fuck about the whole tribe ? :unsure:
Society has nothing to do with it mongers.
The oil industry has rules on sleep because a mistake can kill people and destroy a billion dollars worth of equipment.
Aspiring investment bankers work themselves to death because it's a winner take all market and the winner makes a boatload of money.
Quote from: Admiral Yi on August 21, 2013, 10:35:46 AM
Society has nothing to do with it mongers.
The oil industry has rules on sleep because a mistake can kill people and destroy a billion dollars worth of equipment.
Aspiring investment bankers work themselves to death because it's a winner take all market and the winner makes a boatload of money.
Nope, of course it does.
My opinion, given we live in an energy intensive civilization, is that we need both the safe operation of the energy fields and that the workers should enjoy good pay and working conditions in recognition of their value to society.
Same could be said of doctors and surgeons.
Investment bankers, do I need to reiterate my opinion again, personally I'd see it as a big positive if the lot of them converted to scientology overnight or say all re-trained as telesales cold callers. :cool:
Quote from: mongers on August 21, 2013, 10:41:39 AM
Investment bankers, do I need to reiterate my opinion again, personally I'd see it as a big positive if the lot of them converted to scientology overnight or say all re-trained as telesales cold callers. :cool:
:huh:
Quote from: garbon on August 21, 2013, 10:44:51 AM
Quote from: mongers on August 21, 2013, 10:41:39 AM
Investment bankers, do I need to reiterate my opinion again, personally I'd see it as a big positive if the lot of them converted to scientology overnight or say all re-trained as telesales cold callers. :cool:
:huh:
I admit, I toned it down a lot. :cool:
How is it that we, society, decide the pay of oil workers mongers?
And of course it's well known that medical residents pull barbaric hours.
Quote from: Admiral Yi on August 21, 2013, 10:46:32 AM
How is it that we, society, decide the pay of oil workers mongers?
And of course it's well known that medical residents pull barbaric hours.
I didn't say that society decided the pay.
Also the situation for medical/hospital residents changed about 10-15 years ago, much more sensible.
OK, I misunderstood.
Quote from: mongers on August 21, 2013, 10:48:56 AM
Also the situation for medical/hospital residents changed about 10-15 years ago, much more sensible.
I know that a lot of places put caps on hours which from interns/residents I know means that they pull various tricks to allow them to still work just as much. However, right now, some of their anecdotes are escaping me.
Quote from: garbon on August 21, 2013, 10:57:20 AM
Quote from: mongers on August 21, 2013, 10:48:56 AM
Also the situation for medical/hospital residents changed about 10-15 years ago, much more sensible.
I know that a lot of places put caps on hours which from interns/residents I know means that they pull various tricks to allow them to still work just as much. However, right now, some of their anecdotes are escaping me.
Obviously I was talking about the situation over here, one of the good things the Blair government did.
But I think there have been issues with the generational change in hospital working practices, I recall one of the problems is now a lack of total hours put in compared to the old more darwinian approach to on the job training.
Quote from: The Larch on August 21, 2013, 09:22:30 AM
Once when he was particulary busy he was still working at 22h,
:ph34r:
Quote from: mongers on August 21, 2013, 10:41:39 AM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on August 21, 2013, 10:35:46 AM
Society has nothing to do with it mongers.
The oil industry has rules on sleep because a mistake can kill people and destroy a billion dollars worth of equipment.
Aspiring investment bankers work themselves to death because it's a winner take all market and the winner makes a boatload of money.
Nope, of course it does.
My opinion, given we live in an energy intensive civilization, is that we need both the safe operation of the energy fields and that the workers should enjoy good pay and working conditions in recognition of their value to society.
Same could be said of doctors and surgeons.
That might be your opinion of how things should be, but it's not how the world works.
Quote from: dps on August 21, 2013, 12:36:11 PM
Quote from: mongers on August 21, 2013, 10:41:39 AM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on August 21, 2013, 10:35:46 AM
Society has nothing to do with it mongers.
The oil industry has rules on sleep because a mistake can kill people and destroy a billion dollars worth of equipment.
Aspiring investment bankers work themselves to death because it's a winner take all market and the winner makes a boatload of money.
Nope, of course it does.
My opinion, given we live in an energy intensive civilization, is that we need both the safe operation of the energy fields and that the workers should enjoy good pay and working conditions in recognition of their value to society.
Same could be said of doctors and surgeons.
That might be your opinion of how things should be, but it's not how the world works.
How many months, weeks or perhaps days do you think you and our civilization in it's current form, could survive without cheap available energy ?
The oil industry does pay quite well, but it's impossible for them to have good working conditions. It's an inherently dangerous job.
Quote from: mongers on August 21, 2013, 12:39:52 PM
Quote from: dps on August 21, 2013, 12:36:11 PM
Quote from: mongers on August 21, 2013, 10:41:39 AM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on August 21, 2013, 10:35:46 AM
Society has nothing to do with it mongers.
The oil industry has rules on sleep because a mistake can kill people and destroy a billion dollars worth of equipment.
Aspiring investment bankers work themselves to death because it's a winner take all market and the winner makes a boatload of money.
Nope, of course it does.
My opinion, given we live in an energy intensive civilization, is that we need both the safe operation of the energy fields and that the workers should enjoy good pay and working conditions in recognition of their value to society.
Same could be said of doctors and surgeons.
That might be your opinion of how things should be, but it's not how the world works.
How many months, weeks or perhaps days do you think you and our civilization in it's current form, could survive without cheap available energy ?
Not long, of course, but that's not what determines the working conditions of people in that industry.
Quote from: alfred russel on August 21, 2013, 11:02:00 AM
Quote from: The Larch on August 21, 2013, 09:22:30 AM
Once when he was particulary busy he was still working at 22h,
:ph34r:
That sounds like me several nights a week, every week pretty much. :ph34r:
That said, I'm always at home by that time and remoting in.
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on August 21, 2013, 12:42:31 PM
The oil industry does pay quite well, but it's impossible for them to have good working conditions. It's an inherently dangerous job.
Not in my experience and probably Vikings perhaps.
But it's also in part cultural, that very successful TV series about those macho men, no doubt makes it out to be inherently risky and exciting, perhaps they even play up to camera a bit ?
Personally I've not seen drilling conducted in that bravo manner myself.
My guess is oil industry work is not much more dangerous than driving a cab, though clearly figures would vary between countries.
Quote from: Caliga on August 21, 2013, 12:50:53 PM
Quote from: alfred russel on August 21, 2013, 11:02:00 AM
Quote from: The Larch on August 21, 2013, 09:22:30 AM
Once when he was particulary busy he was still working at 22h,
:ph34r:
That sounds like me several nights a week, every week pretty much. :ph34r:
That said, I'm always at home by that time and remoting in.
Is that work you do in the extra hours really necessary?
And if you have to do those extra hours on a regular basis, are they compensated in any way?
Would it make sense to hire an additional person, or a part time assistant?
Quote from: Syt on August 21, 2013, 12:59:08 PM
Is that work you do in the extra hours really necessary?
And if you have to do those extra hours on a regular basis, are they compensated in any way?
Would it make sense to hire an additional person, or a part time assistant?
I work no where near the hours a lot of investment bankers claim to work, and a lot less than they actually do work, but when things really get going it isn't unusual for me to work past midnight. Usually a couple of times a year I'm good to stay until about 3-4 in the morning. I've done all nighters, though less frequently as I get older. Usually I go home to change and shower, but I've also just worked straight through without changing (I know once, maybe twice).
It is just the nature of the beast that the workload in a finance type job dramatically increases when something big is happening, and throwing more bodies at the problem doesn't help. Most of the time I'm going home at 6-7, but those few times when things go crazy all bets are off.
That is fine for me, but the problem for investment bankers is that if they are in demand and working, they are always helping clients during their times when things are going crazy. If they aren't, they have some incentive to stay at the office to cover that up.
Quote from: mongers on August 21, 2013, 12:56:04 PM
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on August 21, 2013, 12:42:31 PM
The oil industry does pay quite well, but it's impossible for them to have good working conditions. It's an inherently dangerous job.
Not in my experience and probably Vikings perhaps.
But it's also in part cultural, that very successful TV series about those macho men, no doubt makes it out to be inherently risky and exciting, perhaps they even play up to camera a bit ?
Personally I've not seen drilling conducted in that bravo manner myself.
My guess is oil industry work is not much more dangerous than driving a cab, though clearly figures would vary between countries.
"driving a cab" is not a very good comparator, because it's a fairly risky job in itself. All that time in traffic increases your odds of getting in an accident, plus the ever-present risk of being robbed.
I have plenty of in-laws, former-clients, and lots of witnesses and accuseds who work in the oil patch. It is dangerous work. They take all kinds of steps to avoid that, of course (hence things like mandatory drug testing and mandatory sleep times) but you can only minimize, not eliminate. Any time you're working with multi-ton equipment a tiny mistake can be lethal.
Quote from: mongers on August 21, 2013, 12:56:04 PM
But it's also in part cultural, that very successful TV series about those macho men, no doubt makes it out to be inherently risky and exciting, perhaps they even play up to camera a bit ?
A cable reality show can be very successful without being something that people will know what you're talking about when it's mentioned. As happened here. :D
Quote from: mongers on August 21, 2013, 12:56:04 PMNot in my experience and probably Vikings perhaps.
You worked in the oil industry?
I'm going to suspect something more than we're hearing about. Staying up for a few nights by itself shouldn't be enough to kill a healthy young adult. Maybe he was taking a lot of stimulants (and not of the caffeine variety) to stay up and that lead to a problem, or maybe he had a preexisting heart condition or he has an blood glucose problem or etc and during his marathon all nighters he didn't eat enough or something.
Quote from: alfred russel on August 21, 2013, 11:02:00 AM
Quote from: The Larch on August 21, 2013, 09:22:30 AM
Once when he was particulary busy he was still working at 22h,
:ph34r:
You're the kind of people who has a sleeping bag in some back room in the office, right? :P
A brief bit of googling seems to indicate that barrister is right, but that it appears also to be cultural as well, as the US/Canadian has X fatalities per 100,000, where X is high but not the most dangerous industry, that appears to be agriculture/fishing at about 35, followed by mining at 30, which I assume oil and gas is part of. And I'll make the assumption that coal is more dangerous, so oil/gas is a bit below that figure.
In comparison, fatality rates in the UK are so low, the more usable figure is a combine fatality/serious accident metric, which indicates off-shore oil and gas is on average safer than several other UK industries, it has an accident rate below the national average across all industries :hmm:
Quote from: mongers on August 21, 2013, 02:10:16 PM
A brief bit of googling seems to indicate that barrister is right, but that it appears also to be cultural as well, as the US/Canadian has X fatalities per 100,000, where X is high but not the most dangerous industry, that appears to be agriculture/fishing at about 35, followed by mining at 30, which I assume oil and gas is part of. And I'll make the assumption that coal is more dangerous, so oil/gas is a bit below that figure.
In comparison, fatality rates in the UK are so low, the more usable figure is a combine fatality/serious accident metric, which indicates off-shore oil and gas is on average safer than several other UK industries, it has an accident rate below the national average across all industries :hmm:
May also be that UK oil industry is mature / declining, whereas in Canada it is still expanding. The most dangerous phase is construction / drilling, from what I understand.
Quote from: Barrister on August 21, 2013, 03:39:09 PM
Quote from: mongers on August 21, 2013, 02:10:16 PM
A brief bit of googling seems to indicate that barrister is right, but that it appears also to be cultural as well, as the US/Canadian has X fatalities per 100,000, where X is high but not the most dangerous industry, that appears to be agriculture/fishing at about 35, followed by mining at 30, which I assume oil and gas is part of. And I'll make the assumption that coal is more dangerous, so oil/gas is a bit below that figure.
In comparison, fatality rates in the UK are so low, the more usable figure is a combine fatality/serious accident metric, which indicates off-shore oil and gas is on average safer than several other UK industries, it has an accident rate below the national average across all industries :hmm:
May also be that UK oil industry is mature / declining, whereas in Canada it is still expanding. The most dangerous phase is construction / drilling, from what I understand.
I think Viking is our point man to give a view on the N.S./wider European oil/gas industry practice, but he doesn't appear to be about today.
Quote from: OttoVonBismarck on August 21, 2013, 01:42:48 PM
I'm going to suspect something more than we're hearing about. Staying up for a few nights by itself shouldn't be enough to kill a healthy young adult. Maybe he was taking a lot of stimulants (and not of the caffeine variety) to stay up and that lead to a problem, or maybe he had a preexisting heart condition or he has an blood glucose problem or etc and during his marathon all nighters he didn't eat enough or something.
I agree. What we've been presented with can't alone cause someone to die. I've worked for stretches as long as 28 hours straight and I wasn't dead or even close to it, though I was extremely tired of course.
Yeah, I was on duty 36 straight hours during a blizzard/ice storm in 1994 with only a couple short combat naps here and there every few hours, but I was fine.
Kid was probably up to his ass in Alderall.
I don't do well going with zero sleep. Hated having to do that in the field in ROTC. If I'm lying prone on the perimeter at night, I'm gonna eventually fall asleep, simple as that. I used to eat instant coffee straight out of the packet to try & stay awake. Sometimes it worked, sometimes it didn't.
Quote from: derspiess on August 21, 2013, 04:32:23 PM
I don't do well going with zero sleep.
Yeah, that shit came to a halt roughly around the age of 29. :lol:
Quote from: CountDeMoney on August 21, 2013, 04:34:49 PM
Quote from: derspiess on August 21, 2013, 04:32:23 PM
I don't do well going with zero sleep.
Yeah, that shit came to a halt roughly around the age of 29. :lol:
I don't know, I was still able to pull an all-nighter last time I went to Origins in 2006 (I was 44 at the time). Don't think I could do it now, though.
Quote from: OttoVonBismarck on August 21, 2013, 01:42:48 PM
I'm going to suspect something more than we're hearing about. Staying up for a few nights by itself shouldn't be enough to kill a healthy young adult. Maybe he was taking a lot of stimulants (and not of the caffeine variety) to stay up and that lead to a problem, or maybe he had a preexisting heart condition or he has an blood glucose problem or etc and during his marathon all nighters he didn't eat enough or something.
From what I read, he had some kind of epilepsy or something along those lines. It's a while ago since I read it (so no link), but according to the article it was not medically unexpected for the lack of sleep and stress to trigger some sort of attack/episode, and death was within the range of possible (if unlikely) outcomes.
... something like that. In any case, a rational explanation was offered beyond "OMG OVERWORK!!!!"
Quote from: Jacob on August 21, 2013, 05:58:25 PM
In any case, a rational explanation was offered beyond "OMG OVERWORK!!!!"
Didn't affect the stock price anyway.
Bank of America Corp
NYSE: BAC - Aug 21 6:53pm ET
14.34+0.05 (0.35%)
Dead interns do not affect shareholder value. Too disposable and easily replaceable.
Quote from: CountDeMoney on August 21, 2013, 06:13:26 PM
Quote from: Jacob on August 21, 2013, 05:58:25 PM
In any case, a rational explanation was offered beyond "OMG OVERWORK!!!!"
Didn't affect the stock price anyway.
Bank of America Corp
NYSE: BAC - Aug 21 6:53pm ET
14.34+0.05 (0.35%)
Dead interns do not affect shareholder value. Too disposable and easily replaceable.
Saved a salary to go toward next quarter's earnings. If you decide to go shoot up the offices of your former employer, please post it first so we can buy shares. :)
Quote from: MadImmortalMan on August 21, 2013, 06:33:12 PM
Saved a salary to go toward next quarter's earnings. If you decide to go shoot up the offices of your former employer, please post it first so we can buy shares. :)
I wonder how many last-minute intern applications at BAML spiked today. :lol:
Quote from: The Larch on August 21, 2013, 01:58:42 PM
Quote from: alfred russel on August 21, 2013, 11:02:00 AM
Quote from: The Larch on August 21, 2013, 09:22:30 AM
Once when he was particulary busy he was still working at 22h,
:ph34r:
You're the kind of people who has a sleeping bag in some back room in the office, right? :P
No, but there is a hotel across the street from the office that has been used to save a trip home and back. :blush:
I'm not a workaholic, I try not to work late or weekends, and usually don't--it is just that if something is going on and it has a tight deadline, all bets are off. And that happens once in a while. I actually don't mind it--every once in a while going all out at work can be fun (I've tried telling this to people and they either think I'm crazy or want to smack me).
Going all out to reach a goal can be fun, for sure.
It's less fun if the goal seems like bullshit, if you're not being rewarded for the effort or achieving the goal, and/or if you're giving up important things to do so (family events, sex, whatever).
Canadian work ethic :rolleyes:
Quote from: Jacob on August 21, 2013, 06:50:50 PM
Going all out to reach a goal can be fun, for sure.
It's less fun if the goal seems like bullshit, if you're not being rewarded for the effort or achieving the goal, and/or if you're giving up important things to do so (family events, sex, whatever).
I agree.
Quote from: alfred russel on August 21, 2013, 06:45:36 PM
No, but there is a hotel across the street from the office that has been used to save a trip home and back. :blush:
I'm not a workaholic, I try not to work late or weekends, and usually don't--it is just that if something is going on and it has a tight deadline, all bets are off. And that happens once in a while. I actually don't mind it--every once in a while going all out at work can be fun (I've tried telling this to people and they either think I'm crazy or want to smack me).
What do you do for a living?
Quote from: merithyn on August 21, 2013, 07:40:30 PM
Quote from: alfred russel on August 21, 2013, 06:45:36 PM
No, but there is a hotel across the street from the office that has been used to save a trip home and back. :blush:
I'm not a workaholic, I try not to work late or weekends, and usually don't--it is just that if something is going on and it has a tight deadline, all bets are off. And that happens once in a while. I actually don't mind it--every once in a while going all out at work can be fun (I've tried telling this to people and they either think I'm crazy or want to smack me).
What do you do for a living?
Corporate finance.
Quote from: alfred russel on August 21, 2013, 07:46:59 PM
Quote from: merithyn on August 21, 2013, 07:40:30 PM
Quote from: alfred russel on August 21, 2013, 06:45:36 PM
No, but there is a hotel across the street from the office that has been used to save a trip home and back. :blush:
I'm not a workaholic, I try not to work late or weekends, and usually don't--it is just that if something is going on and it has a tight deadline, all bets are off. And that happens once in a while. I actually don't mind it--every once in a while going all out at work can be fun (I've tried telling this to people and they either think I'm crazy or want to smack me).
What do you do for a living?
Corporate finance.
need a Canadian intern? I'm already an insomniac :P
Quote from: merithyn on August 21, 2013, 07:40:30 PM
Quote from: alfred russel on August 21, 2013, 06:45:36 PM
No, but there is a hotel across the street from the office that has been used to save a trip home and back. :blush:
I'm not a workaholic, I try not to work late or weekends, and usually don't--it is just that if something is going on and it has a tight deadline, all bets are off. And that happens once in a while. I actually don't mind it--every once in a while going all out at work can be fun (I've tried telling this to people and they either think I'm crazy or want to smack me).
What do you do for a living?
I think he's an arms dealer.
Quote from: merithyn on August 21, 2013, 08:01:16 PM
Quote from: alfred russel on August 21, 2013, 07:46:59 PM
Corporate finance.
So... an accountant? :unsure:
I think it's a euthemism that means he's an enforcer for a loanshark.
My guess is he's involved in issuing corporate debt or equities, maybe managing cash balances.
Whatever it is, it's probably soulless and immoral.
Quote from: CountDeMoney on August 21, 2013, 08:26:47 PM
Whatever it is, it's probably soulless and immoral.
Probably.
QuoteSo... an accountant? :unsure:
Applied accounting is a big part of it.
Quote from: merithyn on August 21, 2013, 08:01:16 PM
Quote from: alfred russel on August 21, 2013, 07:46:59 PM
Corporate finance.
So... an accountant? :unsure:
Accountants always say they are in corporate finance. The ones at my firm do too. I tried to tell them that means banking, but they are sure accounts payable is "finance". :P
Quote from: MadImmortalMan on August 21, 2013, 09:03:39 PM
Accountants always say they are in corporate finance. The ones at my firm do too. I tried to tell them that means banking, but they are sure accounts payable is "finance". :P
I came up through treasury. :P
But accounting is a part of finance, so they aren't really wrong. At a certain point the difference is small between coming up with numbers (accounting) and projecting what numbers will be under difference scenarios and interpreting the numbers (more traditional finance).
Quote from: MadImmortalMan on August 21, 2013, 09:03:39 PM
Quote from: merithyn on August 21, 2013, 08:01:16 PM
Quote from: alfred russel on August 21, 2013, 07:46:59 PM
Corporate finance.
So... an accountant? :unsure:
Accountants always say they are in corporate finance. The ones at my firm do too. I tried to tell them that means banking, but they are sure accounts payable is "finance". :P
accounts payable is barely accounting, let alone finance :P
My accounts payable dept forgets to pay accounts.
AP people aren't accountants. A monkey could work in AP.
Quote from: Caliga on August 22, 2013, 05:07:48 AM
AP people aren't accountants. A monkey could work in AP.
Here speaks the true soul of HR.
Quote from: Caliga on August 22, 2013, 05:07:48 AM
AP people aren't accountants. A monkey could work in AP.
I worked in AP as a temp for six months. :)
Now I work in billing. Neither have been particularly taxing, I assure you. :glare:
Quote from: Caliga on August 22, 2013, 05:07:48 AM
AP people aren't accountants. A monkey could work in AP.
I worked in AP for five years and agree.
I never worked at an A&P.
I have eaten at an A&P.
"From the Atlantic Ocean to the other one."
Quote from: garbon on August 21, 2013, 10:05:40 PM
My accounts payable dept forgets to pay accounts.
I love your AP department.
We have the opposite problem with ours. If you don't pay bills, cash flows look better. :)
Fucking AP. The longer they take to pay, the more vendors call me looking for their money. Fuck those monkeys.
Quote from: Caliga on August 22, 2013, 05:07:48 AM
AP people aren't accountants. A monkey could work in AP.
It depends...I've seen this new software that scans invoices from any vendor and that will by some mechanism (it was explained to me once, and I just registered it as "magic") enters all the details into the ERP, including the journal entry, and matches the invoice with a PO. There are humans that do nothing all day other than compare what was scanned to what was entered into the system (to make sure the "magic" worked). That is a horrible job, and involves 0 thinking.
On the other hand, probably most accounting entries and many key accruals go through AP. It also is a key part of managing cash flows and can run your organization into big problems if not done right (unclaimed property audits for example). It depends what you are doing in AP.
Quote from: Tyr on August 21, 2013, 03:24:52 AM
How on earth was an intern getting paid so much? They usually get nothing.
Firms that are really looking for talent pay their interns and pay them well because they know the alternative is to limit their pool of potential recruits to the wealthy or those who live in London already.
Firms that are basically nepotistic, or just looking for cheap labour don't care.
Quote from: alfred russel on August 22, 2013, 08:50:38 AM
Quote from: Caliga on August 22, 2013, 05:07:48 AM
AP people aren't accountants. A monkey could work in AP.
It depends...I've seen this new software that scans invoices from any vendor and that will by some mechanism (it was explained to me once, and I just registered it as "magic") enters all the details into the ERP, including the journal entry, and matches the invoice with a PO. There are humans that do nothing all day other than compare what was scanned to what was entered into the system (to make sure the "magic" worked). That is a horrible job, and involves 0 thinking.
On the other hand, probably most accounting entries and many key accruals go through AP. It also is a key part of managing cash flows and can run your organization into big problems if not done right (unclaimed property audits for example). It depends what you are doing in AP.
OCR is great if the invoices come in a standard format with the information always on the same part of the page. But if you're paying a thousand different companies all with different invoice formats, then it might take more time to program the document recognition than to just manually input. It's one of those things that's really useful in certain situations but cannot be applied more broadly.
Quote from: MadImmortalMan on August 22, 2013, 11:13:42 AM
OCR is great if the invoices come in a standard format with the information always on the same part of the page. But if you're paying a thousand different companies all with different invoice formats, then it might take more time to program the document recognition than to just manually input. It's one of those things that's really useful in certain situations but cannot be applied more broadly.
I think the state of that technology is rapidly changing. Even if what you say is true now I would not bet on it within a few years.
Quote from: alfred russel on August 22, 2013, 08:50:38 AM
It depends...I've seen this new software that scans invoices from any vendor and that will by some mechanism (it was explained to me once, and I just registered it as "magic") enters all the details into the ERP, including the journal entry, and matches the invoice with a PO. There are humans that do nothing all day other than compare what was scanned to what was entered into the system (to make sure the "magic" worked). That is a horrible job, and involves 0 thinking.
Yeah, we're looking at implementing that.
Quote from: Syt on August 22, 2013, 08:27:56 AM
Quote from: Caliga on August 22, 2013, 05:07:48 AM
AP people aren't accountants. A monkey could work in AP.
I worked in AP for five years and agree.
I'm not saying everyone that works in AP is dumb, but I am saying it's not akin to being an actual accountant... not even close. In our AP department there's at least one clerk who is very bright. The others... ehhh, no comment. :sleep:
The other amusing thing with AP... I'm finishing up a project wherein we are now outsourcing all of our check cutting and are making an effort to pay most of our vendors via EFT. The AP people LOVE the changes.... I guess because they aren't able to think logically about the long-term effects of me having implemented that. :ph34r:
Quote from: alfred russel on August 22, 2013, 08:50:38 AM
It depends...I've seen this new software that scans invoices from any vendor and that will by some mechanism (it was explained to me once, and I just registered it as "magic") enters all the details into the ERP, including the journal entry, and matches the invoice with a PO. There are humans that do nothing all day other than compare what was scanned to what was entered into the system (to make sure the "magic" worked). That is a horrible job, and involves 0 thinking.
In our SAP systems we have started to use a feature called Evaluated Receipt Settlement that will create the invoice based on goods receipts or service entry sheets and the supplier will basically just get the money and a kind of invoice from us so there is no more invoice document from the supplier that we would have to scan.
Quote from: MadImmortalMan on August 22, 2013, 11:13:42 AM
OCR is great if the invoices come in a standard format with the information always on the same part of the page. But if you're paying a thousand different companies all with different invoice formats, then it might take more time to program the document recognition than to just manually input. It's one of those things that's really useful in certain situations but cannot be applied more broadly.
(CdM--don't read below for your own good)
A benefit is that you can have the invoices sent to a center where they are just scanned in. At that point the OCR software may be not be fully effective, but where the fixing task is done is no longer relevant (because you now have a scanned of the invoice in the system). You can take an AP department in the US or Europe, get rid of it, just get a service to scan in invoices, and then do the fixing of OCR errors in India. You may not save many hours, but you may still save money.
Quote from: Zanza on August 22, 2013, 11:31:47 AM
In our SAP systems we have started to use a feature called Evaluated Receipt Settlement that will create the invoice based on goods receipts or service entry sheets and the supplier will basically just get the money and a kind of invoice from us so there is no more invoice document from the supplier that we would have to scan.
We use that some...I don't like it...what if the data entry for the price per unit is wrong? Or the goods receipt is messed up? You are eliminating a part of the 3 way match.
The unit price is only entered into the system once when it is negotiated. All release orders against the blanket order just pull the price from there. So you just need to be careful when entering the price once. The goods receipt being messed up is of course a possible weakness, but especially if you actually buy goods that go to a warehouse, the goods receipt process can be automated with RFID or scans too, so there is very little room for error. If it is goods or services that are delivered to an office or so without a warehousing process, there is obviously more room for error.
Quote from: Caliga on August 22, 2013, 11:29:01 AM
The other amusing thing with AP... I'm finishing up a project wherein we are now outsourcing all of our check cutting and are making an effort to pay most of our vendors via EFT. The AP people LOVE the changes.... I guess because they aren't able to think logically about the long-term effects of me having implemented that. :ph34r:
Hehe, my company provides end to end loan decisioning software for medium and large banks (hell, even some smaller banks now, I am part of the effort in fact to streamline our offering to down market it).
Our stuff does everything from track the customer, to format the deal, to run credit checks and risk analysis to generating the legal documents to provisioning the loan itself and will even integrate with the loan servicing system to send the loan off to servicing once it is made.
Obviously, there is a huge amount of customization and configuration work involved in this.
And who is who we have to work with to understand the existing process at a given client?
Well, the portions of the loan department who will be VERY streamlined once we get this all in place, of course...
Quote from: Berkut on August 22, 2013, 12:19:54 PM
Well, the portions of the loan department who will be VERY streamlined once we get this all in place, of course...
I had to fill out a questionnaire recently whether my job can be moved to India. I came to the conclusion that it can't be moved there. :P
Quote from: Zanza on August 22, 2013, 12:14:54 PM
The unit price is only entered into the system once when it is negotiated. All release orders against the blanket order just pull the price from there. So you just need to be careful when entering the price once. The goods receipt being messed up is of course a possible weakness, but especially if you actually buy goods that go to a warehouse, the goods receipt process can be automated with RFID or scans too, so there is very little room for error. If it is goods or services that are delivered to an office or so without a warehousing process, there is obviously more room for error.
never underestimate the ability of receiving to fuck up
Quote from: Zanza on August 22, 2013, 12:14:54 PM
The unit price is only entered into the system once when it is negotiated. All release orders against the blanket order just pull the price from there. So you just need to be careful when entering the price once. The goods receipt being messed up is of course a possible weakness, but especially if you actually buy goods that go to a warehouse, the goods receipt process can be automated with RFID or scans too, so there is very little room for error. If it is goods or services that are delivered to an office or so without a warehousing process, there is obviously more room for error.
Obviously I'm on the losing side of this, but...
Suppose there is a negotiated price reduction at some point. I don't know where you work, but there is a big problem with capturing agreement information. If an invoice is sent, it requires 2 to actively miss the change, where as otherwise the roles become passive.
Also, even if you automate goods receipt, there has to be a manual override. Otherwise, your shipment with the scuffed bar codes or that arrives when the system is down will need to be sent back.
And how does an audit work with no invoice back up?
Quote from: HVC on August 22, 2013, 12:31:39 PM
And how does an audit work with no invoice back up?
I refer you to the Bullshit Jobs thread. :P
Quote from: alfred russel on August 22, 2013, 12:30:24 PMSuppose there is a negotiated price reduction at some point. I don't know where you work, but there is a big problem with capturing agreement information.
When the price is changed, the blanket order is adjusted so all release orders against it will be created with the right price again. You can obviously define prices with validities, e.g. one price up to 30/8 and one starting 1/9, or one price up to 10 units, one up to 100 and one for more than 100. Making sure the blanket order is changed is the task of purchasing, meaning the person that actually negotiates the new price. The guys doing the scheduling in logistics don't have to care for that. They just order what they need to keep the machine running. Or the system orders it and they just confirm what the system calculated.
QuoteIf an invoice is sent, it requires 2 to actively miss the change, where as otherwise the roles become passive.
I guess the rate of error is lower when you have one person entering the price in one place once instead of having lots of different people checking prices manually all the time.
QuoteAlso, even if you automate goods receipt, there has to be a manual override. Otherwise, your shipment with the scuffed bar codes or that arrives when the system is down will need to be sent back.
In a warehouse scenario, when the system is down, the robots or forklift drivers wouldn't know where to put the shipment anyway so that should never, ever happen. But manual overrides will always exist.
Quote from: HVC on August 22, 2013, 12:31:39 PM
And how does an audit work with no invoice back up?
The dog at it, Mr. Auditor. :)
Quote from: Zanza on August 22, 2013, 12:58:24 PM
When the price is changed, the blanket order is adjusted so all release orders against it will be created with the right price again. You can obviously define prices with validities, e.g. one price up to 30/8 and one starting 1/9, or one price up to 10 units, one up to 100 and one for more than 100. Making sure the blanket order is changed is the task of purchasing, meaning the person that actually negotiates the new price. The guys doing the scheduling in logistics don't have to care for that. They just order what they need to keep the machine running. Or the system orders it and they just confirm what the system calculated.
I'm not concerned about some dude in scheduling working out a new price deal with a vendor during down time. I'm worried about (possibly external) legal working out a price discount to resolve a dispute with a vendor or a VP coming to some arrangement, and word not getting to the guy in purchasing that does data entry. Or purchasing not being aware of a price change of a vendor (say the contract was to buy aluminum at $10, unless worldwide prices fell to some level at which time the price would be $7).
I want to see a bill before I pay for something. Sure the menu says the item was $9.99, but maybe it was on special today and I didn't notice.
Quote from: HVC on August 22, 2013, 12:31:39 PM
And how does an audit work with no invoice back up?
You can validate the electronic invoice: verify the goods receipt with a bill of lading or other shipping documents, and verify the price by reviewing the agreement with the vendor.