Apparently, despite being on break, the oil train moved itself during a shift change and derailed in the city of Lac Mégantice, exploding and destroying an entire neighbourhood.
http://youtu.be/5Gl49CpPQtc
http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/montreal/story/2013/07/06/quebec-train-derailment-fire.html
Quote
One person has been declared dead after a train derailment in the tight-knit community of Lac-Mégantic, Que., sparked explosions and a major blaze.
The train, which was carrying crude oil, rolled away overnight after it was parked by an engineer. It derailed in the heart of the small town in Quebec's Eastern Townships, forcing close to 2,000 people from their homes.
Share your thoughts and wishes with the community of Lac-Mégantic.Tweet #LacMegantic (https://twitter.com/intent/tweet?button_hashtag=LacMegantic) Witnesses reported between five and six explosions overnight in the town of about 6,000 people. The derailment happened at about 1 a.m. ET, about 250 kilometres east of Montreal. About 1,000 people were evacuated from their homes overnight, and several hundred more also left their homes on Saturday afternoon because of air quality concerns. <blockquote>'It's like the town has been cut by a knife.'—Grégory Gomez del Prado, Quebec provincial police</blockquote>Quebec provincial police confirmed one death on Saturday afternoon, and Sgt. Grégory Gomez del Prado told CBC it's possible up to 100 people could be missing, although he said it is difficult to pin down an exact number.
"It's like the town has been cut by a knife," he said, referring to the fire that tore through the community's downtown.
Prime Minister Stephen Harper sent his thoughts out to the community on Saturday afternoon. He said the government was monitoring the situation and was standing ready to provide extra support.
"Our thoughts and prayers go out to the families and friends of those affected by this morning's tragic train derailment," he said in a statement. "We hope evacuees can return to their homes safely and quickly," he said.'Total mayhem'Zeph Kee, who lives about 30 minutes outside of Lac-Mégantic, said he saw a huge fireball coming from the city's downtown early Saturday morning.
The area surrounding the explosion site was a popular place on the evenings, and witnesses said the bars and restaurants were bustling with people when the first explosion hit.
Kee said one of the bars, which was packed with people enjoying their drinks on the patio, is now gone along with dozens of other buildings and homes that were flattened by the blast.
Another vid here (http://www.lapresse.ca/le-soleil/actualites/justice-et-faits-divers/201307/06/01-4668367-explosion-au-coeur-de-lac-megantic-au-moins-un-mort.php)
Yikes, doesn't look good. :(
http://worldnews.nbcnews.com/_news/2013/07/06/19319414-major-fire-after-train-carrying-oil-derails-in-quebec-town-near-canada-us-border?lite
half the city is destroyed. Many are missing, no one can get near there yet, there's still risks other trains may explode.
Someone mucking around with the stationary train's couplings ?
they found the locomotives 800m further, with the brakes still on.
:o I bet something went wrong there.
Just to add a few comments :
Most of the old downtown part of Lac-Mégantic has been wiped out last night at 1AM on a hot Friday night. I'm mentioning this, because there laid has all the old town historical buildings, plus bars, cafés, parks, and residences, both for locals and tourists. As it was the start of the weekend, those were crowded. All of these most probably have been wiped out or blown away in the explosion, which happened on a railway crossing in plain middle of the town.
The official tally right now is one confirmed dead, but it's 100% certain the casualties will be much, much higher. Officially authorities remain coy on any estimation of the number of casualties because they cannot approach the core burning and so can only rely on reports from people having lost contact with their kins or close ones for now. Notably, those who were inside buildings which were in close vicinity of the explosion locus have low chances of having survived the blast. Most of people who have survived were outside, some plunging directly into the lake.
The fire is still burning, and is still expected to burn for a while. The heat is so intense, firefighters can only work to stop the fire from spreading to the rest of the town buildings and cannot approach the main core of the fire. Around 75 carts were into that convoy, with around a ton of crude oil each. Quite a few carts haven't burned yet despite the crashing, and so can blow up anytime because of the heat and combustion.
Looting has been reported, so the SQ will patrol inside the perimeter and arrest anyone found there without papers or due reason.
Quote from: DGuller on July 06, 2013, 08:31:36 PM
:o I bet something went wrong there.
From what we know so far, the train driver stopped the train at a stop on a slope, put the brakes on and exited the cart for a change of shift (and go sleep). Usually this switch happen early in the morning hours, so carts usually remain there for hours until the relief driver arrives.
This time however, something happened that the carts continued along the slope, bent on the sides, and crashed downtown. Either the brakes were insufficient for the degree of the slope, someone removed some or all of the brakes, or there was a malfunction with the locks between the locomotive and the carts.
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimage.vam.synacor.com.edgesuite.net%2F21%2F11%2F2ea37c2b1a2551baea7319650d2d96358397c340.jpeg&hash=f55a9de3c00739dd9bcbaaf551bae38ea096922b)
This is only a around the edge part of the perimeter.
If they had used anything near the safety measures that are standard for radioactive transports this wouldn't have happened. But different lives are valued differently.
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2F2mdmA1A.jpg&hash=6d9ad7c1e517b326d152438e0b8214e0c0b1205b)
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FojMgaC5.jpg&hash=94b92e55119d08506a1001ba518bb2284c30a63d)
Damn, what a disaster. :(
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/national/massive-explosions-strike-quebec-town-after-train-carrying-oil-derails/article13050578/
Quote
One dead, more fatalities likely after Quebec train explosions, fire
Sophie Cousineau, Justin Giovannetti and Les Perreaux
Lac-Mégantic, Que., and Montreal — The Globe and Mail
Published Saturday, Jul. 06 2013, 8:31 AM EDT
Last updated Sunday, Jul. 07 2013, 4:57 AM EDT
When the runaway ghost train rolled into the heart of town and detonated like a bomb, levelling the entire historic central district of pretty Lac-Mégantic, Que., survivors say that life or death depended on where you happened to be standing.
A day after the conflagration which destroyed at least 30 buildings, including a packed bar, apartments and all the town's archives, fire still raged. With one confirmed dead, hope was diminishing for dozens of people who remained missing. Medical officials reported almost no injuries. Those who failed to escape probably did not survive to seek treatment.
Many of those missing were indoors, such as the patrons of the Musi-Café bar who filled the building when 73 driverless train cars rolled in out of control at 1:15 a.m. ET Saturday morning.
Those who were outside when the train failed to negotiate a bend had a chance. Some survivors were out for a smoke. Some were going home after a enjoying a few drinks at a packed bar near the epicentre of the explosion. Others out for a stroll ended up running just a metre or two ahead of a river of fire – tons of burning crude oil flowing down city streets and into the lake.
So far, the Surêté du Québec is confirming only one death and refusing to validate reports that anywhere between 50 and 80 people are missing. An officer speaking on condition of anonymity Saturday afternoon told a Globe and Mail reporter he had 50 names on his list. Agence France-Presse put the number at 80.
In the final police briefing for Saturday, Lieutenant Guy Lapointe would say only: "There is one confirmed death. But we expect others."
Those who were on the scene when the immense fireball turned buildings into piles of ash have no doubt the death toll will be big.
" Everybody who didn't make it back is dead," predicted Frédérique Mailloux, a 38-year-old stay-at-home mom, who said six of her friends are missing. "I have cried every tear in my body."
Nearly two square kilometres of the downtown were razed, according to Fire Chief Denis Lauzon. "The scene is like one you see after a big forest fire. There are only parts of the buildings left, trees have been completely burnt, there is no grass left, the cars are charred. This is total destruction."
Earlier, provincial police Lt. Michel Brunet told a news conference: "Our investigators are trying to track down family members, so we can't give the identity of this (dead) person, but at this time we can confirm one person has died."
Mr. Brunet said authorities have been told "many" people have been reported missing.
"We're told some people are missing but they may just be out of town or on vacation," Mr. Brunet said.
"We're checking all that, so I can't tell you at the moment whether there are any victims or people who are injured."
Relatives in the tourist town of 6,000 full-time residents were already starting to grieve. At a community centre, Jacques Bolduc and Solange Gaudreault emerged after providing a DNA sample to potentially identify their son, Guy Bolduc, a 23-year-old singer who was performing at the bar.
"Our boy wanted so much to live," Mr. Bolduc told Radio-Canada. "The police told us there is no hope. The train exploded 30 feet from the (Musi-Café) bar."
Bernard Théberge, 44, a cook who lives on the outskirts of Lac-Mégantic, was out with his friends at the Musi-Café, one of the most popular hangouts in town and the last known whereabouts of many of the missing. The Musi-Café is a few metres from where the tracks cross Frontenac Street, Lac-Mégantic's main street.
Mr. Théberge was on the outside patio in front of the café smoking a cigarette when the derailment happened. He heard the train coming and knew right away that something was wrong.
"It was going way too fast," said Mr. Théberge. "I saw a wall of fire go up. People got up on the outside patio. I grabbed my bike, which was just on the railing of the terrasse. I started pedaling and then I stopped and turned around. I saw that there were all those people inside and I knew right away that it would be impossible for them to get out.
Mr. Théberge said he tried to go around front to help people escape "but there was just fire everywhere."
"I just pedaled away, but I know a lot of people didn't make it out. There were maybe 60 people inside. "This is a first. Smoking saved my life," he said with a voice raspy from the heat and smoke. His right arm was bandaged for the second-degree burns.
At a tent at the corner of Frontenac and Lemieux streets in the afternoon, paramedics sat idly in the torrid heat with no one to help. Residents gathered to await news of survivors, which never came.
Bernard Demers, who owns a restaurant in the town of 6,000, described the explosion as "an atomic bomb."
Charles Coue said he and his wife "felt the heat" from the explosion, which went off a couple of hundred metres from their home. The couple sprinted from their house in a panic.
City resident Claude Bedard described the scene as "dreadful."
With more than 2,000 local residents evacuated, Facebook pages are filled with messages from family members desperately looking for loved ones. Many of those still missing are young men and women who were out enjoying the nightlife on a warm summer night.
The centre of the town lies at the bottom of a hill. The train's owner, the Montreal Maine & Atlantic Railway, has confirmed the train stopped Friday night at a siding near Nantes, 12 kilometres to the west of Lac-Mégantic, for a routine shift change.
Mr. Lauzon, the fire chief, confirmed late Saturday that fire crews had been called to the train because of a fire that had broken out on board a locomotive. It's unclear what role the fire may have played in the crash.
The train's brakes and safety system were functional when the conductor left, according to company spokesman Christophe Journet. The conductor inspected the train and its load before leaving for a local hotel. A replacement crew was slated to come later during the night. Sometime before 1 a.m. ET, the train's load of 73 cars broke loose and began rolling downhill towards the small town. Before it reached Lac-Mégantic, the locomotive also broke free.
"Why the train's brakes stopped working, why it was left alone, we don't know," said Mr. Journet. Several witnesses said the train was racing when it arrived in town.
Volunteer firefighters kept up a constant stream of lake water to cool freight cars into early Sunday morning to prevent further explosions. The town's water supply was strained by a cracked water main located too close to the disaster zone to repair. Mayor Colette Roy-Laroche asked residents to use water sparingly.
Five of the cars loaded with crude oil were still considered at risk. More than 2,000 people were evacuated as Quebec's environment ministry has warned of toxic chemicals in the air.
Expressions of support poured in to the city, which were welcomed by the shaken mayor, Ms. Roy-Laroche. "As mayor, when you see the majority of your downtown destroyed like that, you'll understand we're asking how we're going to survive it," she said. "But we're getting very strong backing. It's appreciated."
Ms. Roy-Laroche noted she did not hear from train company executives.
Christian Paradis, a federal cabinet minister and the local MP, had lunch at the Musi-Café on Friday as he was touring his riding. "This is a huge hit for the city. We are going to need to pull together, roll up our sleeves and rebuild," he said.
Mr. Paradis is from the nearby Eastern Townships town of Thetford. He came back early Saturday and met people who were crying for lost relatives. "People are just trying to understand what happened."
Mr. Paradis spoke with Prime Minister Stephen Harper. "I told him it is ugly. I told him it is terrifying," he said.
Mr. Harper, who is planning to visit the Quebec community Sunday, called the disaster "shocking and truly devastating" during a news conference in Calgary Saturday. Earlier, the Prime Minister said in a statement that the "people of Lac-Mégantic and surrounding areas can rest assured that our government is monitoring the situation and we stand by ready to provide any assistance requested by the province."
Liberal Leader Justin Trudeau added: "My thoughts are with all the families who have had to be evacuated, and especially with all those who are searching for their loved ones."
In addition to the explosions and fire, a large but undetermined amount of fuel also reportedly spilled into the Chaudiere River, said Environment Quebec spokesman Christian Blanchette.
"Right now, there is big smoke in the air, so we have a mobile laboratory here to monitor the quality of the air," Mr. Blanchette said in an interview.
"We also have a spill on the lake and the river that is concerning us. We have advised the local municipalities downstream to be careful if they take their water from the Chaudiere River."
Lac-Mégantic is part of Quebec's picturesque Eastern Townships region, close to the border with Maine and Vermont.
Several neighbouring municipalities, including Sherbrooke and Saint-Georges-de-Beauce, were enlisted to help Lac-Mégantic deal with the disaster.
Emergency services south of the border were also lending a hand.
A fleet of fire trucks were deployed from northern Maine, according to a spokesman at the sheriff's office in Franklin County.
-With files from the Canadian Press
Is this another attack by the followers of the religion of peace?
Quote from: Siege on July 07, 2013, 07:28:17 AM
Is this another attack by the followers of the religion of peace?
In a town of 1000?
Quote from: Siege on July 07, 2013, 07:28:17 AM
Is this another attack by the followers of the religion of peace?
I don't think Buddhists had anything to do with it.
Now 5 people are confirmed dead, and over fourty people are still reported missing. Family members were asked to supplies DNA samples of the people still missing to make identification easier. Not good. :(
Quote from: Drakken on July 07, 2013, 11:20:37 AM
Now 5 people are confirmed dead, and over fourty people are still reported missing. Family members were asked to supplies DNA samples of the people still missing to make identification easier. Not good. :(
Oh god damn. That image in my head....make it go away. :weep:
A bunch of pictures:
http://www.spiq.ca/v2/ailleurs/2013_07_06_Lac-Megantic/index.html
Quote from: viper37 on July 07, 2013, 03:08:08 PM
A bunch of pictures:
http://www.spiq.ca/v2/ailleurs/2013_07_06_Lac-Megantic/index.html
Jesus Christ! Surely there are more than 5 people dead... Entire houses were blown away!
G.
As of tonight the fire has been declared extinguished.
Saw that the library was a rather historic one, and everything was lost. Damned shame.
Seems like there are another 40 still unaccounted for. :(
http://www.thestar.com/news/canada/2013/07/07/lac_megantic_hospital_eerily_quiet_after_quebec_explosion.html
Quote from: Grallon on July 07, 2013, 07:43:45 PM
Quote from: viper37 on July 07, 2013, 03:08:08 PM
A bunch of pictures:
http://www.spiq.ca/v2/ailleurs/2013_07_06_Lac-Megantic/index.html
Jesus Christ! Surely there are more than 5 people dead... Entire houses were blown away!
G.
most likely, yes. But we have to wait for the authorities to recover the bodies and notify the families... Right now, it's 40 people missing, most likely casualties. :(
How much of the bodies are gonna be left after a fire like that?
Quote from: jimmy olsen on July 08, 2013, 01:02:03 AM
How much of the bodies are gonna be left after a fire like that?
Hence the DNA quote. I´m happy that I never chose that particular line of work.
Quote from: Drakken on July 07, 2013, 11:20:37 AM
Now 5 people are confirmed dead, and over fourty people are still reported missing. Family members were asked to supplies DNA samples of the people still missing to make identification easier. Not good. :(
:(
I hope that people will learn from this & stop being against the damn pipeline.
The company is sure not helping itself. First, their web site is in english only. Then they have press release in english only all over the week-end. On Monday morning they use Google Translate for their press release. Morons.
Sunday, a video surfaced on Youtube, showing a train from the same company, not far from the blast zone. Train is stopped with all wagons , engine is running and the doors are unlocked...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oOwPYr38A1c
We know a little more about the accident.
2hrs before the accident, the firemen from the next city were called to extinguish a fire in one of the locomotives. A representative of the company was there and assured the firemen everything was ok, after which they left. Then the MM&A guys left too, leaving the train unattended. Shortly after, the air brakes were released and the train started moving by itself.
This is standard procedure apparently.
Wtf is that kind of standard procedure to leave such a train unattended after a fire???
Quote from: viper37 on July 08, 2013, 09:25:59 AM
Wtf is that kind of standard procedure to leave such a train unattended after a fire???
:yeahright: Would you be asking that question if that train didn't level the whole town?
Quote from: DGuller on July 08, 2013, 09:30:02 AM
:yeahright: Would you be asking that question if that train didn't level the whole town?
I would never have heard of it...
Quote from: viper37 on July 08, 2013, 09:25:59 AM
We know a little more about the accident.
2hrs before the accident, the firemen from the next city were called to extinguish a fire in one of the locomotives. A representative of the company was there and assured the firemen everything was ok, after which they left. Then the MM&A guys left too, leaving the train unattended. Shortly after, the air brakes were released and the train started moving by itself.
This is standard procedure apparently.
Wtf is that kind of standard procedure to leave such a train unattended after a fire???
Waiting to find out if they can figure how the brakes released. How secure are the trains I wonder? Can they be properly secured from break ins? And if someone unauthorized does get in, is there any security or keys or what ever that would prevent them from accessing the train's systems?
So if the train cockpits and controls are accessible to unauthorized entry, could this have been a type of planned out terrorist attack? Last week there was a case of someone in Canada caught before he could commit an act, a bomb I think, as I forget the details.
Terrorism has been ruled out by the police. First, it's a small city of about 6000 people, and that includes summer residents.
Negligence and sabotage are on the table for now, but it doesn't look good for the company. Even if it's sabotage, if they left their train unatended and unlocked... well...
The Sureté du Québec has revised the provisional death toll of the accident: we are now at 13 confirmed deaths and about 50 missing. While officially, they are awaiting the results of their investigation to confirm 50 more dead people, by now, on the 3rd day, if the people living in the area haven't given any news to their family, friends, significant other...
Oh boy. I'm getting hyper emotional with this.
Looks like the cause is becoming clear
http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/world/2013/07/08/40-still-missing-in-deadly-canada-oil-train-crash/2497875/
QuoteBrakes had been disabled in fatal oil train crash
Quebec town is bracing for rising death toll as firefighters reach hardest hit areas.
The air brakes on the runaway oil train that devastated a Quebec town early Saturday had been disabled by firefighters who were called to extinguish a blaze aboard one of the locomotives 90 minutes before the disaster, the head of the railway said Monday.
The news came as authorities recovered eight more bodies from the devastation in Lac-Megantic, raising the death toll to 13, with about 40 people still missing and feared dead.
The train exploded in a series of fireballs after it careened eight miles down a sloping siding and derailed about 1 a.m. ET Saturday. All but one of the 73 tanker cars were carrying crude oil from North Dakota to a refinery in New Brunswick, and at least five exploded.
Volunteer firefighters in nearby Nantes had been called about 11:30 p.m. Friday to extinguish a blaze in one of the five locomotives, Fire Chief Patrick Lambert told The Montreal Gazette.
He told Reuters that firefighters had shut down the locomotive while they battled the fire, which was apparently caused by a broken oil or fuel line. But the train's crew had left the engine idling to keep the air brakes pressurized so the train wouldn't roll, said Ed Burkhardt, chairman of Montreal, Maine & Atlantic Railway.
Lambert said the local railway dispatcher was contacted to report the engine fire had been put out. "We told them what we did and how we did it," he said.
"There was no discussion of the brakes at that time," he added. "We were there for the train fire. As for the inspection of the train after the fact, that was up to them."
What the dispatcher did after speaking with the Nantes fire service was not immediately clear. Burkhardt said that if the engine had been shut down, "someone should have made a report to the local railroad about that." He said the train's operator was staying at a nearby hotel.
Andre Gendron, who lives next to the rail yard, told Reuters that about five minutes after firefighters left, "I felt the vibration of a train moving down the track. I then saw the train move by without its lights on."
"It wasn't long after that I heard the explosion," he said.
As searchers slowly worked their way through the smoldering devastation Monday, firefighters doused two oil-filled cars with water and foam to keep them from overheating and exploding.
Many of those missing were believed to have been drinking at a popular downtown bar in the lakeside town of 6,000, near the Maine border. Crews had not yet reached the night spot, Quebec provincial police Sgt. Benoit Richard said Monday morning.
Anne-Julie Huot, 27, said at least five friends and about 20 acquaintances remained unaccounted for.
"I have a friend who was smoking outside the bar when it happened, and she barely got away, so we can guess what happened to the people inside," Huot said. "It's like a nightmare."
A coroner's spokeswoman said it may not be possible to recover some of the bodies because of the intensity of the blasts. Spokeswoman Geneviève Guilbault said the bodies are so badly burned that identifying them could take a long time.
The explosion and flames forced about a third of the community of 6,000 from their homes. About 1,500 may be able to return home Tuesday, authorities said.
Fire fighters here have training in dealing with train accidents and I'm positive they would know that if they turned off the engine they'd disable the air brakes. Somebody must've and should've know about this.
Quote from: Liep on July 09, 2013, 03:59:33 AM
Fire fighters here have training in dealing with train accidents and I'm positive they would know that if they turned off the engine they'd disable the air brakes. Somebody must've and should've know about this.
Not necessarily. These were volunteer firefighters. They don't always get the training.
Although, I still don't understand why the train was left unattended; I've been doing some research on rail since I've applied for a couple of trainee programs recently, and I haven't seen any reason why a HAZMAT train would be left unattended during downtime. Then again, that's why Americans hate unions.
If not the fire fighters, it still sounds incredible that there was no one checking the train after a fire.
Here it's strictly verboten to leave a train unattended with only air brakes on anyway, hazmat or not.
Quote from: Liep on July 09, 2013, 05:36:07 AM
Here it's strictly verboten to leave a train unattended with only air brakes on anyway, hazmat or not.
No kidding. I mean, if the engine is running simply to keep the air brakes energized, it's technically still in service, right? That's what I don't get.
Yeah, the whole thing of leaving the train running for the brakes to be on, leaving it unattended, seems risky, waiting for trouble. Double that especially after an engine fire. Just for the fire you'd think a railroad rep or someone was there to secure things. Hard to tell from the article and all info isn't in yet. How about other brakes, on all locamotives, or on some of the train cars, if the train is going to be left unattended for a while? It sounds like one set of brakes failed when an engine was shut down. But have to wait for more info.
Yeah, it certainly seems like some safety codes and practices need updating.
While the firefighters and railway company and conductor each may have some measure of responsibility in terms of negligence, it really seems like there should be some safety measures and procedures in place, backed by the force of law.
If such procedures exist and weren't followed, then culpability is pretty easy to assign. If not, then the real issue is that they didn't exist IMO.
Leaving the train running to keep the brakes energized doesn't make sense at all. Air brakes on a train operate by negative pressure, when there is no air in the line the train is stopped. It's a safety feature so that when the brake line is cut the train stops.
Quote from: Savonarola on July 09, 2013, 01:55:04 PM
Leaving the train running to keep the brakes energized doesn't make sense at all. Air brakes on a train operate by negative pressure, when there is no air in the line the train is stopped. It's a safety feature so that when the brake line is cut the train stops.
Yeah, now that I think about it, it makes absolutely no sense. You would think that any system to critical to the operation would default to a safe mode in case of a power loss.
The Transportation Safety Board has contradicted the company's CEO.
MMA employee's were present while the firefighter extinguished the fire, and they're the one who said the engine was to be cut off.
MMA employee's gave the firefighters the go ahead saying everything was under control. Then they left. They never tried to reach the engineer who parked his train.
Even if the air brake had been released, there are other breaks, manually activated, on the train wagons. These obviously did not work.
Aside that... the train was left unattended on the main railway, not the secondary one. Had it been on the other way, it would have crasched in the sand instead of the city.
Trying to shift the blame on a small team of volunteer firefighters... that's so classy. Dumbass company.
Quote from: Savonarola on July 09, 2013, 01:55:04 PM
Leaving the train running to keep the brakes energized doesn't make sense at all. Air brakes on a train operate by negative pressure, when there is no air in the line the train is stopped. It's a safety feature so that when the brake line is cut the train stops.
Yes, loss of pressure activates the brakes, but slow leakage does not activate the brakes which is why they can never be used as parking brakes.
Quote from: viper37 on July 09, 2013, 02:14:39 PM
...
Trying to shift the blame on a small team of volunteer firefighters... that's so classy. Dumbass company.
What can you expect from a private corporation on its financial death throes? Capitalist scumbags... Unless heavily supervised and regulated - private companies will *always* try to cut corners in orders to increase the profit margin. <_<
G.
Quote from: Grallon on July 09, 2013, 07:09:52 PM
Quote from: viper37 on July 09, 2013, 02:14:39 PM
...
Trying to shift the blame on a small team of volunteer firefighters... that's so classy. Dumbass company.
What can you expect from a private corporation on its financial death throes? Capitalist scumbags... Unless heavily supervised and regulated - private companies will *always* try to cut corners in orders to increase the profit margin. <_<
G.
Meanwhile governmental agencies will always run things smoothly and efficiently.
Didn't we have 2 or 3 overpass collapsing in the last few years? Didn't the government try to put the blame on the private company doing the repairs in one case, while they were simply following the directives given?
20 confirmed dead, another 30 presumed so. :(
http://worldnews.nbcnews.com/_news/2013/07/10/19396092-death-toll-at-50-as-30-missing-now-presumed-dead-in-quebec-train-crash-engineer-suspended?lite
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FOQnLZhQ.jpg&hash=82dcfd710f18970a2dfcf2286286c4e4d972bb57)
The latest from the company is that their guy did not set the required number of hand-brakes like he was supposed to.
Quote from: Malthus on July 11, 2013, 07:45:42 AM
The latest from the company is that their guy did not set the required number of hand-brakes like he was supposed to.
First, it was the firefighters fault. Then it's the driver's fault.
the driver was experienced, and he was driving this run many times a week. I don't buy it. Someone that experienced doesn't make that kind of mistake.
In the minutes following the explosion, the driver rushed to the scene, borrowed a tractor from a local shop and towed a few of the unexploded wagons away from the fire.
I think it's premature to blame him.
Quote from: viper37 on July 11, 2013, 08:51:01 AM
Quote from: Malthus on July 11, 2013, 07:45:42 AM
The latest from the company is that their guy did not set the required number of hand-brakes like he was supposed to.
First, it was the firefighters fault. Then it's the driver's fault.
the driver was experienced, and he was driving this run many times a week. I don't buy it. Someone that experienced doesn't make that kind of mistake.
In the minutes following the explosion, the driver rushed to the scene, borrowed a tractor from a local shop and towed a few of the unexploded wagons away from the fire.
I think it's premature to blame him.
Not saying I believe it, either.
However, seems logical it has to be either: (1) the people who last handled the train (the driver, the firefighters) doing something wrong; (2) deliberate sabotage; or (3) equipment failure.
(3) seems unlikely to me, because if the handbrakes were set, there ought to be redundancy (that is, several of them have to fail at the same time).
(2) is of course possible, but there is no evidence I've heard so far. Presumably, it could be as simple as someone going around and undoing all the hand brakes. Are they locked in some way? I don't know. Given the near-total incineration of the cars carrying the oil, it may be very difficult to determine what happened.
Does it have to be one thing? The driver could've been fucking up for years, reducing the redundancy in the train's safety systems. Add an unusual element to the mix (like fire, or just a part failure), and those redundancies became saturated, and off went the train.
Quote from: DGuller on July 11, 2013, 09:04:14 AM
Does it have to be one thing? The driver could've been fucking up for years, reducing the redundancy in the train's safety systems. Add an unusual element to the mix (like fire, or just a part failure), and those redundancies became saturated, and off went the train.
That's true, and in fact I'm betting it is a combination of factors like you say, but it assumes as a condition that the driver in fact didn't set the required number of hand brakes.
Quote from: DGuller on July 11, 2013, 09:04:14 AM
Does it have to be one thing? The driver could've been fucking up for years, reducing the redundancy in the train's safety systems. Add an unusual element to the mix (like fire, or just a part failure), and those redundancies became saturated, and off went the train.
Yeah, a subpar number of handbreaks is likely good enough when the airbreaks are engaged. However, in this case you had the unusual circumstances of the firefighters shutting down the train, which meant the airbreaks would eventually give out. So years of half-assing it finally caught up with him.
Quote from: Malthus on July 11, 2013, 08:58:31 AM
Quote from: viper37 on July 11, 2013, 08:51:01 AM
Quote from: Malthus on July 11, 2013, 07:45:42 AM
The latest from the company is that their guy did not set the required number of hand-brakes like he was supposed to.
First, it was the firefighters fault. Then it's the driver's fault.
the driver was experienced, and he was driving this run many times a week. I don't buy it. Someone that experienced doesn't make that kind of mistake.
In the minutes following the explosion, the driver rushed to the scene, borrowed a tractor from a local shop and towed a few of the unexploded wagons away from the fire.
I think it's premature to blame him.
Not saying I believe it, either.
However, seems logical it has to be either: (1) the people who last handled the train (the driver, the firefighters) doing something wrong; (2) deliberate sabotage; or (3) equipment failure.
(3) seems unlikely to me, because if the handbrakes were set, there ought to be redundancy (that is, several of them have to fail at the same time).
(2) is of course possible, but there is no evidence I've heard so far. Presumably, it could be as simple as someone going around and undoing all the hand brakes. Are they locked in some way? I don't know. Given the near-total incineration of the cars carrying the oil, it may be very difficult to determine what happened.
Here is a good chronology about what happenned. It's in French, but use Google translate for the short texts in the animation and you should get the jist of it:
http://www.journaldemontreal.com/lacmegantic (http://www.journaldemontreal.com/lacmegantic)
One thing to note is that the driver was never told his locomotive was on fire. The CEO of Railword (owner of MMA) claims it was the firefighters responsibility to find him and bring him on site.
We know that someone from MMA was there, we know they were informed of the fire. The employee present was not an engineer, it was not the train's driver.
I believe older trains needed the engine running for the air brakes to work, contrary to what we have now (engine stops, breaks are applied). It does seem strange to me, however. I don't know much about trains, but on our big trucks, the air brakes system haven't changed since the 70s at least. Now, on trains, I don't know...
What could have happened is that company procedures might require one brake/10 wagons, wich is sufficient when combined with the locomotive's air breaks. If the driver followed the standard procedure and the breaks on the locomotive stopped working, then the other manual train brakes were insufficient.
These manual breaks aren't locked in anyway, anyone could remove them. So sabotage could still be on the table.
Quote from: jimmy olsen on July 11, 2013, 09:15:23 AM
Yeah, a subpar number of handbreaks is likely good enough when the airbreaks are engaged. However, in this case you had the unusual circumstances of the firefighters shutting down the train, which meant the airbreaks would eventually give out. So years of half-assing it finally caught up with him.
But if it's years of half-assing by the driver, it's the company's responsibility.
One fluke, you can't predict it. But regular "half-assing", the company should have procedures to identify this and to correct it.
QuoteOne thing to note is that the driver was never told his locomotive was on fire. The CEO of Railword (owner of MMA) claims it was the firefighters responsibility to find him and bring him on site.
We know that someone from MMA was there, we know they were informed of the fire. The employee present was not an engineer, it was not the train's driver.
This sounds to me like the driver wasn't likely responsible, if this is as reported, then he had nothing to do with securing the train after the fire. Why wouldn't the company find him? How would the fire fighters know who to contact? I would think the company can call or page the engineer.
Seeing those pics of the town, I'm shocked at the before and after pics of the town center! Huge destruction of buildings for two or three streets into the center of town! :(
Quote from: viper37 on July 11, 2013, 10:33:58 AM
Quote from: Malthus on July 11, 2013, 08:58:31 AM
Quote from: viper37 on July 11, 2013, 08:51:01 AM
Quote from: Malthus on July 11, 2013, 07:45:42 AM
The latest from the company is that their guy did not set the required number of hand-brakes like he was supposed to.
First, it was the firefighters fault. Then it's the driver's fault.
the driver was experienced, and he was driving this run many times a week. I don't buy it. Someone that experienced doesn't make that kind of mistake.
In the minutes following the explosion, the driver rushed to the scene, borrowed a tractor from a local shop and towed a few of the unexploded wagons away from the fire.
I think it's premature to blame him.
Not saying I believe it, either.
However, seems logical it has to be either: (1) the people who last handled the train (the driver, the firefighters) doing something wrong; (2) deliberate sabotage; or (3) equipment failure.
(3) seems unlikely to me, because if the handbrakes were set, there ought to be redundancy (that is, several of them have to fail at the same time).
(2) is of course possible, but there is no evidence I've heard so far. Presumably, it could be as simple as someone going around and undoing all the hand brakes. Are they locked in some way? I don't know. Given the near-total incineration of the cars carrying the oil, it may be very difficult to determine what happened.
Here is a good chronology about what happenned. It's in French, but use Google translate for the short texts in the animation and you should get the jist of it:
http://www.journaldemontreal.com/lacmegantic (http://www.journaldemontreal.com/lacmegantic)
One thing to note is that the driver was never told his locomotive was on fire. The CEO of Railword (owner of MMA) claims it was the firefighters responsibility to find him and bring him on site.
We know that someone from MMA was there, we know they were informed of the fire. The employee present was not an engineer, it was not the train's driver.
I believe older trains needed the engine running for the air brakes to work, contrary to what we have now (engine stops, breaks are applied). It does seem strange to me, however. I don't know much about trains, but on our big trucks, the air brakes system haven't changed since the 70s at least. Now, on trains, I don't know...
What could have happened is that company procedures might require one brake/10 wagons, wich is sufficient when combined with the locomotive's air breaks. If the driver followed the standard procedure and the breaks on the locomotive stopped working, then the other manual train brakes were insufficient.
These manual breaks aren't locked in anyway, anyone could remove them. So sabotage could still be on the table.
It makes no sense to me to have
two completely independant systems (air brakes and hand brakes) and have it as standard procedure that, if one of those systems fails, the other one isn't set strongly enough to work. If the company set that up as standard procedure, seems clearly negligent on their part to me.
Quote from: viper37 on July 11, 2013, 10:42:38 AM
Quote from: jimmy olsen on July 11, 2013, 09:15:23 AM
Yeah, a subpar number of handbreaks is likely good enough when the airbreaks are engaged. However, in this case you had the unusual circumstances of the firefighters shutting down the train, which meant the airbreaks would eventually give out. So years of half-assing it finally caught up with him.
But if it's years of half-assing by the driver, it's the company's responsibility.
One fluke, you can't predict it. But regular "half-assing", the company should have procedures to identify this and to correct it.
Depends on whether you are talking civil or criminal responsibility. There is an ongoing criminal investigation.
Civilly, the company would be on the hook for damages based on the notion of vicarious liability (I am assuming that is true under Civil Law) - that is, where an employee commits a tort in the course of his or her employment in doing what is clearly part of his of her job, the company is liable for those acts for damages. Really, the question is whether it is covered by the company's insurer. There is no need to prove that the company was at fault directly, as all acts within the sphere of what an employee is supposed to be doing as part of his or her job are imputed to the company.
Criminally, it is a different story. There, there are likely to be charges based on criminal negligence. I don't know how those would apply, but I suspect they cannot apply vicariously; that is, I assume the individuals and entities must be held directly responsible.
The difficulty in this case is that the railways went from having two crew members to having one. This guy was a person with many years of experience. If he was 'half-assing', no doubt he knew exactly how to get away with it on a routine basis.
Quote from: KRonn on July 11, 2013, 10:50:48 AM
Seeing those pics of the town, I'm shocked at the before and after pics of the town center! Huge destruction of buildings for two or three streets into the center of town! :(
Yeah, it's like the place went through a bombing raid in WW2. :(
Quote from: KRonn on July 11, 2013, 10:49:50 AM
QuoteOne thing to note is that the driver was never told his locomotive was on fire. The CEO of Railword (owner of MMA) claims it was the firefighters responsibility to find him and bring him on site.
We know that someone from MMA was there, we know they were informed of the fire. The employee present was not an engineer, it was not the train's driver.
This sounds to me like the driver wasn't likely responsible, if this is as reported, then he had nothing to do with securing the train after the fire. Why wouldn't the company find him? How would the fire fighters know who to contact? I would think the company can call or page the engineer.
The problem alleged is that the hand-brakes were not set sufficiently. Each car in the train has hand brakes. A certain amount need to be set - manually - by climbing into each car and physically turning the wheel.
A possible scenario is that everyone on the scene assumed that the driver set the hand brakes correctly before he checked in for the night. However, perhaps he'd gotten slack, and didn't bother, at the end of a long shift, to set as many of them as he was supposed to - knowing that the air brakes would be on also. With the fire, the air brakes were shut down. The people on the scene didn't attach any importance to that, because of course the hand brakes would keep the train in place; if they had contacted the driver, he may have realized 'oh shit, I didn't actually secure those brakes properly - better do that now!', but they didn't.
In that scenario, both the driver and the guys on the scene were guilty of negligence - the driver for not setting the brakes properly, and the guys on the scene, for not asking the driver if he did. But of the two, the driver was more at fault.
By the way, has any news emerged as to what started the fire on the locomotive in the first place?
Quote from: Malthus on July 11, 2013, 02:08:46 PM
By the way, has any news emerged as to what started the fire on the locomotive in the first place?
Yes, it was an oil leak according to the taxi driver who came to get the engineer. Oil was sprinkling.
The Nantes firefighter were at their fourth extinguished fire on MMA trains since 2006.