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The Off Topic Topic

Started by Korea, March 10, 2009, 06:24:26 AM

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Tonitrus

Quote from: Grey Fox on December 05, 2022, 07:10:40 AMToo bad CC is avoiding us but he could talk to us about is Ioniq 5.

I am getting along ok with my EV.  I don't have a Level 2 charger at home (just a regular plug-in within reach of the carport), and only get 2 miles range/hour, but that is enough to make up for the daily commute usually with some left over.  It's also an old 1950's military house, with free utilities...so free fueling.

Taking it on its first major road trip (up home to Seattle) in a couple weeks though...will see how that goes.  The major anecdotal complaints with the non-Tesla's over here is the severely-lacking charging network (and all the technical problems with the ones that do exist).

FunkMonk

In my recent history graduate studies I took a seminar on World War II and I was pleasantly surprised that there wasn't anything like studying orders of battle or critiquing the decisions of individual commanders. It was mainly reading and discussing the war's impact on society (and vice versa), race, economics, how soldiers experienced the war, and how nations remembered the war.

It was a good course  :)
Person. Woman. Man. Camera. TV.

Valmy

Quote from: FunkMonk on December 05, 2022, 08:21:18 PMIn my recent history graduate studies I took a seminar on World War II and I was pleasantly surprised that there wasn't anything like studying orders of battle or critiquing the decisions of individual commanders.

I am amazed you thought it would be looking at that stuff, given my own experience with history graduate school and what Oex mentioned above. I would be shocked if it WAS about that stuff. Now granted those kinds of primary sources are really important because so much of what we think we know about a war is often colored by propaganda and self-congratulatory memoirs of generals. Much of what nations remember about the war are lies and a close study of the actual military campaigns can help untangle that and help correct the often politically damaging long term impacts of that propaganda. But that kind of intense study of primary sources is something that takes years of work and is beyond a graduate studies seminar.

Quote"This is a Russian warship. I propose you lay down arms and surrender to avoid bloodshed & unnecessary victims. Otherwise, you'll be bombed."

Zmiinyi defenders: "Russian warship, go fuck yourself."

FunkMonk

Quote from: Valmy on December 05, 2022, 11:20:19 PM
Quote from: FunkMonk on December 05, 2022, 08:21:18 PMIn my recent history graduate studies I took a seminar on World War II and I was pleasantly surprised that there wasn't anything like studying orders of battle or critiquing the decisions of individual commanders.

I am amazed you thought it would be looking at that stuff, given my own experience with history graduate school and what Oex mentioned above. I would be shocked if it WAS about that stuff. Now granted those kinds of primary sources are really important because so much of what we think we know about a war is often colored by propaganda and self-congratulatory memoirs of generals. Much of what nations remember about the war are lies and a close study of the actual military campaigns can help untangle that and help correct the often politically damaging long term impacts of that propaganda. But that kind of intense study of primary sources is something that takes years of work and is beyond a graduate studies seminar.



Yeah, I quite liked the seminar and the professor. So much so I took his course on Civil-Military relations a couple of semesters later.  That was quite a lot of fun too :D
Person. Woman. Man. Camera. TV.

Valmy

Quote from: FunkMonk on December 05, 2022, 11:29:31 PMSo much so I took his course on Civil-Military relations a couple of semesters later.

Ooooh. Now that is a juicy topic.
Quote"This is a Russian warship. I propose you lay down arms and surrender to avoid bloodshed & unnecessary victims. Otherwise, you'll be bombed."

Zmiinyi defenders: "Russian warship, go fuck yourself."

The Brain

Quote from: FunkMonk on December 05, 2022, 08:21:18 PMIn my recent history graduate studies I took a seminar on World War II and I was pleasantly surprised that there wasn't anything like studying orders of battle or critiquing the decisions of individual commanders. It was mainly reading and discussing the war's impact on society (and vice versa), race, economics, how soldiers experienced the war, and how nations remembered the war.

It was a good course  :)

What did they say about the causes of the war, how the war could have been avoided, and what made the winning side win?
Women want me. Men want to be with me.

Sheilbh

Quote from: Oexmelin on December 05, 2022, 02:25:38 PMBoth of these things are linked to a similar thing, but with different effect: presentism. Caveat: this is mostly based on my experience in US and Canadian institutions. Europe may be different. I should ask ex-Mrs Oex. 
Thanks - that's interesting.

That all makes sense. I can also see given the current situation in Europe how there could be a gap.
Let's bomb Russia!

Sheilbh

Quote from: FunkMonk on December 05, 2022, 08:21:18 PMIn my recent history graduate studies I took a seminar on World War II and I was pleasantly surprised that there wasn't anything like studying orders of battle or critiquing the decisions of individual commanders. It was mainly reading and discussing the war's impact on society (and vice versa), race, economics, how soldiers experienced the war, and how nations remembered the war.

It was a good course  :)
Yeah I should say I don't think any of it would be of any interest to me. I've never read military history and it doesn't really appeal.

But I find the wider context and how things are memorialised or become myths etc interesting.

However in Europe at the minute when we're looking at a war and something maybe a bit like state formation going on, I can see how suddenly discovering you don't have many academic historians who are specialised in those areas is a problem. But, of course, that it's a problem actually reinforces the issue Oex is talking about because it's a presentist use of history to help understand or contextualise the present - so maybe that is difficult to escape.
Let's bomb Russia!

FunkMonk

Quote from: Valmy on December 05, 2022, 11:44:15 PM
Quote from: FunkMonk on December 05, 2022, 11:29:31 PMSo much so I took his course on Civil-Military relations a couple of semesters later.

Ooooh. Now that is a juicy topic.

It was really interesting because it was less "History" and more Political Science. One of the readings introduced some relatively basic models with algebra. I come from an economics background so I didn't have a problem with it but most of the class just died  :lol:
Person. Woman. Man. Camera. TV.

FunkMonk

Quote from: The Brain on December 06, 2022, 02:22:29 AM
Quote from: FunkMonk on December 05, 2022, 08:21:18 PMIn my recent history graduate studies I took a seminar on World War II and I was pleasantly surprised that there wasn't anything like studying orders of battle or critiquing the decisions of individual commanders. It was mainly reading and discussing the war's impact on society (and vice versa), race, economics, how soldiers experienced the war, and how nations remembered the war.

It was a good course  :)

What did they say about the causes of the war, how the war could have been avoided, and what made the winning side win?

There were no direct readings of the causes of the war. We touched on it briefly in random discussions. We did have a few readings and discussions on the causes of the Allied and Soviet victory. We read Overy, Tooze, and someone else, along with academic journal articles. Basic graduate seminar stuff.
Person. Woman. Man. Camera. TV.

Josquius

Real first they came for the gays stuff unfolding in Indonesia....

BBC News - Indonesia passes criminal code banning sex outside marriage
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-63869078
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Oexmelin

Quote from: Sheilbh on December 06, 2022, 03:43:40 AMHowever in Europe at the minute when we're looking at a war and something maybe a bit like state formation going on, I can see how suddenly discovering you don't have many academic historians who are specialised in those areas is a problem. But, of course, that it's a problem actually reinforces the issue Oex is talking about because it's a presentist use of history to help understand or contextualise the present - so maybe that is difficult to escape.

As I briefly mentioned, I don't think a presentist mindset is a bad thing. I do think it is inescapable. History has to be relevant, in some way at least, in order to be something else than antiquarianism. Academic history for history's sake only works if you have, at least, a sort of societal commitment outside of university to make history present or relevant. I don't think that is the case very much today - with few notable exceptions. I think we are in times that are really "present-focused", where the future is bleak, and the past is seen as having little to teach us.

What I think has changed is that universities used to have a broad commitment to covering certain periods, or places, or at least, some institutional brakes that made it so you at least had some kind of canonical places and times periods represented. It was much easier when most history was in fact European / Western history. When most (medium-to-big) history departments (in English Canada / the US) had a specialist in German History, Italian History, French History, medieval history (that was usually UK), etc., it was easier to mix and match time periods. Your German historian maybe rooted in the early modern period (and teach the Reformation), while your Italian historian would be a specialist in fascism. Or vice-versa. Now, these positions have been merged into a single "European" historian, and you now have historians of China, of Japan, of the Ottoman Empire, of Indigenous people, of African-American history. Again, not a bad thing.

My main concern (aside from institutional pressures around hiring) is really about the impoverishment of the historical imagination / curiosity among historians. In the bad old days, you'd really be "stuck" with your colleagues on your university campus; they would be the ones with whom you'd strike a conversation, discuss your latest writing, etc. They'd know little of your specialization; you'd know little of theirs - and you'd at least be exposed to different times and places (and concepts). Now, because email and easy plane travel (and now Zoom), you can stick to people who are really within your niche subfield, and never bother with topics and scholars who are really outside of it. I think it does a tremendous disservice to the profession (and its relevance).

To some extent, I vaguely feel the British system maintains *some* of that collegiality between people of different specializations (at least, that's what I get from colleagues) - even if it's not immune to these trends either. And there are still quite a bit of curious, quirky people out there, fortunately.
Que le grand cric me croque !

viper37

Quote from: FunkMonk on December 05, 2022, 08:21:18 PMIn my recent history graduate studies I took a seminar on World War II and I was pleasantly surprised that there wasn't anything like studying orders of battle or critiquing the decisions of individual commanders. It was mainly reading and discussing the war's impact on society (and vice versa), race, economics, how soldiers experienced the war, and how nations remembered the war.

It was a good course  :)
That kind of stuff would likely be taught in a military history course, where particular strategies and tactics are discussed and analyzed.

I would expect a military college, not a regular university to teach such subjects.
I don't do meditation.  I drink alcohol to relax, like normal people.

If Microsoft Excel decided to stop working overnight, the world would practically end.

Syt

I am, somehow, less interested in the weight and convolutions of Einstein's brain than in the near certainty that people of equal talent have lived and died in cotton fields and sweatshops.
—Stephen Jay Gould

Proud owner of 42 Zoupa Points.

The Minsky Moment

Quote from: Oexmelin on December 05, 2022, 02:25:38 PMthe rural economy of England in the 17th century.

Not directly responsive, but seems to me that the rural economy of England in the 17th century has present relevance in terms of demographics, disruptions to traditional work patterns, religious radicalism, political polarization . . .

Relevance is not always a function of chronological closeness.
The purpose of studying economics is not to acquire a set of ready-made answers to economic questions, but to learn how to avoid being deceived by economists.
--Joan Robinson