http://www.voanews.com/content/human-rights-watch-warns-of-authoritarian-drift-in-turkey/2466105.html
QuoteHuman Rights Watch Warns of 'Authoritarian Drift' in Turkey
ISTANBUL— Human Rights Watch has warned that Turkey is drifting towards authoritarianism. The U.S.-based group claims in a new report that the rule of law in being eroded under President Recep Tayyip Erdogan -- who, it says, has launched a crackdown on dissent and media freedom.
The 38-page Human Rights Watch report said President Erdogan and the ruling Justice and Development Party were taking far reaching steps to weaken the rule of law, control the media and Internet, and clamp down on critics and protesters. The report's author, Emma Sinclair Webb, Human Rights Watch senior Turkey researcher, said the changes were deeply worrying.
"Basically over the last year, we've seen the Turkish government respond to political opposition with an extremely heavy handed approach, which is basically willing to sacrifice the rule of law, to erode judicial independence and really tear up the rule book and wield the stick against political oppositionists," said Webb.
The report said the rolling back of human rights accelerated after last year's nationwide anti-government protests against Prime Minister Erdogan, who was elected president in August.
President Erdogan insisted the protests had little to do with democratic dissent, but were rather a coup attempt. Sinclair Webb said that since the unrest, there has been a crackdown on the media and the introduction of draconian laws controlling the Internet, along with widespread prosecutions.
"There are some very serious prosecutions of protestors, for even attempting a coup against the government. They face a possible life imprisonment. So you have still got the crackdown against the Gezi protestors continuing, a year on. And very little justice for those who were victims of the massive police violence during the Gezi protests," said Webb.
The report also highlighted what it says is the steady undermining of the rule of law. It cited last December's anti-corruption probe by the judiciary targeting senior ministers and their families. The government said it was an attempt to overthrow it and pushed through parliament legislation giving it special powers to exercise more control over the judiciary. Much of the legislation was later overturned by the Constitutional Court.
Sinclair Webb warned that the government was encroaching on the powers of the judiciary on a massive scale.
"They want to be able to control judicial appointments, and they basically have shown signs of wanting to have prosecutors and judges who simply do the government's bidding and simply act according to the government's interests. Once you start creating a judiciary who does that, you lose all independence of the judiciary and fundamentally undermine the rule of law," said Webb.
The government insists that special powers are needed because the country is facing an unprecedented threat to democracy. President Erdogan claims that a parallel state run by followers of a former ally, Muslim cleric Fetullah Gulen, is seeking to overthrow him. Gulen, who lives in self-imposed exile in the United States, denies the allegations.
Human Rights Watch did praise the government for its efforts to end the three-decade conflict with the Kurdish rebel group, the PKK. The report highlighted government reforms giving minorities greater rights. But it warned that peace efforts have stagnated and called for the release of the many non-violent Kurdish political activists who have been held in jail for years, many of whom have not been convicted of a crime.
The report also cited the need to a lift the statute of limitations on political murders and torture, which is preventing redress for hundreds of victims and their families.
Thus far, neither the government or the president have commented on the report.
http://www.worldbulletin.net/news/145385/erdogan-european-ruling-on-religious-classes-wrong
QuoteErdogan: European ruling on religious classes 'wrong'
The Turkish president rejects the European Court of Human Rights (ECHR) ruling of two weeks ago which found in favour of some Turkish Alevi community members who complained that compulsory religious education in schools is wrong and attendance should be at the parents' discretion.
Speaking at a symposium on combatting drugs in Istanbul, Recep Tayyip Erdogan defended religious education in schools by saying that children with a lack of religion and ethics education try to fill the gap with other things. "Sometimes this is drug, sometimes violence, sometimes organized violence turned into terror".
The existence of religious culture and ethics classes must not be open for discussion said Erdogan. He added religious education in schools helps in the fight against "drug addiction, terror, violence, racism, anti-Semitism and Islam-phobia".
The ECHR ruling came after complaints of some Alevi faith (unorthodox minority branch of Islam) families, regarding the content of compulsory classes in religion and ethics in schools, which they said was based on the Sunni understanding of Islam.
The ruling recommends that Turkey remedies the situation without delay, in particular by introducing a system whereby pupils could be exempted from religion and ethics classes without their parents having to disclose their own religious or philosophical convictions.
Drug abuse
President Erdogan said that 180 million people in the world use drugs and that 75 million are drug-dependent. He said that at least 2.7 percent of the Turkish population (of 76 million) had used illegal substances at least once.
Erdogan said that actually a terror issue is threatening the peace in the world. But, "You see that everybody speaks about the results and not the reasons of that," Erdogan said.
In addition, Erdogan asked "Why European friends did not bother about the terror organization, the Kurdistan Workers' Party (PKK)? "Because there was no "Islam" word in front of that terror organization's name. They didn't have anything to do with Islam".
The PKK is a Kurdish political and military organization founded in 1978, and since then has conducted many terror attacks in which thousands of people in Turkey died.
The PKK is listed as terrorist organization by United States, the European Union, NATO and Turkey.
International Symposium on Drug Policy and Public Health
A thousand participants from over 50 different countries are attending the three day symposium on drug policy in Turkey.
The Turkish Green Crescent Society, a nongovernmental organization that endeavors to protect society and youth from harmful habits organised the symposium.
The symposium is expected to strengthen national coordination among different organizations, such as the Ministry of Interior, the Ministry of Health, the Ministry of Family and Social Policies, the Ministry of Youth and Sport, the Ministry of National Education and other related institutions.
http://www.hurriyetdailynews.com/Default.aspx?PageID=238&NID=38021&NewsCatID=393
QuoteChristianity no longer a religion, says Turkish minister
Christianity has ceased to be a religion but has become a culture of its own, Turkish Environment and Urbanism Minister Erdoğan Bayraktar said at a recent conference hosted by the ruling Justice and Development Party's (AKP) Women's Group.
"The biggest three countries in the world are not Muslim countries. China, India – only the U.S. believes in a single God. Spirituality and religious feelings are weakening," Bayraktar said.
"There are 2.5 billion Christians in the world," Bayraktar said. "Christianity is no longer a religion. It's a culture now. But that is not what a religion is like. A religion teaches; it is a form of life that gives one peace and happiness. That is what they want to turn [Islam] into as well."
Also, it's now forbidden to show up in school with tattoos, dyed hair or piercings.
I don't think anyone here is surprised by this. It's been a rather obvious progression.
We should kick Hungary out of the EU. Their prime ministe recently said that his preferred model of government is that of Russia, Turkey and China. We should help him to get closer with his new friends by releasing him from the EU liberal yoke.
Quote from: jimmy olsen on September 30, 2014, 01:28:18 AM
I don't think anyone here is surprised by this. It's been a rather obvious progression.
What about Raz? ;)
Quote from: jimmy olsen on September 30, 2014, 01:28:18 AM
I don't think anyone here is surprised by this. It's been a rather obvious progression.
I seem to recall people thinking Turkey might be ready to join the EU soonish.
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on September 30, 2014, 01:53:36 AM
Quote from: jimmy olsen on September 30, 2014, 01:28:18 AM
I don't think anyone here is surprised by this. It's been a rather obvious progression.
I seem to recall people thinking Turkey might be ready to join the EU soonish.
Yeah. Several people said Tamas and I are dumb Eastern Europeans who always expect the worst and are Islamophobic.
I had the impression in the 2000s that they developed in the right direction, it's only the last 3-5 years where AKP and Erdogan went more and more authoritarian.
Quote from: Zanza on September 30, 2014, 03:42:46 AM
I had the impression in the 2000s that they developed in the right direction, it's only the last 3-5 years where AKP and Erdogan went more and more authoritarian.
Ironically, removing the power of the Turkish army to coup is what did in the hope for democracy in that country.
Quote from: DGuller on September 30, 2014, 07:06:58 AM
Quote from: Zanza on September 30, 2014, 03:42:46 AM
I had the impression in the 2000s that they developed in the right direction, it's only the last 3-5 years where AKP and Erdogan went more and more authoritarian.
Ironically, removing the power of the Turkish army to coup is what did in the hope for democracy in that country.
Thank you: a non-ironic use of the word "ironic." And I agree on both the conclusion and the irony of it.
Quote from: DGuller on September 30, 2014, 07:06:58 AM
Quote from: Zanza on September 30, 2014, 03:42:46 AM
I had the impression in the 2000s that they developed in the right direction, it's only the last 3-5 years where AKP and Erdogan went more and more authoritarian.
Ironically, removing the power of the Turkish army to coup is what did in the hope for democracy in that country.
Yeah,what a shock. Kemal, after all, knew more about how his own people worked than western intelligentsia.
Quote from: Zanza on September 30, 2014, 03:42:46 AM
I had the impression in the 2000s that they developed in the right direction, it's only the last 3-5 years where AKP and Erdogan went more and more authoritarian.
Didn't take a fortune teller to predict they'd go more hardline the longer they are in power.
Quote from: DGuller on September 30, 2014, 07:06:58 AM
Quote from: Zanza on September 30, 2014, 03:42:46 AM
I had the impression in the 2000s that they developed in the right direction, it's only the last 3-5 years where AKP and Erdogan went more and more authoritarian.
Ironically, removing the power of the Turkish army to coup is what did in the hope for democracy in that country.
Agreed on that, and I tend to think that the MB in Eqypt would have tried to follow the example of Erdogan at some point. Perhaps the Army leaders thought the same and so moved sooner than later.
Quote from: Zanza on September 30, 2014, 03:42:46 AM
I had the impression in the 2000s that they developed in the right direction, it's only the last 3-5 years where AKP and Erdogan went more and more authoritarian.
I think that's true. No greater sign of growing authoritarianism than moving to a Presidential system.
Though things aren't necessarily all doom and gloom. The opposition looks a lot more competent than it's been the last 15 years which makes a difference.
Quote from: DGuller on September 30, 2014, 07:06:58 AM
Quote from: Zanza on September 30, 2014, 03:42:46 AM
I had the impression in the 2000s that they developed in the right direction, it's only the last 3-5 years where AKP and Erdogan went more and more authoritarian.
Ironically, removing the power of the Turkish army to coup is what did in the hope for democracy in that country.
I can see how the laicist military could be considered the onetime hope for human rights in Turkey. But was it ever really a hope for democracy? It regularly toppled governments after all.
Quote from: Zanza on September 30, 2014, 02:29:55 PM
I can see how the laicist military could be considered the onetime hope for human rights in Turkey. But was it ever really a hope for democracy? It regularly toppled governments after all.
What do you do when democracy is antithetical to human rights? A key problem in the Middle East, particularly over the past five years or so, is that "democracy" usually means "tyranny of the majority" or "tyranny of the vociferous".
Quote from: Baron von Schtinkenbutt on September 30, 2014, 02:51:09 PM
What do you do when democracy is antithetical to human rights? A key problem in the Middle East, particularly over the past five years or so, is that "democracy" usually means "tyranny of the majority" or "tyranny of the vociferous".
Isn't choosing your governors a human right?
My view has always been that democracy and free speech are the most important bits. Without them human rights are paper tigers.
Quote from: Sheilbh on September 30, 2014, 03:01:00 PM
Isn't choosing your governors a human right?
I'd think no? :huh:
Quote from: Baron von Schtinkenbutt on September 30, 2014, 02:51:09 PM
Quote from: Zanza on September 30, 2014, 02:29:55 PM
I can see how the laicist military could be considered the onetime hope for human rights in Turkey. But was it ever really a hope for democracy? It regularly toppled governments after all.
What do you do when democracy is antithetical to human rights? A key problem in the Middle East, particularly over the past five years or so, is that "democracy" usually means "tyranny of the majority" or "tyranny of the vociferous".
That is definitely an issue. Liberal democracy in its modern form as practiced in the west is the result of centuries worth of process of a kind or societal development so far unique in the world. This kind of system requires a big level of self restraint from the leaders and in fact from the people and a general consensus on the supremacy of the basic ideas behind it. Even Eastern Europe is having serious trouble in trying to adopt the system without having this full background behind it. And most of the Middle East is missing that background altogether
Quote from: garbon on September 30, 2014, 03:03:21 PM
I'd think no? :huh:
Okay. I'd say it, with free speech, is the foundational human right. Without it you've no consent in government and no debate.
Quote from: Baron von Schtinkenbutt on September 30, 2014, 02:51:09 PM
Quote from: Zanza on September 30, 2014, 02:29:55 PM
I can see how the laicist military could be considered the onetime hope for human rights in Turkey. But was it ever really a hope for democracy? It regularly toppled governments after all.
What do you do when democracy is antithetical to human rights? A key problem in the Middle East, particularly over the past five years or so, is that "democracy" usually means "tyranny of the majority" or "tyranny of the vociferous".
Parking lot. Verb.
Quote from: Sheilbh on September 30, 2014, 03:01:00 PM
Quote from: Baron von Schtinkenbutt on September 30, 2014, 02:51:09 PM
What do you do when democracy is antithetical to human rights? A key problem in the Middle East, particularly over the past five years or so, is that "democracy" usually means "tyranny of the majority" or "tyranny of the vociferous".
Isn't choosing your governors a human right?
My view has always been that democracy and free speech are the most important bits. Without them human rights are paper tigers.
They are necessary, but on their own they do not guarantee human rights by default
Quote from: Tamas on September 30, 2014, 03:06:39 PM
That is definitely an issue. Liberal democracy in its modern form as practiced in the west is the result of centuries worth of process of a kind or societal development so far unique in the world. This kind of system requires a big level of self restraint from the leaders and in fact from the people and a general consensus on the supremacy of the basic ideas behind it. Even Eastern Europe is having serious trouble in trying to adopt the system without having this full background behind it. And most of the Middle East is missing that background altogether
Maybe, but it's tough to see how you develop a democratic culture without, say, free speech. How can you develop that culture without, above all, free speech and argument?
But then I'm an unreconstructed neo-con :P
Quote from: Tamas on September 30, 2014, 03:09:05 PM
They are necessary, but on their own they do not guarantee human rights by default
Nothing guarantees human rights by default.
But I think the best approach is one that allows criticism and debate. I think this is partly why, generally, emerging democracies are seen as best served by a Parliamentary system. It is about two opposing sides fighting it out - a play, or a dialogue if a contentious one. A Presidential system automatically instils deference and is, more often, a monologue.
Quote from: Sheilbh on September 30, 2014, 03:12:08 PM
Quote from: Tamas on September 30, 2014, 03:09:05 PM
They are necessary, but on their own they do not guarantee human rights by default
Nothing guarantees human rights by default.
But I think the best approach is one that allows criticism and debate. I think this is partly why, generally, emerging democracies are seen as best served by a Parliamentary system. It is about two opposing sides fighting it out - a play, or a dialogue if a contentious one. A Presidential system automatically instils deference and is, more often, a monologue.
Yes but it is pretty easy for a parliamentary system to turn into devolving spiral. That is exactly what happened in Hungary: the two sides ended up removing all kinds of reasonable debate and installing fierce tribal warfare until one side achieved total victory.
Quote from: Tamas on September 30, 2014, 03:19:50 PM
Yes but it is pretty easy for a parliamentary system to turn into devolving spiral. That is exactly what happened in Hungary: the two sides ended up removing all kinds of reasonable debate and installing fierce tribal warfare until one side achieved total victory.
Yeah, they can fail like anything else. There are no guarantees for democracy or human rights apart, ultimately, from the people. But on the route to outright authoritarianism they may well end up adopting a Presidential system as Erdogan has.
Quote from: Martinus on September 30, 2014, 01:32:57 AM
Quote from: jimmy olsen on September 30, 2014, 01:28:18 AM
I don't think anyone here is surprised by this. It's been a rather obvious progression.
What about Raz? ;)
Your problem was theocracy, not authoritarianism. I believe his main opposition is a Muslim cleric, would you like him to take power?
Quote from: Sheilbh on September 30, 2014, 03:28:48 PM
Quote from: Tamas on September 30, 2014, 03:19:50 PM
Yes but it is pretty easy for a parliamentary system to turn into devolving spiral. That is exactly what happened in Hungary: the two sides ended up removing all kinds of reasonable debate and installing fierce tribal warfare until one side achieved total victory.
Yeah, they can fail like anything else. There are no guarantees for democracy or human rights apart, ultimately, from the people. But on the route to outright authoritarianism they may well end up adopting a Presidential system as Erdogan has.
Oh yes, Erdogan's presidency is merely a step in his journey to ultimate power
Quote from: Sheilbh on September 30, 2014, 03:01:00 PM
Isn't choosing your governors a human right?
No.
Quote
My view has always been that democracy and free speech are the most important bits. Without them human rights are paper tigers.
My view is that democracy is a means to protecting and enforcing human rights. A very important means. However, there are cases where a particular implementation or a particular administration can act to infringe on the human rights of others. In severe cases, the right answer is to remove that government and replace it with one that will respect the human rights of all. That government may not be democratic.
Democracy is not a panacea for human rights.
Quote from: Sheilbh on September 30, 2014, 03:28:48 PM
There are no guarantees for democracy or human rights apart, ultimately, from the people.
I disagree. The Rule of Law provides the most important "guarantee". The "people" can be fickle at best at protecting the rights of the minority.
Quote from: crazy canuck on September 30, 2014, 03:55:56 PM
Quote from: Sheilbh on September 30, 2014, 03:28:48 PM
There are no guarantees for democracy or human rights apart, ultimately, from the people.
I disagree. The Rule of Law provides the most important "guarantee". The "people" can be fickle at best at protecting the rights of the minority.
South Africa? Singapore? The US for chunks of its history? The model to which China's aspiring?
There is no guarantee. You can punctiliously adhere to the rule of law while entirely denying the rights of whole rafts of citizens. But if I had to choose a second best to the right to challenge, to debate and to argue your point, then it'd be rule of law.
"Democracy" is more than just electing your rulers though, in order for that to be effective it comes with a lot of attached conditions (free speech, free press, political freedoms), that are the cornerstone to avoid tyrannical governments from taking power. And if an abusive government came to power, democracy and the free flow of discussion become the elements that make possible its removal. Sure, people are quick to point how Hitler won an election, but have you thought why was he so quick as to remove free elections* altogether after he won?
*Nazi Germany had elections after 1933, but only with Nazi-approved candidates.
Quote from: Sheilbh on September 30, 2014, 04:15:12 PM
You can punctiliously adhere to the rule of law while entirely denying the rights of whole rafts of citizens.
I think our respective understanding of the Rule of Law differs. If one does adhere to the Rule of Law then it is quite impossible to deny rights to a large amount of citizens. I think you are thinking of the application of legislation which is something quite different and which has the potential of abouse by the tyrrany of the majority. Or in the others cases you cited, the tyrrany of the powerful.
Democracy, even free elections, are meaningless without means of protecting the opposition (I recall in school we learned that the opposition was "a government in waiting") and minorities.
Unfortunately, there seems to be a trend in some countries these days to take the result of one election and the winning party then using it to legitimize curbing the chances for the opposition to take over. "The people have decided!"
Quote from: Syt on September 30, 2014, 11:11:55 PM
Democracy, even free elections, are meaningless without means of protecting the opposition (I recall in school we learned that the opposition was "a government in waiting") and minorities.
Unfortunately, there seems to be a trend in some countries these days to take the result of one election and the winning party then using it to legitimize curbing the chances for the opposition to take over. "The people have decided!"
Agreed. Sheilbh's faith in democracy can only exist with the necessary supports to maintain a real choice for voters. Those necessary supports are the very essence of the Rule of Law. Otherwise we end up having a democracy akin to the Crimea referendum....
The problem with democracy in the West is that it developed during several centuries of bloodshed, oppression and discrimination - to paraphrase Churchill, Westerns did the right thing and chose liberal democracy after exhausting all the other alternatives - and also it developed during relative isolation and then supremacy of the West. These conditions are impossible to replicate.
The real moral conundrum when it comes to countries that did not go through that process is whether we insist on them choosing liberal democracy just because we say so (in which case it tends not to stick), we let them go through the process themselves (in which case, this means they get to do intolerable things on their way there), or we choose to support undemocratic but modernising regimes. I don't think there is a simple answer, to be honest.
The fact that there are other world and regional powers who actively oppose these goals does not help either.
Edit: plus now we have 24 hour media cycles and hysterical public, so any policy that takes decades to succeed is just not viable.
The claim that democracy is a uniquely western concept is not supported by studies as there are well-working democracies in all parts of the world, except the Middle East, Central Asia and Central Africa. Here is the Economist's democracy index (from 2012, so some may be outdated e.g. Thailand) for example:
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fupload.wikimedia.org%2Fwikipedia%2Fcommons%2Fthumb%2F7%2F75%2FDemocracy_Index_2012_green_and_red.svg%2F863px-Democracy_Index_2012_green_and_red.svg.png&hash=71a3f478f9989039755da1c8f6572aa3babf4cf5)
Quote from: Zanza on October 01, 2014, 12:28:20 AM
The claim that democracy is a uniquely western concept is not supported by studies as there are well-working democracies in all parts of the world, except the Middle East, Central Asia and Central Africa. Here is the Economist's democracy index (from 2012, so some may be outdated e.g. Thailand) for example:
I don't think we are saying that democracy is a uniquely Western concept - just that it has been a hit and miss outside of the West. Even on this map, the only countries that seem to have a well-functioning democracy outside of the West seem to be Japan, South Korea, India and South Africa - in each case there is quite a unique reason why this is the case.
Most of those democracies outside of the West were pretty much forced on them by the West, or heavily influenced from there(i.e. India as a former British colony). :P
Mongolia is a hopeful exception. And I have my doubts about Indonesia, but will be optimistic.
Quote from: Zanza on October 01, 2014, 12:28:20 AM
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fupload.wikimedia.org%2Fwikipedia%2Fcommons%2Fthumb%2F7%2F75%2FDemocracy_Index_2012_green_and_red.svg%2F863px-Democracy_Index_2012_green_and_red.svg.png&hash=71a3f478f9989039755da1c8f6572aa3babf4cf5)
My Hemisphere is better than your hemisphere.
And why is Bosnia less democratic than her neighbors? I thought we saved them from those evil invaders and ethic cleansers. :(
Quote from: Tonitrus on October 01, 2014, 12:55:46 AM
And why is Bosnia less democratic than her neighbors? I thought we saved them from those evil invaders and ethic cleansers. :(
http://www.idea.int/sod/worldwide/summary_bosnia_assess.cfm
QuoteKey Recommendations
- Constitutional changes that strengthen the state and create a functioning system are needed.
- Unified health care, a law on higher education, and urgent actions addressing the Roma people's basic necessities are required.
- De-ethnification of political parties needs to take place.
- The involvement of international moderators needs to decrease while at the same time increasing the accountability and legitimacy of domestic institutions.
- The police forces need to undergo reform, centralization and depoliticization.
- Laws on local self-governance must be passed in order to enhance communication between citizenship and government.
(Detailed assessment under the link.)
It probably also doesn't help that the Serb Republic in BiH kinda, sorta, are dicks and block a lot of things and slowly work towards independence.
Those bloody Serbs. <_<
Quote from: Valmy on October 01, 2014, 12:51:44 AM
Quote from: Zanza on October 01, 2014, 12:28:20 AM
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fupload.wikimedia.org%2Fwikipedia%2Fcommons%2Fthumb%2F7%2F75%2FDemocracy_Index_2012_green_and_red.svg%2F863px-Democracy_Index_2012_green_and_red.svg.png&hash=71a3f478f9989039755da1c8f6572aa3babf4cf5)
My Hemisphere is better than your hemisphere.
That's because your hemisphere is mostly water. :P
Quote from: Martinus on October 01, 2014, 01:20:43 AM
That's because your hemisphere is mostly water. :P
Both are. :contract:
Our water is more apolitical.
Quote from: Zanza on October 01, 2014, 12:28:20 AM
The claim that democracy is a uniquely western concept is not supported by studies as there are well-working democracies in all parts of the world, except the Middle East, Central Asia and Central Africa. Here is the Economist's democracy index (from 2012, so some may be outdated e.g. Thailand) for example:
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fupload.wikimedia.org%2Fwikipedia%2Fcommons%2Fthumb%2F7%2F75%2FDemocracy_Index_2012_green_and_red.svg%2F863px-Democracy_Index_2012_green_and_red.svg.png&hash=71a3f478f9989039755da1c8f6572aa3babf4cf5)
I would consider S. America Western. I would also say that the other states with succeful democracies that have successful democracies have been dominated by Western countries for quite a while.
There doesn't seem to be a clear link between having been dominated by a Western country and democracy though.
Algeria was an integral part of France and isn't considered a democracy these days. Benin or Malawi, which had much less colonial influence are democracies.
Cuba or Haiti were dominated for centuries by Western colonial powers and aren't democracies.
India developed into a viable democracy, Pakistan or Burma didn't despite all of them being part of the British Raj.
South Africa and Botswana developed into proper democracies, Zimbabwe - which has a comparable colonial history - developed into one of the worst dictatorships in Africa.
Taiwan or Mongolia were never dominated by any Western country and yet are proper democracies. Thailand - until the military coup this year - would have fallen into that category as well.
I don't think anyone is arguing that "western dominance = democracy".
Sometimes chance decides as well. And some of your "proper democracies", one could argue, are still in the probationary period for that qualification. Or at least, the security of that democracy is fragile (and this is true of some nations in the West as well).
Quote from: Tonitrus on October 01, 2014, 03:29:05 AM
I don't think anyone is arguing that "western dominance = democracy".
Fair enough, but Raz suggested that western dominance is a prerequisite for democracy. This is not the case. It seems helpful though.
Quote from: Zanza on October 01, 2014, 02:49:04 AM
There doesn't seem to be a clear link between having been dominated by a Western country and democracy though.
Algeria was an integral part of France and isn't considered a democracy these days. Benin or Malawi, which had much less colonial influence are democracies.
Cuba or Haiti were dominated for centuries by Western colonial powers and aren't democracies.
India developed into a viable democracy, Pakistan or Burma didn't despite all of them being part of the British Raj.
South Africa and Botswana developed into proper democracies, Zimbabwe - which has a comparable colonial history - developed into one of the worst dictatorships in Africa.
Taiwan or Mongolia were never dominated by any Western country and yet are proper democracies. Thailand - until the military coup this year - would have fallen into that category as well.
It's not really a matter of western influence, but rather if the people in the country have made the decision to adopt these western values.
Pakistan, Cuba, Algeria etc. all rejected the vast majority of the institutions the british, american and french colonial powers tried to impose, they took the police arm of the western administration and ended up with police states. India, Japan and (fuck it the french were crap at this, so nobody) did adopt the full set of western institutions while letting the individuals retain their own freedom to choose their own personal culture.
Japan is a very Japanese country with very Japanese people who have a set of western institutions that might look and feel alien to them in a sense but they are committed to them. They have adopted most of the important bits successfully while staying distinctly themselves.
Benin did have the peoples republic of benin, only abandoning it after the end of the cold war. In effect beginning the adoption of western values and institutions in 1989.
Malawi was also a one party state until the end of the cold war.
Quote from: Baron von Schtinkenbutt on September 30, 2014, 03:44:38 PM
Quote from: Sheilbh on September 30, 2014, 03:01:00 PM
Isn't choosing your governors a human right?
No.
Quote
My view has always been that democracy and free speech are the most important bits. Without them human rights are paper tigers.
My view is that democracy is a means to protecting and enforcing human rights. A very important means. However, there are cases where a particular implementation or a particular administration can act to infringe on the human rights of others. In severe cases, the right answer is to remove that government and replace it with one that will respect the human rights of all. That government may not be democratic.
Democracy is not a panacea for human rights.
:yes: I wish the mouthpieces in Washington could wrap their minds around that.
Admittedly, the likelihood that human rights will be protected goes up with a democratic government, but history is littered with benevolent heads of state (usually monarchs) who've still managed to advance the cause of human rights for the people they've ruled.
Look at Sweden- they didn't even develop a parliamentary system until the 20th century.
Topical op-ed piece from Spiegel Online:
http://www.spiegel.de/politik/ausland/syrien-irak-libyen-warum-diktatur-besser-ist-als-anarchie-a-994225.html
The gist: after toppling an autocratic regime, a functioning democracy might not necessarily follow (see Afghanistan, Libya, Iraq, ...), and instead might create instability/a failed state that prepares the ground for extremist regimes (IS). Therefore it might be better for the West in terms of Realpolitik to keep a stable dictatorship around and try to push them towards peaceful change and reform, and having a functioning state needs to be a higher priority of decision makers.
Honestly, I thought we should have backed Assad to begin with. We should be working with Syria and Iran on this, perhaps in exchange for the end of the Iranian nuclear program.
Quote from: Razgovory on October 01, 2014, 05:11:05 AM
Honestly, I thought we should have backed Assad to begin with. We should be working with Syria and Iran on this, perhaps in exchange for the end of the Iranian nuclear program.
Well, that would be possibly reasonable. There is one more factor that deforms the Western (and, particularly, American) policy in the region to a great extent, though.
It starts with I and ends with L.
Quote from: Martinus on October 01, 2014, 06:48:00 AM
Quote from: Razgovory on October 01, 2014, 05:11:05 AM
Honestly, I thought we should have backed Assad to begin with. We should be working with Syria and Iran on this, perhaps in exchange for the end of the Iranian nuclear program.
Well, that would be possibly reasonable. There is one more factor that deforms the Western (and, particularly, American) policy in the region to a great extent, though.
It starts with I and ends with L.
:rolleyes:
Quote from: Tamas on October 01, 2014, 06:49:55 AM
Quote from: Martinus on October 01, 2014, 06:48:00 AM
Quote from: Razgovory on October 01, 2014, 05:11:05 AM
Honestly, I thought we should have backed Assad to begin with. We should be working with Syria and Iran on this, perhaps in exchange for the end of the Iranian nuclear program.
Well, that would be possibly reasonable. There is one more factor that deforms the Western (and, particularly, American) policy in the region to a great extent, though.
It starts with I and ends with L.
:rolleyes:
What? Working with Iran would be unthinkable from the US perspective and the only reason for this is the fact that Iran is a sworn enemy of Israel (the West is perfectly capable of turning a blind eye to even greater human right abuses by the Saudis, so it is hardly that).
Quote from: Martinus on October 01, 2014, 06:51:14 AM
What? Working with Iran would be unthinkable from the US perspective and the only reason for this is the fact that Iran is a sworn enemy of Israel (the West is perfectly capable of turning a blind eye to even greater human right abuses by the Saudis, so it is hardly that).
:huh: Iran has worked directly against US (and other Western) interests in all manner of areas, mostly having nothing to do with Israel.
Israel certainly had nothing to do with them kidnapping hundreds of our citizens.
Quote from: Zanza on October 01, 2014, 12:28:20 AM
The claim that democracy is a uniquely western concept is not supported by studies as there are well-working democracies in all parts of the world, except the Middle East, Central Asia and Central Africa. Here is the Economist's democracy index (from 2012, so some may be outdated e.g. Thailand) for example:
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fupload.wikimedia.org%2Fwikipedia%2Fcommons%2Fthumb%2F7%2F75%2FDemocracy_Index_2012_green_and_red.svg%2F863px-Democracy_Index_2012_green_and_red.svg.png&hash=71a3f478f9989039755da1c8f6572aa3babf4cf5)
:hmm: It almost seems like there is an axis of authoritarianism, going from Russia/China all the way to Africa through all the Islamic lands.
Quote from: grumbler on October 01, 2014, 08:08:44 AM
Quote from: Martinus on October 01, 2014, 06:51:14 AM
What? Working with Iran would be unthinkable from the US perspective and the only reason for this is the fact that Iran is a sworn enemy of Israel (the West is perfectly capable of turning a blind eye to even greater human right abuses by the Saudis, so it is hardly that).
:huh: Iran has worked directly against US (and other Western) interests in all manner of areas, mostly having nothing to do with Israel.
Cut him som slack. He is living in Eastern Europe. Most everything is analysed there on the basis of "how could the Jews be potentially involved?"
Quote from: Tamas on October 01, 2014, 09:18:12 AM
Quote from: grumbler on October 01, 2014, 08:08:44 AM
Quote from: Martinus on October 01, 2014, 06:51:14 AM
What? Working with Iran would be unthinkable from the US perspective and the only reason for this is the fact that Iran is a sworn enemy of Israel (the West is perfectly capable of turning a blind eye to even greater human right abuses by the Saudis, so it is hardly that).
:huh: Iran has worked directly against US (and other Western) interests in all manner of areas, mostly having nothing to do with Israel.
Cut him som slack. He is living in Eastern Europe. Most everything is analysed there on the basis of "how could the Jews be potentially involved?"
:lol: Tamas, just because you left your beet farm in Hungary doesn't mean you're not an Eastern European anymore. You don't get to mock Eastern Europeans with an air of superiority.
Quote from: DGuller on October 01, 2014, 09:21:09 AM
Quote from: Tamas on October 01, 2014, 09:18:12 AM
Quote from: grumbler on October 01, 2014, 08:08:44 AM
Quote from: Martinus on October 01, 2014, 06:51:14 AM
What? Working with Iran would be unthinkable from the US perspective and the only reason for this is the fact that Iran is a sworn enemy of Israel (the West is perfectly capable of turning a blind eye to even greater human right abuses by the Saudis, so it is hardly that).
:huh: Iran has worked directly against US (and other Western) interests in all manner of areas, mostly having nothing to do with Israel.
Cut him som slack. He is living in Eastern Europe. Most everything is analysed there on the basis of "how could the Jews be potentially involved?"
:lol: Tamas, just because you left your beet farm in Hungary doesn't mean you're not an Eastern European anymore. You don't get to mock Eastern Europeans with an air of superiority.
Odd coming from you. :hmm:
Quote from: Razgovory on October 01, 2014, 05:11:05 AM
Honestly, I thought we should have backed Assad to begin with.
No that makes no sense.
Quote from: garbon on October 01, 2014, 09:24:33 AM
Odd coming from you. :hmm:
Well, he'll know what he's talking about.
Quote from: garbon on October 01, 2014, 09:24:33 AM
Quote from: DGuller on October 01, 2014, 09:21:09 AM
Quote from: Tamas on October 01, 2014, 09:18:12 AM
Quote from: grumbler on October 01, 2014, 08:08:44 AM
Quote from: Martinus on October 01, 2014, 06:51:14 AM
What? Working with Iran would be unthinkable from the US perspective and the only reason for this is the fact that Iran is a sworn enemy of Israel (the West is perfectly capable of turning a blind eye to even greater human right abuses by the Saudis, so it is hardly that).
:huh: Iran has worked directly against US (and other Western) interests in all manner of areas, mostly having nothing to do with Israel.
Cut him som slack. He is living in Eastern Europe. Most everything is analysed there on the basis of "how could the Jews be potentially involved?"
:lol: Tamas, just because you left your beet farm in Hungary doesn't mean you're not an Eastern European anymore. You don't get to mock Eastern Europeans with an air of superiority.
Odd coming from you. :hmm:
No shit. Besides, i have been voicing the same condescending opinion on east euro politics waaaaay before I left the country. No wonder Dorsey didn't notice though. He only pays attention when I am attacking the latest Democrat memo
Quote from: garbon on October 01, 2014, 09:24:33 AM
Quote from: DGuller on October 01, 2014, 09:21:09 AM
Quote from: Tamas on October 01, 2014, 09:18:12 AM
Quote from: grumbler on October 01, 2014, 08:08:44 AM
Quote from: Martinus on October 01, 2014, 06:51:14 AM
What? Working with Iran would be unthinkable from the US perspective and the only reason for this is the fact that Iran is a sworn enemy of Israel (the West is perfectly capable of turning a blind eye to even greater human right abuses by the Saudis, so it is hardly that).
:huh: Iran has worked directly against US (and other Western) interests in all manner of areas, mostly having nothing to do with Israel.
Cut him som slack. He is living in Eastern Europe. Most everything is analysed there on the basis of "how could the Jews be potentially involved?"
:lol: Tamas, just because you left your beet farm in Hungary doesn't mean you're not an Eastern European anymore. You don't get to mock Eastern Europeans with an air of superiority.
Odd coming from you. :hmm:
:hmm: Oh. :(
Quote from: Tamas on October 01, 2014, 09:41:04 AM
No shit. Besides, i have been voicing the same condescending opinion on east euro politics waaaaay before I left the country. No wonder Dorsey didn't notice though. He only pays attention when I am attacking the latest Democrat memo
Oh, the irony. The spokesman for Austrian economics on Languish is implying that I'm ideologically rigid.
You're more partisan than ideological, though.
Quote from: Zanza on October 01, 2014, 12:28:20 AM
The claim that democracy is a uniquely western concept is not supported by studies as there are well-working democracies in all parts of the world, except the Middle East, Central Asia and Central Africa. Here is the Economist's democracy index (from 2012, so some may be outdated e.g. Thailand) for example:
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fupload.wikimedia.org%2Fwikipedia%2Fcommons%2Fthumb%2F7%2F75%2FDemocracy_Index_2012_green_and_red.svg%2F863px-Democracy_Index_2012_green_and_red.svg.png&hash=71a3f478f9989039755da1c8f6572aa3babf4cf5)
Text and map don't match.
We seem to have a lot of threads about Turkey and several major Erdogan discussions in other threads also, but rather than start yet another one, I thought this old thread was the best match to today's news.
Erdogan wastes no time in flexing his newly enhanced democratic credentials:
Quote
Turkey detains supporters of Erdogan rival Gulen in raids
Turkish police have arrested 44 people suspected of having links to an exiled Islamic cleric accused of seeking to overthrow the government.
Top bureaucrats and police officers were among those held in a crackdown on supporters of Fethullah Gulen, the state-run Anadolu agency said.
Mr Gulen is a rival of President Recep Tayyip Erdogan, whose AK party regained its majority in Sunday's election.
European observers said violence and media restrictions marred the polls.
On Tuesday, left-wing magazine Nokta said two of its editors had been charged with plotting a coup in the government's latest move against opposition media outlets.
Cevheri Guven and Murat Capan were arrested over a magazine cover criticising the election results that read: "The start of civil war in Turkey."
An Istanbul court later ordered that the magazine's latest edition be withdrawn from the shelves, accusing it of inciting the public to commit a crime.
....
Full article here:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-34709324 (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-34709324)
Quote from: The Brain on October 01, 2014, 11:39:31 AM
Quote from: Zanza on October 01, 2014, 12:28:20 AM
The claim that democracy is a uniquely western concept is not supported by studies as there are well-working democracies in all parts of the world, except the Middle East, Central Asia and Central Africa. Here is the Economist's democracy index (from 2012, so some may be outdated e.g. Thailand) for example:
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fupload.wikimedia.org%2Fwikipedia%2Fcommons%2Fthumb%2F7%2F75%2FDemocracy_Index_2012_green_and_red.svg%2F863px-Democracy_Index_2012_green_and_red.svg.png&hash=71a3f478f9989039755da1c8f6572aa3babf4cf5)
Text and map don't match.
Yeah, the democratic areas are the ones inhabited, colonised or closely subjugated (like India) by Westerners. :P
Quote from: Martinus on November 04, 2015, 01:09:35 AM
Yeah, the democratic areas are the ones inhabited, colonised or closely subjugated (like India) by Westerners. :P
That description doesn't fit S. Korea or Taiwan, as both were Japanese colonies. On the other hand, many countries that were once western colonies aren't democracies now, see countries in the middle east, Pakistan, Vietnam, Cuba etc.
All you representative democracies are just enjoying the kabuki theater. Only in a direct democracy do people have a real say in their governance. Switzerland should have its own shade on that Economist map. May I suggest floating ball of light blue?
The Japs have a serious Western fetish though. Prior to that they had an emperor/military dictatorships. :P
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on September 30, 2014, 01:53:36 AM
I seem to recall people thinking Turkey might be ready to join the EU soonish.
Before Erdogan. And these people were ridiculed because Turkey wasn't a real democracy since the army had too much power in enforcing the non religious constitution...
Quote from: Syt on October 01, 2014, 04:40:09 AM
Topical op-ed piece from Spiegel Online:
http://www.spiegel.de/politik/ausland/syrien-irak-libyen-warum-diktatur-besser-ist-als-anarchie-a-994225.html
The gist: after toppling an autocratic regime, a functioning democracy might not necessarily follow (see Afghanistan, Libya, Iraq, ...), and instead might create instability/a failed state that prepares the ground for extremist regimes (IS). Therefore it might be better for the West in terms of Realpolitik to keep a stable dictatorship around and try to push them towards peaceful change and reform, and having a functioning state needs to be a higher priority of decision makers.
...and then we can listen to the Europeans bitch about how the US supports dictators.
Quote
Erdogan urges Turkey's new parliament to address constitution
4 November 2015
President Erdogan was giving his first major speech since his AK Party won the parliamentary elections
President Recep Tayyip Erdogan says Turkey's parliament should prioritise discussions on a new constitution, following his AK Party's electoral triumph.
Mr Erdogan said that constitutional change was one of the most important messages of Sunday's result.
He has long wanted to strengthen the powers of the presidency.
But critics have warned it could strengthen what they see as his authoritarian tendencies.
The AKP regained its parliamentary majority in the snap election on Sunday, but still fell 13 seats short of the number of MPs required to call a referendum on the constitution.
In his first major speech since the victory, Mr Erdogan said Prime Minister Ahmet Davutoglu would consult opposition leaders on getting support for rewriting the constitution.
The president warned opponents against resisting the move.
....
Full item here:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-34720067 (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-34720067)
:hmm:
Quote from: Tamas on September 30, 2014, 03:06:39 PM
That is definitely an issue. Liberal democracy in its modern form as practiced in the west is the result of centuries worth of process of a kind or societal development so far unique in the world. This kind of system requires a big level of self restraint from the leaders and in fact from the people and a general consensus on the supremacy of the basic ideas behind it. Even Eastern Europe is having serious trouble in trying to adopt the system without having this full background behind it. And most of the Middle East is missing that background altogether
Seems to be working fine in East Asia, despite not having those centuries of societal development.
Quote from: mongers on November 04, 2015, 06:50:07 PM
Quote
Erdogan urges Turkey's new parliament to address constitution
Erdogan: First Consul for life?
Quote from: Valmy on November 04, 2015, 10:09:01 PM
Quote from: mongers on November 04, 2015, 06:50:07 PM
Quote
Erdogan urges Turkey's new parliament to address constitution
Erdogan: First Consul for life?
"Ein Volk, Ein Reich, Ein Führer**" more like it.
So why is this a country that should get EU membership?
http://www.aljazeera.com/news/2016/03/turkey-largest-newspaper-tows-line-seizure-160306082619067.html
QuoteTurkey's Zaman: Editorial tone changes after takeover
Pro-government slant marks newspaper's first edition since judicial intervention which set off two days of protests.
Turkey's largest-circulation newspaper has adopted a pro-government line in its first edition since a court ordered it to be seized in a controversial decision.
Al Jazeera's Mohammed Jamjoom, reporting from Istanbul, said the Turkish-language Zaman had changed its editorial tone drastically.
The top story on Sunday described how President Recep Tayyip Erdogan attended a ceremony marking a key phase in the construction of a bridge across the Bosphorus in Istanbul.
"If anyone was wondering if there were going to be serious changes to the tone or editorial stance of Zaman, well they got their answer on Sunday morning," he said.
"This used to be an opposition paper but Sunday's edition carried pro-government stories across its front page."
Zaman's website was offline, with a message that read: "We will provide you, our readers, with a better quality and more objective service as soon as possible."
The website of the English-language Today's Zaman, which was also confiscated, featured stories about the takeover and the European Union's critical response but had not been updated since Saturday.
Police stormed the offices on Friday to enforce a court decision to place it and its sister outlets under the management of trustees.
The court appointed an administrator to run Zaman, Today's Zaman and the Cihan agency.
The step prompted two days of protests which riot police dispersed using tear gas and water cannon.
About 50 people stood outside of the paper's Istanbul offices again on Sunday to protest against the takeover, witnesses said.
The atmosphere was calm, however.
Employees returned to the newsroom on Saturday to work under the new administrator, but Abdulhamit Bilici, Zaman's editor-in-chief, and Bulent Kenes, a columnist, were fired and escorted from the premises, said Sevgi Akarcesme, top editor at Today's Zaman.
Rights groups and European officials have criticised the takeover, saying it infringed on press freedom in Turkey, an EU candidate country.
Independent Turkish journalist discusses Zaman takeover
En route to Brussels to attend an EU meeting, Ahmet Davutoglu, Turkey's prime minister, rejected that charge, saying a legal process was under way to investigate illicit financing of a "terrorist" organisation and that there had been no political interference.
Zaman was linked to Erdogan's rival, the US-based Muslim leader Fethullah Gulen. Its takeover is part of a wider state crackdown on his religious movement.
The court ruling came at the request of a prosecutor investigating Gulen on terrorism charges, state media said.
Prosecutors have accused Zaman and its affiliates of praising and helping what they called a "terrorist organisation".
Erdogan and Davutoglu accuse Gulen of plotting to topple their government in 2013 after police suspected of belonging to the religious movement leaked a corruption investigation into Erdogan's family and ministers.
Erdogan accuses Gulen of building a network of supporters in the judiciary, police and media.
Gulen has denied the allegations.
"There is some obvious evidence that they [Gulen and Zaman] are linked to many international organisations," Yasin Aktay, a member of Turkey's ruling AK party, told Al Jazeera.
"And Zaman newspapers and others are part of this coordination with this apparatus."
Aktay rejected allegations about media intolerance on the part of the Turkish government.
"There is no intolerance in Turkey about media criticism. [There's] probably more than 60 or 70 percent of the media in Turkey against the government and the government is tolerating them," he said.
Religion is great.
Reports of shots fired in Ankara, tanks in the streets and jets overhead.
Bosporus bridges closed in Istanbul, lots of military and unverified reports of police being de-armed.
:unsure:
Interesting times.
This report is clearly now very, very out of date.
Next stop, show trials.
Even Worse.
According to Turkish embassador to belgium our Flemish govt support terrorists :tinfoil:
They alos opened a snitch line for Gülenist living over here :mad:
Then they came for the intelligentsia. Over 20,000 teachers fired, university employees forbidden to travel abroad.
Have anything interesting come from the AKP Wikileaks yet?
Quote from: Maladict on July 20, 2016, 08:47:46 AM
Then they came for the intelligentsia. Over 20,000 teachers fired, university employees forbidden to travel abroad.
Wait what? Seriously?
I seem to recall that I have seen a similar plot play out many years ago. It is called the Phantom Menace and Attack of the Clones :ph34r:
Quote from: Monoriu on July 20, 2016, 08:53:29 AM
I seem to recall that I have seen a similar plot play out many years ago. It is called the Phantom Menace and Attack of the Clones :ph34r:
Not many enough.
Quote from: Valmy on July 20, 2016, 08:51:44 AM
Quote from: Maladict on July 20, 2016, 08:47:46 AM
Then they came for the intelligentsia. Over 20,000 teachers fired, university employees forbidden to travel abroad.
Wait what? Seriously?
http://mobile.reuters.com/article/idUSKCN0ZZ22F?il=0
https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/turkey-bans-all-academics-from-travelling-in-latest-post-coup-measures/2016/07/20/f3498b44-4de5-11e6-bf27-405106836f96_story.html
It looks like it is being pitched as just "temporary" so they can do their investigation. Don't want any of them fleeing the country I guess.
Quote from: Archy on July 20, 2016, 05:50:24 AM
Even Worse.
According to Turkish embassador to belgium our Flemish govt support terrorists :tinfoil:
They alos opened a snitch line for Gülenist living over here :mad:
every phone call made to the snitch line should be traced, ever caller deported and stripped of belgian nationality. If they want to play fascist they should do so in their own shitty country. And that's not Belgium, that's our shitty country!
Quote from: Crazy_Ivan80 on July 20, 2016, 12:42:58 PM
Quote from: Archy on July 20, 2016, 05:50:24 AM
Even Worse.
According to Turkish embassador to belgium our Flemish govt support terrorists :tinfoil:
They alos opened a snitch line for Gülenist living over here :mad:
every phone call made to the snitch line should be traced, ever caller deported and stripped of belgian nationality. If they want to play fascist they should do so in their own shitty country. And that's not Belgium, that's our shitty country!
Yes, if one telemarketer is caught in the web it's worth it.
QuoteThe first decree signed by Erdoğan authorises the closure of 1,043 private schools, 1,229 charities and foundations, 19 trade unions, 15 universities and 35 medical institutions over suspected links to the Gülen movement
This is when they need a coup. :(
For some reason I'm feel like we're entering the thirties again :(
Bickering democracies unable to do much against at threats to their existence
Quote from: garbon on July 23, 2016, 05:28:20 AM
This is when they need a coup. :(
It looks to me like that is what they are getting. Erdogan is showing the failed coup leaders how it is done, and launching his own counter coup.
Quote from: Archy on July 23, 2016, 05:18:17 PM
For some reason I'm feel like we're entering the thirties again :(
Bickering democracies unable to do much against at threats to their existence
Yes, I'm hoping for a 1970s style mess but fear that it might be a 1930s one :(
Quote from: Archy on July 23, 2016, 05:18:17 PM
For some reason I'm feel like we're entering the thirties again :(
Bickering democracies unable to do much against at threats to their existence
at least the leftists here should be happy. They've been screaming about the 30s for half a decade now, just up the wrong tree (cause the correct tree was filled with their voters)
Quote from: Richard Hakluyt on July 24, 2016, 02:34:58 AM
Quote from: Archy on July 23, 2016, 05:18:17 PM
For some reason I'm feel like we're entering the thirties again :(
Bickering democracies unable to do much against at threats to their existence
Yes, I'm hoping for a 1970s style mess but fear that it might be a 1930s one :(
That's makes Trump's choice of "America First" as his slogan even more interesting, doesn't it?
http://www.breitbart.com/london/2016/07/31/pictures-huge-pro-erdogan-islamist-rally-germany/?utm_source=facebook&utm_medium=social
This is from Breitbart, so feel free to ignore completely as not fitting your narrative, but in case these photos are not entirely fabricated, this is pretty worrisome. Especially interesting to see that there are hardly any German flags visible. But then Germans are reaping what they sowed.
What did we sow?
Quote from: Zanza on August 01, 2016, 12:29:31 AM
What did we sow?
A misguided multikulti policy.
Now you are having a 1.5 million minority (and that's just one of many) that doesn't identify at all with Germany or her values, but who support a brutal authoritarian dictator and a version of religion that is not compatible with your values.
I guess in less pussified times this would qualify as an invasion.
and now Turkey is threatening (again) to blow up the bad refugee-deal if they don't get visa-free travel for their 'citizens' (aka fascist drones).
Quote from: Crazy_Ivan80 on August 01, 2016, 01:23:24 AM
and now Turkey is threatening (again) to blow up the bad refugee-deal if they don't get visa-free travel for their 'citizens' (aka fascist drones).
Merkel signed a deal with the devil, so I guess she has noone but herself to blame. Unfortunately, I can see the Schengen Treaty as one of the first casualties of her idiocy.
It's sad that we have to rely on the likes of Hungary to defend the borders of Europe.
FWIW, Switzerland should leave Schengen *yesterday* and turn back all migrants at the border.
Addendum: Sargon really hits it out of the park in "This Week in Stupid". https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6wvNO7qnetM
(you can skip the first part about queer racist faeries, but it's funny as hell)
Quote from: Martinus on August 01, 2016, 12:31:51 AM
A misguided multikulti policy.
Germany never really had a multikulti policy, that was just by accident because politicians were inactive and rather looked away while parallel societies established themselves. What Germany did lack though and what leads to the current issues with parallel societies is an integration policy for immigrants. Actively setting a integration policy has been a very recent development and is still not where it should be.
French tourist beaten up in Turkey for refusing to hold up a Turkish flag:
https://twitter.com/conflicts/status/760041808789381120
I'd totally vacation there again.
Quote from: Hamilcar on August 01, 2016, 02:41:21 AM
FWIW, Switzerland should leave Schengen *yesterday* and turn back all migrants at the border.
Switzerland will leave Schengen next year when they cancel their bilaterals anyway.
Quote from: Zanza on August 01, 2016, 04:26:06 AM
Quote from: Hamilcar on August 01, 2016, 02:41:21 AM
FWIW, Switzerland should leave Schengen *yesterday* and turn back all migrants at the border.
Switzerland will leave Schengen next year when they cancel their bilaterals anyway.
The two issues are not related, and we're not cancelling the bilaterals.
Schengen is part of the Bilaterale II and if you cancel freedom of movement, you cancel the Bilaterale II as well. Schwexit.
Quote from: Zanza on August 01, 2016, 04:43:26 AM
Schengen is part of the Bilaterale II and if you cancel freedom of movement, you cancel the Bilaterale II as well. Schwexit.
We won't cancel the bilaterals. We'll get an exception/compromise like the Brits. The Brexiteers are our best friends right now. :bowler:
I'm kind of sympathetic to the right wing opinion here that if the EU wants to play hardball, we'll just charge transit fees through the Alps. Those tunnels ain't free.
Quote from: Zanza on August 01, 2016, 04:43:26 AM
Schengen is part of the Bilaterale II and if you cancel freedom of movement, you cancel the Bilaterale II as well. Schwexit.
Schengen is not an essential part of the freedom of movement and, AFAIK, the deal with Switzerland does not require them accepting Schengen. People get confused about this, but Schengen is a relatively late addition to the EU set up and the case of the UK, which was never part of the Schengen, proves it is quite optional.
Quote from: Zanza on August 01, 2016, 03:54:51 AM
Quote from: Martinus on August 01, 2016, 12:31:51 AM
A misguided multikulti policy.
Germany never really had a multikulti policy, that was just by accident because politicians were inactive and rather looked away while parallel societies established themselves. What Germany did lack though and what leads to the current issues with parallel societies is an integration policy for immigrants. Actively setting a integration policy has been a very recent development and is still not where it should be.
Has any country ever had a multikulti policy, then? I mean, these days, every time you mention the policy in the context of an European country, you get told that they never had it. Now, I get that France didn't really have it, but I thought Germany was actually a poster child of multiculturalism.
Quote from: Martinus on August 01, 2016, 04:57:57 AM
Has any country ever had a multikulti policy, then?
Canada?
Quote from: Hamilcar on August 01, 2016, 04:54:51 AM
I'm kind of sympathetic to the right wing opinion here that if the EU wants to play hardball, we'll just charge transit fees through the Alps. Those tunnels ain't free.
Hmm, land transport doesn't seem to be a policy area where I would try to build pressure as a land-locked enclave. The other side can just reciprocate with transit fees of their own...?
Quote from: Martinus on August 01, 2016, 04:55:36 AM
Schengen is not an essential part of the freedom of movement and, AFAIK, the deal with Switzerland does not require them accepting Schengen. People get confused about this, but Schengen is a relatively late addition to the EU set up and the case of the UK, which was never part of the Schengen, proves it is quite optional.
I know that, but what I didn't know is that the linkage only applies to the Bilaterale I, not the Bilaterale II. So Switzerland could cancel freedom of movement (and single market access) and keep Schengen or vice versa. Although the Bilaterale II without the Bilaterale I don't make that much sense.
Quote from: Zanza on August 01, 2016, 05:15:55 AM
Quote from: Hamilcar on August 01, 2016, 04:54:51 AM
I'm kind of sympathetic to the right wing opinion here that if the EU wants to play hardball, we'll just charge transit fees through the Alps. Those tunnels ain't free.
Hmm, land transport doesn't seem to be a policy area where I would try to build pressure as a land-locked enclave. The other side can just reciprocate with transit fees of their own...?
I'm fairly sure German and Italian industry will cave first upon having to pay say EUR 2000 per truck.
Democratic Spain is multikulti by design. I think it actually helps integrating immigrants, although our second generation immigrants are just reaching adulthood so it's still early to tell. The amount of north-African hotties in revealing summer dress that I get to ogle during my commute makes me optimistic, though. :hmm:
Quote from: celedhring on August 01, 2016, 05:27:44 AM
Democratic Spain is multikulti by design. I think it actually helps integrating immigrants, although our second generation immigrants are just reaching adulthood so it's still early to tell. The amount of north-African hotties in revealing summer dress that I get to ogle during my commute makes me optimistic, though. :hmm:
I wonder when will we get our first regular international footie players from an inmigrant background. My money is on Iñaki Williams, although Munir beat him for the honour of being the 1st one to play for the team. I don't count Bojan Krkic, though, as his case was a bit special.
Quote from: The Larch on August 01, 2016, 05:39:06 AM
Quote from: celedhring on August 01, 2016, 05:27:44 AM
Democratic Spain is multikulti by design. I think it actually helps integrating immigrants, although our second generation immigrants are just reaching adulthood so it's still early to tell. The amount of north-African hotties in revealing summer dress that I get to ogle during my commute makes me optimistic, though. :hmm:
I wonder when will we get our first regular international footie players from an inmigrant background. My money is on Iñaki Williams, although Munir beat him for the honour of being the 1st one to play for the team. I don't count Bojan Krkic, though, as his case was a bit special.
Well, he's never become a regular for Spain, but I don't know why you wouldn't count him if he did? Dad was a Yugoslav (serb) that moved here in the late 80s.
And my guess is Thiago Alcántara will be that one, but since he's from a Brazilian background he's outside the scope of the kind of immigration that makes Languish tick.
Quote from: celedhring on August 01, 2016, 05:48:22 AM
Quote from: The Larch on August 01, 2016, 05:39:06 AM
Quote from: celedhring on August 01, 2016, 05:27:44 AM
Democratic Spain is multikulti by design. I think it actually helps integrating immigrants, although our second generation immigrants are just reaching adulthood so it's still early to tell. The amount of north-African hotties in revealing summer dress that I get to ogle during my commute makes me optimistic, though. :hmm:
I wonder when will we get our first regular international footie players from an inmigrant background. My money is on Iñaki Williams, although Munir beat him for the honour of being the 1st one to play for the team. I don't count Bojan Krkic, though, as his case was a bit special.
Well, he's never become a regular for Spain, but I don't know why you wouldn't count him if he did? Dad was a Yugoslav (serb) that moved here in the late 80s.
In absolute terms he is, yeah (although IIRC Christiansen was also a full international in the early 90s), but they're oddities in the sense that they're not a reflection of widespread demographic changes and are more like one-off things.
I also mentioned the "becoming a regular" thing to rule out the blatant call-ups to prevent players eligible to play for more than one country from being "poached" by the national teams of their countries of origin, even if it's clear that they're not going to be part of the national team in the short term.
Quote from: The Larch on August 01, 2016, 05:54:04 AM
Quote from: celedhring on August 01, 2016, 05:48:22 AM
Quote from: The Larch on August 01, 2016, 05:39:06 AM
Quote from: celedhring on August 01, 2016, 05:27:44 AM
Democratic Spain is multikulti by design. I think it actually helps integrating immigrants, although our second generation immigrants are just reaching adulthood so it's still early to tell. The amount of north-African hotties in revealing summer dress that I get to ogle during my commute makes me optimistic, though. :hmm:
I wonder when will we get our first regular international footie players from an inmigrant background. My money is on Iñaki Williams, although Munir beat him for the honour of being the 1st one to play for the team. I don't count Bojan Krkic, though, as his case was a bit special.
Well, he's never become a regular for Spain, but I don't know why you wouldn't count him if he did? Dad was a Yugoslav (serb) that moved here in the late 80s.
In absolute terms he is, yeah (although IIRC Christiansen was also a full international in the early 90s), but they're oddities in the sense that they're not a reflection of widespread demographic cases and are more like one-off things.
I also mentioned the "becoming a regular" thing to rule out the blatant call-ups to prevent players eligible to play for more than one country from being "poached" by the national teams of their countries of origin, even if it's clear that they're not going to be part of the national team in the short term.
Christiansen was a one-hit wonder, too. Only played one game for Spain IIRC. Sucks, because I'm sure he would have enjoyed a long international career had he chosen Denmark instead.
Although it's true that Thiago grew up in Spain because his dad played for a certain team in the Spanish NW, he's also a reflection of the massive Latin-American immigration Spain has received these decades.
Quote from: celedhring on August 01, 2016, 05:58:10 AM
Quote from: The Larch on August 01, 2016, 05:54:04 AM
Quote from: celedhring on August 01, 2016, 05:48:22 AM
Quote from: The Larch on August 01, 2016, 05:39:06 AM
Quote from: celedhring on August 01, 2016, 05:27:44 AM
Democratic Spain is multikulti by design. I think it actually helps integrating immigrants, although our second generation immigrants are just reaching adulthood so it's still early to tell. The amount of north-African hotties in revealing summer dress that I get to ogle during my commute makes me optimistic, though. :hmm:
I wonder when will we get our first regular international footie players from an inmigrant background. My money is on Iñaki Williams, although Munir beat him for the honour of being the 1st one to play for the team. I don't count Bojan Krkic, though, as his case was a bit special.
Well, he's never become a regular for Spain, but I don't know why you wouldn't count him if he did? Dad was a Yugoslav (serb) that moved here in the late 80s.
In absolute terms he is, yeah (although IIRC Christiansen was also a full international in the early 90s), but they're oddities in the sense that they're not a reflection of widespread demographic cases and are more like one-off things.
I also mentioned the "becoming a regular" thing to rule out the blatant call-ups to prevent players eligible to play for more than one country from being "poached" by the national teams of their countries of origin, even if it's clear that they're not going to be part of the national team in the short term.
Christiansen was a one-hit wonder, too. Only played one game for Spain IIRC. Sucks, because I'm sure he would have enjoyed a long international career had he chosen Denmark instead.
Although it's true that Thiago grew up in Spain because his dad played for a certain team in the Spanish NW, he's also a reflection of the massive Latin-American immigration Spain has received these decades.
Yeah, Christiansen should have chosen to play for Denmark. He was not the kind of player Clemente wanted, for sure. :P
And just to show you how integrated Thiago is, I had totally forgotten about him when thinking about Spanish football players with foreign roots. :lol: IIRC he could have chosen to play either for Spain, Brasil or Italy. I believe he chose...wisely. Rafinha chose to play for Brasil, let's see how it goes for him. But yeah, in any case, the "son of a footballer" trope rules him out for the purposes of this exercise.
What about the bunch of Cameroonian kids that Barcelona has in the youth teams? Is any of them shaping up to be a top prospect?
Edit: Another one I have just remembered (and I should beat myself for it, as it's another former Celta player), Vicente Engonga, although I believe that his father was also a football player.
Quote from: The Larch on August 01, 2016, 06:06:39 AM
What about the bunch of Cameroonian kids that Barcelona has in the youth teams? Is any of them shaping up to be a top prospect?
I wish.
A few of them will probably end up being decent footballers, but I can't see any of them becoming a regular for Spain. Traoré (which we sold to Villa last year) had everything needed for that, except the trifling matter of lacking a brain.
EDIT: Jordi Mboula (love that name combo) is a regular for the Spain youth teams, but he's coasting on his athleticism, imho. I don't think he'll be able to leverage it into a top senior career.
Quote from: celedhring on August 01, 2016, 06:15:20 AM
Quote from: The Larch on August 01, 2016, 06:06:39 AM
What about the bunch of Cameroonian kids that Barcelona has in the youth teams? Is any of them shaping up to be a top prospect?
I wish.
A few of them will probably end up being decent footballers, but I can't see any of them becoming a regular for Spain. Traoré (which we sold to Villa last year) had everything needed for that, except the trifling matter of lacking a brain.
Well that's a pity, he was one of the few that seemed to have what it takes. I've just checked and he pledged back in 2014, together with an older brother who plays for Córdoba, to play for Mali instead of Spain, although he has not yet made his debut. There is also Balde Keita, who was born in a village in Girona and used to play for Barcelona's youth squads and now plays in Italy, but apparently he has switched to play for Senegal. Apparently he was never even called up for the U21 team, when he seems to be an established player in an important team like Lazio.
Edit: At Celta we have Pape Cheikh, a kid born in Senegal that came to Spain when he was 14 to play for some weird academy team in Palencia and is now playing for the U19 Spanish team, who seems to be good although we have only seen little from him at this point. I hope he gets more chances this season, as he has already played a few games for the 1st team last season.
Quote from: The Larch on August 01, 2016, 06:23:51 AM
Quote from: celedhring on August 01, 2016, 06:15:20 AM
Quote from: The Larch on August 01, 2016, 06:06:39 AM
What about the bunch of Cameroonian kids that Barcelona has in the youth teams? Is any of them shaping up to be a top prospect?
I wish.
A few of them will probably end up being decent footballers, but I can't see any of them becoming a regular for Spain. Traoré (which we sold to Villa last year) had everything needed for that, except the trifling matter of lacking a brain.
Well that's a pity, he was one of the few that seemed to have what it takes. I've just checked and he pledged back in 2014, together with an older brother who plays for Córdoba, to play for Mali instead of Spain, although he has not yet made his debut. There is also Balde Keita, who was born in a village in Girona and used to play for Barcelona's youth squads and now plays in Italy, but apparently he has switched to play for Senegal. Apparently he was never even called up for the U21 team, when he seems to be an established player in an important team like Lazio.
Baldé had lots of discipline problems that marred his Barcelona career, that's what landed him in Lazio eventually.
There is nothing more boring than listening to two Southern Europeans talking about soccer.
Quote from: Martinus on August 01, 2016, 06:44:00 AM
There is nothing more boring than listening to two Southern Europeans talking about soccer.
This is why you keep getting banned.
Quote from: alfred russel on August 01, 2016, 08:43:38 AM
Quote from: Martinus on August 01, 2016, 06:44:00 AM
There is nothing more boring than listening to two Southern Europeans talking about soccer.
This is why you keep getting banned.
But we all need to know that 'fact'.
Marty's got a point, and it can be expanded more generally. Nothing looks more boring or more silly than the spectacle of people discussing a sport that you yourself don't follow.
Quote from: Martinus on August 01, 2016, 06:44:00 AM
There is nothing more boring than listening to two Southern Europeans talking about soccer.
Yet it's the most interesting thing in this thread recently. Christiansen should indeed have played for Denmark, but like Emre Mor he didn't see major tournaments for Denmark. :(
Quote from: Martinus on August 01, 2016, 12:27:05 AM
http://www.breitbart.com/london/2016/07/31/pictures-huge-pro-erdogan-islamist-rally-germany/?utm_source=facebook&utm_medium=social (http://www.breitbart.com/london/2016/07/31/pictures-huge-pro-erdogan-islamist-rally-germany/?utm_source=facebook&utm_medium=social)
This is from Breitbart, so feel free to ignore completely as not fitting your narrative, but in case these photos are not entirely fabricated, this is pretty worrisome. Especially interesting to see that there are hardly any German flags visible. But then Germans are reaping what they sowed.
They have a real hard time identifying one who's who in the middle east. For instance, the Grey Wolves are an opposing group and Syrians come from a different country.
Quote from: DGuller on August 01, 2016, 08:50:55 AM
Marty's got a point, and it can be expanded more generally. Nothing looks more boring or more silly than the spectacle of people discussing a sport that you yourself don't follow.
For me the names dropping part is the worst.
Quote from: DGuller on August 01, 2016, 08:50:55 AM
Marty's got a point, and it can be expanded more generally. Nothing looks more boring or more silly than the spectacle of people discussing a sport that you yourself don't follow.
Agreed.
German foreign minister Steinmeier has visited Ankara. He's probably drunk tonight.
http://www.reuters.com/article/us-turkey-security-germany-idUSKBN13A0YC?il=0
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fs2.reutersmedia.net%2Fresources%2Fr%2F%3Fm%3D02%26amp%3Bd%3D20161115%26amp%3Bt%3D2%26amp%3Bi%3D1161794037%26amp%3Bw%3D%26amp%3Bfh%3D%26amp%3Bfw%3D%26amp%3Bll%3D780%26amp%3Bpl%3D468%26amp%3Bsq%3D%26amp%3Br%3DLYNXMPECAE17C&hash=70422850df1c7468112f3a1194fba1894f4a47ea)
QuoteTurkey says it's tired of 'two-faced' EU attitude
Turkey is "fed up" with European Union condescension in talks over its application to join the bloc, Foreign Minister Mevlut Cavusoglu said on Tuesday, reflecting Ankara's exasperation with EU criticism over human rights.
Cavusoglu's blunt comments, made as visiting German Foreign Minister Frank-Walter Steinmeier looked on, also highlighted Turkey's frustration with the fact that, after 11 years of negotiations, its prospects of joining the EU look more remote than ever.
"We are truly fed up of these statements degrading Turkey. The criteria are clear but there are double standards and a two-faced approach. This is what we don't like," Cavusoglu told a joint news conference.
The EU is treading a fine line in relations with Turkey: it needs Ankara's continued help in curbing a huge flow of refugees and migrants, especially from Syria, but is alarmed by Turkey's crackdown on opponents since the failure of a coup attempt in July.
Referring to an issue that could spell the end of Turkey's accession bid, Cavusoglu said that the Turkish people would decide whether or not to reinstate the death penalty.
Steinmeier said he had expressed concern about mass arrests and the treatment of the media since the failed coup, but also that Germany supported its NATO partner in fighting terrorism.
"I reported the worries that we have about the numerous arrests, mass arrests, and freedom of opinion and freedom of the press," he told reporters.
More than 110,000 people have been sacked or suspended in the crackdown that followed the putsch, and some 36,000 arrested. Media outlets have also been shut down.
At one point during the awkward news conference, a microphone was switched off as a German journalist tried to ask a question. "No freedom of media here, that's why," Cavusoglu joked caustically, in English.
"SADDENED AND DISTURBED"
Turkey has agreed to help control the flood of migrants into Europe in return for visa-free travel for Turks to Europe. But Brussels first wants Ankara to rein in anti-terrorism laws that it says are too broad.
Turkey has repeatedly refused to change the laws, saying they are necessary to combat its multiple security threats.
"It cannot be expected for us to stop our fight against terror or take a step back," Prime Minister Binali Yildirim told members of his ruling AK Party in parliament on Tuesday. "EU ambassadors cannot decide how the law will work in Turkey."
The bitter rhetoric from Turkey has increased since the release of a highly critical EU report last week that made clear its prospects of joining the 28-nation bloc have become more distant. "The latest report published by the EU has both saddened and disturbed us," Yildirim said.
Steinmeier said he was against the EU breaking off accession talks with Turkey. Alluding to the tense atmosphere, he thanked Cavusoglu for "a conversation today that was not very easy", but which he said had been open and honest.
Turkey has also accused its European allies of not doing enough in the fight against the Kurdistan Workers Party (PKK), which is considered a terrorist group by Ankara, the EU and Washington.
Cavusoglu said there were outstanding legal cases against 4,500 PKK members residing in Germany, but only three suspects had been sent back to Turkey so far. Steinmeier said he had no knowledge of the cases.
What the hell is that gold star thing?
It's not a real star.
Quote from: Valmy on November 15, 2016, 02:32:26 PM
What the hell is that gold star thing?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flag_of_Turkey#/media/File:T%C3%BCrkiye_Cumhuriyeti_Cumhurba%C5%9Fkanl%C4%B1%C4%9F%C4%B1_forsu.svg
QuotePresidential flag of Turkey. The 16 stars represent 16 claimed historical Turkic empires.
http://greece.greekreporter.com/2016/11/22/turkish-president-erdogan-lausanne-treaty-is-negotiable/
QuoteTurkish President Erdogan: Lausanne Treaty Is Negotiable
Turkish President Recep Tayyip Erdogan repeated a statement he first made over a month ago, saying that the Lausanne Treaty is subject to negotiation.
The 1923 Lausanne Treaty delineates the borders between Turkey and Greece. Turkish pro-government news website A Haber published new statements by the Turkish president.
"What would happen if Turkey stays away from Syria and elsewhere? Would there be peace and security in those regions?" Erdogan wondered aloud.
"The rules set by the victorious powers of World War II did not give Turkey the right to survival. With the Treaty of Sevres (1920), Turkey was divided in 7-8 pieces. Turkey did not accept that dichotomy that formed today's border. The debate on the Treaty of Lausanne begins at this point," the Turkish president continued.
"Of course we are content that we benefited from the Treaty of Lausanne. But it is a treaty that can be discussed. Under no circumstances is it sacred text. And of course we will discuss it," Erdogan noted.
And his statements continued: "We will work to ensure something better. They still attempt to trap us with the Lausanne Treaty. Please forgive us. I have the right to speak. We will make every effort to ensure the goals of 2023. We know that we will step on the foot of many sides. We will upset many interests. On this we will work together in each case. We are determined to steer Turkey ahead."
Well, that can only end in tears.
First Sykes-Picot, now Lausanne. What next, Versailles? Oh wait...
I don't think anyone will fight for Greece.
Erdogan has a dead brother? Who is Rosie?
What happens if two NATO countries fight each other, and both invoke Article 5...is that like dividing by 0? :P
Quote from: The Brain on November 22, 2016, 04:14:13 PM
I don't think anyone will fight for Greece.
but they're more than likely to fight against evil Turkey.
Cause in the end Greeks are preferred over turks
Quote from: Tonitrus on November 23, 2016, 12:41:23 AM
What happens if two NATO countries fight each other, and both invoke Article 5...is that like dividing by 0? :P
Not sure but if any NATO country invokes Article 5, while the UK has invoked Article 50, the British will only send a tithe of their committed forces to said country. :P
Quote from: Barrister on November 23, 2016, 01:44:14 PM
Quote from: Crazy_Ivan80 on November 23, 2016, 01:40:55 PM
Cause in the end Greeks are preferred over turks
:hmm:
Except perhaps in Languish, namely the North Americans for some reason. ;)
Quote from: Barrister on November 23, 2016, 01:44:14 PM
Quote from: Crazy_Ivan80 on November 23, 2016, 01:40:55 PM
Cause in the end Greeks are preferred over turks
:hmm:
We'll remember that one at the next Siege of Vienna. Ottoman stoolie.
Quote from: CountDeMoney on November 23, 2016, 02:49:16 PM
Quote from: Barrister on November 23, 2016, 01:44:14 PM
Quote from: Crazy_Ivan80 on November 23, 2016, 01:40:55 PM
Cause in the end Greeks are preferred over turks
:hmm:
We'll remember that one at the next Siege of Vienna. Ottoman stoolie.
Oh come on - ripping on the Greeks is a Languish tradition! :(
Quote from: Crazy_Ivan80 on November 23, 2016, 01:40:55 PM
Quote from: The Brain on November 22, 2016, 04:14:13 PM
I don't think anyone will fight for Greece.
but they're more than likely to fight against evil Turkey.
Cause in the end Greeks are preferred over turks
Turkey isn't in the EU. Greece is. Turkey taking Greece = win.
Quote from: Tonitrus on November 23, 2016, 12:41:23 AM
What happens if two NATO countries fight each other, and both invoke Article 5...is that like dividing by 0? :P
As Article 5 is a defensive article, the one being attacked gets to invoke it.
Quote from: Drakken on November 23, 2016, 04:59:23 PM
Quote from: Tonitrus on November 23, 2016, 12:41:23 AM
What happens if two NATO countries fight each other, and both invoke Article 5...is that like dividing by 0? :P
As Article 5 is a defensive article, the one being attacked gets to invoke it.
Good thing two countries at war never both claim to be defenders.
EU parliament has voted to freeze membership talks with Turkey.
Erdogan says Turkey does more to defend European values than the EU does (EU harbors terrorists!) and threatens to open the borders and let the refugees go their merry way.
Quote from: Syt on November 25, 2016, 05:44:37 AM
EU parliament has voted to freeze membership talks with Turkey.
Erdogan says Turkey does more to defend European values than the EU does (EU harbors terrorists!) and threatens to open the borders and let the refugees go their merry way.
I wanted to resurrect the migration crisis megathread with this news, as it seems like 3 million non-white people are about to be kicked out of Turkey as things go, and that will get most of the European population go apeshit nazi.
Quote from: Tamas on November 25, 2016, 05:48:13 AM
I wanted to resurrect the migration crisis megathread with this news, as it seems like 3 million non-white people are about to be kicked out of Turkey as things go, and that will get most of the European population Hungary go apeshit nazi.
FYP
Quote from: Drakken on November 25, 2016, 09:16:39 AM
Quote from: Tamas on November 25, 2016, 05:48:13 AM
I wanted to resurrect the migration crisis megathread with this news, as it seems like 3 million non-white people are about to be kicked out of Turkey as things go, and that will get most of the European population Hungary go apeshit nazi.
FYP
Yeah. I am not convinced.
I think it's time to recognize that no Western nation is immune from going Nazi in reaction to the prospect of a lot of people not looking like them living near them. Maybe it's time for some cold-hearted pragmatism before the rest of the Western world goes hard right.
Germany will remain a shining beacon of social democracy as the rest of Europe goes far-right.
Quote from: HisMajestyBOB on November 25, 2016, 03:30:28 PM
Germany will remain a shining beacon of social democracy as the rest of Europe goes far-right.
Or we go far-right through Belgium... :ph34r:
Quote from: Zanza on November 25, 2016, 03:42:32 PM
Quote from: HisMajestyBOB on November 25, 2016, 03:30:28 PM
Germany will remain a shining beacon of social democracy as the rest of Europe goes far-right.
Or we go far-right through Belgium... :ph34r:
They See Us Schlieffen Plannin
They Be Hatin
Quote from: Drakken on November 25, 2016, 09:16:39 AM
Quote from: Tamas on November 25, 2016, 05:48:13 AM
I wanted to resurrect the migration crisis megathread with this news, as it seems like 3 million non-white people are about to be kicked out of Turkey as things go, and that will get most of the European population Hungary go apeshit nazi.
FYP
Hungary isn't exactly unique. There were a lot of tensions in France and in the UK. Heck, the UK voted on Brexit because it didn't want anymore migrants.
Quote from: HisMajestyBOB on November 25, 2016, 03:30:28 PM
Germany will remain a shining beacon of social democracy as the rest of Europe goes far-right.
until there's so many non-germans that Germany ceases to exist ;). Final victory: France.
Quote from: Crazy_Ivan80 on November 26, 2016, 11:28:47 AM
until there's so many non-germans that Germany ceases to exist ;). Final victory: France.
What is this "France" of which you speak? :huh:
Do you mean Northern Algeria?
https://www.ft.com/content/134e8364-bf14-11e6-9bca-2b93a6856354
QuoteTurkish constitution proposal gives more power to Erdogan
Draft proposes a system that would place Erdogan's office at center of all decisions
Turkey's ruling Justice and Development Party unveiled a controversial new draft constitution that not only strengthens the presidency, but also clears the way for Recep Tayyip Erdogan to potentially rule the country until 2029.
The draft, which must now be debated in parliament and then put to a nationwide referendum, is meant to replace Turkey's current constitution, which was written by a military government in the early 1980s. But in creating an empowered presidency - and sidelining the current role of the prime minister - the draft proposes a system of government that would place Mr Erdogan's office at the center of all decisions in Turkey.
"This package of proposals largely satisfies Erdogan's wish list as it gets very close to the full executive presidential system he has long sought," said Mujtaba Rahman, managing director at the Eurasia Group consultancy. "Not only is the Prime Minister's office abolished but parliament's role will be massively diluted - basically converting the legislative branch into something of a rubber stamp.
To a large extent, that's how Mr Erdogan currently runs the country, while occupying a presidency that is far more ceremonial under the law. After crushing a coup in July, and disposing of an independent prime minister earlier this year, Mr Erdogan has cemented his role as the country's most powerful politician since Mustafa Kemal Ataturk, who founded the republic in 1923.
Currently endowed with emergency powers, Mr Erdogan rules by decree, which has allowed him to reshape the country's opposition through threats, jailings and a near-complete news blackout. Mr Erdogan - and his allies - have argued that Mr Erdogan's robust response to threats - from terrorism, coup-mongers and economic crises - have tested the current constitution, making immediate reform necessary.
The bill is the result of "a national agreement, a proposition based on Turkey's needs and experience of government, proposed by two parties", said Abdulhamit Gul, the secretary general of the party, also known as the AKP.
He was referring to the new-found support of the nationalist opposition, which now allows Mr Erdogan to cross the 330-vote barrier needed in parliament to put the 21-article draft to a nationwide referendum.
That opposition, known as the MHP, has seen its support in the country wither away as Mr Erdogan has appropriated their key public policy position, smashing a Kurdish opposition with military actions in their south-eastern strongholds and jailing their democratically elected leaders under suspicion of ties to an outlawed Kurdish militancy. An alliance with the AKP returns them to the political center-stage.
Mr Erdogan will now be campaigning for legislators and the nation to support the reform just as the country prepares to enter an economic slowdown and deals with a wave of terrorist attacks, including one in central Istanbul hours after the draft was unveiled and a crisis in its relationship with the EU.
"The fact the package seems so tailor made to Erdogan and the MHP has made such major concessions increases the risk the package won't secure sufficient political support or that the referendum will fail," said Mr Rahman "To limit this risk, we're likely to see more economic populism, a more hawkish stance against the Kurds and the risk of a more volatile foreign policy, all designed to rally nationalists around the flag."
Well this probably ends any possibility of Turkey ever working as a multi-national state if the one Turkish politician the Kurds ever supported turns on them.
I know it keeps happening but it still baffles me how somebody can be as corrupt and vile as people like Erdogan. His country will never be the same, he is doing lasting damage that make it incredibly unlikely Turkey will ever make it as a successful country with strong institutions. How can somebody be that selfish?
Quote from: Valmy on December 12, 2016, 09:25:57 AM
Well this probably ends any possibility of Turkey ever working as a multi-national state if the one Turkish politician the Kurds ever supported turns on them.
I know it keeps happening but it still baffles me how somebody can be as corrupt and vile as people like Erdogan. His country will never be the same, he is doing lasting damage that make it incredibly unlikely Turkey will ever make it as a successful country with strong institutions. How can somebody be that selfish?
Nobody ever thinks of himself as the villain of the piece. I'm sure he's rationalized that's all in the best for the "good guys" (whoever he considers the good guys to be).
Quote from: celedhring on December 12, 2016, 09:38:38 AM
Nobody ever thinks of himself as the villain of the piece. I'm sure he's rationalized that's all in the best for the "good guys" (whoever he considers the good guys to be).
I am aware. Even Chavez probably thought he really was the good guy as he ruined Venezuela and stole a billion dollars. The psychology behind it is amazing though.
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/turkey-arrests-1656-people-supporting-terrorism-online-a7494466.html
QuoteTurkey arrests 1,656 people for 'supporting terrorism' online
Interior Ministry announces it is investigating at least 10,000 others for alleged activity
Turkey has arrested 1,656 people in the past six months for allegedly supporting terrorism or insulting officials on social media.
The Interior Ministry also announced it was investigating at least 10,000 others for their alleged activity online.
In a statement, the ministry said legal action had been taken against 3,710 people identified by police. A further 1,203 people were released on probation, an additional 767 were released and 84 others are still in detention.
Charges include allegedly provoking hatred among the people; praising terrorist organisations; disseminating terrorist propaganda; openly declaring allegiance to terrorist groups; insulting statesmen; and targeting the indivisibility of the state or safety of citizens.
Turkey has detained thousands of citizens and purged tens of thousands of public servants accusing them of alleged ties to outlawed groups since the failed coup in July
The Government has cited ongoing terrorism as the justification for its actions but human rights groups and legal experts have repeatedly expressed their concerns.
Turkey frequently restricts access to social media websites to prevent spread of any material which could harm public order or security.
On Friday, access was restricted to social media websites for several hours after the Islamic State group released a video showing two Turkish soldiers being burned alive.
Apparently a cook who works at the Cumhürriyet offices (a paper critical or Erdogan) because he said if Erdogan showed up at his workplace he wouldn't serve him tea. Charge: insulting the president (up to 4 years jail time). :wacko:
Don't look at me. I'm not going to defend this bullshit anymore.
http://www.wsj.com/articles/turkey-readies-enhanced-powers-for-president-1484927153
QuoteTurkey's Parliament Approves Enhanced Powers for President
Lawmakers pass constitutional overhauls sought by Erdogan; public vote is next
ISTANBUL—Turkey passed a sweeping constitutional reform package early Saturday that could amplify the powers of the presidency and give President Recep Tayyip Erdogan the possibility of extending his authority by at least a decade.
The bill, which passed through the final vote with 339 votes in parliament, will be submitted to a national referendum in the spring. All 18 articles of the legislation easily amassed more than enough support from the ruling party and its allies in earlier rounds of voting, making its passage in the final stage appear certain.
Turkey's ruling Justice and Development Party, or AKP, has described the referendum as a popular vote on Mr. Erdogan himself. Victory would allow him to seek two more five-year terms after his current one ends in 2019, and give him or any future leader more direct influence over parliament as well as the judiciary.
The president's supporters say the overhauls are the nation's best path to stability at a time when it is facing fears of a prolonged economic slump, counterterrorism fights at home and across its borders, and the fallout from a failed coup in July.
Opponents of the measures said that debating and voting on sweeping changes to the nation's power structure under a state of emergency when the president's political opponents are being jailed is a dangerous move that underscores what they see as Mr. Erdogan's authoritarian tendencies and weakens democratic checks and balances.
"We are on a speeding train going off a cliff," said Utku Cakirozer, a parliamentarian for the main opposition People's Republican Party.
Mr. Erdogan has marshaled nine Justice and Development Party election victories since 2002, making him one of the most successful democratic leaders in the history of the republic, in part due to the party's record of pro-business policies and social reforms.
Since the violent mutiny in July, Turkish authorities have used extraordinary powers under a state of emergency to purge more than 140,000 civil servants and military personnel accused of supporting the alleged coup plotters; 40,000 of them are under detention.
They have also jailed the top leadership of a pro-Kurdish political party that in the November 2015 national elections became the third-largest party in parliament, with 59 seats. As well, the government has closed more than 169 media outlets since the summer.
The constitutional reforms include measures that would allow Mr. Erdogan, who became the first directly elected president in 2014, to rule until 2029 with the sort of executive powers that are similar to the U.S. system.
The changes would allow the president to issue decrees, declare a state of emergency, appoint ministers and senior state employees and exert more authority over the judiciary.
Another major change would allow the president to be the head of his political party, something that has been prohibited for much of Turkey's history as a republic.
The second round of voting on the closely watched bill started on Wednesday, after weeks of debate.
Following parliament's passage of the bill, it will be submitted to Mr. Erdogan, who has 15 days to sign it. It will then be the subject of a public referendum likely to be held between late March and mid-April, according to state-run Anadolu news agency.
Mr. Erdogan has long advocated for a presidential system similar to the U.S. and Russia, and argues that Turkey can fend off existential threats only with a strong and efficient state.
His ruling AKP has been working on the constitutional measures for more than a year and had made it a pillar of their legislative agenda.
Since becoming Turkey's first directly elected president in 2014 after three terms as prime minister, Mr. Erdogan has said his popular mandate has already effectively transformed the presidency, imbuing it with de facto executive powers.
The ruling AKP is 13 lawmakers short of the 330 votes needed to adopt the legislation. It has relied mainly on members from the Nationalist Movement Party, or MHP, to reach the threshold in the parliamentary voting, while other, larger opposition blocs have opposed the bill.
The opposition—including some nationalists—says that expanding presidential powers will erode democracy, destroy the separation of powers and establish one-man rule.
It's similar to Hitler's Enabling Act of 1933. This is the end of parliament in Turkey and establishing a full dictatorship.
Quote from: Razgovory on December 27, 2016, 02:24:32 PM
Don't look at me. I'm not going to defend this bullshit anymore.
Derspiess will probably say the same thing in around 3.5 years time. :P
https://www.thelocal.de/20170303/turkey-minister-cancels-germany-trip-over-rally-ban
QuoteTurkey minister cancels Germany trip over rally ban
Turkey's justice minister said Thursday he scrapped a visit to Germany after authorities there blocked a rally promoting a referendum that could expand President Recep Tayyip Erdogan's powers.
The Turkish government also on Thursday summoned Germany's ambassador to protest the cancellation of the rallies.
Turkey's Justice Minister Bekir Bozdag had scrapped his visit to Germany after the authorities blocked a rally where we was set to speak to the Turkish community in Gaggenau, Baden-Württemberg, late on Thursday.
A bomb threat was reported on Friday morning by Gaggenau's mayor, causing authorities to evacuate the town hall, broadcaster N-tv reported.
Bozdag was also scheduled to meet his German counterpart during his visit.
"Our discomfort and our reaction to these developments have been communicated in person to the German ambassador who was summoned this evening to the (foreign) ministry," a senior Turkish official said on condition of anonymity.
The new row adds to tensions between Turkey and Germany over a number of disputes including Ankara's provisional detention of a German journalist on terrorism-related charges.
"That meeting with (the German justice minister) will not take place. I will return to Turkey," Bozdag said while on an official visit to Strasbourg, in remarks carried by N-tv.
The move comes after Gaggenau authorities withdrew an earlier agreement with the Union of European Turkish Democrats (UETD) to hold a rally, with Bozdag as the guest speaker, saying that the hall did not have the capacity to host so many people.
"Because the event is now known across the region, the city expects a large number of visitors. However, the Bad Rotenfels hall (in Gaggenau), parking lots and access road are insufficient to meet that demand," the town's authorities said in a statement.
"Due to these reasons, the hall rental agreement with the UETD has been revoked," it added.
'Building Berlin walls'
Bozdag condemned the move, claiming it smacked of hypocrisy.
"It is unacceptable that German authorities, who constantly lecture us about human rights, democracy, rule of law, free speech... do not tolerate a meeting organised by the Turkish community," he said.
Turkish politicians including Prime Minister Binali Yildirim have sparked controversy over their visits to Germany to hold political rallies.
Germany is home to about three million people of Turkish origin, the legacy of a massive "guest worker" programme in the 1960s-70s, the biggest population of Turks outside of Turkey.
Erdogan's government is keen to harness their votes for the April 16th referendum, which would discard the post of prime minister for the first time in Turkey's history.
The Turkish government says the changes would bring stability while critics say the new presidential system would cement one-man rule in the country.
Separately, Cologne city authorities said they would no longer allow the UETD to use a hall on Sunday, when Turkish Economy Minister Nihat Zeybekci was expected to make a rally speech.
"The event can and will not happen there," a spokeswoman for Cologne city authorities told AFP, citing difficulties in guaranteeing security at such short notice.
It was unclear if Zeybekci would be able to find an alternative site.
In a series of tweets, Turkey's EU affairs minister Omer Celik slammed the German authorities' move, saying it would be a "success for racists."
"By behaving so, they (German authorities) are harming the bridges between the democracies and building ideological Berlin walls that cut off people from each other," Celik wrote.
Relations between the two NATO allies Turkey and Germany have soured following a series of disputes since the failed coup bid to oust Erdogan last July.
An Istanbul court ordered Monday provisional detention for Deniz Yucel, 43, a correspondent of the German newspaper Die Welt, criticised by Chancellor Angela Merkel as "bitter and disappointing".
Berlin's sharp criticism of Ankara's massive crackdown after the failed putsch has also irked Turkey.
http://www.thelocal.at/20170301/turkey-angry-after-erdogan-is-told-he-cant-campaign-in-austria
QuoteTurkey angry after Erdogan is told he can't campaign in Austria
Turkey has slammed Austria's "double standard" and "irresponsible" approach to potential campaigning by President Recep Tayyip Erdogan in the EU member state ahead of April's referendum.
Austrian Foreign Minister Sebastian Kurz said Erdogan is "not welcome" to hold campaign events, adding that it would "increase friction" in Austria and prevent the integration of a 360,000-strong minority of Turkish origin.
"We do not accept those irresponsible comments that exceed their limits and the distorted mentality," Turkish foreign ministry spokesman Huseyin Muftuoglu said in a statement late on Monday.
Kurz's comments are a "new example of a biased and double standard approach", he added.
Turkey will hold an April 16th referendum on changing the constitution to give Erdogan an executive presidency along the lines of that in France or in the United States.
The Turkish government says the changes would bring stability while opponents fear it would hugely boost Erdogan's powers and drag Turkey into one-man rule.
Speaking in Vienna on Monday, Kurz said his government was clearly against bringing the "the Turkish campaign and (the resulting) polarisation to Austria" in remarks deemed as "worrying" by the Turkish foreign ministry.
it would be nice if european goverments told those turks that keep voting for Erdogan that their one way ticket back to Turkey has been prepared and is waiting for them.
They should, after all, go live and enjoy the rule of the leader they adore so much. :glare:
Turkey is really starting to flip its lid.
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-39156138
QuoteErdogan anger as Germany-Turkey war of words escalates
A row between Ankara and Berlin over a series of cancelled Turkish political rallies in Germany is continuing to escalate.
On Friday, Turkish President Recep Tayyip Erdogan accused Berlin of "aiding and harbouring" terror.
He said a German-Turkish journalist detained by Turkey was a "German agent" and a member of the outlawed Kurdish militant group, the PKK.
A source in Germany's foreign ministry told Reuters the claims were "absurd".
Earlier German Chancellor Angela Merkel said she respected local authorities' decisions to cancel rallies that Turkey's justice and economy ministers had been scheduled to address.
Turkey is trying to woo ethnic Turkish voters ahead of a key referendum.
About 1.4m Turks living in Germany are eligible to vote in the April referendum, in which President Erdogan aims to win backing for sweeping new powers.
The constitutional changes would boost Mr Erdogan's presidency and significantly weaken parliament's role.
Turkish officials have been angered after local German officials withdrew permission for rallies in Gaggenau, Cologne and Frechen.
Gaggenau authorities had said there was insufficient space for the rally, while Cologne officials said they had been misled about the purpose of the event.
Turkish Justice Minister Bekir Bozdag, who had been due to speak in Gaggenau, said he saw "old illnesses flaring up" between the two Nato allies.
Meanwhile, Turkish Foreign Minister Mevlut Cavusoglu accused the German government of backing opposition to Mr Erdogan's planned constitutional changes.
He said: "You are not Turkey's boss. You are not a first class [country] and Turkey is not second class. We are not treating you like that, and you have to treat Turkey properly.
"If you want to maintain your relations with us, you have to learn how to behave."
Germany's foreign ministry said the central government had nothing to do with the cancellations, and Ankara should refrain from "pouring oil on the fire".
The growing row is troubling for Chancellor Merkel because she persuaded Turkey to help block the surge of migrants - many of them Syrian refugees - into the EU.
Separately, the Dutch government on Friday described plans for a Turkish referendum campaign rally in Rotterdam as "undesirable". Turkish Foreign Minister Mevlut Cavusoglu was reportedly meant to attend the rally scheduled for 11 March.
'German spy'
Ties between Berlin and Istanbul are also strained over Turkey's arrest of Deniz Yucel, a journalist who works for Die Welt.
Mr Yucel "hid in the German embassy as a member of the PKK and a German agent for one month", Mr Erdogan said.
"When we told them to hand him over to be tried, they refused."
German's foreign ministry called the spy claims "absurd".
Ms Merkel, referring to the case earlier, told reporters in Tunis: "We support freedom of expression and we can criticise Turkey."
German Justice Minister Heiko Maas sent his Turkish counterpart, Mr Bozdag, a sharply-worded letter warning against "dismantling the rule of law".
He said the Turkish treatment of Mr Yucel was "disproportionate".
"If Turkey fails to uphold core European values, then closer relations with the European Union will become more difficult, or impossible," he wrote.
In Turkey, dozens of writers and journalists have been arrested in a far-reaching crackdown that followed a failed coup against Mr Erdogan in July 2016.
A large number Turkish diplomats and soldiers have sought asylum in Germany since the coup attempt, a further source of bilateral tension.
That's gonna help him win the referendum, sadly.
Quote from: celedhring on March 04, 2017, 03:33:36 AM
That's gonna help him win the referendum, sadly.
Submission to his whims too, so no reason to comply with the
diktat of the wannabe caliph and/or his fifth column.
Quote from: Syt on March 04, 2017, 03:32:08 AM
Turkey is really starting to flip its lid.
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-39156138
QuoteErdogan anger as Germany-Turkey war of words escalates
A row between Ankara and Berlin over a series of cancelled Turkish political rallies in Germany is continuing to escalate.
On Friday, Turkish President Recep Tayyip Erdogan accused Berlin of "aiding and harbouring" terror.
He said a German-Turkish journalist detained by Turkey was a "German agent" and a member of the outlawed Kurdish militant group, the PKK.
A source in Germany's foreign ministry told Reuters the claims were "absurd".
Earlier German Chancellor Angela Merkel said she respected local authorities' decisions to cancel rallies that Turkey's justice and economy ministers had been scheduled to address.
Turkey is trying to woo ethnic Turkish voters ahead of a key referendum.
About 1.4m Turks living in Germany are eligible to vote in the April referendum, in which President Erdogan aims to win backing for sweeping new powers.
The constitutional changes would boost Mr Erdogan's presidency and significantly weaken parliament's role.
Turkish officials have been angered after local German officials withdrew permission for rallies in Gaggenau, Cologne and Frechen.
Gaggenau authorities had said there was insufficient space for the rally, while Cologne officials said they had been misled about the purpose of the event.
Turkish Justice Minister Bekir Bozdag, who had been due to speak in Gaggenau, said he saw "old illnesses flaring up" between the two Nato allies.
Meanwhile, Turkish Foreign Minister Mevlut Cavusoglu accused the German government of backing opposition to Mr Erdogan's planned constitutional changes.
He said: "You are not Turkey's boss. You are not a first class [country] and Turkey is not second class. We are not treating you like that, and you have to treat Turkey properly.
"If you want to maintain your relations with us, you have to learn how to behave."
Germany's foreign ministry said the central government had nothing to do with the cancellations, and Ankara should refrain from "pouring oil on the fire".
The growing row is troubling for Chancellor Merkel because she persuaded Turkey to help block the surge of migrants - many of them Syrian refugees - into the EU.
Separately, the Dutch government on Friday described plans for a Turkish referendum campaign rally in Rotterdam as "undesirable". Turkish Foreign Minister Mevlut Cavusoglu was reportedly meant to attend the rally scheduled for 11 March.
'German spy'
Ties between Berlin and Istanbul are also strained over Turkey's arrest of Deniz Yucel, a journalist who works for Die Welt.
Mr Yucel "hid in the German embassy as a member of the PKK and a German agent for one month", Mr Erdogan said.
"When we told them to hand him over to be tried, they refused."
German's foreign ministry called the spy claims "absurd".
Ms Merkel, referring to the case earlier, told reporters in Tunis: "We support freedom of expression and we can criticise Turkey."
German Justice Minister Heiko Maas sent his Turkish counterpart, Mr Bozdag, a sharply-worded letter warning against "dismantling the rule of law".
He said the Turkish treatment of Mr Yucel was "disproportionate".
"If Turkey fails to uphold core European values, then closer relations with the European Union will become more difficult, or impossible," he wrote.
In Turkey, dozens of writers and journalists have been arrested in a far-reaching crackdown that followed a failed coup against Mr Erdogan in July 2016.
A large number Turkish diplomats and soldiers have sought asylum in Germany since the coup attempt, a further source of bilateral tension.
I've actually had some targeted ads appear today in my Twitter timeline from some kind of oficial Turkish PR account claiming that Germany harbours lots of PKK terrorists. Makes me thing they had this campaign ready to be deployed just in case.
Quote from: The Larch on March 04, 2017, 01:55:04 PM
Quote from: Syt on March 04, 2017, 03:32:08 AM
Turkey is really starting to flip its lid.
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-39156138
I've actually had some targeted ads appear today in my Twitter timeline from some kind of oficial Turkish PR account claiming that Germany harbours lots of PKK terrorists. Makes me thing they had this campaign ready to be deployed just in case.
maybe a german PR campaign should talk about all the IS-terrorists Turkey allowed into Syria...
Quote from: Crazy_Ivan80 on March 04, 2017, 02:46:27 PM
Quote from: The Larch on March 04, 2017, 01:55:04 PM
Quote from: Syt on March 04, 2017, 03:32:08 AM
Turkey is really starting to flip its lid.
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-39156138
I've actually had some targeted ads appear today in my Twitter timeline from some kind of oficial Turkish PR account claiming that Germany harbours lots of PKK terrorists. Makes me thing they had this campaign ready to be deployed just in case.
maybe a german PR campaign should talk about all the IS-terrorists Turkey allowed into Syria...
Who would be the target of such PR? And what would Germany try to achieve with that?
Quote from: The Larch on March 04, 2017, 01:55:04 PM
I've actually had some targeted ads appear today in my Twitter timeline from some kind of oficial Turkish PR account claiming that Germany harbours lots of PKK terrorists. Makes me thing they had this campaign ready to be deployed just in case.
It's Erdogan's standard line when he want's to bash Germany. His government has claimed several times in the past years that Turks in Germany are suppressed, can't gather, can't fly the Turkish flag and so on, while the PKK operates in the open (it can't of course, as it's considered a terrorist organization and supporting it a crime). One of his ministers actually claimed all that a year ago while attending a huge gathering of Turks in Germany, surrounded by a sea of Turkish flags. Completely surreal scene.
Quote from: Zanza on March 04, 2017, 02:57:12 PM
Quote from: Crazy_Ivan80 on March 04, 2017, 02:46:27 PM
maybe a german PR campaign should talk about all the IS-terrorists Turkey allowed into Syria...
Who would be the target of such PR? And what would Germany try to achieve with that?
Yeah, best not to get dragged down into the mud.
Turkey is trying the same thing here. They're sending a government delegation, perhaps even including Erdogan, for a political rally about their referendum. And just days before our general election.
There may not be a way to legally stop it, and to be honest I'm not sure it should be.
Quote from: Maladict on March 04, 2017, 05:27:47 PM
Turkey is trying the same thing here. They're sending a government delegation, perhaps even including Erdogan, for a political rally about their referendum. And just days before our general election.
There may not be a way to legally stop it, and to be honest I'm not sure it should be.
you don't let hostile governemnts campaign in your country.
Quote from: Crazy_Ivan80 on March 05, 2017, 03:24:10 AM
Quote from: Maladict on March 04, 2017, 05:27:47 PM
Turkey is trying the same thing here. They're sending a government delegation, perhaps even including Erdogan, for a political rally about their referendum. And just days before our general election.
There may not be a way to legally stop it, and to be honest I'm not sure it should be.
you don't let hostile governemnts campaign in your country.
If our government wanted to speak to Dutch citizens living in Turkey, about domestic Dutch matters and they wouldn't be allowed to we'd be offended as well. And calling them a threat to freedom of expression (which, granted, they already are).
It's pretty usual in Spain to have politicians from Latin America come campaign among their emigrated constituencies.
Quote from: Maladict on March 05, 2017, 02:14:22 PM
Quote from: Crazy_Ivan80 on March 05, 2017, 03:24:10 AM
Quote from: Maladict on March 04, 2017, 05:27:47 PM
Turkey is trying the same thing here. They're sending a government delegation, perhaps even including Erdogan, for a political rally about their referendum. And just days before our general election.
There may not be a way to legally stop it, and to be honest I'm not sure it should be.
you don't let hostile governemnts campaign in your country.
If our government wanted to speak to Dutch citizens living in Turkey, about domestic Dutch matters and they wouldn't be allowed to we'd be offended as well. And calling them a threat to freedom of expression (which, granted, they already are).
I doubt the dutch government would be calling upon it's citizens over there (in so far as those wouldn't be turkish as well) to not be loyal to their new country, but instead act as a fifth column for the Netherlands. Nor would they ask these people to report on the enemy-of-the-Netherlands-of-the-day either.
Quote from: Crazy_Ivan80 on March 05, 2017, 04:11:18 PM
I doubt the dutch government would be calling upon it's citizens over there (in so far as those wouldn't be turkish as well) to not be loyal to their new country, but instead act as a fifth column for the Netherlands. Nor would they ask these people to report on the enemy-of-the-Netherlands-of-the-day either.
The exact same thing has already happened two years ago, and nobody cared. The situation is different now, of course, what with the general election and the Turkish situation.
But the government has no power to stop it. Only the mayor of Rotterdam can, and only if there is a concern about public safety at the rally itself. He will also need a judge to rule in his favour.
Quote from: Malicious Intent on March 04, 2017, 03:08:06 PM
Quote from: The Larch on March 04, 2017, 01:55:04 PM
I've actually had some targeted ads appear today in my Twitter timeline from some kind of oficial Turkish PR account claiming that Germany harbours lots of PKK terrorists. Makes me thing they had this campaign ready to be deployed just in case.
It's Erdogan's standard line when he want's to bash Germany. His government has claimed several times in the past years that Turks in Germany are suppressed, can't gather, can't fly the Turkish flag and so on, while the PKK operates in the open (it can't of course, as it's considered a terrorist organization and supporting it a crime). One of his ministers actually claimed all that a year ago while attending a huge gathering of Turks in Germany, surrounded by a sea of Turkish flags. Completely surreal scene.
I remember discussing Turkish issues with a Turkish friend once.
She dismissed the Turkish community in Germany as all being kurds.
No doubt she was exaggerating. But it would make sense for them to be over represented
Quote from: celedhring on March 05, 2017, 03:54:46 PM
It's pretty usual in Spain to have politicians from Latin America come campaign among their emigrated constituencies.
It's not fair comparing them to Herr Dogan though, is it? Or as "fair" as calling them
sudacas I guess.
Quote from: Duque de Bragança on March 07, 2017, 08:28:39 AM
Quote from: celedhring on March 05, 2017, 03:54:46 PM
It's pretty usual in Spain to have politicians from Latin America come campaign among their emigrated constituencies.
It's not fair comparing them to Herr Dogan though, is it? Or as "fair" as calling them sudacas I guess.
It is very fair when it comes to the law though. If we had a sizable Turkish minority that merited a visit from him, we couldn't stop Erdogan from campaigning here while allowing the others. Then again I won't comment on other countries' laws regarding these matters. Just wanted to point out that foreign politicians campaigning in one's country isn't such a weird occurrence.
Showing your age with "sudaca" btw. That slur is pretty passé nowadays.
Quote from: celedhring on March 07, 2017, 09:34:26 AM
Quote from: Duque de Bragança on March 07, 2017, 08:28:39 AM
Quote from: celedhring on March 05, 2017, 03:54:46 PM
It's pretty usual in Spain to have politicians from Latin America come campaign among their emigrated constituencies.
It's not fair comparing them to Herr Dogan though, is it? Or as "fair" as calling them sudacas I guess.
It is very fair when it comes to the law though. If we had a sizable Turkish minority that merited a visit from him, we couldn't stop Erdogan from campaigning here while allowing the others. Then again I won't comment on other countries' laws regarding these matters. Just wanted to point out that foreign politicians campaigning in one's country isn't such a weird occurrence.
Showing your age with "sudaca" btw. That slur is pretty passé nowadays.
Erdogan-style political campaign is more than a "weird" occurence. As for laws, there rights and duties. Using these rallies for fifth columns is not a right. The taqqiya-based politics of Islamists is not a fair use of rights, specially when he violates basic rights at home.
Stop finding excuses to islamist politicians all the time. I know you on the left love islam but your arses are on the line too.
FFS, even Raz stopped defending him.
You'll tell sudaca is pretty passé to those who still get called that. Oh, and passé is not the same as un-PC. :secret:
Quote from: Tyr on March 07, 2017, 02:18:13 AM
I remember discussing Turkish issues with a Turkish friend once.
She dismissed the Turkish community in Germany as all being kurds.
No doubt she was exaggerating. But it would make sense for them to be over represented
Kurds are strongly represented (Kurds made up 1/3 of the original wave of Turkish guest workers in the 60s), but they are not the majority among Turks in Germany. According to Wiki, there are 500.000 to 800.000 Kurds in Germany, but this also includes those from Iraq, Syria and Iran. We have around 3 million people with a Turkish migration background (including Turkish Kurds), half of them holding Turkish citizenship.
Quote from: Duque de Bragança on March 07, 2017, 09:43:16 AM
Quote from: celedhring on March 07, 2017, 09:34:26 AM
Quote from: Duque de Bragança on March 07, 2017, 08:28:39 AM
Quote from: celedhring on March 05, 2017, 03:54:46 PM
It's pretty usual in Spain to have politicians from Latin America come campaign among their emigrated constituencies.
It's not fair comparing them to Herr Dogan though, is it? Or as "fair" as calling them sudacas I guess.
It is very fair when it comes to the law though. If we had a sizable Turkish minority that merited a visit from him, we couldn't stop Erdogan from campaigning here while allowing the others. Then again I won't comment on other countries' laws regarding these matters. Just wanted to point out that foreign politicians campaigning in one's country isn't such a weird occurrence.
Showing your age with "sudaca" btw. That slur is pretty passé nowadays.
Erdogan-style political campaign is more than a "weird" occurence. As for laws, there rights and duties. Using these rallies for fifth columns is not a right. The taqqiya-based politics of Islamists is not a fair use of rights, specially when he violates basic rights at home.
Stop finding excuses to islamist politicians all the time. I know you on the left love islam but your arses are on the line too.
FFS, even Raz stopped defending him.
You'll tell sudaca is pretty passé to those who still get it called. Oh, and passé is not the same as un-PC. :secret:
Yeah, I don't see how Germany has any "duty" at all to allow any particular political party to come and say whatever they like. If they think Edrogan is a tool, they have every right to just tell him to stay home.
Whether they ought to do that or not is another question, of course - but that is a political question, not a question of rights or duties.
Quote from: Duque de Bragança link=topic=11962.msg1068093#msg1068093
Erdogan-style political campaign is more than a "weird" occurence. As for laws, there rights and duties. Using these rallies for fifth columns is not a right. The taqqiya-based politics of Islamists is not a fair use of rights, specially when he violates basic rights at home.
Stop finding excuses to islamist politicians all the time. I know you on the left love islam but your arses are on the line too.
FFS, even Raz stopped defending him.
You'll tell sudaca is pretty passé to those who still get it called. Oh, and passé is not the same as un-PC. :secret:
Oh, so I'm a culture traitor now? Whatever floats your boat man. I'm a pretty big believer on the strength of Western values, and in order to show that strength and serve as an example, you need to actually practice them and not be selective about who gets to benefit from them depending on which god they happen to pray.
That doesn't mean we to sit and smile while Erdogan bashes our society. But banning him? Yeah, I have trouble with that. If any Spanish politician could say what Erdogan says and not end up fined or whatever, Erdogan can say it. That's my bar.
I haven't heard the word "sudaca" in years, and that's because we have brand new slurs for Latin Americans. That's all I meant.
Edrogan can say whatever he likes. From Turkey.
He has no "right" to say anything in Germany unless Germany allows him to visit, and that choice is a political choice, not one of rights. There is no "western value" that says that a western country must allow anyone from another country in under any circumstances.
Quote from: Berkut on March 07, 2017, 10:25:30 AM
Edrogan can say whatever he likes. From Turkey.
He has no "right" to say anything in Germany unless Germany allows him to visit, and that choice is a political choice, not one of rights. There is no "western value" that says that a western country must allow anyone from another country in under any circumstances.
There is, imho, if the grounds of denying "right to visit" is limiting freedom or expression or other rights that anyone in Germany would enjoy. If what Erdogan says is something that any German citizen could say freely, I think he should be able to do that - if he otherwise would be allowed to visit. If there are laws in Germany that do limit what kind of things you can say in a political rally - fair enough. We have laws forbidding incitement against the Constitutional order, but our courts have set a very high bar for enforcement.
And I'm far, far from an Erdogan sympathizer. But I'm a big believer in leading by example, particularly when we're criticizing a politician for shutting down freedom of speech in his own country. We're better than him and we should show him that we're strong and confident enough to deal with his bullshit.
Quote from: celedhring on March 07, 2017, 10:35:37 AM
Quote from: Berkut on March 07, 2017, 10:25:30 AM
Edrogan can say whatever he likes. From Turkey.
He has no "right" to say anything in Germany unless Germany allows him to visit, and that choice is a political choice, not one of rights. There is no "western value" that says that a western country must allow anyone from another country in under any circumstances.
There is, imho, if the grounds of denying "right to visit" is limiting freedom or expression or other rights that anyone in Germany would enjoy. If what Erdogan says is something that any German citizen could say freely, I don't see the grounds for denying the visit - if he otherwise would be allowed. If there are laws in Germany that do limit what kind of things you can say in a political rally - fair enough. We have laws forbidding incitement against the Constitutional order, but our courts have set a very high bar for enforcement.
The grounds are simple. He is not a German citizen, and hence has no interest in promoting German values, and hence should not be (and indeed it would be foolish to assume) assumed to have the same rights a German has inside Germany.
Western values are a social contract - not something that exists in some perfect vaccum outside how they are used. We give citizens certain rights because we assume that overall, the exercise of a countries polity in a free and open manner is the best way to serve the interests of the society.
Allowing a non-German to come into Germany and have German rights to freedom of expression is foolishness. They have no stake in German values, whatever they might be, and their human rights to their own freedom of experssion are pefectly adequately expressed from wherever it is they are coming from.
It might be a matter of value to Germany to allow them to come into Germany and speak, and it might not. In most cases, it is probably of greater value for Germany to allow people to speak, even if they are not Germans. But the idea that a non-German has the *right* to visit Germany for the express purpose of engaging in political speech which may very well be completely detrimental to German interests is the kind of self-immolation that the left is accused of - forgetting that these idea of Western values are not theoretical ideals, but practical and real policies that have actual effects.
A German in Germany wants to speak out about the Turkish elections? Knock yourself out.
A Turk already in Germany (immigrant, guest worker) wants to do the same? OK - although I would be willing to accept that the desire to say certain things might be cause to consider allowing them to immigrate in the first place.
A Turk from Turkey wanting permission to visit Germany for the purpose of political speech? That person has no German "right" to visit Germany. This is a political decision, not a question of rights.
Fair enough, you probably have a point. I still believe that the political decision should always err on the side of allowing speech, if that same speech could be uttered by a German resident. Let's flip it: do we believe that European politicians should be able to travel to Turkey and criticize the Turkish regime while they are there? Because Merkel did that this February, although certainly in a more polite and restrained way that Erdogan would ever do.
Quote from: celedhring on March 07, 2017, 10:59:22 AM
Fair enough, you probably have a point. I still believe that the political decision should always err on the side of allowing speech, if that same speech could be uttered by a German resident. Let's flip it: do we believe that European politicians should be able to travel to Turkey and criticize the Turkish regime while they are there? Because Merkel did that this February, although certainly in a more polite and restrained way that Erdogan would ever do.
Yeah, I mean we didn't ban Ahmadinejad from speaking at Columbia. Government left that up to Columbia.
I would guess in Germany it would depend on who has the devolved powers to prevent such political rallying. AKA is it something that the local politicians have sway on or is it something higher up on level of banning said individuals from coming into the country (in the same way that UK has banned some foreign nationals for entering because of past speech).
Unless I missed some very recent development, Erdogan or his ministers are currently not forbidden from entering Germany, though there are some calls for a ban. Planned political rallies by the AKP have been banned on an individual level by the regional authorities, usually citing security concerns. The real reasons for the ban are of course Turkey's drift to authoritarian rule, constant verbal attacks by the AKP on German politicians and the fact that the AKP used these rallies in the past to actively oppose German interests.
Quote from: celedhring on March 07, 2017, 10:59:22 AM
Fair enough, you probably have a point. I still believe that the political decision should always err on the side of allowing speech, if that same speech could be uttered by a German resident. Let's flip it: do we believe that European politicians should be able to travel to Turkey and criticize the Turkish regime while they are there? Because Merkel did that this February, although certainly in a more polite and restrained way that Erdogan would ever do.
I think if Edrogan wanted to travel to Germany as the PM of Turkey, and while there he criticized Germany, that is basically fine - but again, the decision to let another head of state visit is a *political decision*. He doesn't have a "right" to visit.
If the head of North Korea wanted to travel to Germany, they certainly could refuse to let them in. They have no "*right* to visit.
I think Turkey has every right to deny entry to European politicians as well. Again, that is a political decision with political consequences.
Quote from: celedhring on March 07, 2017, 10:59:22 AM
Fair enough, you probably have a point. I still believe that the political decision should always err on the side of allowing speech, if that same speech could be uttered by a German resident. Let's flip it: do we believe that European politicians should be able to travel to Turkey and criticize the Turkish regime while they are there? Because Merkel did that this February, although certainly in a more polite and restrained way that Erdogan would ever do.
Criticism during official visits is nothing uncommon. You often see press conferences of two head of states who issue criticisms, though usually in a polite way.
Quote from: Berkut on March 07, 2017, 11:07:39 AM
I think Turkey has every right to deny entry to European politicians as well. Again, that is a political decision with political consequences.
See the crisis after the German parliament called the Armenian genocide a genocide (while clearing modern Turkey of any responsibility). Turkey answered by banning German MPs from visiting Bundeswehr troops in Incirlik.
Quote from: garbon on March 07, 2017, 11:02:47 AM
Quote from: celedhring on March 07, 2017, 10:59:22 AM
Fair enough, you probably have a point. I still believe that the political decision should always err on the side of allowing speech, if that same speech could be uttered by a German resident. Let's flip it: do we believe that European politicians should be able to travel to Turkey and criticize the Turkish regime while they are there? Because Merkel did that this February, although certainly in a more polite and restrained way that Erdogan would ever do.
Yeah, I mean we didn't ban Ahmadinejad from speaking at Columbia. Government left that up to Columbia.
I would guess in Germany it would depend on who has the devolved powers to prevent such political rallying. AKA is it something that the local politicians have sway on or is it something higher up on level of banning said individuals from coming into the country (in the same way that UK has banned some foreign nationals for entering because of past speech).
I was on campus that day, and it was a great triumph for freedom of speech. The guy got to say his piece, but he had to face pretty direct criticism from the Columbia speakers. He lashed out at that, but that's what freedom of speech is about.
Quote from: Berkut on March 07, 2017, 10:47:25 AM
The grounds are simple. He is not a German citizen, and hence has no interest in promoting German values, and hence should not be (and indeed it would be foolish to assume) assumed to have the same rights a German has inside Germany.
Western values are a social contract - not something that exists in some perfect vaccum outside how they are used. We give citizens certain rights because we assume that overall, the exercise of a countries polity in a free and open manner is the best way to serve the interests of the society.
Allowing a non-German to come into Germany and have German rights to freedom of expression is foolishness. They have no stake in German values, whatever they might be, and their human rights to their own freedom of experssion are pefectly adequately expressed from wherever it is they are coming from.
The German constitution clearly distinguishes between rights of humans and rights of citizens. Freedom of expression is a human right, not limited to citizens. So every person within the jurisdiction of our constitution has freedom of expression guaranteed, including the Turkish Wannabe-Sultan if he is allowed to come here.
As Turkey is still considered a friendly foreign state, its diplomats, including the president, are normally granted visa. Not sure if heads of state even need a visa under international common law. But Germany can clearly express that a visit is currently not politically feasible to their Turkish counterparts. So far Merkel didn't want to bite back at Erdogan. It's questionable whether that's the right approach. But then Turkey is still in NATO and associated with the EU, so it would be a bit strange to declare their president a persona non grata.
Quote from: Zanza on March 07, 2017, 01:20:16 PMThe German constitution clearly distinguishes between rights of humans and rights of citizens. Freedom of expression is a human right, not limited to citizens. So every person within the jurisdiction of our constitution has freedom of expression guaranteed, including the Turkish Wannabe-Sultan if he is allowed to come here.
Agreed. IIRC from my constitutional law classes, right of assembly, for example, is a citizen right ("Alle Deutschen haben das recht..."), which was debated when the PKK held demonstrations that blocked highways.
Quote from: celedhring on March 07, 2017, 10:35:37 AM
And I'm far, far from an Erdogan sympathizer. But I'm a big believer in leading by example, particularly when we're criticizing a politician for shutting down freedom of speech in his own country. We're better than him and we should show him that we're strong and confident enough to deal with his bullshit.
that's a reasoning that's unlikely to ever convince people like Erdogan and his fellow islamists (as well as his fellow autocrats). They already know our system is superior: which is why they want to prevent it spreading by any and all means necessary.
What they also know is that for the past few decades our societies lack the will to actually say no. And so his kind will merrily (ab)use our freedoms to chip away at them. And with success.
Democracy isn't a suicide pact, and as such is't okay to say no when needed.
Quote from: Zanza on March 07, 2017, 01:20:16 PM
Quote from: Berkut on March 07, 2017, 10:47:25 AM
The grounds are simple. He is not a German citizen, and hence has no interest in promoting German values, and hence should not be (and indeed it would be foolish to assume) assumed to have the same rights a German has inside Germany.
Western values are a social contract - not something that exists in some perfect vaccum outside how they are used. We give citizens certain rights because we assume that overall, the exercise of a countries polity in a free and open manner is the best way to serve the interests of the society.
Allowing a non-German to come into Germany and have German rights to freedom of expression is foolishness. They have no stake in German values, whatever they might be, and their human rights to their own freedom of experssion are pefectly adequately expressed from wherever it is they are coming from.
The German constitution clearly distinguishes between rights of humans and rights of citizens. Freedom of expression is a human right, not limited to citizens. So every person within the jurisdiction of our constitution has freedom of expression guaranteed, including the Turkish Wannabe-Sultan if he is allowed to come here.
Isn't that what I said?
Quote
As Turkey is still considered a friendly foreign state, its diplomats, including the president, are normally granted visa.
Political decision having nothing to do with those diplomats "rights".
Quote
Not sure if heads of state even need a visa under international common law.
I am not "sure", but yet I am sure. Because the alternative would say that under interntational law Germany has to let known criminals into Germany as long as they are "diplomats". I am quite confident that the issuance of diplomatic credentials is complete within a sovereign states powers, and has no bearing on rights at all.
Hence, issuance of such is a political act.
Quote
But Germany can clearly express that a visit is currently not politically feasible to their Turkish counterparts. So far Merkel didn't want to bite back at Erdogan. It's questionable whether that's the right approach. But then Turkey is still in NATO and associated with the EU, so it would be a bit strange to declare their president a persona non grata.
Almost as strange as the President of a fellow NATO power coming to your country to campaign on a platform of destroying the Western liberal values you cherish.
Again, all of this is politics. I am not saying Merkel should refuse to let Edrogan come fire up the masses, I am just saying the decision has nothing to with any of his "rights".
Quote from: Crazy_Ivan80 on March 07, 2017, 02:11:20 PM
Quote from: celedhring on March 07, 2017, 10:35:37 AM
And I'm far, far from an Erdogan sympathizer. But I'm a big believer in leading by example, particularly when we're criticizing a politician for shutting down freedom of speech in his own country. We're better than him and we should show him that we're strong and confident enough to deal with his bullshit.
that's a reasoning that's unlikely to ever convince people like Erdogan and his fellow islamists (as well as his fellow autocrats). They already know our system is superior: which is why they want to prevent it spreading by any and all means necessary.
What they also know is that for the past few decades our societies lack the will to actually say no. And so his kind will merrily (ab)use our freedoms to chip away at them. And with success.
Democracy isn't a suicide pact, and as such is't okay to say no when needed.
One thing that is really terrifying (to me anyway) is that for an Islamist, it doesn't matter that our way is provably "better" in the western sense of the word "better" - in that it does a superior job of providing happiness, wealth, equality, and freedom to people.
None of that matters, because they don't define better as being about any of those things. Better for an Islamist is more closely aligned with the the interpretation of the will of god. Not only is a poor, miserable, unfree, and misogynistic Islamic country vastly better than a rich, happy, free, and equal non-Islamist country, the existence of the latter is actually seen as simply an actively evil attempt the distract from what is actually important.
So we really cannot win by "proving" that the Western way is better, because for a Islamist, it is provably NOT better. If you believe what they believe
they are right. Wealth, happiness, health, freedom - these are all just unimportant values used by satan to distract us from what IS important.
Quote from: Berkut on March 07, 2017, 03:51:43 PM
Quote from: Zanza on March 07, 2017, 01:20:16 PM
Quote from: Berkut on March 07, 2017, 10:47:25 AM
The grounds are simple. He is not a German citizen, and hence has no interest in promoting German values, and hence should not be (and indeed it would be foolish to assume) assumed to have the same rights a German has inside Germany.
Western values are a social contract - not something that exists in some perfect vaccum outside how they are used. We give citizens certain rights because we assume that overall, the exercise of a countries polity in a free and open manner is the best way to serve the interests of the society.
Allowing a non-German to come into Germany and have German rights to freedom of expression is foolishness. They have no stake in German values, whatever they might be, and their human rights to their own freedom of experssion are pefectly adequately expressed from wherever it is they are coming from.
The German constitution clearly distinguishes between rights of humans and rights of citizens. Freedom of expression is a human right, not limited to citizens. So every person within the jurisdiction of our constitution has freedom of expression guaranteed, including the Turkish Wannabe-Sultan if he is allowed to come here.
Isn't that what I said?
You said one should not assume that Erdogan has the same rights as a German inside Germany, but when it comes to free speech he has the same rights as a German. So I don't think we said the same.
On whether he can come here in the first place we agree though. That's a privilege under political discretion.
Ahh, gotcha. Yes, I didn't express that particularly well.
Agree that once he is IN Germany, he has every right to say what he likes.
no privilege should be given: Turks are forbidden to campaign outside Turkey. Article 94A of Turkish electoral law prohibits this. So Erdogan has his clique of walking turds are breaking their own laws.
Quote from: Crazy_Ivan80 on March 11, 2017, 08:56:53 AM
no privilege should be given: Turks are forbidden to campaign outside Turkey. Article 94A of Turkish electoral law prohibits this. So Erdogan has his clique of walking turds are breaking their own laws.
It's not Germany's place to enforce Turkish laws, though, so this is irrelevant.
QuoteErdogan Calls Netherlands 'Fascists' After Minister's Plane Denied Permission to Land
The Dutch government withdrew permission for the foreign minister to touch down in Rotterdam. He had previously been barred from addressing a rally in the city.
The Dutch government on Saturday withdrew landing permission for the Turkish foreign minister's aircraft, drawing the ire of the Turkish president and escalating a diplomatic dispute between the two NATO allies over campaigning for a Turkish referendum on constitutional reform.
The Dutch government said in a statement it had withdrawn the permission because of "risks to public order and security" caused by the proposed visit of Foreign Minister Mevlut Cavusoglu to Rotterdam.
Turkish President Recep Tayyip Erdogan, referring to the Netherlands as 'fascists,' promised retaliation against Dutch diplomatic flights.
"You can stop our foreign minister's plane all you want, let's see how your planes will come to Turkey from now on," Erdogan said at a rally in Istanbul.
"They do not know politics or international diplomacy," said Erdogan and added, "these Nazi remnants, they are fascists," as the crowds booed.
"It's a crazy remark of course," Dutch Prime Minister Mark Rutte told journalists in response during campaigning for elections on March 15. "I understand they're angry, but this of course was way out of line."
Earlier Saturday, in an interview with private broadcaster CNN Turk, Cavusoglu said: "If the Netherlands cancels my flight permit, our sanctions to the Netherlands would be heavy."
He also repeated the government's charges that bans on rallies are "fascist practices."
Cavusoglu said that the German and Dutch bans on campaigns for a "yes" vote in the April 16 referendum on constitutional changes means that Europe is "taking a side for a 'no' vote." The constitutional changes would give the president more powers.
The Dutch government said it had been searching with Turkish authorities for an "acceptable solution" to Cavusoglu's plan to campaign in the Netherlands, but "before these talks were completed, Turkish authorities publicly threatened sanctions. That makes the search for a reasonable solution impossible."
The diplomatic row comes just days before the Netherlands goes to the polls in a March 15 election for the lower house of Parliament. The campaign has been dominated by issues of identity, with anti-Islam lawmaker Geert Wilders set to make strong gains.
Ahead of Saturday's decision, Wilders had accused the government of a weak response to Turkish plans to send ministers to the Netherlands to campaign.
The Dutch government said it does not object to meetings in the Netherlands to give information about the Turkish referendum, "but these meetings should not add to tensions in our society and everybody who wants to organize a meeting must adhere to instructions from authorities so that public order and security can be guaranteed."
It said the Turkish government "does not want to respect the rules in this matter."
Turkish President Tayyip Erdogan branded the Netherlands "Nazi remnants, fascists" on Saturday after the Dutch government withdrew permission for his Foreign Minister to land there.
The Dutch government on Saturday withdrew landing permission for the Turkish foreign minister's aircraft, escalating a diplomatic dispute between the two NATO allies over campaigning for a Turkish referendum on constitutional reform.
The Dutch government said in a statement it had withdrawn the permission because of "risks to public order and security" caused by the proposed visit of Foreign Minister Mevlut Cavusoglu to Rotterdam.
Earlier Saturday, in an interview with private broadcaster CNN Turk, Cavusoglu said: "If the Netherlands cancels my flight permit, our sanctions to the Netherlands would be heavy."
He also repeated the government's charges that bans on rallies are "fascist practices."
Cavusoglu said that the German and Dutch bans on campaigns for a "yes" vote in the April 16 referendum on constitutional changes means that Europe is "taking a side for a 'no' vote." The constitutional changes would give Turkish President Recep Tayyip Erdogan more powers.
The Dutch government said it was searching with Turkish authorities for an "acceptable solution" to Cavusoglu's plan to campaign in the Netherlands, but "before these talks were completed, Turkish authorities publicly threatened sanctions. That makes the search for a reasonable solution impossible."
The diplomatic row comes just days before the Netherlands goes to the polls in a March 15 election for the lower house of Parliament. The campaign has been dominated by issues of identity, with anti-Islam lawmaker Geert Wilders set to make strong gains.
Ahead of Saturday's decision, Wilders had accused the government of a weak response to Turkish plans to send ministers to the Netherlands to campaign.
The Dutch government said it does not object to meetings in the Netherlands to give information about the Turkish referendum, "but these meetings should not add to tensions in our society and everybody who wants to organize a meeting must adhere to instructions from authorities so that public order and security can be guaranteed."
It said the Turkish government "does not want to respect the rules in this matter."
http://www.haaretz.com/middle-east-news/turkey/1.776515 (http://www.haaretz.com/middle-east-news/turkey/1.776515)
The Great Khan of the Turks, al-caliph wannabe goes Godwin. :lol: Geert Wilders will probably benefit from it. Maybe the post-modern multiculturalist left should think about it. :)
Quote from: dps on March 11, 2017, 09:27:14 AM
Quote from: Crazy_Ivan80 on March 11, 2017, 08:56:53 AM
no privilege should be given: Turks are forbidden to campaign outside Turkey. Article 94A of Turkish electoral law prohibits this. So Erdogan has his clique of walking turds are breaking their own laws.
It's not Germany's place to enforce Turkish laws, though, so this is irrelevant.
it's an argument to be used against the fascist scum.
If arguments are still useful. It's probably better to start the deportations of Erdogan-supporters back to their "greener pasture"
Quote from: Duque de Bragança on March 11, 2017, 09:43:24 AM
QuoteErdogan Calls Netherlands 'Fascists' After Minister's Plane Denied Permission to Land
The Dutch government withdrew permission for the foreign minister to touch down in Rotterdam. He had previously been barred from addressing a rally in the city.
The Dutch government on Saturday withdrew landing permission for the Turkish foreign minister's aircraft, drawing the ire of the Turkish president and escalating a diplomatic dispute between the two NATO allies over campaigning for a Turkish referendum on constitutional reform.
The Dutch government said in a statement it had withdrawn the permission because of "risks to public order and security" caused by the proposed visit of Foreign Minister Mevlut Cavusoglu to Rotterdam.
Turkish President Recep Tayyip Erdogan, referring to the Netherlands as 'fascists,' promised retaliation against Dutch diplomatic flights.
"You can stop our foreign minister's plane all you want, let's see how your planes will come to Turkey from now on," Erdogan said at a rally in Istanbul.
"They do not know politics or international diplomacy," said Erdogan and added, "these Nazi remnants, they are fascists," as the crowds booed.
"It's a crazy remark of course," Dutch Prime Minister Mark Rutte told journalists in response during campaigning for elections on March 15. "I understand they're angry, but this of course was way out of line."
Earlier Saturday, in an interview with private broadcaster CNN Turk, Cavusoglu said: "If the Netherlands cancels my flight permit, our sanctions to the Netherlands would be heavy."
He also repeated the government's charges that bans on rallies are "fascist practices."
Cavusoglu said that the German and Dutch bans on campaigns for a "yes" vote in the April 16 referendum on constitutional changes means that Europe is "taking a side for a 'no' vote." The constitutional changes would give the president more powers.
The Dutch government said it had been searching with Turkish authorities for an "acceptable solution" to Cavusoglu's plan to campaign in the Netherlands, but "before these talks were completed, Turkish authorities publicly threatened sanctions. That makes the search for a reasonable solution impossible."
The diplomatic row comes just days before the Netherlands goes to the polls in a March 15 election for the lower house of Parliament. The campaign has been dominated by issues of identity, with anti-Islam lawmaker Geert Wilders set to make strong gains.
Ahead of Saturday's decision, Wilders had accused the government of a weak response to Turkish plans to send ministers to the Netherlands to campaign.
The Dutch government said it does not object to meetings in the Netherlands to give information about the Turkish referendum, "but these meetings should not add to tensions in our society and everybody who wants to organize a meeting must adhere to instructions from authorities so that public order and security can be guaranteed."
It said the Turkish government "does not want to respect the rules in this matter."
Turkish President Tayyip Erdogan branded the Netherlands "Nazi remnants, fascists" on Saturday after the Dutch government withdrew permission for his Foreign Minister to land there.
The Dutch government on Saturday withdrew landing permission for the Turkish foreign minister's aircraft, escalating a diplomatic dispute between the two NATO allies over campaigning for a Turkish referendum on constitutional reform.
The Dutch government said in a statement it had withdrawn the permission because of "risks to public order and security" caused by the proposed visit of Foreign Minister Mevlut Cavusoglu to Rotterdam.
Earlier Saturday, in an interview with private broadcaster CNN Turk, Cavusoglu said: "If the Netherlands cancels my flight permit, our sanctions to the Netherlands would be heavy."
He also repeated the government's charges that bans on rallies are "fascist practices."
Cavusoglu said that the German and Dutch bans on campaigns for a "yes" vote in the April 16 referendum on constitutional changes means that Europe is "taking a side for a 'no' vote." The constitutional changes would give Turkish President Recep Tayyip Erdogan more powers.
The Dutch government said it was searching with Turkish authorities for an "acceptable solution" to Cavusoglu's plan to campaign in the Netherlands, but "before these talks were completed, Turkish authorities publicly threatened sanctions. That makes the search for a reasonable solution impossible."
The diplomatic row comes just days before the Netherlands goes to the polls in a March 15 election for the lower house of Parliament. The campaign has been dominated by issues of identity, with anti-Islam lawmaker Geert Wilders set to make strong gains.
Ahead of Saturday's decision, Wilders had accused the government of a weak response to Turkish plans to send ministers to the Netherlands to campaign.
The Dutch government said it does not object to meetings in the Netherlands to give information about the Turkish referendum, "but these meetings should not add to tensions in our society and everybody who wants to organize a meeting must adhere to instructions from authorities so that public order and security can be guaranteed."
It said the Turkish government "does not want to respect the rules in this matter."
http://www.haaretz.com/middle-east-news/turkey/1.776515 (http://www.haaretz.com/middle-east-news/turkey/1.776515)
The Great Khan of the Turks, al-caliph wannabe goes Godwin. :lol: Geert Wilders will probably benefit from it. Maybe the post-modern multiculturalist left should think about it. :)
The Dutch government said they were not welcome given the circumstances, but they would not be stopped either. According to the PM they were still discussing a solution when the Turks started threatening economic sanctions. That's where it ended and the Turkish delegation was refused entry. Erdigan wins either way,of course. And I'm sure Wilders will pick up a few more votes, just as his poll numbers were dropping. Just what we needed :bleeding:
Wilders would have probably benefited more from an incendiary Turkish rally on Dutch soil.
I'm enjoying the hot Dutch police action against Turks in Rotterdam on the youtube. HOTT
That escalated quickly
I'm shocked that supporters of a strongman turn to violence when they don't get their will.
Quote from: celedhring on March 11, 2017, 12:15:33 PM
Wilders would have probably benefited more from an incendiary Turkish rally on Dutch soil.
More than the "guest" fifth column rioting against the police of their country or residence? :P
Wilders has benefitted from the whole fracas, that I will never put in doubt, but probably could've exploited the situation better if the Dutch government had been more agreeable to Turkish demands.
Glad that you have reconsidered your stance. :cheers:
Of course now the plane has been granted authorization to land in Metz, in Elsaß-Mosel, for more electoral propaganda. :frusty: Invited by the Lothringian (Lorraine) branch of the UETD party (Union of Turkish European Democrats in English) for Herr Dogan. :(
Can't expect more from the multiculturalist French left in power. Marine, rejoice!
Set over-reaction engines to Ludicrous!
QuoteTurkey bans Dutch ambassador as diplomatic crisis escalates
Deputy prime minister ratchets up rhetoric and prospect is raised of end to deal that has curbed migration from Turkey to Greece
Turkey has suspended high-level political contacts with the Netherlands and threatened to re-evaluate a key deal to halt the flow of migrants to Europe in a dramatic escalation of its diplomatic row with EU member states.
Numan Kurtulmuş, a deputy prime minister and chief government spokesman, said on Monday that the Dutch ambassador, who is on leave, would not be allowed to return in response to a ban on Turkish ministers speaking at rallies in the Netherlands.
Turkey would also close its airspace to Dutch diplomats, Kursulmuş said, adding: "There is a crisis and a very deep one. We didn't create this crisis or bring to this stage ... Those creating this crisis are responsible for fixing it."
The spokesman's remarks came hours after President Recep Tayyip Erdoğan defied pleas from Brussels to tone down his rhetoric, repeating accusations of European "nazism" and warning that his ministers would take their treatment by the Dutch to the European court of human rights.
Erdoğan also accused Germany's Angela Merkel of "supporting terrorists" and criticised her for backing the Dutch in the row over Turkish campaigning abroad before an April referendum on controversial plans to expand his powers.
"Mrs Merkel, why are you hiding terrorists in your country? ... Why are you not doing anything?" Erdoğan said in an interview with Turkish television. He added that the position adopted by the Dutch and a number of other EU states amounted to nazism. "We can call this neo-nazism. A new nazism tendency."
Merkel had earlier pledged her "full support and solidarity" to the Dutch, saying allegations made twice by Erdoğan this weekend that the Dutch government was acting like Nazis were "completely unacceptable".
The Turkish remarks followed a request on Monday by the EU's foreign policy chief, Federica Mogherini, and enlargement commissioner, Johannes Hahn, for Ankara to "refrain from excessive statements and actions".
It was "essential to avoid further escalation and find ways to calm down the situation", the two said in a joint statement. Jens Stoltenberg, Nato's secretary general, urged all concerned to "show mutual respect and be calm".
Turkey's minister for EU affairs, Ömer Çelik, said sanctions against the Netherlands were now likely. "We will surely have sanctions against the latest actions by the Netherlands. We will answer them with these," he said.
The Turkish justice minister, Bekir Bozdağ, said the country would "not allow anyone to play with the honour of the Turkish nation and Turkish state", while Nurettin Canikli, another deputy prime minister, described Europe as a "very sick man".
The threat to re-evaluate the deal the EU signed with Ankara in March 2016 that has successfully curbed migration from Turkey to Greece, then onward into the rest of the bloc, will be seen as particularly alarming.
Dutch police used dogs and water cannon on Sunday to disperse demonstrators after Turkey's family minister, Fatma Betül Sayan Kaya, was escorted out of the country and the foreign minister, Mevlüt Çavuşoğlu, denied permission to land. The ministers were due to address a rally for some of the 400,000 Turks living in the Netherlands, many of whom are able to vote in the 16 April referendum.
Daan Feddo Huisinga, the Dutch chargé d'affaires in Ankara, was summoned to the foreign ministry on Monday to receive formal protests over the "disproportionate, inhumane and humiliating" treatment of the protesters and the improper reception given to the ministers.
The Netherlands, Austria, Germany, Denmark and Switzerland – all of which have large Turkish immigrant communities – have cited security and other concerns as reasons not to allow Turkish officials to campaign in their countries. But with as many as 1.4 million Turkish voters in Germany alone, Erdoğan cannot afford to ignore the foreign electorate.
The standoff has further strained relations already frayed over human rights, while repeated indications from Erdoğan that he could personally try to address rallies in EU countries risk further inflaming the situation.
The row also looks likely to dim further Turkey's prospects of joining the EU, a process that has been under way for more than 50 years. "The formal end of accession negotiations with Turkey now looks inevitable," the German commentator Daniel Brössler wrote in the Süddeutsche Zeitung.
Austria's chancellor, Christian Kern, called on Monday for an EU-wide ban on Turkish rallies, saying it would take pressure off individual countries. But Merkel's chief of staff, Peter Altmaier, said that while accession talks could be halted, he had doubts as to whether the bloc should collectively decide on a rally ban.
Analysts said the Turkish president was using the crisis to show voters that his strong leadership was needed against a Europe he routinely presents as hostile.
Erdoğan is "looking for 'imagined' foreign enemies to boost his nationalist base in the runup to the referendum," said Soner Cagaptay, the director of the Turkish Research Programme at the Washington Institute.
Marc Pierini, the EU's former envoy to Turkey, said he saw no immediate solution to the crisis because "the referendum outcome in Turkey is very tight and the leadership will do everything to ramp up the nationalist narrative to garner more votes".
In the medium term, Pierini said: "One can hope the fever will subside. Yet bridges have been burned at a personal level: using a 'Nazi' narrative is extreme ... and will probably prevent any summit meeting between the EU and Turkey for a while." Erdoğan last week accused Germany of "Nazi practices" after Çavuşoğlu was banned from speaking at a rally in Hamburg.
The Turkish president twice made the same claim of the Dutch on Saturday, describing them as "Nazi remnants" and telling a rally in Istanbul: "I thought nazism was over, but I was wrong. In fact, nazism is alive in the west."
Mark Rutte, the Dutch prime minister, who faces a strong far-right challenge in this week's parliamentary elections and showed little desire to appease Turkey, demanded an apology for Erdoğan's "totally unacceptable" jibe.
Denmark has also postponed a planned visit next weekend by the Turkish prime minister, Binali Yıldırım, saying the meeting could not be seen as "separate from the current Turkish attacks on Holland".
European states are not entirely united: Çavuşoğlu himself called off a planned visit to Switzerland, despite the Swiss federal government saying there was "nothing to justify" cancelling it, after Zurich police expressed security concerns.
The French government also allowed Çavuşoğlu to address a rally in Metz on Sunday, but was strongly criticised by opposition politicians, who accused it of "flagrantly breaking with European solidarity" on the issue.
I find it adorable how they talk about how this conflict might hurt Turkey's chances of getting into the EU. Is somebody still seriously considering it a realistic thing?
Why would anyone want to join the EU? Looks like it's closing up shop anyway.
Turkey is, by treaty, guaranteed to get into the EU sometime between now and the end of time. My guess is that it will be after all of this Islamism business blows over.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/mar/14/turkish-sanctions-bizarre-as-netherlands-has-more-to-be-angry-about-dutch-pm
QuoteRecep Tayyip Erdoğan: 'We know Dutch from Srebrenica massacre'
The Turkish president, Recep Tayyip Erdoğan, has held the Netherlands responsible for the worst genocide in Europe since the second world war as the row over Turkish ministers addressing pro-Erdoğan rallies in the country deepened.
In a speech televised live on Tuesday, Erdoğan said: "We know the Netherlands and the Dutch from the Srebrenica massacre. We know how rotten their character is from their massacre of 8,000 Bosnians there."
The comments followed Turkey's suspension of diplomatic relations with the Netherlands on Monday and Erdoğan twice describing the Dutch government as Nazis on Saturday after his foreign minister and family affairs minister were prevented from attending rallies.
The Dutch prime minister, Mark Rutte, faces a general election on Wednesday in which the far-right leader, Geert Wilders, could win the largest number of seats. Rutte earlier on Tuesday played down the impact of Turkey's diplomatic sanctions, which he said were "not too bad" but were inappropriate as the Netherlands had more to be angry about.
However, after Erdoğan's speech Rutte told the Dutch TV channel RTL Nieuws that Erdoğan "continues to escalate the situation", adding the Srebrenica claim was "a repugnant historical falsehood".
"Erdoğan's tone is getting more and more hysterical, not only against The Netherlands, but also against Germany," he said. "We won't sink to that level and now we're being confronted with an idiotic fact ... It's totally unacceptable."
Turkey is holding a referendum on 16 April on extending Erdoğan's presidential powers where the votes of Turkish citizens in EU countries will be crucial.
Erdoğan's decision to use the Srebrenica genocide, for which a previous Dutch government resigned over its failure to prevent, as a further attack on the Netherlands showed that Ankara does not intend to back down from the dispute.
A lightly armed force of 110 Dutch troops failed to prevent a Bosnian Serb force commanded by Gen Ratko Mladić entering what had been designated a safe haven on 11 July 1995. Muslim men and boys were rounded up, executed and pushed into mass graves.
The former Bosnian Serb leader Radovan Karadžić was found guilty of genocide over the massacre by the UN tribunal in March 2016 and sentenced to 40 years in jail.
Erdoğan said in his speech he would not accept an apology from the Netherlands over the treatment of the ministers and suggested that further action could be taken.
He accused the German chancellor, Angela Merkel, of attacking Turkey the same way that Dutch police used dogs and water cannon to disperse protesters outside the Turkish consulate in Rotterdam. Erdoğan said Merkel was "no different from the Netherlands", and urged emigre Turks not to vote for "the government and the racists" in upcoming European elections.
Erdoğan had on Monday defied pleas from Brussels to tone down his rhetoric, repeating accusations of European "nazism" and saying his ministers would take their treatment by the Dutch to the European court of human rights.
The Turkish foreign ministry said in a statement on Tuesday that the EU's stance on Turkey was short-sighted and "carried no value" for Turkey. It said the EU had "ignored the violation of diplomatic conventions and the law".
The Netherlands, Austria, Germany, Denmark and Switzerland, all of which have large Turkish immigrant communities, have cited security and other concerns as reasons not to allow Turkish officials to campaign in their countries in favour of a referendum vote. But with as many as 1.4 million Turkish voters in Germany alone, Erdoğan cannot afford to ignore the foreign electorate.
Austria's chancellor, Christian Kern, called on Monday for an EU-wide ban on Turkish rallies, saying it would take pressure off individual countries. But Merkel's chief of staff, Peter Altmaier, said he had doubts as to whether the bloc should collectively decide on a rally ban.
Analysts said the Turkish president was using the crisis to show voters that his strong leadership was needed against a Europe he routinely presents as hostile.
Erdoğan was "looking for 'imagined' foreign enemies to boost his nationalist base in the run-up to the referendum", said Soner Çağaptay, the director of the Turkish research programme at the Washington Institute.
Marc Pierini, a former EU envoy to Turkey, said he saw no immediate solution to the crisis. "The referendum outcome in Turkey is very tight and the leadership will do everything to ramp up the nationalist narrative to garner more votes," he said.
The standoff has further strained relations already frayed over human rights, while repeated indications from Erdoğan that he could personally try to address rallies in EU countries risk further inflaming the situation.
The row looks likely to dim further Turkey's prospects of joining the EU, a process that has been under way for more than 50 years. "The formal end of accession negotiations with Turkey now looks inevitable," the German commentator Daniel Brössler wrote in Süddeutsche Zeitung.
Hey Syt, wanna place a wager on how long it takes before the Dutch lose their cool and fire back with something about the Armenian Genocide? :P
Quote from: DontSayBanana on March 15, 2017, 08:09:41 PM
Hey Syt, wanna place a wager on how long it takes before the Dutch lose their cool and fire back with something about the Armenian Genocide? :P
Turkish referendum is today, this thing has already run its course.
At least I hope so for Turkey's sake, what with the Netherlands being the #1 foreign investor in Turkey.
Quote from: Maladict on March 16, 2017, 04:11:28 AM
Quote from: DontSayBanana on March 15, 2017, 08:09:41 PM
Hey Syt, wanna place a wager on how long it takes before the Dutch lose their cool and fire back with something about the Armenian Genocide? :P
Turkish referendum is today, this thing has already run its course.
At least I hope so for Turkey's sake, what with the Netherlands being the #1 foreign investor in Turkey.
I think it's April 16th, no?
Quote from: Syt on March 16, 2017, 04:48:21 AM
I think it's April 16th, no?
You're right :blush:
More shenanigans, then.
More fun and games in the Balkans thanks to Herr Dogan!
QuoteBulgaria president lashes Turkey vote 'interference'
AFP on March 18, 2017, 8:30 am
Bulgaria president lashes Turkey vote interference
Bulgaria president lashes Turkey vote 'interference'
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Sofia (AFP) - Bulgarian President Rumen Radev on Friday accused neighbouring Turkey of "interference" in the country's March 26 general elections and warned his government would not accept it.
"Turkey is our neighbour, friend and partner and we insist on developing good neighbourly relations," Radev told public BNT television on Friday.
"But Turkey's interference in our elections is a fact, and this interference is inadmissible."
The statement came after over a week of escalating tensions between the two countries.
Bulgaria is angered at Turkey's open support for Dost, a party for the ethnic Turkish minority, which is running in the general elections for the first time.
The government in Sofia summoned Turkey's ambassador and recalled its own envoy from Turkey for consultations on Thursday.
Radev called for "more calm and de-escalation of emotions" but also warned Bulgaria was vigilant.
"Bulgaria's institutions and relevant services are actively working on eliminating all interference in our electoral process and our internal affairs," he said.
Separately, Bulgaria's intelligence service, DANS, on Friday said that one Turkish national had been expelled and two more banned from entering or residing in the country.
One of the men was inciting anti-Bulgarian feelings in regions with a mixed Bulgarian and Turkish population, it said.
The long-time leader of the main MRF Turkish minority party in Bulgaria, Ahmed Dogan, lashed out against President Recep Tayyip Erdogan on Friday, calling his April 16 referendum on expanding the president's powers "madness."
Bulgaria is home to a 700,000-strong ethnic Turkish minority, a legacy of the Ottoman empire.
An additional 200,000 ethnic Turks with Bulgarian passports, who left Bulgaria during the Communist era, reside in Turkey and a third of them regularly take part in Bulgaria's elections.
Relations between ethnic Bulgarians and Turks have been peaceful, but many in the Turkish minority have bitter memories of assimilation policies from the Communist era, when the authorities forced them to adopt Slavic names.
Tensions between the two neighbouring countries also come at a time of a wider row between Ankara and the European Union ahead of the Turkish referendum, with a number of countries preventing Turkish ministers from attending referendum rallies.
Turkey has blasted German and Dutch politicians as "Nazis" and threatened to scupper a 2016 deal with the EU to brake the flow of migrants entering the bloc.
The row could be a major problem for Bulgaria, the EU's poorest country, since it shares a 270-kilometre (165-mile) border with its southeastern neighbour, Radev said Friday.
"Escalation of the tensions along the EU-Turkey axis will rebound most powerfully on Bulgaria, because we are on the front line," he warned, urging the EU to find a solution that guarantees the security of all member-states.
https://au.news.yahoo.com/world/a/34691061/bulgaria-president-lashes-turkey-vote-interference/#page1 (https://au.news.yahoo.com/world/a/34691061/bulgaria-president-lashes-turkey-vote-interference/#page1)
https://www.nytimes.com/2017/03/30/world/europe/rex-tillerson-turkey.html
QuoteRex Tillerson's Praise for Turkey Is Met With a List of Complaints
ANKARA, Turkey — Secretary of State Rex W. Tillerson showered praise on Turkey's government on Thursday, despite what some international critics see as a slide toward authoritarianism, and in response he got an earful of grievances from Turkish officials.
Mr. Tillerson's visit to Ankara, the Turkish capital, was intended to reassure a NATO ally in the fight against the Islamic State and a regional bulwark against a resurgent Iran.
Turkish officials have repeatedly protested United States support for and reliance on Kurdish forces in the fight against Islamic State militants in Iraq and Syria at the same time the Turks are waging a campaign against Kurdish militants inside Turkey.
Mr. Tillerson was vague on Thursday when discussing American support for the Kurds, saying only that there were "difficult choices that have to be made."
Standing beside Mr. Tillerson on Thursday, Foreign Minister Mevlut Cavusoglu said that Turkey expected the United States to cut off aid to Kurdish forces fighting the Islamic State, and that American law enforcement should arrest a Turkish cleric living in Pennsylvania whom the government of President Recep Tayyip Erdogan has accused of orchestrating a coup attempt last July. "We are expecting better cooperation," Mr. Cavusoglu said.
He accused the former United States attorney for the Southern District of New York, Preet Bharara, who was recently fired by the Trump administration, of being a pawn of anti-Turkish forces, and he said a federal investigation into businessmen with ties to Mr. Erdogan was "political." Prosecutors in New York are pursuing a case against Reza Zarrab, a Turkish gold trader accused of violating sanctions on Iran. Mr. Bharara, asked for comment on Mr. Cavusoglu's criticism, said in a statement, "I am not going to comment on false and silly political propaganda by a foreign official regarding a case that I no longer oversee."
At the news conference in Turkey on Thursday, Mr. Cavusoglu also questioned Mr. Tillerson's truthfulness when the secretary of state said that a phone call made by someone in the United States Consulate to a coup plotter days after the failed attempt — a phone record was leaked to the Turkish news media just hours before Mr. Tillerson's arrival in Turkey — had been intended solely to inform the man that his request for a visa had been denied.
Turkish news media has suggested that the call showed collusion between American officials and people the Turkish government accuses of trying to oust Mr. Erdogan. "Of course we want to believe this explanation," Mr. Cavusoglu said. "And we don't want to look for anything behind that. But of course we'd like to see the details in concrete terms."
Although Mr. Tillerson said he would convey Turkey's concerns to the White House for further consultation, United States officials have said that the Trump administration intends to continue support for Kurdish forces and that there are no plans to arrest or extradite the cleric in Pennsylvania, Fethullah Gulen.
Mr. Tillerson has said that the Trump administration's top priority in the Middle East is the defeat of the Islamic State, and he steered clear of any mention of mass arrests, a crackdown on the news media and a widespread purge undertaken by the Turkish government after the coup attempt. Nor did he speak about a referendum scheduled for next month that could bestow nearly dictatorial powers on Mr. Erdogan.
Before arriving in Turkey, Mr. Tillerson decided to lift all human rights conditions on a major sale of F-16 fighter jets and other arms to Bahrain in an effort to bolster Sunni Arab states in the Middle East and find new ways to confront Iran. Similarly, he is expected to reverse a decision to ban sales of smart bombs to Saudi Arabia because of the kingdom's involvement in the war in Yemen.
Those decisions come as indications are mounting that the United States military is deepening its involvement in a string of complex wars in the Middle East that lack clear endgames and where there are alarming civilian casualties. These decisions have been welcomed by some Sunni Arab governments, which bristled at the Obama administration's skepticism of their tactics, motives and records on human rights.
And Turkey abolished their last remaining republican division of powers and introduced a dictatorship with a referendum yesterday that the government supposedly won, but that international observers see very critical with regards to fairness.
This thread needs a new name. :(
Quote from: Zanza on April 17, 2017, 02:00:55 AM
And Turkey abolished their last remaining republican division of powers and introduced a dictatorship with a referendum yesterday that the government supposedly won, but that international observers see very critical with regards to fairness.
can we now deport the turks that voted yes in this referendum? They should get the opportunity to enjoy the fruits of the vote
Yeah, they should really ask themselves why they are still here. Deportation is of course over the top, but I also do not think we should just accept proto-fascists in our midth.
Quote from: Zanza on April 17, 2017, 03:08:45 AM
Yeah, they should really ask themselves why they are still here. Deportation is of course over the top, but I also do not think we should just accept proto-fascists in our midth.
I mean are they doing anything proto-fascist in your country? Those are the ones to do something about. Simply voting in a way you dislike... :shutup:
There are some that spread distrust and smother anti-Erdogan voices in the Turkish community either through social pressure or outright collaboration with the Turkish government to suppress opposition. Those we should actively stand against to make sure that the Turks living here can actually participate in our liberal freedom of speech. In some cases they go as far as espionage or so and then we should use the available laws to prosecute them and also deport them (if they don't have a German passport). I would also limit Turkish government-sponsored activism in Germany, especially Ditib seems suspect and I don't see why we should accept organizations like that here.
But what I mainly meant with "not accepting" is more on an information, education and respect level. There is a surprising number of young Turks (no matter their actual passport) that were in favor of the referendum. They feel excluded from our society, not respected as Turks and lack information about the political situation in Turkey and the consequences of this referendum. We should try to win them over to our own liberal view and not leave them for Erdogan to entice with his authoritarian nationalism. That's something that your society has so far not done at all or at least too little. Another failure of integration. Lamenting their views and suggesting illegal activities like deportation won't help. We need to try to improve the situation with the means that we actually have.
But what we certainly shouldn't do is to just ignore or accept the fact that many people in our country just voted for the abolishment of one of our core values, even it was in a third country.
The opposition doesn't have any parliamentarian or media means to make itself heard anymore and does not accept the referendum result (unlike earlier elections) as there are serious claims of voter fraud for such a close referendum. As Erdogan will suppress all legal means of opposition to his rule, some of his opponents will turn to violence. Not just in the Kurdish areas, but elsewhere as well. And their current economic weakness won't be cured by the new dictatorship either, so Erdogan's promise of more stability and security will go unfulfilled. Let's see if the Turks will be cowed like the Russians under Putin are or whether there will be more active opposition to him even after this.
Quote from: Zanza on April 17, 2017, 04:05:36 AMBut what I mainly meant with "not accepting" is more on an information, education and respect level. There is a surprising number of young Turks (no matter their actual passport) that were in favor of the referendum. They feel excluded from our society, not respected as Turks and lack information about the political situation in Turkey and the consequences of this referendum. We should try to win them over to our own liberal view and not leave them for Erdogan to entice with his authoritarian nationalism. That's something that your society has so far not done at all or at least too little. Another failure of integration. Lamenting their views and suggesting illegal activities like deportation won't help. We need to try to improve the situation with the means that we actually have.
That's why you and your people are headed for the dustbin of history. You simply cannot address the Islamist curse with these liberal soft-power approaches. They are a brute people who understand and respect brute force, anything else they ignore.
As for Turkey: Muslims don't like democracy because it gives too many freedoms and power to secular Muslims or (worse) non-Muslims, not to mention women. This isn't new at all, Turkey has only been kept "free" by a military willing to step in and stop this from time to time, but we've finally gotten a leader there who outmaneuvered the military once Turkey had embraced liberal democracy to the point military options for suppressing Islamism were no longer seen as acceptable.
There's really not a lot more to talk about with it, the focus should be on making it so we don't have Muslims in Western society.
Quote from: OttoVonBismarck on April 17, 2017, 10:43:10 AM
Quote from: Zanza on April 17, 2017, 04:05:36 AMBut what I mainly meant with "not accepting" is more on an information, education and respect level. There is a surprising number of young Turks (no matter their actual passport) that were in favor of the referendum. They feel excluded from our society, not respected as Turks and lack information about the political situation in Turkey and the consequences of this referendum. We should try to win them over to our own liberal view and not leave them for Erdogan to entice with his authoritarian nationalism. That's something that your society has so far not done at all or at least too little. Another failure of integration. Lamenting their views and suggesting illegal activities like deportation won't help. We need to try to improve the situation with the means that we actually have.
That's why you and your people are headed for the dustbin of history. You simply cannot address the Islamist curse with these liberal soft-power approaches. They are a brute people who understand and respect brute force, anything else they ignore.
Don't worry Otto. The German far right is on the rise.
Quote from: OttoVonBismarck on April 17, 2017, 10:44:22 AM
As for Turkey: Muslims don't like democracy because it gives too many freedoms and power to secular Muslims or (worse) non-Muslims, not to mention women. This isn't new at all, Turkey has only been kept "free" by a military willing to step in and stop this from time to time, but we've finally gotten a leader there who outmaneuvered the military once Turkey had embraced liberal democracy to the point military options for suppressing Islamism were no longer seen as acceptable.
There's really not a lot more to talk about with it, the focus should be on making it so we don't have Muslims in Western society.
True, but Islam isn't the only problem we have. Christians don't like democracy because it gives too many freedoms and power to secular Christians or (worse) non-Christians, not to mention women. This isn't new at all, The West has only been kept "free" by a court system willing to step in and stop this from time to time, but we've finally gotten a leader there who outmaneuvered the judiciary once the West had embraced liberal democracy to the point legal options for suppressing Christian fundamentalism were no longer seen as acceptable.
There's really not a lot more to talk about with it, the focus should be on making it so we don't have Christians in Western society.
Quote from: grumbler on April 17, 2017, 11:04:49 AM
Quote from: OttoVonBismarck on April 17, 2017, 10:44:22 AM
As for Turkey: Muslims don't like democracy because it gives too many freedoms and power to secular Muslims or (worse) non-Muslims, not to mention women. This isn't new at all, Turkey has only been kept "free" by a military willing to step in and stop this from time to time, but we've finally gotten a leader there who outmaneuvered the military once Turkey had embraced liberal democracy to the point military options for suppressing Islamism were no longer seen as acceptable.
There's really not a lot more to talk about with it, the focus should be on making it so we don't have Muslims in Western society.
True, but Islam isn't the only problem we have. Christians don't like democracy because it gives too many freedoms and power to secular Christians or (worse) non-Christians, not to mention women. This isn't new at all, The West has only been kept "free" by a court system willing to step in and stop this from time to time, but we've finally gotten a leader there who outmaneuvered the judiciary once the West had embraced liberal democracy to the point legal options for suppressing Christian fundamentalism were no longer seen as acceptable.
There's really not a lot more to talk about with it, the focus should be on making it so we don't have Christians in Western society.
So we rally around Le Pen?
Quote from: grumbler on April 17, 2017, 11:04:49 AMTrue, but Islam isn't the only problem we have. Christians don't like democracy because it gives too many freedoms and power to secular Christians or (worse) non-Christians, not to mention women. This isn't new at all, The West has only been kept "free" by a court system willing to step in and stop this from time to time, but we've finally gotten a leader there who outmaneuvered the judiciary once the West had embraced liberal democracy to the point legal options for suppressing Christian fundamentalism were no longer seen as acceptable.
There's really not a lot more to talk about with it, the focus should be on making it so we don't have Christians in Western society.
When someone's Autism spectrum disorder flares up and creates a post like this, I usually resist the temptation to respond as I would have in my youth, but I'll (regretfully) wade into this one. There are obviously parallels between Christians and their behavior in Western society and Muslims and their behavior in Middle Eastern societies vis-a-vis religion's role in the state and public life. But the differences are many-fold. Particularly for example a court system is fundamentally different as a check against religiosity in public life versus the military, because for courts to function for over 200 years (as they have in the United States, to varying degrees) to check religious encroachments in government, suggests a base level of societal legitimacy and acceptance of the law and the court system, and the idea of secularism. The courts would no more last than civilian government if they lacked said legitimacy over a prolonged period of time. The fact that Turkey has had to resort to the military suggests that it has a long, persistent lack of institutional respect for democratic norms that conflict with Muslim teachings.
I'm not a theologian, but I think there are both structural reasons within Islam and cultural reasons throughout the Middle East that make acceptance of secular government far less a cultural norm in those societies. It's really telling that America's people 240 years ago were less desirous of a religious state than Turkey's people in 2017. Despite some odd hiccups in conflicting directions, the United States has only become more secular with time, also (for example prior to incorporation of the first amendment, many states had state churches, usually Episcopalian.)
Quote from: garbon on April 17, 2017, 11:16:36 AMSo we rally around Le Pen?
The problem about rallying around Le Pen, Trump, or similar figures is they're mostly wrong on everything and terrible but they're right on Islam. The very fact that people who are so terrible and wrong on virtually everything continue to get support is at least partially because society recognizes the threat to it from Muslims better than the liberal elite. I'm certainly not ascribing all of right wing populism to the Islamic threat, but I think it explains much of it in Europe. In America I think the Islamic threat is more theoretical and thus it was only one of a collection of minority views that propelled him to the Presidency. But given his small margin of victory he likely isn't President without it.
The answer then is that liberal democracy needs to recognize Islamism is an existential threat, the same way we recognized Communism and Fascism were, and respond accordingly.
Well we had this thing called the 'Wars of Religion' in the 16th and 17th centuries that were pretty influential on how Christians relate to their governments. Pretty sure Grumbler has heard of them so I am not sure why he is acting like that whole business never occured.
Quote from: OttoVonBismarck on April 17, 2017, 11:57:29 AM
The answer then is that liberal democracy needs to recognize Islamism is an existential threat, the same way we recognized Communism and Fascism were, and respond accordingly.
Well we tolerated the existence of Communists and Fascists in our country for the most part didn't we? Besides there is something fundamentally different between those things and something like a religion I think. Or at least a major and very old world religion like Islam.
I guess I don't really see how Islam is really some sort of existential threat. The draw of Islam is tradition and culture, hardly something that is going to spread and be seductive to people not from those cultures or outside of those traditions. I don't see tons of people flocking to sign up to Islam anymore than I see tons of people flocking to sign up to become Hindus. Whereas Fascism and Communism were designed to seduce people from Western Society.
Quote from: Valmy on April 17, 2017, 12:00:32 PM
Quote from: OttoVonBismarck on April 17, 2017, 11:57:29 AM
The answer then is that liberal democracy needs to recognize Islamism is an existential threat, the same way we recognized Communism and Fascism were, and respond accordingly.
Well we tolerated the existence of Communists and Fascists in our country for the most part didn't we? Besides there is something fundamentally different between those things and something like a religion I think. Or at least a major and very old world religion like Islam.
I mean not really. We prohibited immigration of anyone who was a Nazi party member after WWII, just as one example, or a Communist. While we certainly didn't criminalize fascism and communism (would have been difficult to do with our constitution) we leaned on them as heavily as government can lean on anything without outright breaking the law, and sometimes a little beyond, too.
That's in terms of hard power approaches. We also had a tremendous "soft power" response in which the vast majority of American society absolutely rejected the presence of these people. You risked getting beat up if you were openly a Nazi or Communist in much of America, if not worse. The West has largely accepted Islamists with open arms, and they've now grown to such large numbers in parts of Europe that the time for societal disapproval is long past, and more rigorous measures are required.
I do think the typical liberal nu-male struggles with this because any dislike of brown people and their beliefs is tantamount with evil behavior (and for some reason they associate the white races like Iranians as a sort of brown person by proxy or something.) But to give such people a little bit of a ledge--Islamism isn't the same as "Islam." I think if you observe most of the world you'll note a marked difference in MENA Muslims and the prevalence of political Islamism versus the other areas where Islam exists in large numbers. Malaysia/Indonesia/India are chief examples that spring to mind. Now, none are great countries structurally, but I'd argue none exhibit the sort of politically mainstream Islamism that we see in the MENA region. There are certainly extremists in those countries who do, but at least for now they are still rightfully called "extremists", because they represent the extreme in those countries. In a place like Saudi Arabia or Egypt the extremists are the ones who don't think you should cut people's heads off for sorcery, or who think you should tolerate the existence of Coptic Egyptians and etc. Egypt is a good case study (and even to a degree Saudi Arabia), only a strong rule can keep the worst desires of these Islamist populations in check. Saudi Arabia may
seem a weird country to suggest this about, but I've always maintained that as Islamist as the Kingdom is, its people are even more so--they are truly the craziest Islamists in the world, because as regressive as Saudi society is their people wish it were more regressive and many view the Saud family as pawns of the cosmopolitan West who keep the country from being as Muslim as it should be.
Quote from: Valmy on April 17, 2017, 12:00:32 PMI guess I don't really see how Islam is really some sort of existential threat. The draw of Islam is tradition and culture, hardly something that is going to spread and be seductive to people not from those cultures or outside of those traditions. I don't see tons of people flocking to sign up to Islam anymore than I see tons of people flocking to sign up to become Hindus. Whereas Fascism and Communism were designed to seduce people from Western Society.
Islam isn't spreading by evangelizing, it's spreading by fucking. Muslims are a demographic threat to Europe. I agree they aren't an existential threat to the United States, but a Muslim Europe in 100 years is no great future for America, either.
And you're also conflating Islam and Islamism. Islamism is the belief that government must basically be structure on Islamic principles, and rights and freedoms of people who might want to leave the religion or who already practice another religion should be significantly curtailed.
I don't for what it's worth, think these are "evil" people, just ignorant ones. I agree a lot of it is tradition/cultural values, but those traditions and cultural values are toxic and terrible. This isn't like the ceremonial Catholicism of the sort of American Catholic who vaguely dislikes promiscuity and attends Church for high holidays, it's a lot more deep rooted in these people because they are so (intentionally) isolated from secular thought.
Islamism if you want to compare it to Christianity would be more like the medieval views that the laws of God ought to be directly reflected by the laws of man, even to the extent of making heresy a crime.
Even at that though, I don't think it really aligns directly. There has always been, from what I can tell, a much clearer divide between the intellectual pursuits of governance and theology in Christianity, even at the worst of times, so the Inquisition, or the height of the political power of the Catholic Church.
The bible, in general, is not really useful as a guide to structuring political or even legal society. Maybe that comes from its Judeo background? Or from the classic "Give unto Caesar..." bit?
In any case, the view that Islam is not just a religion, but it also a blueprint for how to organize political society as well is a much more mainstream view in Islam, although of course not universal.
But the concept of a "Caliphate" or even an Iranian style theocracy is a powerful force in the Islamic world. The political ideology that says that Islam should be the basis for law and poltical power is serious and as much a direct threat to Western liberal values as Communism or Fascism ever was. IMO, probably much more of a threat, actually.
Not in an existential sense in the medium term, in that I don't think it is likely that they can succeed in getting any real amount of power in places like the US. But I do think they are a short term threat in places that have weak institutions now. I could certainly see more Middle Easter countries becoming some flavor of Iran, for example, or pre-9/11 Afghanistan.
I think they are long-short, short-medium term threat in otherwise democratic nations that have large Muslim majorities already, if more Muslims become convinced that Islamism is a valid political choice, and younger generations are successfully radicalized.
I think Islamism is a serious middle term threat in parts of Europe that are seeing a lot of immigration combined with low birth rates and (relatively) weak liberal institutions.
Ok well here is the thing though: most of these theological Islamic states are shitholes with little redeemable about them. I have a hard time seeing people growing up in Germany, even the children and grandchildren of Muslims immigrants, being convinced that that is a good idea in mass numbers.
QuoteI think Islamism is a serious middle term threat in parts of Europe that are seeing a lot of immigration combined with low birth rates and (relatively) weak liberal institutions.
That's unlikely.
Even muslims becoming a majority isn't going to happen. That they would be devout and seek to create an Islamic government is a further condition that has to be met and won't be.
Quote from: Valmy on April 17, 2017, 12:54:59 PM
Ok well here is the thing though: most of these theological Islamic states are shitholes with little redeemable about them. I have a hard time seeing people growing up in Germany, even the children and grandchildren of Muslims immigrants, being convinced that that is a good idea in mass numbers.
That is because you cannot get out of your own value system.
There is plenty that is "redeemable" about them. If you grow up in them, your odds of going to heaven are radically greater because you and your family won't be exposed to sin and heresy.
And I wasn't really aware that Iran was all that much of a shithole anyway.
Well it is. But ironically the places where it isn't hate the regime while the places where it is a shithole support the regime.
Quote from: Valmy on April 17, 2017, 01:20:51 PM
Well it is. But ironically the places where it isn't hate the regime while the places where it is a shithole support the regime.
Which should prove to you that "this is s shitty way to live" is apparently not much of a negative to the devout.
It makes perfect sense if you accept the premise of their religion. Life on earth isn't meant to be awesome, and if you have a theocratic government, you should not even expect them to try to optimize the quality of your life on earth. Having a great life on earth isn't the fucking point, and in fact may actually work against the actual purpose of human existence.
Again, you can't evaluate this stuff from a western, liberal value system where in fact quality of life, liberty, equality, etc., etc. are the very point of our social and political structures, at least theoretically.
It is why Islamism is in fact an existential threat to Western liberal values. Like Communism, it isn't just another way of trying to achieve the same ends. It is a set of different ends altogether.
Quote from: Valmy on April 17, 2017, 12:54:59 PM
Ok well here is the thing though: most of these theological Islamic states are shitholes with little redeemable about them. I have a hard time seeing people growing up in Germany, even the children and grandchildren of Muslims immigrants, being convinced that that is a good idea in mass numbers.
research by Ruud Koopmans is interesting in regards to this.
(https://www.wzb.eu/en/press-release/islamic-fundamentalism-is-widely-spread)
But you don't need majorities, you only need a significant amount of hardliners and salami-tactics (i.e.: constantly demand small things until public space, and society at large, becomes sufficiently islamised).
Quote from: Valmy on April 17, 2017, 12:54:59 PM
Ok well here is the thing though: most of these theological Islamic states are shitholes with little redeemable about them. I have a hard time seeing people growing up in Germany, even the children and grandchildren of Muslims immigrants, being convinced that that is a good idea in mass numbers.
One possible dynamic in this:
When you emigrate, you concept of your country of origin frequently stays frozen in time at the time you left. Witness, f. ex., the Irish-American understanding of Ireland compared to that of the actual Irish. I wouldn't be surprised if a lot of the Turkish expat pro-dictatorship vote came out of re-fighting the political battles in Turkey of the 70s and 80s and 90s rather than a deep understanding of the current situation.
Quote from: Jacob on April 17, 2017, 01:39:17 PM
Quote from: Valmy on April 17, 2017, 12:54:59 PM
Ok well here is the thing though: most of these theological Islamic states are shitholes with little redeemable about them. I have a hard time seeing people growing up in Germany, even the children and grandchildren of Muslims immigrants, being convinced that that is a good idea in mass numbers.
One possible dynamic in this:
When you emigrate, you concept of your country of origin frequently stays frozen in time at the time you left. Witness, f. ex., the Irish-American understanding of Ireland compared to that of the actual Irish. I wouldn't be surprised if a lot of the Turkish expat pro-dictatorship vote came out of re-fighting the political battles in Turkey of the 70s and 80s and 90s rather than a deep understanding of the current situation.
These people do have access to modern telecommunications. The 90s are long past and satellite tv is ubiquitous. I'd go as far as saying that a significant group of these people is better informed about what's happening in their country-of-origin than about the country they're living in.
Quote from: Crazy_Ivan80 on April 17, 2017, 01:47:23 PM
These people do have access to modern telecommunications. The 90s are long past and satellite tv is ubiquitous. I'd go as far as saying that a significant group of these people is better informed about what's happening in their country-of-origin than about the country they're living in.
Sure.
That doesn't change anything though.
There's huge number of Irish-Americans (and Irish-Canadians) who still view Ireland through the IRA-vs-the-UK and/or Orange-vs-Green-sectarianism, the existence of modern telecommunications notwithstanding.
My concept of Denmark is still strongly coloured by the the way things were in the late 80s early 90s when I left.
It's a common feature of the emigrant/ ex-pat experience in my observation. The culture and outlook of emigrants regarding their land of origin tends to freeze in time at the point of departure. Seems to me it's a psychological thing that has little to do with the availability of communication.
Quote from: Valmy on April 17, 2017, 12:54:59 PM
Ok well here is the thing though: most of these theological Islamic states are shitholes with little redeemable about them. I have a hard time seeing people growing up in Germany, even the children and grandchildren of Muslims immigrants, being convinced that that is a good idea in mass numbers.
63 % of the Turkish voters in Germany voted for Herr Dogan in the last referendum. If that's not a mass number, I don't know what this is.
65 % in France, cocorico! :lol:
Quote from: Duque de Bragança on April 17, 2017, 01:55:52 PM
Quote from: Valmy on April 17, 2017, 12:54:59 PM
Ok well here is the thing though: most of these theological Islamic states are shitholes with little redeemable about them. I have a hard time seeing people growing up in Germany, even the children and grandchildren of Muslims immigrants, being convinced that that is a good idea in mass numbers.
63 % of the Turkish voters in Germany voted for Herr Dogan's in the last referendum. If that's not a mass number, I don't know what this is.
65 % in France, cocorico! :lol:
I have to admit that does make it hard to have much sympathy for them. Granted my perspective is a tad colored from the fact that many of my personal friends are Gulenists.
Quote from: Duque de Bragança on April 17, 2017, 01:55:52 PM
Quote from: Valmy on April 17, 2017, 12:54:59 PM
Ok well here is the thing though: most of these theological Islamic states are shitholes with little redeemable about them. I have a hard time seeing people growing up in Germany, even the children and grandchildren of Muslims immigrants, being convinced that that is a good idea in mass numbers.
63 % of the Turkish voters in Germany voted for Herr Dogan's in the last referendum. If that's not a mass number, I don't know what this is.
65 % in France, cocorico! :lol:
Yeah, it's not a pretty picture.
Do note, of course, that there was only about 50% participation (in Germany) and of the 3.5M Turks living in Germany, about ~1.5M have Turkish citizenship (and so can vote). So we're talking about 63% of 50% of 1.5M, so about 470,000 votes in favour out of the 3.5M Turks in Germany.
Still way too many, of course, and there's nothing that indicates whether the non-participating eligible voters or the non-eligible Turks share the sentiment in similar proportions or not.
Quote from: Valmy on April 17, 2017, 02:00:01 PMI have to admit that does make it hard to have much sympathy for them. Granted my perspective is a tad colored from the fact that many of my personal friends are Gulenists.
Sympathy for whom, in what context?
The 3.5 million Turks in Germany, or the 470,000 of them who voted for increasing Erdogan's power?
Presumably there are Gulenists in Germany as well.
Quote from: Jacob on April 17, 2017, 02:05:59 PM
Quote from: Valmy on April 17, 2017, 02:00:01 PMI have to admit that does make it hard to have much sympathy for them. Granted my perspective is a tad colored from the fact that many of my personal friends are Gulenists.
Sympathy for whom, in what context?
The 3.5 million Turks in Germany, or the 470,000 of them who voted for increasing Erdogan's power?
Presumably there are Gulenists in Germany as well.
Sympathy for those who would live in a liberal nation but vote for dictatorship and tyranny in another country. How contemptible can you be?
Quote from: Jacob on April 17, 2017, 02:04:09 PM
Quote from: Duque de Bragança on April 17, 2017, 01:55:52 PM
Quote from: Valmy on April 17, 2017, 12:54:59 PM
Ok well here is the thing though: most of these theological Islamic states are shitholes with little redeemable about them. I have a hard time seeing people growing up in Germany, even the children and grandchildren of Muslims immigrants, being convinced that that is a good idea in mass numbers.
63 % of the Turkish voters in Germany voted for Herr Dogan's in the last referendum. If that's not a mass number, I don't know what this is.
65 % in France, cocorico! :lol:
Yeah, it's not a pretty picture.
Do note, of course, that there was only about 50% participation (in Germany) and of the 3.5M Turks living in Germany, about ~1.5M have Turkish citizenship (and so can vote). So we're talking about 63% of 50% of 1.5M, so about 470,000 votes in favour out of the 3.5M Turks in Germany.
Still way too many, of course, and there's nothing that indicates whether the non-participating eligible voters or the non-eligible Turks share the sentiment in similar proportions or not.
It would be interesting to see how "Mountain Turks" vote too. :P
I would say non registered people are more driven by apathy than anti-Erdogan sentiment. Plus Turkish authorities have been flexible enough to allow some double (not dual) citizenship voters.
I am not optimistic though, using the Gezi park troubles, Syt mentioned there were 10 times more Turks demonstrating in favor of Erdogan than against. Granted, those are the most motivated, in both cases but still...
Why would Erdogan supporters be MORE motivated? Wouldn't those forced out of the country by Erdogan be more motivated? I mean now they will have a hard time even visiting.
Quote from: Jacob on April 17, 2017, 01:54:48 PM
It's a common feature of the emigrant/ ex-pat experience in my observation. The culture and outlook of emigrants regarding their land of origin tends to freeze in time at the point of departure. Seems to me it's a psychological thing that has little to do with the availability of communication.
I disagree politically with Crazy Ivan on many things, but there is something to his argument. Sure, the old Italians who lived in the neighborhood where I grew up with were still somehow watching the RAI - and Irish expats may indeed still politically self-identify with the political conflict that structured their youth. But Turkey is a dynamic producer of media of all kinds, from news to drama - and Erdogan has silenced media opposition and replaced it with propaganda that self-presents as true news. It is now much easier to keep in touch with the country of one's birth, and its subsequent evolution. The conservatism of old Italians was frozen in the past: that of current immigrants can much more easily evolve with the time. Worse: immigrants are also being
asked to remain politically active. Sure: this situation happened before - in times of mass 19th c. immigration, and these communities eventually, and contentiously, assimilated. Books circulated, and newspaper were printed in a variety of languages in the US, Canada, or France. But newspaper reached few people then, and slowly at that; and 19th century states were both much less delicate in handling "troublemakers", but had also much less police power at their command.
I don't have any good answer, but I fear that the reflex of turning to the past as evidence that things are happening as they always did, and turned out fine in the end, may not help us confront contemporary challenges. .
Quote from: Valmy on April 17, 2017, 02:18:26 PM
Why would Erdogan supporters be MORE motivated? Wouldn't those forced out of the country by Erdogan be more motivated? I mean now they will have a hard time even visiting.
The big purge had not started yet in 2013, year of the Gezi park troubles. Of course, people forced out by the poverty in hinterland Turkey and living in much more advanced societies should not be so pro-Erdogan, if they were rational but identity politics shun that.
Quote from: Valmy on April 17, 2017, 02:18:26 PM
Why would Erdogan supporters be MORE motivated? Wouldn't those forced out of the country by Erdogan be more motivated? I mean now they will have a hard time even visiting.
I have no idea how this particular process worked, but Erdogan may have facilitated participation of sympathetic voters vs. others.
Quote from: Oexmelin on April 17, 2017, 02:21:06 PM
I disagree politically with Crazy Ivan on many things, but there is something to his argument. Sure, the old Italians who lived in the neighborhood where I grew up with were still somehow watching the RAI - and Irish expats may indeed still politically self-identify with the political conflict that structured their youth. But Turkey is a dynamic producer of media of all kinds, from news to drama - and Erdogan has silenced media opposition and replaced it with propaganda that self-presents as true news. It is now much easier to keep in touch with the country of one's birth, and its subsequent evolution. The conservatism of old Italians was frozen in the past: that of current immigrants can much more easily evolve with the time. Worse: immigrants are also being asked to remain politically active. Sure: this situation happened before - in times of mass 19th c. immigration, and these communities eventually, and contentiously, assimilated. Books circulated, and newspaper were printed in a variety of languages in the US, Canada, or France. But newspaper reached few people then, and slowly at that; and 19th century states were both much less delicate in handling "troublemakers", but had also much less police power at their command.
I don't have any good answer, but I fear that the reflex of turning to the past as evidence that things are happening as they always did, and turned out fine in the end, may not help us confront contemporary challenges. .
In no way am I suggesting that "things turned out fine in the end", nor am I suggesting that this pattern that I've observed is particularly constructive. It is simply a heuristic that I've observed to hold fairly well and it may be part of an explanation for the apparent conundrum of "people who benefit from a liberal state voting to curtail liberal rights in the country of origin."
Thinking on it a bit further as I write this reply a couple of things occur to me:
1) Perhaps the people voting to curtail the liberal foundation of the Turkish state do not feel they benefit from the German, Dutch and other liberal states where they reside, in spite of our general agreement that they in fact do benefit. It is a pretty common feature of reactionaries (see the religious right in the US f. ex.) to not value the benefits of liberal rights as they apply to themselves - because they feel it's only natural that they should have them and more simply by virtue of their inherent qualities and not due to some liberal principle, while those same rights are over-generous to other groups.
2) You suggest, along with CrazyIvan, that modern communication technology (not to mention the ease of travel) should put the reactionary voters in a better position to compare and contrast the two countries, and that makes their reactionary votes more inexplicable somehow. I think recent history is replete with examples of more information doing little shift behaviour and values in a liberal direction. Rather it seems that while there is more information available, people tend to consume and agree with information that already fits their preconceptions. If our hypothetical slightly Conservative Turks in Germany and the Netherlands use the ease of communication to absorb reactionary propaganda originating from Erdogin operatives and independent nationalist groups who want a "Strong Turkey" (or whatever), then the ease of getting information works against the liberal perspective. Seems good solid agitprop is king these days.
Quote from: Valmy on April 17, 2017, 02:18:26 PM
Why would Erdogan supporters be MORE motivated? Wouldn't those forced out of the country by Erdogan be more motivated? I mean now they will have a hard time even visiting.
A lot of the original Turkish immigrants to Europe (in the 60s and 70s) were deliberately recruited from backwards rural areas. The succeeding waves of immigration, as is often the case, plugged into the now established network. Most Turks in the EU are not refugees of any sort, as I understand it, but people in search of a better quality of life and their descendants.
Quote from: jimmy olsen on April 17, 2017, 02:04:55 AM
This thread needs a new name. :(
I agree.
What about "Looking up at Erdogan sole" ?
Quote from: Jacob on April 17, 2017, 04:11:47 PM
2) You suggest, along with CrazyIvan, that modern communication technology (not to mention the ease of travel) should put the reactionary voters in a better position to compare and contrast the two countries, and that makes their reactionary votes more inexplicable somehow. I think recent history is replete with examples of more information doing little shift behaviour and values in a liberal direction. Rather it seems that while there is more information available, people tend to consume and agree with information that already fits their preconceptions. If our hypothetical slightly Conservative Turks in Germany and the Netherlands use the ease of communication to absorb reactionary propaganda originating from Erdogin operatives and independent nationalist groups who want a "Strong Turkey" (or whatever), then the ease of getting information works against the liberal perspective. Seems good solid agitprop is king these days.
Apologies - I did not mean to say that their reactionary vote was inexplicable (which, politically, is a way to paint them as dangerous). On the contrary, I think there are many ways to explain their vote. What I meant to suggest is that the move to normalize the immigrant experience - which has the laudable goal of making immigrants of today similar to those of the past - often glosses over the changes in communication, connection, and feeling of belonging that happened in the last hundred years. In short, if the "liberal perspective" is just to wait until assimilation "happens", I fear it may not be sufficient to address the political challenges of our times.
Quote from: OttoVonBismarck on April 17, 2017, 11:55:26 AM
When someone's Autism spectrum disorder flares up and creates a post like this, I usually resist the temptation to respond as I would have in my youth, but I'll (regretfully) wade into this one. There are obviously parallels between Christians and their behavior in Western society and Muslims and their behavior in Middle Eastern societies vis-a-vis religion's role in the state and public life. But the differences are many-fold. Particularly for example a court system is fundamentally different as a check against religiosity in public life versus the military, because for courts to function for over 200 years (as they have in the United States, to varying degrees) to check religious encroachments in government, suggests a base level of societal legitimacy and acceptance of the law and the court system, and the idea of secularism. The courts would no more last than civilian government if they lacked said legitimacy over a prolonged period of time. The fact that Turkey has had to resort to the military suggests that it has a long, persistent lack of institutional respect for democratic norms that conflict with Muslim teachings.
I'm not a theologian, but I think there are both structural reasons within Islam and cultural reasons throughout the Middle East that make acceptance of secular government far less a cultural norm in those societies. It's really telling that America's people 240 years ago were less desirous of a religious state than Turkey's people in 2017. Despite some odd hiccups in conflicting directions, the United States has only become more secular with time, also (for example prior to incorporation of the first amendment, many states had state churches, usually Episcopalian.)
When someone's Nazi spectrum disorder flares up and creates posts that have obviously just been salvaged from an antisemitic screed by changing every appearance of "Jew" to "Muslim," mockery will ensue. You clearly don't know fuck-all about Islam, and seem to think that the Middle East is as fucked up as it is because it is majority Muslim. I am no fan of Islam (even less than a fan than I am of Christianity, which is pretty telling), but I know enough to know that speaking of "Muslims" as a monolithic group and ranting about how "the focus should be on making it so we don't have
Jews Muslims in Western society" is based on bigotry, not fact. You are smart enough to know better, but play the card anyway.
Quote from: Valmy on April 17, 2017, 11:58:27 AM
Well we had this thing called the 'Wars of Religion' in the 16th and 17th centuries that were pretty influential on how Christians relate to their governments. Pretty sure Grumbler has heard of them so I am not sure why he is acting like that whole business never occured.
:secret:
I just took Otto's words and changed "Muslim" to "Christian." If you think my statement was over the top, you might want to consider the possibility that I am mocking bigots, not joining them.Lots of lands with religions have had wars of religion. I'm pretty sure Valmy has heard of organizations like The Moral Majority (that survived the Treaty of Westphalia) and was aware that, e.g.
The Life of Brian was subject to Christian government censorship on the grounds of blasphemy. Not even he would argue, I'll wager, that the actions of a few should be assumed to be the attitude of the whole, and that the West should ban entire religious beliefs.
Quote from: Valmy on April 17, 2017, 12:54:59 PM
Ok well here is the thing though: most of these theological Islamic states are shitholes with little redeemable about them. I have a hard time seeing people growing up in Germany, even the children and grandchildren of Muslims immigrants, being convinced that that is a good idea in mass numbers.
I think being a fervent supporter of the system that fucks you the hardest is a fairly common phenomenon. We don't have to look far to see it. Some people just like it rough.
Trump called Erdogan to congratulate him. :hmm:
Quote from: OttoVonBismarck on April 17, 2017, 10:43:10 AM
Quote from: Zanza on April 17, 2017, 04:05:36 AMBut what I mainly meant with "not accepting" is more on an information, education and respect level. There is a surprising number of young Turks (no matter their actual passport) that were in favor of the referendum. They feel excluded from our society, not respected as Turks and lack information about the political situation in Turkey and the consequences of this referendum. We should try to win them over to our own liberal view and not leave them for Erdogan to entice with his authoritarian nationalism. That's something that your society has so far not done at all or at least too little. Another failure of integration. Lamenting their views and suggesting illegal activities like deportation won't help. We need to try to improve the situation with the means that we actually have.
That's why you and your people are headed for the dustbin of history. You simply cannot address the Islamist curse with these liberal soft-power approaches. They are a brute people who understand and respect brute force, anything else they ignore.
From what I can see, it was about nationalism, not about islamism. That's not the same thing.
Quote from: Zanza on April 17, 2017, 08:37:56 PM
Trump called Erdogan to congratulate him. :hmm:
He wishes he could pass such a major constitutional change via simple majority too.
Quote from: FunkMonk on April 17, 2017, 09:18:07 PM
Quote from: Zanza on April 17, 2017, 08:37:56 PM
Trump called Erdogan to congratulate him. :hmm:
He wishes he could pass such a major constitutional change via simple majority too.
He also wishes he could get a majority of voters in an election.
Quote from: alfred russel on April 17, 2017, 09:25:22 PM
Quote from: FunkMonk on April 17, 2017, 09:18:07 PM
Quote from: Zanza on April 17, 2017, 08:37:56 PM
Trump called Erdogan to congratulate him. :hmm:
He wishes he could pass such a major constitutional change via simple majority too.
He also wishes he could get a majority of voters in an election.
:D
Quote from: Berkut on April 17, 2017, 12:45:00 PM
I think Islamism is a serious middle term threat in parts of Europe that are seeing a lot of immigration combined with low birth rates and (relatively) weak liberal institutions.
What are those parts of Europe, exactly?
First of all, isn't Gulen an imam? I know "Gulenist" is used by the Turkish government on anyone with a dissenting opinion (or look on their face, or just standing in the way of somebody's promotion at the local town council), but why have WE started referring to Gulenists as beacons of democracy?
Secondly, votes from abroad must be a hundred times easier to cheat away than internal ones so I wouldn't get too hung up on those numbers. It's like Putin's poll numbers in Russia. If you believe any of that shit you are just showing yourself a Westerner incapable of thinking outside of their own First World box.
Thirdly, I can fully believe the majority of foreign Turks voting for Erdogan to be crowned Sultan. Why wouldn't they? Do you really think all that blue collar workforce went abroad because they didn't like the finer points of state of democracy and liberal values in their country? No they went because their economical situation was hopeless.
They voted for the eastern version of a "strong man who fixes shit". Their counterparts have already done so in the US so there is not much ground left for high horses.
Of course they don't share the liberal democratic values of their host countries. Look at the bloody polls in Western Europe on the up and coming far right: a far greater number of European natives give exactly fuckall for the same values.
Quote from: Zanza on April 17, 2017, 08:37:56 PM
Trump called Erdogan to congratulate him. :hmm:
After or before Putin? :P
Quote from: Solmyr on April 18, 2017, 03:58:54 AM
Quote from: Berkut on April 17, 2017, 12:45:00 PM
I think Islamism is a serious middle term threat in parts of Europe that are seeing a lot of immigration combined with low birth rates and (relatively) weak liberal institutions.
What are those parts of Europe, exactly?
The important parts.
Quote from: Jacob on April 17, 2017, 04:13:49 PM
Quote from: Valmy on April 17, 2017, 02:18:26 PM
Why would Erdogan supporters be MORE motivated? Wouldn't those forced out of the country by Erdogan be more motivated? I mean now they will have a hard time even visiting.
A lot of the original Turkish immigrants to Europe (in the 60s and 70s) were deliberately recruited from backwards rural areas. The succeeding waves of immigration, as is often the case, plugged into the now established network. Most Turks in the EU are not refugees of any sort, as I understand it, but people in search of a better quality of life and their descendants.
Right. But why would they be so passionately motivated?
Quote from: Zanza on April 17, 2017, 08:37:56 PM
Trump called Erdogan to congratulate him. :hmm:
Wait. Is that true? Surely it cannot be true. I don't even have the heart to fact check this.
Quote from: Valmy on April 18, 2017, 09:45:59 AM
Quote from: Zanza on April 17, 2017, 08:37:56 PM
Trump called Erdogan to congratulate him. :hmm:
Wait. Is that true? Surely it cannot be true. I don't even have the heart to fact check this.
It is being reported by the New York Times, the Washington Post, and other fake news outlets today, yes.
Quote from: Valmy on April 18, 2017, 09:45:59 AM
Quote from: Zanza on April 17, 2017, 08:37:56 PM
Trump called Erdogan to congratulate him. :hmm:
Wait. Is that true? Surely it cannot be true. I don't even have the heart to fact check this.
http://edition.cnn.com/2017/04/18/europe/turkey-referendum-trump-erdogan/index.html
QuoteUS President Donald Trump has become the first Western leader to congratulate Turkish President Recep Tayyip Erdogan for winning a controversial referendum that grants him far-reaching, largely unchecked powers.
Trump called the Turkish leader on Monday shortly after international monitors delivered a harsh verdict on the referendum on constitutional changes. They found that the opposition campaign had been restricted and the media coverage was imbalanced, and that the electoral authority had unfairly changed the rules after polls had opened.
Trump joins a short list of leaders who have openly congratulated Erdogan, including Azerbaijani President Ilham Aliyev and Saudi King Salman.
His congratulations stands in stark contrast to the more cautious tone adopted by European leaders and a statement issued by the US State Department, which acknowledged the results but warned against further repression by the Turkish government of the political opposition.
"We look to the government of Turkey to protect the fundamental rights and freedoms of all its citizens -- regardless of their vote on April 16 -- as guaranteed by the Turkish constitution and in accordance with Turkey's international commitments," the State Department said in a statement.
"Democracies gain strength through respect for diverse points of view, especially on difficult issues."
The Turkish government has been widely condemned by Western nations for its repression of opposition figures following a failed military coup last year.
"The tight referendum result shows how deeply divided Turkish society is and that means a big responsibility for the Turkish leadership and for President Erdogan personally," Germany's Chancellor Angela Merkel and Foreign Minister Sigmar Gabriel said in a joint statement, calling for a "respectful dialogue" in Ankara with the opposition and all parts of Turkish society.
Erdogan's margin of victory in the referendum was razor-thin. Despite a state of emergency and a widespread crackdown on dissent, he succeeded in persuading only 51.4% of voters to back his constitutional upheaval.
The French government said it would "follow with great care" the international monitors' final report in coming weeks, particularly in relation to a reported last-minute change of rules by the electoral boards to allow ballots that had not been officially stamped. The change has raise concerns of "ballot-stuffing" -- where extra votes are cast illegally to manipulate results.
"Only the Turks can decide their political organization. But figures already published show that Turkish society is divided on this planned important reforms," it said, calling for "a free and sincere dialogue" in Turkey among all components of political and social life.
Erdogan has lashed back at the OSCE international monitors' initial findings, telling them to "know their place," Reuters reports.
He said that Turkey did not "see, hear or acknowledge" the observer mission's reports and accused some European countries of showing more opposition to the constitutional changes than Turkey's own opposition parties.
Relations between Turkey and Europe's powerhouse nations have come under strain over Erdogan's comments that he would seek the restoration of the death penalty -- a move that would sink Turkey's long-stalled bid to join the European Union.
"We have said this over and over in my speeches. As I said this will come before the parliament and if it is passed from the parliament, I would approve this. I would confirm. Why? Because we do not have the authority to forgive the murders of our martyrs," Erdogan said at a rally Monday.
I...see...
Yeah I have nothing.
Quote from: Tamas on April 18, 2017, 06:49:55 AM
First of all, isn't Gulen an imam? I know "Gulenist" is used by the Turkish government on anyone with a dissenting opinion (or look on their face, or just standing in the way of somebody's promotion at the local town council), but why have WE started referring to Gulenists as beacons of democracy?
I do because they ones I know are out there fighting for education, democracy, and interfaith understanding. Why you are is your business.
And actually it is not even that I necessarily support Gulen himself, frankly I know little about him. I just support the good work my friends do who claim to be part of his movement.
I want to be outraged, but I know even my outrage is wasted on Trump and people who support him. They simply don't care - not only do they not care, they actually take delight in the outrage of the rational.
When Trump lies, his fans don't just ignore the lie, they love it. It is, for them, a sign of his power that even the truth is no bound on him and what he can say. It isn't that the truth doesn't matter, it is exactly the opposite. Only the weak would care about such things.
This is why derspeiss for example can actually say something like "Sure Trump is a mess, but he is better than Hillary!". Because the truth not only does not matter, it is actually that the truth is an active negative to be disparaged and mocked. It doesn't matter that all that bullshit about her emails turned up nothing substantial, because Trump had millions and millions at his inauguration, and won the electoral college by the largest margin in history.
Not only are you suffering from Trump Derangement Syndrome, but apparently you've also developed Derspiess Derangement Syndrome. So sad!
Quote from: derspiess on April 18, 2017, 10:25:35 AM
Not only are you suffering from Trump Derangement Syndrome, but apparently you've also developed Derspiess Derangement Syndrome. So sad!
Oh is it now deranged to NOT cheer on dictators? You really are embracing this Cold War Democrat stuff you self-identify as.
Quote from: Valmy on April 18, 2017, 09:58:32 AM
I...see...
Yeah I have nothing.
You have exactly what you were told you were going to get.
Quote from: CountDeMoney on April 18, 2017, 10:28:14 AM
You have exactly what you were told you were going to get.
Somehow I still get surprised.
Quote from: Valmy on April 18, 2017, 10:29:05 AM
Quote from: CountDeMoney on April 18, 2017, 10:28:14 AM
You have exactly what you were told you were going to get.
Somehow I still get surprised.
You better flush out your head gear, new guy. This isn't about freedom.
Quote from: Valmy on April 18, 2017, 10:26:52 AM
Oh is it now deranged to NOT cheer on dictators?
Never said that. It was a stupid move on his part, and even worse to publicize it like he did. I know he did this in the context of galvanizing Erdogan's support for his Syria policy (another stupid move IMO), but there's no excuse.
Trump's a bad seed. What am I supposed to do??
QuoteYou really are embracing this Cold War Democrat stuff you self-identify as.
:D Cut that out now.
Quote from: CountDeMoney on April 18, 2017, 10:31:39 AM
Quote from: Valmy on April 18, 2017, 10:29:05 AM
Quote from: CountDeMoney on April 18, 2017, 10:28:14 AM
You have exactly what you were told you were going to get.
Somehow I still get surprised.
You better flush out your head gear, new guy. This isn't about freedom.
:punk:
Quote from: derspiess on April 18, 2017, 10:40:03 AM
:punk:
derfetusfacefucker: the Barry Manilow of Trump voters
Quote from: derspiess on April 18, 2017, 10:25:35 AM
Not only are you suffering from Trump Derangement Syndrome, but apparently you've also developed Derspiess Derangement Syndrome. So sad!
Of course, the truth doesn't matter, so say whatever you like, Sean. Keep defending Trump though.
Okay so now I'm Hannity? YOU'VE GONE TOO FAR SIR
Apparently the EU is requesting an investigation into alleged irregularities in the referendum claimed by international observers. They're talking of 1.5 million votes that were accepted late in the process that would have been invalidated in past elections.
Quote from: Oexmelin on April 17, 2017, 05:32:16 PM
Apologies - I did not mean to say that their reactionary vote was inexplicable (which, politically, is a way to paint them as dangerous). On the contrary, I think there are many ways to explain their vote. What I meant to suggest is that the move to normalize the immigrant experience - which has the laudable goal of making immigrants of today similar to those of the past - often glosses over the changes in communication, connection, and feeling of belonging that happened in the last hundred years. In short, if the "liberal perspective" is just to wait until assimilation "happens", I fear it may not be sufficient to address the political challenges of our times.
Yeah, I think that boat has sailed in Europe a while ago. I don't, however, think that the sailing was due to modern communication technology but other facts. Because, IMO, the "liberal perspective" where assimilation "happens" is still working fairly well here in Canada and we have the same technology exposure as they have in Europe - so while there may be complicated and intractable issues facing Europe on the subject of immigration and integration I don't think it's down to technology particularly. People have always been good at communicating and staying aware of things they cared about, and expat communities with strong connections to the internal political struggles of their country of origin has been a feature of pretty much all recorded history.
I am not sure that boat was ever in port in Europe with its long history of ethnic strife, though some countries did better than others.
Quote from: Valmy on April 18, 2017, 12:00:36 PM
I am not sure that boat was ever in port in Europe with its long history of ethnic strife, though some countries did better than others.
The same goes for every other place on this globe.
Quote from: Crazy_Ivan80 on April 18, 2017, 02:32:23 PM
Quote from: Valmy on April 18, 2017, 12:00:36 PM
I am not sure that boat was ever in port in Europe with its long history of ethnic strife, though some countries did better than others.
The same goes for every other place on this globe.
Certainly in your hemisphere.
I chuckled at this tweet:
After referendum (condemned by EU) allowing Erdogan to rule until 2029 Turkey was congratulated by:
Azerbaijan
Qatar
Iran
Belarus
Russia
USA
Quote from: Liep on April 18, 2017, 04:32:05 PM
I chuckled at this tweet:
After referendum (condemned by EU) allowing Erdogan to rule until 2029 Turkey was congratulated by:
Azerbaijan
Qatar
Iran
Belarus
Russia
USA
Hopefully we can at least get the FIFA world cup out of this crap. We seem to be hanging with all the right people. :lol:
Quote from: Liep on April 18, 2017, 04:32:05 PM
I chuckled at this tweet:
After referendum (condemned by EU) allowing Erdogan to rule until 2029 Turkey was congratulated by:
Azerbaijan
Qatar
Iran
Belarus
Russia
USA
:face:
Quote from: alfred russel on April 18, 2017, 07:51:11 PM
Quote from: Liep on April 18, 2017, 04:32:05 PM
I chuckled at this tweet:
After referendum (condemned by EU) allowing Erdogan to rule until 2029 Turkey was congratulated by:
Azerbaijan
Qatar
Iran
Belarus
Russia
USA
Hopefully we can at least get the FIFA world cup out of this crap. We seem to be hanging with all the right people. :lol:
I don't want those goddamn foreigners in my country. USA USA USA
The US, Mexico, and Canada are going to jointly host the World Cup in 2026. Or at least that is the plan.
Quote from: Valmy on April 18, 2017, 09:13:19 PM
The US, Mexico, and Canada are going to jointly host the World Cup in 2026. Or at least that is the plan.
Two leeches on 'Murica. Disgusting.
Quote from: Valmy on April 18, 2017, 09:13:19 PM
The US, Mexico, and Canada are going to jointly host the World Cup in 2026. Or at least that is the plan.
That is stupid. Basically the host would be the north american continent.
Quote from: alfred russel on April 18, 2017, 09:24:38 PM
Quote from: Valmy on April 18, 2017, 09:13:19 PM
The US, Mexico, and Canada are going to jointly host the World Cup in 2026. Or at least that is the plan.
That is stupid. Basically the host would be the north american continent.
Yeah, piss on that. All three nations are suitable to host it individually, there's no need for a combined "North American" host.
We hosted 1994, and it was a brilliant success, and it's not even our fucking sport.
Quote from: Liep on April 18, 2017, 04:32:05 PM
I chuckled at this tweet:
After referendum (condemned by EU) allowing Erdogan to rule until 2029 Turkey was congratulated by:
Azerbaijan
Qatar
Iran
Belarus
Russia
USA
You left Hungary out of this prestigious list! :mad:
Quote from: Berkut on April 18, 2017, 11:22:05 AM
Of course, the truth doesn't matter, so say whatever you like, Sean. Keep defending Trump though.
Erin go bragh?
A website was joking that Turks in Austria are well integrated, because the majority voted in favor of a strong leader. :XD:
Quote from: CountDeMoney on April 18, 2017, 11:14:42 PM
Quote from: alfred russel on April 18, 2017, 09:24:38 PM
Quote from: Valmy on April 18, 2017, 09:13:19 PM
The US, Mexico, and Canada are going to jointly host the World Cup in 2026. Or at least that is the plan.
That is stupid. Basically the host would be the north american continent.
Yeah, piss on that. All three nations are suitable to host it individually, there's no need for a combined "North American" host.
We hosted 1994, and it was a brilliant success, and it's not even our fucking sport.
Think of Canada, unable to qualify, despite a lot of slots for CONCACAF. ;)
I am cool with the Cup arrangement.
It is really the US hosting, and we are throwing a few games to Canada and Mexico. I think the vast majority of games will be in the US, including all the quarter, semis, and finals.
Multi country hosting makes sense. Means less money blown on preparation by one country.
Just so long as all 3 don't get automatic qualification
Right...because Trump's America is exactly the kind of border and customs experience you want to deal with for a multinational sporting event hosted by three different countries. Have fun with that.
Quote from: Tyr on April 19, 2017, 09:02:35 AM
Multi country hosting makes sense. Means less money blown on preparation by one country.
Just so long as all 3 don't get automatic qualification
When Japan and S. Korea co-hosted in 2002, both qualified automatically.
Wow I didn't mean to hijack such an important thread.
Anyway I am pretty sure the whole thing is just a conspiracy to sneak Canada into the World Cup.
Quote from: Valmy on April 19, 2017, 09:28:26 AM
Wow I didn't mean to hijack such an important thread.
Anyway I am pretty sure the whole thing is just a conspiracy to sneak Canada into the World Cup.
:shifty:
In 2020 the European Championship will be played all over the continent and no single country will qualify automatically as host.
So far the only World Cup with multiple hosts has been the Japan/S. Korea one, FIFA seems less adventurous than UEFA with that format, although for 2026 besides the US/Canada/Mexico one there are a couple of other multi-country potential bids (there are talks of a Turkey/Azerbaijan one, as well of an Australia/Nz one, although this might be a bit of a mess since they belong to different continental federations). For 2030 there are rumours of an ASEAN joint bid that would involve 10 countries.
I really doubt that, if successful, they'd allow all of those countries to qualify directly as hosts.
Russia, then Qatar, then Turkey.
That's just great.
I really don't think they are going to have three consecutive cups in Asia.
Qatar has roughly as many inhabitants (and probably a similar GDP) as the borough of Queens. If they can host it, anybody can and you don't really need transcontinental groups of countries hosting it.
FIFA should one up UEFA and hold a tournament in 16 countries on all continents at once. :P
Quote from: Zanza on April 19, 2017, 11:26:32 AM
Qatar has roughly as many inhabitants (and probably a similar GDP) as the borough of Queens. If they can host it, anybody can and you don't really need transcontinental groups of countries hosting it.
The Watar World Cup is the most illogical, most bizarre, and most scandal-ridden World Cup in history. I don't think it's a good idea to hold it up as some kind of model.
While the US alone is probably capable of holding a World Cup by itself, the idea of sharing it across several countries is probably a good one. That way you don't have countries like Brazil or Qatar spending billions of dollars on stadiums that really don't have any use later on.
Canada and Mexico are the 10th and 15th biggest economies in the world and can easily hold a world cup alone as well.
in 2026 Asian & Europe can't host per FIFAs own rule.
I think CONCACAF, lead by Soccer Canada president, is sneaking Mexico & Canada in the bid to please FIFA. FIFA reportably loves Canada hosting events. Especially for women's soccer.
I think all 3 host nations will qualify. The field is getting expanded to 48 anyway. Not all those teams are going to be from SA & Europe.
Quote from: Zanza on April 19, 2017, 11:58:32 AM
Canada and Mexico are the 10th and 15th biggest economies in the world and can easily hold a world cup alone as well.
Remember when we held the women's world cup, and there was a big issue over women playing on artificial turf?
Canada doesn't have enough "pure" soccer stadiums to host a World Cup. I think the only one that has grass is Toronto's BMO Field (though at 40,000 sounds a little small for a World Cup game). If you can use CFL football stadiums we would have plenty - but they all have artificial turf.
So why spend all that money to convert 7 or 8 facilities to natural turf for just a month?
Quote from: Barrister on April 19, 2017, 12:06:21 PM
Quote from: Zanza on April 19, 2017, 11:58:32 AM
Canada and Mexico are the 10th and 15th biggest economies in the world and can easily hold a world cup alone as well.
Remember when we held the women's world cup, and there was a big issue over women playing on artificial turf?
Canada doesn't have enough "pure" soccer stadiums to host a World Cup. I think the only one that has grass is Toronto's BMO Field (though at 40,000 sounds a little small for a World Cup game). If you can use CFL football stadiums we would have plenty - but they all have artificial turf.
So why spend all that money to convert 7 or 8 facilities to natural turf for just a month?
In the 2014 World Cup there were several venues that hoovered around the 40k capacity, so that's not an issue. The artificial turf is, though, I don't think FIFA would allow for it to be used in a WC venue.
Quote from: Barrister on April 19, 2017, 12:06:21 PM
Quote from: Zanza on April 19, 2017, 11:58:32 AM
Canada and Mexico are the 10th and 15th biggest economies in the world and can easily hold a world cup alone as well.
Remember when we held the women's world cup, and there was a big issue over women playing on artificial turf?
Canada doesn't have enough "pure" soccer stadiums to host a World Cup. I think the only one that has grass is Toronto's BMO Field (though at 40,000 sounds a little small for a World Cup game). If you can use CFL football stadiums we would have plenty - but they all have artificial turf.
So why spend all that money to convert 7 or 8 facilities to natural turf for just a month?
Stade Saputo has real grass but it's only ~24k.
Quote from: Valmy on April 18, 2017, 02:38:19 PM
Quote from: Crazy_Ivan80 on April 18, 2017, 02:32:23 PM
Quote from: Valmy on April 18, 2017, 12:00:36 PM
I am not sure that boat was ever in port in Europe with its long history of ethnic strife, though some countries did better than others.
The same goes for every other place on this globe.
Certainly in your hemisphere.
All hemispheres. I know it's hard for many americans to accept but you're just like everybody else. Just as filled with suck.
Quote from: Crazy_Ivan80 on April 19, 2017, 12:45:51 PM
All hemispheres. I know it's hard for many americans to accept but you're just like everybody else. Just as filled with suck.
Oh we have suck just different flavors of suck over here.
Quote from: Valmy on April 19, 2017, 12:46:43 PM
Quote from: Crazy_Ivan80 on April 19, 2017, 12:45:51 PM
All hemispheres. I know it's hard for many americans to accept but you're just like everybody else. Just as filled with suck.
Oh we have suck just different flavors of suck over here.
nope, the same flavours.
Quote from: Crazy_Ivan80 on April 19, 2017, 12:51:36 PM
Quote from: Valmy on April 19, 2017, 12:46:43 PM
Quote from: Crazy_Ivan80 on April 19, 2017, 12:45:51 PM
All hemispheres. I know it's hard for many americans to accept but you're just like everybody else. Just as filled with suck.
Oh we have suck just different flavors of suck over here.
nope, the same flavours.
Well I disagree. I think countries born out of colonialism have fundamental differences. Not necessary better ones but different.
But hey I am the internationalist liberal so if you insist everybody is exactly the same everywhere I guess I should eagerly embrace it. That rather undermines your nationalism doesn't it?
Soccer is for fags, stop talking about it.
Quote from: OttoVonBismarck on April 19, 2017, 01:15:08 PM
Soccer is for fags, stop talking about it.
Seriously though could a mod transfer the soccer stuff to the soccer thread? This Turkey business is something I think is important enough to keep the thread focused.
Quote from: Valmy on April 19, 2017, 01:31:08 PM
Quote from: OttoVonBismarck on April 19, 2017, 01:15:08 PM
Soccer is for fags, stop talking about it.
Seriously though could a mod transfer the soccer stuff to the soccer thread? This Turkey business is something I think is important enough to keep the thread focused.
Nah. Just stop talking about it and start talking about Turkey again.
Quote from: Valmy on April 19, 2017, 12:57:34 PM
Quote from: Crazy_Ivan80 on April 19, 2017, 12:51:36 PM
Quote from: Valmy on April 19, 2017, 12:46:43 PM
Quote from: Crazy_Ivan80 on April 19, 2017, 12:45:51 PM
All hemispheres. I know it's hard for many americans to accept but you're just like everybody else. Just as filled with suck.
Oh we have suck just different flavors of suck over here.
nope, the same flavours.
Well I disagree. I think countries born out of colonialism have fundamental differences. Not necessary better ones but different.
But hey I am the internationalist liberal so if you insist everybody is exactly the same everywhere I guess I should eagerly embrace it. That rather undermines your nationalism doesn't it?
:hug:
I am torn on the Turkey question.
A nice brine overnight makes for a great bird, but can you really beat deep frying the entire thing????
Quote from: Berkut on April 19, 2017, 01:54:40 PM
I am torn on the Turkey question.
A nice brine overnight makes for a great bird, but can you really beat deep frying the entire thing????
I'm a turkey traditionalist. Jam that motherfucker into the oven until it is painfully dry. And give the dark meat to the pets.
Quote from: Ed Anger on April 19, 2017, 08:24:11 PM
I'm a turkey traditionalist. Jam that motherfucker into the oven until it is painfully dry. And give the dark meat to the pets.
Praise Jesus.
Dark meat grosses me out.
I don't get the folks who gnaw on turkey drumsticks at Ren Fen.
Chicken is almost always better than turkey.
Turkey makes better imitation beef than chicken.
Quote from: Eddie Teach on April 20, 2017, 01:40:03 AM
Turkey makes better imitation beef than chicken.
Best beef imitation way is beancurd. Or ostrich meat.
Never had ostrich, but beans are never a suitable substitute for meat.
Quote from: Eddie Teach on April 20, 2017, 02:25:01 AM
Never had ostrich, but beans are never a suitable substitute for meat.
There is an entire industry in China that is dedicated to making tofu taste like meat. These vegetarian food places are all over, and their products are sold in supermarkets. Granted, most of the mass market stuff only have a slight resemblance to meat in terms of taste. But I have been to some of the good restaurants that do this business, and they do a good job of imitation.
I am only talking about taste though. No idea about nutrition.
When I stayed in Vancouver, the Chinese restaurant the we frequented specialised in ostrich meat. I'd say it is about 60% like ground beef, both in terms of taste and appearance. It won't pass as steak.
There is an entire industry in Chicago that is dedicated to making pizza taste like shit.
Quote from: The Brain on April 20, 2017, 02:44:08 PM
There is an entire industry in Chicago that is dedicated to making pizza taste like shit.
:lol: :yes:
I have turned many pizzas into actual shit. :)
In other news, Raz seems to post in this thread less often these days. :hmm:
Quote from: Monoriu on April 20, 2017, 02:30:04 AM
Quote from: Eddie Teach on April 20, 2017, 02:25:01 AM
Never had ostrich, but beans are never a suitable substitute for meat.
There is an entire industry in China that is dedicated to making tofu taste like meat. These vegetarian food places are all over, and their products are sold in supermarkets. Granted, most of the mass market stuff only have a slight resemblance to meat in terms of taste. But I have been to some of the good restaurants that do this business, and they do a good job of imitation.
I am only talking about taste though. No idea about nutrition.
When I stayed in Vancouver, the Chinese restaurant the we frequented specialised in ostrich meat. I'd say it is about 60% like ground beef, both in terms of taste and appearance. It won't pass as steak.
This is China though, so there's a good chance that the best imitation meat is actually meat.
Quote from: HVC on April 20, 2017, 07:54:29 PM
Quote from: Monoriu on April 20, 2017, 02:30:04 AM
Quote from: Eddie Teach on April 20, 2017, 02:25:01 AM
Never had ostrich, but beans are never a suitable substitute for meat.
There is an entire industry in China that is dedicated to making tofu taste like meat. These vegetarian food places are all over, and their products are sold in supermarkets. Granted, most of the mass market stuff only have a slight resemblance to meat in terms of taste. But I have been to some of the good restaurants that do this business, and they do a good job of imitation.
I am only talking about taste though. No idea about nutrition.
When I stayed in Vancouver, the Chinese restaurant the we frequented specialised in ostrich meat. I'd say it is about 60% like ground beef, both in terms of taste and appearance. It won't pass as steak.
This is China though, so there's a good chance that the best imitation meat is actually meat.
Beef is notoriously bad and expensive in China. Chinese just don't know how to cook beef well. Maybe the cattle in China just isn't that suitable for this kind of consumption. It is an open secret that a lot of restaurants in China use beancurd, pork and other stuff to imitate beef. It is best to stick to other kinds of meat in China.
Chinese usually overcook beef too. Any pink seems to be regarded as dangerous.
Quote from: Camerus on April 20, 2017, 10:20:51 PM
Chinese usually overcook beef too. Any pink seems to be regarded as dangerous.
That too. I have seen a lot of Chinese walk into sushi places and say they only want cooked fish. That made the Japanese headlines when they did that in one of the most prestigious sushi places in Tokyo. The sushi places in HK are so used to that request now, they now produce half-cooked sushi for these customers.
Quote from: Monoriu on April 20, 2017, 10:46:52 PM
Quote from: Camerus on April 20, 2017, 10:20:51 PM
Chinese usually overcook beef too. Any pink seems to be regarded as dangerous.
That too. I have seen a lot of Chinese walk into sushi places and say they only want cooked fish. That made the Japanese headlines when they did that in one of the most prestigious sushi places in Tokyo. The sushi places in HK are so used to that request now, they now produce half-cooked sushi for these customers.
I don't understand why people think that is so terrible.
There is a lot to like about sushi that has nothing to do with whether the little bits of meat that aren't actually even necessary for sushi are cooked or not.
I don't ever really eat sushi with cooked fish in it, but I can certainly understand why there could be a lot of people who really like sushi, but do not like raw fish.
There's some sushi varieties that are served cooked/boiled. Eel and shrimp are cooked for example.
Wegmans has very good sushi,
They mark it very clearly for our peasant American tastes. Raw stuff has a red label, cooked has...green I think? and blue has no fish at all.
It is like ordering 'cooked beef tartare'. Beef tartare is, by definition, raw.
Yes, you can put cooked ingredients on top of rice and call it sushi. Eel is a good example. A lot of sushi places do set menus only. The chef gives you, say, 12 pieces of sushi. 1-2 of them is cooked, the rest is raw. Walking into those places and demanding the whole set be cooked is like ordering cooked beef tartare. It doesn't work. Want sushi with cooked ingredients only? Then go to places that actually do that.
Quote from: Monoriu on April 21, 2017, 07:41:32 AM
It is like ordering 'cooked beef tartare'. Beef tartare is, by definition, raw.
Yes, you can put cooked ingredients on top of rice and call it sushi. Eel is a good example. A lot of sushi places do set menus only. The chef gives you, say, 12 pieces of sushi. 1-2 of them is cooked, the rest is raw. Walking into those places and demanding the whole set be cooked is like ordering cooked beef tartare. It doesn't work. Want sushi with cooked ingredients only? Then go to places that actually do that.
You just said that some sushi is in fact cooked, so by definition it cannot be like having cooked steak tartare, since there is no steak tartare that is cooked. It is an oxymoron.
If some places only do raw sushi, that is fine, but that has nothing to do with the idea that sushi MUST be raw.
Your analogy is like saying you go into a steak restaurant that serves steak tartare along with cooked steak as well, ask for only the cooked steak, and the chef throws a fit because damnit, you have to eat the raw stuff to enjoy the not raw stuff.
I've been in a lot of sushi restaurants, including some really excellent ones, and I have yet to be in one that has no sushi without raw fish in it. There is plenty with no fish at all, for example.
So no, it is obviously not at all similar to cooked steak tartare.
The bitching over this is just food snobbery. "Oh look at me, I am so sophisticated! I can't stand those peasants who won't eat thing the way I eat them!"
Who cares if someone people don't like raw fish? More raw fish for me.
Quote from: Berkut on April 21, 2017, 08:16:09 AM
Quote from: Monoriu on April 21, 2017, 07:41:32 AM
It is like ordering 'cooked beef tartare'. Beef tartare is, by definition, raw.
Yes, you can put cooked ingredients on top of rice and call it sushi. Eel is a good example. A lot of sushi places do set menus only. The chef gives you, say, 12 pieces of sushi. 1-2 of them is cooked, the rest is raw. Walking into those places and demanding the whole set be cooked is like ordering cooked beef tartare. It doesn't work. Want sushi with cooked ingredients only? Then go to places that actually do that.
You just said that some sushi is in fact cooked, so by definition it cannot be like having cooked steak tartare, since there is no steak tartare that is cooked. It is an oxymoron.
If some places only do raw sushi, that is fine, but that has nothing to do with the idea that sushi MUST be raw.
Your analogy is like saying you go into a steak restaurant that serves steak tartare along with cooked steak as well, ask for only the cooked steak, and the chef throws a fit because damnit, you have to eat the raw stuff to enjoy the not raw stuff.
I've been in a lot of sushi restaurants, including some really excellent ones, and I have yet to be in one that has no sushi without raw fish in it. There is plenty with no fish at all, for example.
So no, it is obviously not at all similar to cooked steak tartare.
The bitching over this is just food snobbery. "Oh look at me, I am so sophisticated! I can't stand those peasants who won't eat thing the way I eat them!"
Who cares if someone people don't like raw fish? More raw fish for me.
The way a traditional sushi place works is like this. The place has several sets on offer. Could be 8 pieces a set, 10 pieces a set, and 12 pieces a set. You choose from set A, B, or C. The ingredients for each set is, well, set. Usually, one or two pieces in each set is cooked. Usually eel or prawns. The rest is raw fish. Or raw shellfish.
You walk into this place, the chef asks you if you want set A, B, or C. You reply that you want none of the above, because you want all the fish and shellfish be cooked. Chef says I can't do it, and throws you out. That's not food snobbery. That's demanding cooked beef tartare.
If you don't want raw fish, there is nothing wrong with that. Just don't go to these places. Plenty of sushi places do cooked stuff. What made the Japanese headlines is Chinese tourists going to Jiro. They do raw fish, and that's all they do, with few exceptions that usually form a small part of a set.
Yes, I am sure what made Japanese headlines had nothing to do with food snobbery or mocking the peasants for not liking things the way the food snobs insist they must be enjoyed. Because that is clearly headline making news otherwise. "Tourist asks for food restaurant does serve! Details at 11!!!"
If some places only serve their sushi raw, then yes, one should probably avoid those places if one only wants cooked fish. Mocking people for doing so, however, says more about the douchebags who think it is mock worthy than the people who (gasp!) want their food the way they like, and may not be aware that some particular restaurant specifically specializes in food they do NOT like.
But none of this is my point, which is far more a general observation that there is nothing about "sushi" in general that demands that it be only served with raw fish. It is perfectly reasonable to find sushi to be something very enjoyable to eat while at the same time NOT liking raw fish. And that is nothing like saying you want cooked steak tartare, which simply doesn't make sense at all.
Finally, I don't know what a "traditional" sushi place operates like, since I've been in a huge number of sushi places that operate in radically different manners. Is "traditional" more code for "food served the way food snobs think it ought to be served"?
Quote from: Monoriu on April 21, 2017, 08:26:22 AM
You walk into this place, the chef asks you if you want set A, B, or C. You reply that you want none of the above, because you want all the fish and shellfish be cooked. Chef says I can't do it, and throws you out. That's not food snobbery. That's demanding cooked beef tartare.
And no, that is demanding something from a restaurant they don't serve. It is not demanding something from a restaurant that they could not serve, because by definition the dish itself cannot actually exist in any restaurant.
It is not food snobbery, but making fun of someone who doesn't want to eat some particular food is certainly food snobbery. I don't fault the restaurant for not giving them what they want, but the idea that that is headlines worthy news just shows that people who find such headlines worthy are douchebags.
Someone goes into a restaurant, a foreigner nonetheless who likely doesn't know the language, and asks for something the restaurant doesn't serve. Restaurant says "Sorry, we don't serve that - these are the choices".
How the fuck is that news anywhere? The only reason it could possibly be interesting is the desire to make fun of the dirty Chinese peasants who don't know how to eat right. If that isn't food snobbery, then nothing is.
Surely there must be limits on what counts as reasonable? I mean, I may personally like wine that has been boiled. That's what I do at home, for argument's sake. I go to a restaurant and demand to drink boiled wine. Restaurant says it can't do it. That is food snobbery? I go to a steakhouse, refuse to stick to the menu, and demand only raw vegetables. A steakhouse must have vegetables too, and they must be able to do it raw, right? If I do that in a steakhouse, made the headlines, do I get to call the steakhouse food snobs?
There are sushi places that do cooked stuff for sure. Then there are traditional sushi places that, well, do the traditional stuff. Traditional stuff is mostly raw fish and shellfish, plus maybe one or two cooked items. Going to a known traditional place and demanding 100% cooked stuff is reasonable?
Erdogan probably has his Sushi with Kebab.
Are you reading my posts at all?
Quote from: Monoriu on April 21, 2017, 08:58:13 AM
Surely there must be limits on what counts as reasonable? I mean, I may personally like wine that has been boiled. That's what I do at home, for argument's sake. I go to a restaurant and demand to drink boiled wine. Restaurant says it can't do it. That is food snobbery? I go to a steakhouse, refuse to stick to the menu, and demand only raw vegetables. A steakhouse must have vegetables too, and they must be able to do it raw, right? If I do that in a steakhouse, made the headlines, do I get to call the steakhouse food snobs?
There are sushi places that do cooked stuff for sure. Then there are traditional sushi places that, well, do the traditional stuff. Traditional stuff is mostly raw fish and shellfish, plus maybe one or two cooked items. Going to a known traditional place and demanding 100% cooked stuff is reasonable?
You equate not liking raw sushi to wanting to drink boiled wine?
WTF?
Quote from: Berkut on April 21, 2017, 09:01:26 AM
Quote from: Monoriu on April 21, 2017, 08:58:13 AM
Surely there must be limits on what counts as reasonable? I mean, I may personally like wine that has been boiled. That's what I do at home, for argument's sake. I go to a restaurant and demand to drink boiled wine. Restaurant says it can't do it. That is food snobbery? I go to a steakhouse, refuse to stick to the menu, and demand only raw vegetables. A steakhouse must have vegetables too, and they must be able to do it raw, right? If I do that in a steakhouse, made the headlines, do I get to call the steakhouse food snobs?
There are sushi places that do cooked stuff for sure. Then there are traditional sushi places that, well, do the traditional stuff. Traditional stuff is mostly raw fish and shellfish, plus maybe one or two cooked items. Going to a known traditional place and demanding 100% cooked stuff is reasonable?
You equate not liking raw sushi to wanting to drink boiled wine?
WTF?
Well, there are people in the world who think drinking boiled wine is odd. Just like there are people in the world who think going to Jiro, one of the most well known places to eat raw fish in Japan, and demand all fish be cooked is odd.
Watching those little yellow bastards endlessly torment each other with their superiority complexes is hilarious.
Quote from: Berkut on April 21, 2017, 08:50:44 AM
Quote from: Monoriu on April 21, 2017, 08:26:22 AM
You walk into this place, the chef asks you if you want set A, B, or C. You reply that you want none of the above, because you want all the fish and shellfish be cooked. Chef says I can't do it, and throws you out. That's not food snobbery. That's demanding cooked beef tartare.
And no, that is demanding something from a restaurant they don't serve. It is not demanding something from a restaurant that they could not serve, because by definition the dish itself cannot actually exist in any restaurant.
It is not food snobbery, but making fun of someone who doesn't want to eat some particular food is certainly food snobbery. I don't fault the restaurant for not giving them what they want, but the idea that that is headlines worthy news just shows that people who find such headlines worthy are douchebags.
Someone goes into a restaurant, a foreigner nonetheless who likely doesn't know the language, and asks for something the restaurant doesn't serve. Restaurant says "Sorry, we don't serve that - these are the choices".
How the fuck is that news anywhere? The only reason it could possibly be interesting is the desire to make fun of the dirty Chinese peasants who don't know how to eat right. If that isn't food snobbery, then nothing is.
I am not talking about making fun of people who don't want to eat a particular food. I am talking about people who go to places that are specialised to do something, and demand the exact opposite. How about I go to Hooters and make a fuss about the clothes of the waitresses, because I think they all should be covered from top to bottom? If the news report that, is that snobbery now? Going to a place that does the best raw fish in the world, and demand cooked fish? Going to a place with the best wine list, and demand the wine be boiled to make them alcohol free? You don't see the irony?
Quote from: CountDeMoney on April 21, 2017, 09:13:58 AM
Watching those little yellow bastards endlessly torment each other with their superiority complexes is hilarious.
Even when they get carried away and bomb your naval bases?
Quote from: celedhring on April 21, 2017, 09:17:39 AM
Quote from: CountDeMoney on April 21, 2017, 09:13:58 AM
Watching those little yellow bastards endlessly torment each other with their superiority complexes is hilarious.
Even when they get carried away and bomb your naval bases?
They never do anything in moderation, either.
Quote from: Berkut on April 21, 2017, 08:46:21 AM
Yes, I am sure what made Japanese headlines had nothing to do with food snobbery or mocking the peasants for not liking things the way the food snobs insist they must be enjoyed. Because that is clearly headline making news otherwise. "Tourist asks for food restaurant does serve! Details at 11!!!"
If some places only serve their sushi raw, then yes, one should probably avoid those places if one only wants cooked fish. Mocking people for doing so, however, says more about the douchebags who think it is mock worthy than the people who (gasp!) want their food the way they like, and may not be aware that some particular restaurant specifically specializes in food they do NOT like.
But none of this is my point, which is far more a general observation that there is nothing about "sushi" in general that demands that it be only served with raw fish. It is perfectly reasonable to find sushi to be something very enjoyable to eat while at the same time NOT liking raw fish. And that is nothing like saying you want cooked steak tartare, which simply doesn't make sense at all.
Finally, I don't know what a "traditional" sushi place operates like, since I've been in a huge number of sushi places that operate in radically different manners. Is "traditional" more code for "food served the way food snobs think it ought to be served"?
I agree with Mono. Basic standards aren't food snobbery. If someone wants sushi with cooked tuna or salmon, he is a savage. That isn't food snobbery--that is just the way things are. It is like going into a steak restaurant and ordering a well done steak and eating it with lots of ketchup. Sure there are lots of places that will accommodate such requests, but those that care how their food is consumed and expect more from their customers than the ability to pay a bill will not, and in all cases the customers deserve to be mocked.
Quote from: Monoriu on April 21, 2017, 09:17:30 AM
Quote from: Berkut on April 21, 2017, 08:50:44 AM
Quote from: Monoriu on April 21, 2017, 08:26:22 AM
You walk into this place, the chef asks you if you want set A, B, or C. You reply that you want none of the above, because you want all the fish and shellfish be cooked. Chef says I can't do it, and throws you out. That's not food snobbery. That's demanding cooked beef tartare.
And no, that is demanding something from a restaurant they don't serve. It is not demanding something from a restaurant that they could not serve, because by definition the dish itself cannot actually exist in any restaurant.
It is not food snobbery, but making fun of someone who doesn't want to eat some particular food is certainly food snobbery. I don't fault the restaurant for not giving them what they want, but the idea that that is headlines worthy news just shows that people who find such headlines worthy are douchebags.
Someone goes into a restaurant, a foreigner nonetheless who likely doesn't know the language, and asks for something the restaurant doesn't serve. Restaurant says "Sorry, we don't serve that - these are the choices".
How the fuck is that news anywhere? The only reason it could possibly be interesting is the desire to make fun of the dirty Chinese peasants who don't know how to eat right. If that isn't food snobbery, then nothing is.
I am not talking about making fun of people who don't want to eat a particular food.
I think that is *exactly* what you are doing.
Quote
I am talking about people who go to places that are specialised to do something, and demand the exact opposite.
So what you are really mocking is their stupidity for not knowing what kind of food was served at some particular restaurant?
And given the quality of journalism that thinks "Peasant tourists don't want to eat raw fish at famous raw fish restaurant" is "headline news", I suspect that the actual reporting is likely total bulllshit anyway.
Quote
How about I go to Hooters and make a fuss about the clothes of the waitresses, because I think they all should be covered from top to bottom?
Go right ahead.
Quote
If the news report that, is that snobbery now?
It is pretty shitty journalism at least. And if people think someone finding the way waitresses dress at Hooters objectionable is some kind of newsworthy event, and everyone gets a good life at the provincial tool who found themselves in Hooters, then yeah, that is pretty snobbish.
Someone goes into Hooters not knowing the waitresses dress that way, and is offended. So what?
Yeah, they probably should not go to Hooters then, but clearly they did not know before hand, so why is that interesting, unless you just like to feel superior?
Quote
Going to a place that does the best raw fish in the world, and demand cooked fish? Going to a place with the best wine list, and demand the wine be boiled to make them alcohol free? You don't see the irony?
I don't see the "headline news story" without their being some pretty serious snobbery about it.
Some tourist did not know that Jiro is all about raw fish. So what?
*I* didn't know that before this back and forth, and I really like sushi.
Quote from: alfred russel on April 21, 2017, 09:23:14 AM
Quote from: Berkut on April 21, 2017, 08:46:21 AM
Yes, I am sure what made Japanese headlines had nothing to do with food snobbery or mocking the peasants for not liking things the way the food snobs insist they must be enjoyed. Because that is clearly headline making news otherwise. "Tourist asks for food restaurant does serve! Details at 11!!!"
If some places only serve their sushi raw, then yes, one should probably avoid those places if one only wants cooked fish. Mocking people for doing so, however, says more about the douchebags who think it is mock worthy than the people who (gasp!) want their food the way they like, and may not be aware that some particular restaurant specifically specializes in food they do NOT like.
But none of this is my point, which is far more a general observation that there is nothing about "sushi" in general that demands that it be only served with raw fish. It is perfectly reasonable to find sushi to be something very enjoyable to eat while at the same time NOT liking raw fish. And that is nothing like saying you want cooked steak tartare, which simply doesn't make sense at all.
Finally, I don't know what a "traditional" sushi place operates like, since I've been in a huge number of sushi places that operate in radically different manners. Is "traditional" more code for "food served the way food snobs think it ought to be served"?
I agree with Mono. Basic standards aren't food snobbery. If someone wants sushi with cooked tuna or salmon, he is a savage. That isn't food snobbery--that is just the way things are. It is like going into a steak restaurant and ordering a well done steak and eating it with lots of ketchup. Sure there are lots of places that will accommodate such requests, but those that care how their food is consumed and expect more from their customers than the ability to pay a bill will not, and in all cases the customers deserve to be mocked.
Thanks for proving my point so eloquently, in a completely snobbish, douchebaggery way that only your can pull off.
Although people who cook steak well done are in fact uncouth peasants deserving of mockery.
Berkut goes to kosher delis and just dares them to serve him Jew food. Just try me, Stein.
Quote from: Berkut on April 21, 2017, 09:00:34 AM
Are you reading my posts at all?
Eh, about a third of the time.
Quote from: CountDeMoney on April 21, 2017, 09:28:28 AM
Berkut goes to kosher delis and just dares them to serve him Jew food. Just try me, Stein.
Jew food is mostly delicious. Mostly.
I don't think there are any Jewish delis in Rochester that I am aware of, but there were some great ones down by my sisters place in Manhattan...
Quote from: Berkut on April 21, 2017, 09:30:18 AM
Quote from: CountDeMoney on April 21, 2017, 09:28:28 AM
Berkut goes to kosher delis and just dares them to serve him Jew food. Just try me, Stein.
Jew food is mostly delicious. Mostly.
I don't think there are any Jewish delis in Rochester that I am aware of, but there were some great ones down by my sisters place in Manhattan...
The Jewish delis I went to in Manhattan seemed locked in some sort of Darwinian struggle to see who could produce the largest sandwich in existence. The amount of food in one of those things could feed a Somalian village for a week! :D
Quote from: Berkut on April 21, 2017, 09:25:15 AM
Quote from: Monoriu on April 21, 2017, 09:17:30 AM
Quote from: Berkut on April 21, 2017, 08:50:44 AM
Quote from: Monoriu on April 21, 2017, 08:26:22 AM
You walk into this place, the chef asks you if you want set A, B, or C. You reply that you want none of the above, because you want all the fish and shellfish be cooked. Chef says I can't do it, and throws you out. That's not food snobbery. That's demanding cooked beef tartare.
And no, that is demanding something from a restaurant they don't serve. It is not demanding something from a restaurant that they could not serve, because by definition the dish itself cannot actually exist in any restaurant.
It is not food snobbery, but making fun of someone who doesn't want to eat some particular food is certainly food snobbery. I don't fault the restaurant for not giving them what they want, but the idea that that is headlines worthy news just shows that people who find such headlines worthy are douchebags.
Someone goes into a restaurant, a foreigner nonetheless who likely doesn't know the language, and asks for something the restaurant doesn't serve. Restaurant says "Sorry, we don't serve that - these are the choices".
How the fuck is that news anywhere? The only reason it could possibly be interesting is the desire to make fun of the dirty Chinese peasants who don't know how to eat right. If that isn't food snobbery, then nothing is.
I am not talking about making fun of people who don't want to eat a particular food.
I think that is *exactly* what you are doing.
Quote
I am talking about people who go to places that are specialised to do something, and demand the exact opposite.
So what you are really mocking is their stupidity for not knowing what kind of food was served at some particular restaurant?
And given the quality of journalism that thinks "Peasant tourists don't want to eat raw fish at famous raw fish restaurant" is "headline news", I suspect that the actual reporting is likely total bulllshit anyway.
Quote
How about I go to Hooters and make a fuss about the clothes of the waitresses, because I think they all should be covered from top to bottom?
Go right ahead.
Quote
If the news report that, is that snobbery now?
It is pretty shitty journalism at least. And if people think someone finding the way waitresses dress at Hooters objectionable is some kind of newsworthy event, and everyone gets a good life at the provincial tool who found themselves in Hooters, then yeah, that is pretty snobbish.
Someone goes into Hooters not knowing the waitresses dress that way, and is offended. So what?
Yeah, they probably should not go to Hooters then, but clearly they did not know before hand, so why is that interesting, unless you just like to feel superior?
Quote
Going to a place that does the best raw fish in the world, and demand cooked fish? Going to a place with the best wine list, and demand the wine be boiled to make them alcohol free? You don't see the irony?
I don't see the "headline news story" without their being some pretty serious snobbery about it.
Some tourist did not know that Jiro is all about raw fish. So what?
*I* didn't know that before this back and forth, and I really like sushi.
Look, that traditional sushi is mostly about raw fish and shellfish must be regarded as common knowledge. It isn't like traditional sushi is such a rare beast.
Jiro doesn't serve walk-in customers. People need to book a few months in advance. If you've booked Jiro, you know what you've booked.
Quote from: Monoriu on April 21, 2017, 10:19:48 AM
Look, that traditional sushi is mostly about raw fish and shellfish must be regarded as common knowledge. It isn't like traditional sushi is such a rare beast.
Jiro doesn't serve walk-in customers. People need to book a few months in advance. If you've booked Jiro, you know what you've booked.
Now you are changing the story though - originally it was just some tourists who went there, and you didn't say they had reservations booked months in advance.
It is like you are leaving out critical information it seem more general, rather than about some particular dumbass.
Obviously, if they made reservations, and new exactly what they were getting into, they are dumbasses. But that isn't really that interesting, since it doesn't say anything about Chinese people in general, just that there is some particular dumbass in the world.
Is this the story in question?
http://www.eater.com/2014/5/12/6225955/internet-vilifies-student-for-ordering-cooked-sushi-at-sukiyabashi
If so, it doesn't much match with what you said originally. The diner was not a tourist, but rather a student living in Japan. And she sounds like a typical college brat, rather than a stereotypical chinese tourist.
In any case, she is certainly a dumbass, so you were right about that part of it at least.
Quote from: Berkut on April 21, 2017, 10:25:54 AM
Is this the story in question?
http://www.eater.com/2014/5/12/6225955/internet-vilifies-student-for-ordering-cooked-sushi-at-sukiyabashi
If so, it doesn't much match with what you said originally. The diner was not a tourist, but rather a student living in Japan. And she sounds like a typical college brat, rather than a stereotypical chinese tourist.
In any case, she is certainly a dumbass, so you were right about that part of it at least.
Did I say anything about a 'tourist'? I said Chinese don't like raw stuff. Did I use the word tourist?
Found it. I did :P
Quote from: CountDeMoney on April 21, 2017, 09:28:28 AM
Berkut goes to kosher delis and just dares them to serve him Jew food. Just try me, Stein.
I wouldn't eat anything that Jill Stein cooks.
Quote from: Malthus on April 21, 2017, 10:16:03 AM
The Jewish delis I went to in Manhattan seemed locked in some sort of Darwinian struggle to see who could produce the largest sandwich in existence. The amount of food in one of those things could feed a Somalian village for a week! :D
Don't talk such nonsense bubbale. Look at you - thin like a rail! A wind could knock you over. You need to eat more. Finish up your sandwich - here, just put on a little more mustard and cole slaw.
The best meal is sushi cooked in a toaster, served in a gas station with a glass of California "Champagne". Coming soon to Jack in the Box.
Nonsense. Jack doesn't serve alcohol.
Quote from: The Minsky Moment on April 21, 2017, 12:18:18 PM
The best meal is sushi cooked in a toaster, served in a gas station with a glass of California "Champagne". Coming soon to Jack in the Box.
Korbel? Ugh
Quote from: Berkut on April 21, 2017, 07:27:05 AM
Wegmans has very good sushi,
They mark it very clearly for our peasant American tastes. Raw stuff has a red label, cooked has...green I think? and blue has no fish at all.
You're already gone down a pretty dark path when you're buying sushi from a supermarket.
Quote from: OttoVonBismarck on April 21, 2017, 02:18:27 PM
Quote from: Berkut on April 21, 2017, 07:27:05 AM
Wegmans has very good sushi,
They mark it very clearly for our peasant American tastes. Raw stuff has a red label, cooked has...green I think? and blue has no fish at all.
You're already gone down a pretty dark path when you're buying sushi from a supermarket.
Wegmans is not just some supermarket.
Quote from: OttoVonBismarck on April 21, 2017, 02:18:27 PM
Quote from: Berkut on April 21, 2017, 07:27:05 AM
Wegmans has very good sushi,
They mark it very clearly for our peasant American tastes. Raw stuff has a red label, cooked has...green I think? and blue has no fish at all.
You're already gone down a pretty dark path when you're buying sushi from a supermarket.
Pardon me! Would you have any Grey Poupon?
Quote from: Berkut on April 21, 2017, 02:33:09 PM
Quote from: OttoVonBismarck on April 21, 2017, 02:18:27 PM
Quote from: Berkut on April 21, 2017, 07:27:05 AM
Wegmans has very good sushi,
They mark it very clearly for our peasant American tastes. Raw stuff has a red label, cooked has...green I think? and blue has no fish at all.
You're already gone down a pretty dark path when you're buying sushi from a supermarket.
Wegmans is not just some supermarket.
supermarket snob <_<
:P
Guilty!
No need to pay 20 bucks for fucking California roll. Avocado is avocado.
Agree that supermarket tuna is pretty rough sledding.
Quote from: Admiral Yi on April 21, 2017, 02:45:07 PM
No need to pay 20 bucks for fucking California roll. Avocado is avocado.
Agree that supermarket tuna is pretty rough sledding.
Wegmans isn't.
Wegmans is fucking awesome. It is as good as sushi gets
1) In Rochester NY, and
2) That isn't made to order while you wait.
Quote from: Berkut on April 21, 2017, 02:47:24 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on April 21, 2017, 02:45:07 PM
No need to pay 20 bucks for fucking California roll. Avocado is avocado.
Agree that supermarket tuna is pretty rough sledding.
Wegmans isn't.
Wegmans is fucking awesome. It is as good as sushi gets
1) In Rochester NY, and
2) That isn't made to order while you wait.
have you considered that maybe you don't actually like sushi? :D
Shush, I do like sushi. You take what you can get.
I mostly used to it when traveling though, since my family is a bunch of peasants and won't eat it, so I had it when travelling for business. Which was nice, since it meant someone else was paying for it. And really good sushi is really damn expensive.
it really can be. Sushi is a lot like pizza. Ok sushi is ok, but great sushi is great (though it's easier to have bad sushi). I prefer sashimi though, or at least a meal with a larger portion of sashimi.
were I used to work we used to go often for sushi as there was a pretty good place nearby that was all you can eat. One of my coworkers would say she loved sushi and then only eat battered shrimp and the meat dishes :lol:
Quote from: HVC on April 21, 2017, 02:56:51 PM
it really can be. Sushi is a lot like pizza. Ok sushi is ok, but great sushi is great (though it's easier to have bad sushi). I prefer sashimi though, or at least a meal with a larger portion of sashimi.
I would say the big difference would be that bad pizza is still pretty good.
Bad sushi is a night spent with food poisoning.
Quote
were I used to work we used to go often for sushi as there was a pretty good place nearby that was all you can eat. One of my coworkers would say she loved sushi and then only eat battered shrimp and the meat dishes :lol:
Oh yeah. You see that plenty.
My daughter "loves" sushi, but will only eat stuff without any fish in it, which isn't really sushi per se, but then, the thing she likes about it you can't get in some other dish, so whatever. And she will at least try some stuff with cooked salmon or tuna, so I am taking it slow with her...
I typically have sushi once a week.
Quote from: Berkut on April 21, 2017, 02:33:09 PM
Quote from: OttoVonBismarck on April 21, 2017, 02:18:27 PM
Quote from: Berkut on April 21, 2017, 07:27:05 AM
Wegmans has very good sushi,
They mark it very clearly for our peasant American tastes. Raw stuff has a red label, cooked has...green I think? and blue has no fish at all.
You're already gone down a pretty dark path when you're buying sushi from a supermarket.
Wegmans is not just some supermarket.
We have them in VA too--and I agree, they're a supermarket where they mark everything up 30% and push overpriced crap at you from "boutique" market stalls or whatever fuck they use. I've been in one once, and I'll stick to Food Lion.
Quote from: The Brain on April 21, 2017, 02:34:57 PM
Quote from: OttoVonBismarck on April 21, 2017, 02:18:27 PM
Quote from: Berkut on April 21, 2017, 07:27:05 AM
Wegmans has very good sushi,
They mark it very clearly for our peasant American tastes. Raw stuff has a red label, cooked has...green I think? and blue has no fish at all.
You're already gone down a pretty dark path when you're buying sushi from a supermarket.
Pardon me! Would you have any Grey Poupon?
:huh: But of course. :bowler:
The thing with sushi is that the temperature of the food is critical. One of the reasons traditional sushi places pretty much require guests to sit in a bar right in front of the chef is so that the customer can eat it within a minute of leaving the chef's hands. The sushi chefs hate customers who chat and forget the sushi in front of them. The problem with supermarket sushi is that, for health safety reasons, it needs to be chilled. Once it is chilled, it is gone.
I can understand a restaurant demanding that customers eat its food a certain way, especially ones with a name to protect. If some idiot goes to a fancy steakhouse, orders a well-done steak with A1 sauce, and then tells other people that this restaurant was alright but nothing special, the brand name takes a hit. And sometimes people really don't know what's good for them, you see that every time someone talks about liking deep dish pizza or supermarket sushi.
Quote from: OttoVonBismarck on April 21, 2017, 03:15:35 PM
Quote from: Berkut on April 21, 2017, 02:33:09 PM
Wegmans is not just some supermarket.
We have them in VA too--and I agree, they're a supermarket where they mark everything up 30% and push overpriced crap at you from "boutique" market stalls or whatever fuck they use. I've been in one once, and I'll stick to Food Lion.
How positively common of you, Otto. Whatever will the members of Club Antebellum think?
Its no Jungle Jim's.
Quote from: DGuller on April 21, 2017, 05:35:11 PM
I can understand a restaurant demanding that customers eat its food a certain way, especially ones with a name to protect. If some idiot goes to a fancy steakhouse, orders a well-done steak with A1 sauce, and then tells other people that this restaurant was alright but nothing special, the brand name takes a hit. And sometimes people really don't know what's good for them, you see that every time someone talks about liking deep dish pizza or supermarket sushi.
Doh
Meanwhile...
http://neoskosmos.com/news/en/Greek-Orthodox-Bishop-calls-on-Erdogan-to-denounce-Islam-and-be-baptised
QuoteGreek Orthodox Bishop, Metropolit Seraphim of Piraeus has caused controversy by urging Turkish President Recep Tayyip Erdogan to convert to Orthodoxy with Russian President Vladimir Putin as his godfather. And no, it's not a joke.
In a 37-page letter to Erdogan written in Greek, Metropolit Seraphim asks the Turkish leader to denounce his Islamic faith and be baptised in the Ecumenical Patriarchate of Constantinople.
"If you want to save yourself and your family you should convert to Greek Orthodox Church, the only real faith," Seraphim writes, reports Keep Talking Greece.
"We propose and we advise you to come to the arms of the Greek Orthodox Church before the end of your life on earth.
"Otherwise, you will unfortunately find yourself, your family and your people in the same place where Allah, Muhammad and his followers are, ie. in the place of suffering, eternal and unending hell."
He calls on Erdogan to "repent, cry, be humble and believe in Christ," and claims that "the Holy Trinity of God will open the arms for you".
If Erdogan is to heed the Metropolit's advice, he says that the Orthodox faithful on earth and in heaven will rejoice and "the angels in heaven after your enter the true Church!"
In the extensive letter, the Bishop also analyses Greece's 400 years under Ottoman rule, the Treaty of Lausanne, Turkey's recent history and the country's efforts to join the European Union.
Despite concluding his letter with "honour, respect and honest brother love", it contains a number of remarks in which he insults the Koran, the Prophet Muhammad, and describes Islam as a sect rather than a religion.
To read the letter in full, visit the Holy Metropolis of Piraeus' official website http://www.imp.gr/
:lmfao:
Best part is having Putin as godfather.
Crackdown on Christians coming in 5, 4, 3, 2, ....
:yeahright: I don't think they do that kind of thing in Turkey.
Why not, we have. Putin is the Godfather now.
Quote from: CountDeMoney on April 21, 2017, 07:09:54 PM
Quote from: OttoVonBismarck on April 21, 2017, 03:15:35 PM
Quote from: Berkut on April 21, 2017, 02:33:09 PM
Wegmans is not just some supermarket.
We have them in VA too--and I agree, they're a supermarket where they mark everything up 30% and push overpriced crap at you from "boutique" market stalls or whatever fuck they use. I've been in one once, and I'll stick to Food Lion.
How positively common of you, Otto. Whatever will the members of Club Antebellum think?
Don't get me wrong, I'm no man of the people; but let's also be serious--groceries are a commodity. These froo froo upscale supermarkets are a scam.
Quote'WE NEED GERMANY,' SAYS TURKISH MINISTER TO BEMUSEMENT FROM GERMAN POLITICIANS
Turkey has called on Germany for help in reviving its economy, following months of tension between the two countries.
Relations between Ankara and Berlin became particularly strained after Turkish President Recep Tayyip Erdoğan accused German Chancellor Angela Merkel of adopting "Nazi measures" in March over restrictions on campaigning for a referendum on Turkey moving away from the parliamentary system. German authorities canceled rallies designed to woo Turkish voters ahead of the referendum on April 16.
Merkel criticized Erdoğan for his "unjustifiable" and "misplaced" comments which "broke every taboo, without consideration for the suffering of those who were persecuted and murdered [by the Nazis]." She threatened to bar Turkish ministers from visiting Germany if they did not comply with the country's laws.
But in comments widely discussed in German media, Turkey's Deputy Minister Prime Minister Mehmet Şimşek said it is time for the two countries to set aside their differences.
"I think that the time must come to return to normality in our relations," Şimşek told German newspaper Bild Monday, adding that Turkey was reliant on Germany for economic success. Germany is Turkey's most important trading partner, with trade between the two countries amounting to €37 billion in 2015.
Şimşek said that finance ministers of the G20 countries had discussed how to get the Turkish economy back on its feet at a meeting in Washington D.C. last week.
"We need Germany for that," he told Bild.
Germany and Turkey are also tied together by a European Union deal to share responsibility for the refugee crisis. The deal, which came into force in March 2016 and was negotiated in exchange for economic aid and visa-free travel opportunities for Turkish citizens within the Schengen zone, has drastically stemmed the flow of refugees into Europe.
Şimşek's plea for German support was met with skepticism in the German parliament, according to German newspaper Tagesspiegel . MP Özcan Mutlu, of Germany's Green Party, said Şimşek showed "great audacity by pretending that nothing has happened," referring to the imprisonment of German-Turkish journalist Deniz Yücel in Istanbul and the fact that Turkey has denied entry to 17 German citizens in the past few years.
http://www.newsweek.com/turkey-germany-need-erdogan-economic-help-589402
:lol: Fuck off.
Should have thought that before going full retard.
Should the thread be retitled something along the lines of "One party rule in Turkey" ?
Quote from: mongers on April 25, 2017, 03:50:29 PM
Should the thread be retitled something along the lines of "One party rule in Turkey" ?
Fast and the Furious: Authoritarian Drift
The Istanbul Bourse is up 760% since Erdogan took office.
Quote from: Admiral Yi on April 25, 2017, 07:23:24 PM
The Istanbul Bourse is up 760% since Erdogan took office.
Ed Anger's Bourse is also probably up 760%.
Quote from: Tonitrus on April 25, 2017, 10:16:16 PM
Ed Anger's Bourse is also probably up 760%.
I don't get it. :(
Quote from: Admiral Yi on April 25, 2017, 07:23:24 PM
The Istanbul Bourse is up 760% since Erdogan took office.
The number of incarcerated journalists and opposition politicians is probably up even more.
Quote from: Admiral Yi on April 25, 2017, 07:23:24 PM
The Istanbul Bourse is up 760% since Erdogan took office.
Real or nominal?
12th March 2003, you would get 1,647,003 Turkish Lira per US dollar. They renominated in 2005, 1,000,000:1, so these days this would be 1.64 TRY to the USD. The current rate is about 3.58, so the TRY is now worth about 45.8% as much compared to the dollar. Multiply that with the 760% gain and you have about 350% gain.
Why is that pertinent Yi? I don't get it.
I am not even sure how that compares to other stockmarkets over the same period.
Quote from: Zoupa on April 26, 2017, 02:02:29 PM
Why is that pertinent Yi? I don't get it.
It's from an Economist article about the ambiguous relationship between democracy and investment. I thought it was a fun factoid.
Erdogan's next target: The vile terrorists at Wikipedia.
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-39754909 (http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-39754909)
But wait, there's more!
Dating shows are out and oh, by the way, 4,000 government employees (http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-39759050)[/b]
The worse thing about all this isn't what it's doing to Turkey, it's the ideas it's giving to Trump.
Quote from: Ed Anger on April 25, 2017, 07:20:43 PM
Quote from: mongers on April 25, 2017, 03:50:29 PM
Should the thread be retitled something along the lines of "One party rule in Turkey" ?
Fast and the Furious: Authoritarian Drift
Wasted with this group of cretins and dullards. WASTED!
boo fucking hoo
Quote from: Ed Anger on April 29, 2017, 08:57:13 PM
You'll miss me when I'm dead.
I'll print out your joke and read it again whenever i do.
Locking up all those pilots just drops the chance of getting to watch them strafe the deck at 800 feet on CNN again.
http://www.reuters.com/article/us-turkey-eu-erdogan-idUSKBN17Y19J
QuoteErdogan says Turkey has nothing to discuss with EU unless new accession chapters opened
President Tayyip Erdogan said on Tuesday the European Union must open new chapters in Turkey's accession process, otherwise Ankara had nothing to discuss with the bloc and would say "goodbye".
His comments came after European Commissioner Johannes Hahn, who oversees EU membership bids, told Reuters Turkey under Erdogan had turned its back on joining the bloc.
"From now on there is no option other than opening the chapters you have not yet opened. If you do not open (them), goodbye," Erdogan said at a ceremony to mark his return to the ruling AK Party.
http://www.reuters.com/article/us-turkey-eu-idUSKBN17Y0U0
QuoteTurkey's EU dream is over, for now, top official says
Turkey under President Tayyip Erdogan has turned its back on joining the European Union, at least for now, the bloc's top official dealing with Ankara said, offering economic cooperation instead if both sides can restore friendly ties.
After years of stalemate on Turkey's bid to join the world's biggest trading bloc, EU governments say the process is dead, citing Erdogan's crackdown on dissidents, his 'Nazi' jibes at Germany and a referendum giving him sweeping new powers that a rights group says lack checks and balances.
"Everybody's clear that, currently at least, Turkey is moving away from a European perspective," European Commissioner Johannes Hahn, who oversees EU membership bids, told Reuters.
"The focus of our relationship has to be something else," he said in an interview after EU foreign ministers met in Malta and where France and Germany led efforts to consider a new deal with Ankara based on trade and security ties.
"We have to see what could be done in the future, to see if we can restart some kind of cooperation," Hahn said on Saturday, saying that he had not had meetings on the economy with NATO-member Turkey since January last year, normally a fixture of accession talks.
The EU process is not formally frozen, but EU lawmakers called last week for a formal halt to talks, with some saying Turkey no longer met the democratic criteria to be considered a candidate, let alone a full member, for the EU.
Erdogan told Reuters in an interview last week that Turkey would not wait at Europe's door forever and would walk away from accession talks if what he said was rising Islamophobia and hostility from some member states persist.
Launched in 2005 after decades of seeking the formal start of an EU membership bid, negotiations dovetailed with Erdogan's first economic reforms in power as prime minister from 2003.
EU officials say Turkish reforms to enter the EU brought stability and attracted foreign investment, making Turkey an important emerging economy with high-speed trains crossing the strategically-located country bridging Europe and Asia.
That economic success remains part of Erdogan's popularity with the pious Turkish poor, who saw living standards rise, although Hahn noted the worsening state of Turkey's economy now.
The European Union is Turkey's biggest foreign investor and biggest trading partner, while Turkey shares a border with Iraq, Syria and with Russia in the Black Sea.
WHO'S TO BLAME?
Hahn said he would present a report by early next year to EU governments to clarify Turkey's status. The lack of urgency shows the reluctance of EU states to upset Ankara, given that they rely on Turkey to keep migrants from coming to Europe, diplomats said.
But Hahn said that limits on with press freedoms, mass jailing and shrinking civil rights made it almost impossible at the present time for Turkey to meet EU joining criteria.
Hahn said EU rules "were not negotiable" and the bloc would not "decouple the human rights situation" from discussions.
"There is no version of Turkish democracy. There is only democracy. Turkish people have the same rights to live in freedom as Europeans do," said Hahn, whose delegation in Turkey has visited dissidents in prison.
A slim majority of 51.4 percent of Turkish voters voted in April to grant the president sweeping new powers, the biggest overhaul of the country's politics since the founding of the modern republic, amid opposition accusations of vote fraud.
Asked if the European Union was partly responsible for Turkey's turn towards a more centralized system, Hahn said the drive to change had come from inside the country.
"Nobody can claim to be blameless, but it is always the sovereign decision of a country (to decide policy) ... If you have a certain vision in mind, it is difficult to intervene in a meaningful way," Hahn said.
"All these reform efforts are not done for the European Union but for the sake of (Turkish) citizens," Hahn said, referring to the process that helped transform former communist countries in central and eastern Europe into thriving market democracies as they sought to join the European Union.
"This is not about serving the Europeans," he said.
At least the feeling is mutual :)
Would have been nice if Turkey had developed into a secular, liberal republic over the last 15-20 years and then they could have become a member. Alas, they developed in a completely different direction and are now more or less a dictatorship that scorns European values, so there is no value in any further talks with them.
Quote from: Zanza on May 02, 2017, 12:50:11 PM
Would have been nice if Turkey had developed into a secular, liberal republic over the last 15-20 years and then they could have become a member. Alas, they developed in a completely different direction and are now more or less a dictatorship that scorns European values, so there is no value in any further talks with them.
Yeah, having any kind of discussion with today's Turkey about them in the EU would say a lot more about the EU than it would about Turkey.
Quote from: Berkut on May 02, 2017, 02:43:07 PM
Quote from: Zanza on May 02, 2017, 12:50:11 PM
Would have been nice if Turkey had developed into a secular, liberal republic over the last 15-20 years and then they could have become a member. Alas, they developed in a completely different direction and are now more or less a dictatorship that scorns European values, so there is no value in any further talks with them.
Yeah, having any kind of discussion with today's Turkey about them in the EU would say a lot more about the EU than it would about Turkey.
The only reason why the negotiations are still officially going on is that no one wants to be blamed for ending them. This is despite no progress in the last 11 years and just one out of 33 chapters (namely Science & Research) of the EU acquis communitaire being concluded in the offcial negotiation period that started more than 12 years ago. The lower house of the EU, the parliament, has already voted to stop the negotiations, but the upper house, the Council, balks at it. Erdogan also isn't interested at the moment, because he can use the stalled talks for domestic points.
EU was never going to let turkey in. Would have been nice if the carrot had kept turkey on the democratic side, though.
I suggest a new working definition of Europe that draws the border at the limit of Ottoman conquest.
Quote from: Admiral Yi on May 02, 2017, 03:29:28 PM
I suggest a new working definition of Europe that draws the border at the limit of Ottoman conquest.
Too late. :(
Quote from: Admiral Yi on May 02, 2017, 03:29:28 PM
I suggest a new working definition of Europe that draws the border at the limit of Ottoman Carolingian conquest.
Fixed that for you. :P
EDIT: Nah, the eastern expansion of the EU is a huge success despite assclowns like Orban or Kaczynski.
Quote from: Zanza on May 02, 2017, 04:12:58 PM
EDIT: Nah, the eastern expansion of the EU is a huge success despite assclowns like Orban or Kaczynski.
Greece, failure. Hungary, failure. Rumania, debatable.
Czechia, inside the limits.
It seems to me that the Eastern Expansion drove the UK out though.
It was us or Warsaw Pact Mark II. The digestion is being harder than foreseen, but I think on the long term it will be fine.
Electors in western european nations are being more problematic right now, if you ask me.
Quote from: Admiral Yi on May 02, 2017, 04:18:26 PM
Quote from: Zanza on May 02, 2017, 04:12:58 PM
EDIT: Nah, the eastern expansion of the EU is a huge success despite assclowns like Orban or Kaczynski.
Greece, failure. Hungary, failure. Rumania, debatable.
Czechia, inside the limits.
Romania is actually rather encouraging as it seems to have a rather strong civil movement to reduce government corruption and improve their democracy.
The EU enlargements in 2004 and 2007 included Poland (great economic success, recently relapsed on societal progress), three Baltic states (all good economic development, but demographic collapse), Czechia and Slovakia (both doing well although not too enthusiastic about further integration), Hungary (well...), Slovenia (doing very well economically and I think ok politically), Bulgaria (not so great, corruption), Romania (okayish). Cyprus and Malta were Western states even before, but Cyprus should probably not have been admitted without a solution to the North Cyprus question. That was a mistake.
Greece has been a member since sometime in the 1980s and did fairly well, especially with democracy compared to their earlier military junta, until they joined the Euro - which as we all know was a massive mistake.
Quote from: Valmy on May 02, 2017, 04:21:58 PM
It seems to me that the Eastern Expansion drove the UK out though.
And here I thought it was due to internal differences in the Tory party that were mismanaged by David Cameron.
Quote from: Admiral Yi on May 02, 2017, 04:18:26 PM
Quote from: Zanza on May 02, 2017, 04:12:58 PM
EDIT: Nah, the eastern expansion of the EU is a huge success despite assclowns like Orban or Kaczynski.
Greece, failure. Hungary, failure. Rumania, debatable.
Czechia, inside the limits.
Is Czechia becoming a thing?
I think I only ever hear Czech Republic in real life.
Quote from: Zanza on May 02, 2017, 04:28:43 PM
Romania is actually rather encouraging as it seems to have a rather strong civil movement to reduce government corruption and improve their democracy.
The EU enlargements in 2004 and 2007 included Poland (great economic success, recently relapsed on societal progress), three Baltic states (all good economic development, but demographic collapse), Czechia and Slovakia (both doing well although not too enthusiastic about further integration), Hungary (well...), Slovenia (doing very well economically and I think ok politically), Bulgaria (not so great, corruption), Romania (okayish). Cyprus and Malta were Western states even before, but Cyprus should probably not have been admitted without a solution to the North Cyprus question. That was a mistake.
Greece has been a member since sometime in the 1980s and did fairly well, especially with democracy compared to their earlier military junta, until they joined the Euro - which as we all know was a massive mistake.
You're arguing about the pros and cons of most recent expansion, which is different than my Ottoman Empire = shit thesis.
Romania was only arguably a part of the Ottoman conquest.
Turkey should just establish a constitutional monarchy with one of the surviving Osman descendants. Would be cool!!!
Quote from: Zanza on May 02, 2017, 12:50:11 PM
Would have been nice if Turkey had developed into a secular, liberal republic over the last 15-20 years and then they could have become a member. Alas, they developed in a completely different direction and are now more or less a dictatorship that scorns European values, so there is no value in any further talks with them.
While that's true it absolves the EU side of Sarkozyite asshollery at a time when it looked like things could still go in the right direction in Turkey.
Quote from: Zanza on May 02, 2017, 04:29:24 PM
Quote from: Valmy on May 02, 2017, 04:21:58 PM
It seems to me that the Eastern Expansion drove the UK out though.
And here I thought it was due to internal differences in the Tory party that were mismanaged by David Cameron.
I guess I found Tamas' thesis that it came from hatred for Eastern European Immigrants convincing.
Quote from: Admiral Yi on May 02, 2017, 04:18:26 PM
Quote from: Zanza on May 02, 2017, 04:12:58 PM
EDIT: Nah, the eastern expansion of the EU is a huge success despite assclowns like Orban or Kaczynski.
Greece, failure. Hungary, failure. Rumania, debatable.
Czechia, inside the limits.
Carolingians never ruled the Czechs!
Also, Baltics and Scandis are fine. And maybe even Spain.
Quote from: Solmyr on May 02, 2017, 06:13:19 PM
Carolingians never ruled the Czechs!
Also, Baltics and Scandis are fine. And maybe even Spain.
You didn't read the thread, did you? :(
Quote from: Solmyr on May 02, 2017, 06:13:19 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on May 02, 2017, 04:18:26 PM
Quote from: Zanza on May 02, 2017, 04:12:58 PM
EDIT: Nah, the eastern expansion of the EU is a huge success despite assclowns like Orban or Kaczynski.
Greece, failure. Hungary, failure. Rumania, debatable.
Czechia, inside the limits.
Carolingians never ruled the Czechs!
Also, Baltics and Scandis are fine. And maybe even Spain.
None of those places were OMG can I be: Ottoman Empire though.
Quote from: Solmyr on May 02, 2017, 06:13:19 PM
Carolingians never ruled the Czechs!
Samo - Frankish according to legend - ruled over the Czechs, Moravians, Wends. But NOT the Avars.
Quote from: Barrister on May 02, 2017, 04:30:51 PM
Is Czechia becoming a thing?
I think I only ever hear Czech Republic in real life.
This sounded fishy, so I asked a friend in the Czech Republic, and this is what she just sent me back:
QuoteWell, neither. In Czech is something completely different 😂 But official sources will say Czech republic, Czechia or cesko is a bit problematic because it doesn't include Moravia and Silesia. [emphasis mine] Kind of like the difference between saying England and UK
Why would Czechia not also refer to Moravia? Weird.
They said they went with Czechia to make it easier on tourism branding.
Quote from: garbon on May 04, 2017, 01:55:44 PM
They said they went with Czechia to make it easier on tourism branding.
Apparently, it's not particularly popular in the country itself. Said Czech friend said she and pretty much everyone she knows
hates the term.
It's hard for an English speaker to say.
Quote from: Valmy on May 04, 2017, 01:53:48 PM
Why would Czechia not also refer to Moravia? Weird.
Because Czechia means Bohemia and Bohemia and Moravia are different, I guess.
How did Bohemia become Czechia, anyone know? Or alternatively, if Bohemians always called themselves Czechs, where and why did Bohemia come in?
Quote from: Valmy on May 04, 2017, 01:53:48 PM
Why would Czechia not also refer to Moravia? Weird.
Yeah. I understood that was the complaint against using Bohemia, but don't see why Czech/Czechia would be caught up.
SOme quick googling suggests that no, Czechia is not really becoming a thing.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/oct/25/nobody-calls-it-czechia-czech-republic-new-fails-catch-on
Quote from: Admiral Yi on May 04, 2017, 01:58:06 PM
Quote from: Valmy on May 04, 2017, 01:53:48 PM
Why would Czechia not also refer to Moravia? Weird.
Because Czechia means Bohemia and Bohemia and Moravia are different, I guess.
How did Bohemia become Czechia, anyone know? Or alternatively, if Bohemians always called themselves Czechs, where and why did Bohemia come in?
Moravians are also Czechs though.
Quote from: Valmy on May 04, 2017, 01:59:03 PM
Moravians are also Czechs though.
Eh, pretty sure Czechs and Moravians are separate people/nationalities/ethnicities.
Quote from: Admiral Yi on May 04, 2017, 02:01:18 PM
Quote from: Valmy on May 04, 2017, 01:59:03 PM
Moravians are also Czechs though.
Eh, pretty sure Czechs and Moravians are separate people/nationalities/ethnicities.
Not according to the Moravians I know.
But even if this is true why would 'The Czech Republic' not be problematic but 'Czechia' is?
As long as the pron hotties keep coming, they can call themselves Ken for all I care.
Quote from: CountDeMoney on May 04, 2017, 02:07:41 PM
As long as the pron hotties keep coming, they can call themselves Ken for all I care.
They call their own country Ceska, thank you very much.
This is about what do we anglos call them.
Quote from: Admiral Yi on May 04, 2017, 01:58:06 PM
Quote from: Valmy on May 04, 2017, 01:53:48 PM
Why would Czechia not also refer to Moravia? Weird.
Because Czechia means Bohemia and Bohemia and Moravia are different, I guess.
How did Bohemia become Czechia, anyone know? Or alternatively, if Bohemians always called themselves Czechs, where and why did Bohemia come in?
Bohemia is named after a Celtic tribe, the Boii. Bavaria is also named after them. Boii moved out, replaced by Germanic tribes then Slavs.
Quote from: Duque de Bragança on May 04, 2017, 02:10:37 PM
Bohemia is named after a Celtic tribe, the Boii. Bavaria is also named after them. Boii moved out, replaced by Germanic tribes then Slavs.
Cool. Thanks.
Ok so what is the difference between Czechia and Ceska? They seem like the same thing except one has an anglicized spelling.
Quote from: Duque de Bragança on May 04, 2017, 02:10:37 PM
Bohemia is named after a Celtic tribe, the Boii. Bavaria is also named after them. Boii moved out, replaced by Germanic tribes then Slavs.
And Bolivia? The Boli.
Quote from: Admiral Yi on May 04, 2017, 02:11:45 PM
Quote from: Duque de Bragança on May 04, 2017, 02:10:37 PM
Bohemia is named after a Celtic tribe, the Boii. Bavaria is also named after them. Boii moved out, replaced by Germanic tribes then Slavs.
Cool. Thanks.
You're welcome. :)
Quote from: CountDeMoney on May 04, 2017, 02:16:12 PM
Quote from: Duque de Bragança on May 04, 2017, 02:10:37 PM
Bohemia is named after a Celtic tribe, the Boii. Bavaria is also named after them. Boii moved out, replaced by Germanic tribes then Slavs.
And Bolivia? The Boli.
Simon Bolivar. :sleep:
#Sigh
Bolivia Newton-John
Quote from: Admiral Yi on May 04, 2017, 04:59:52 PM
Bolivia Newton-John
She works at Bolive Garden, right?
Belize it or not.
CMON EDDIE
BRING THE ASSBURGERS WITH THESE GUYS
Quote from: CountDeMoney on May 04, 2017, 05:07:58 PM
CMON EDDIE
BRING THE ASSBURGERS WITH THESE GUYS
Isn't it supposed to be "C'mon Irene"?
Quote from: CountDeMoney on May 04, 2017, 05:07:58 PM
CMON EDDIE
BRING THE ASSBURGERS WITH THESE GUYS
Their jokes make sense.
Shut up.
Quote from: CountDeMoney on May 04, 2017, 06:17:39 PM
Shut up.
Baby shut up.
Gimme your heart, gimme, gimme your heart
http://aa.com.tr/en/americas/turkish-officials-prepare-for-erdogan-trump-meeting/811834
QuoteTurkish officials prepare for Erdogan, Trump meeting
Chief of General Staff Hulusi Akar, intelligence head Hakan Fidan, presidential aide Ibrahim Kalin depart for Washington
Three of Turkey's top officials set off on Friday to the U.S. ahead of President Recep Tayyip Erdogan's visit to the country between May 15 and 17.
Chief of General Staff Hulusi Akar, intelligence chief Hakan Fidan and presidential spokesman Ibrahim Kalin are expected to meet with U.S. counterparts ahead of Erdogan's visit.
Erdogan and U.S. President Donald Trump will meet for the first time face to face later this month.
The two leaders are expected to discuss the extradition of the U.S.-based leader of the Fetullah Terror Organization, Fetullah Gulen, developments in Syria and Iraq plus the fight against terrorism.
Trump was one of the first international leaders to congratulate Erdogan over the Yes win in Turkey's recent constitutional referendum.
One of the things the are preparing with, apparently, is a no-fly zone over Syria they have agreed on with Russia.
Sad!
Germany has granted political asylum from persecution to the first few Turkish NATO soldiers with diplomat passport. They were among those that were fired due to being "Gulenists". I am sure that will go down well in the Turkish press. Another 450 asylum claims outstanding.
Huh, why is this pinned now?
Quote from: Zanza on May 08, 2017, 12:12:21 PM
Huh, why is this pinned now?
So that people will ignore it.
Or because of someone's mistake.
Raz hasn't posted in this thread for a while, so the mods are trying to help him spot it. That must be why he is replying in the thread anymore, right? :P
Quote from: alfred russel on May 08, 2017, 02:46:15 PM
Raz hasn't posted in this thread for a while, so the mods are trying to help him spot it. That must be why he is replying in the thread anymore, right? :P
To be fair, didn't Raz sort of concede on this subject?
Quote from: DGuller on May 08, 2017, 06:07:58 PM
Quote from: alfred russel on May 08, 2017, 02:46:15 PM
Raz hasn't posted in this thread for a while, so the mods are trying to help him spot it. That must be why he is replying in the thread anymore, right? :P
To be fair, didn't Raz sort of concede on this subject?
Yes he did and quite clearly so, further up the thread.
I don't remember any of this. What did Raz say?
Quote from: alfred russel on May 08, 2017, 07:38:38 PM
I don't remember any of this. What did Raz say?
This here:
Quote from: Razgovory on December 27, 2016, 02:24:32 PM
Don't look at me. I'm not going to defend this bullshit anymore.
While definitely better than others (Tim), that is still missing the "I was egregiously wrong for years and Erdogan is a POS" acknowledgement.
Quote from: DGuller on May 08, 2017, 06:07:58 PM
Quote from: alfred russel on May 08, 2017, 02:46:15 PM
Raz hasn't posted in this thread for a while, so the mods are trying to help him spot it. That must be why he is replying in the thread anymore, right? :P
To be fair, didn't Raz sort of concede on this subject?
I had desperately hoped that Erdegan could combine Islam, free market capitalism, and democracy. If that worked we could point to Turkey as a counterexample of what a Muslim country can accomplish. At first, it looked like he was doing it. Now he's just goofier looking Putin. Fuck him, fuck Turkey.
Raz, it takes a big man to admit his mistakes. :hug:
Quote from: alfred russel on May 08, 2017, 08:25:23 PM
Raz, it takes a big man to admit his mistakes. :hug:
Don't think for a moment we don't know which side you're pulling for, Pyotr the Rabbit.
Quote from: CountDeMoney on May 08, 2017, 08:37:07 PM
Quote from: alfred russel on May 08, 2017, 08:25:23 PM
Raz, it takes a big man to admit his mistakes. :hug:
Don't think for a moment we don't know which side you're pulling for, Pyotr the Rabbit.
I'm trying to follow the thought process here.
First, you think I'm Dguller.
Second, Dguller is from Lviv. So that makes him Russian. (that doesn't make much sense to me, but oh well)
Third, following from #2, Dguller is a Russian spy and thus secret Putin lover.
Fourth, Putin supports Erdogan. Therefore, DGuller supports Erdogan. Therefore, I support Erdogan.
My point of view: There isn't enough there even for a funny joke. Does Putin even like Erdogan these days? They seem to have a love / hate relationship, and I am not sure which phase they are in right now.
You're an established pathological liar so everything in your post is suspect, Ivan.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/may/17/erdogans-bodyguards-in-violent-clash-with-protesters-in-washington-dc
Quote'Erdoğan's bodyguards' in violent clash with protesters in Washington DC
Nine people hurt and two arrests made during the altercation at the Turkish ambassador's residence in the US capital
Nine people were hurt and two arrests were made during an altercation at the Turkish ambassador's residence in the US capital during a visit by president Recep Tayyip Erdoğan, police have said.
Doug Buchanan, a DC Fire and EMS spokesman, said two of those hurt were seriously injured and were taken to hospitals by ambulance. He said by phone that emergency personnel were called to the residence about 4:30pm Tuesday.
According to witnesses, the brawl erupted when the Turkish president's security detail attacked protesters carrying the flag of the Kurdish PYD party outside the residence.
A local NBC television affiliate reported Erdoğan was inside the building at the time.
Metropolitan Police Department spokesman Dustin Sternbeck said the altercation broke out between two groups but he didn't elaborate on the circumstances. He said two people were arrested, including one who was charged with assaulting a police officer.
The altercation came the same day that Erdoğan met with President Donald Trump at the White House. The State Department declined to comment.
Earlier Trump and Erdoğan had stood side by side at the White House and promised to strengthen strained ties despite the Turkish leader's stern warning about Washington's arming of a Kurdish militia.
Fresh from securing his grip on Turkey with a referendum to enhance his powers, Erdoğan came to the Oval Office with complaints about US support for Kurdish fighters and what Ankara says is Washington's harbouring of the mastermind of a failed coup.
But both leaders also tried to put a brave face on their differences and to renew a key alliance between Nato's leading power and its biggest Muslim member, partners in the fight against the Islamic State group in Syria and Iraq.
"It is absolutely unacceptable to take the YPG-PYD into consideration as partners in the region, and it's going against a global agreement we reached," Erdoğan said, referring to the Kurdish Peoples' Protection Units (YPG) in Syria.
"In the same way, we should never allow those groups who want to change the ethnic or religious structures in the region to use terrorism as a pretext," he added, suggesting that the Kurds were using the anti-Isis fight as cover for separatist nationalism.
So Erdoğan was in DC to pick up some tips on how to promote authoritarian drift in a democracy?
That's just great. I work in the same building as the Turkish consulate - pro-Kurdish protestors around quite a bit here.
I hesitate to ask this since I am afraid I know the answer but what is the 'America First' White House's response to this attack of Americans by foreign security personnel?
Quote from: Valmy on May 17, 2017, 12:14:37 PM
I hesitate to ask this since I am afraid I know the answer but what is the 'America First' White House's response to this attack of Americans by foreign security personnel?
It was a false flag op?
Quote from: The Minsky Moment on May 17, 2017, 09:44:26 AM
That's just great. I work in the same building as the Turkish consulate - pro-Kurdish protestors around quite a bit here.
Heh JR I found your business:
Quote
BORDEAUX WEALTH ADVISORS LLC
:P
I'm betting it's the law firm that exists there as well.
http://www.reuters.com/article/us-turkey-germany-idUSKCN18E0QU
QuoteGermany is free to withdraw troops from Turkey's Incirlik, Turkish minister says
Germany is free to withdraw its troops stationed at Turkey's Incirlik air base if it wants to, Turkish Foreign Minister Mevlut Cavusoglu said on Thursday, adding Berlin should change its attitude towards Ankara.
In an interview with broadcaster NTV, Cavusoglu said Ankara was not attempting to blackmail Berlin by preventing German lawmakers access to Incirlik, where some 250 German troops are stationed as part of the coalition against Islamic State.
Turkish officials have told Reuters that such a visit by German lawmakers would not be appropriate at the moment.
Defense Minister Ursula von der Leyen on Wednesday said the German government had been evaluating possible alternatives to Incirlik for some time and was considering moving the troops to Jordan.
"If they want to leave, that is up to them," Cavusoglu said. "We are not going to beg. They were the ones who wanted to come and we helped them. If they want to go, we would say 'Goodbye'," he said.
Relations between NATO allies Germany and Turkey have deteriorated sharply after a series of diplomatic rows.
Most recently, Turkey has expressed anger that Germany is granting asylum to Turks accused of participating in a failed coup in July. The failed putsch prompted a purge of the Turkish military, judiciary and civil service.
German officials have said more than 400 Turkish citizens with diplomatic passports and other government work permits have sought asylum in Germany since last year's failed coup.
Cavusoglu said that Germany should change its attitude towards Turkey.
"You can't treat Turkey as you wish anymore," he said. "If you want to get closer to Turkey, treat it like a friend, don't act like a boss."
NYT has done extensive analysis of Erdogan's security fighting protesters in DC: https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2017/05/26/us/turkey-protesters-attack-video-analysis.html?hp&action=click&pgtype=Homepage&clickSource=story-heading&module=photo-spot-region®ion=top-news&WT.nav=top-news&_r=0
Quote from: Syt on May 26, 2017, 02:32:23 AM
NYT has done extensive analysis of Erdogan's security fighting protesters in DC: https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2017/05/26/us/turkey-protesters-attack-video-analysis.html?hp&action=click&pgtype=Homepage&clickSource=story-heading&module=photo-spot-region®ion=top-news&WT.nav=top-news&_r=0
QuoteA few seconds after Mr. Kose spoke into his earpiece, the men charged
"-Hello! Is this thing on?"
https://www.si.com/planet-futbol/2017/05/27/turkey-president-recep-tayyip-erdogan-stadium-arena-ban-galatasaray
QuoteTurkish president Erdogan orders teams to remove 'arena' from stadium names
Turkish power Galatasaray has become the first team in that country to remove the word "arena" from its stadium's name, following an order from president Recep Tayyip Erdogan.
In a speech delivered Friday in Istanbul, Erdogan said he had instructed Sports Minister Akif Cagatay Kilic to remove "arena" from stadium names in the country due to the word's ancient Roman history.
"I am against 'arena,'" Erdogan said. "Of course you know what they used to do in arenas in the past? They would let people be shred to pieces. We are going to remove the word 'arena' from stadiums."
Erdogan also noted that the word does not exist in the Turkish language and "stressed the need for Turkey to develop its own language," according to the Agence France-Presse.
Galatasaray announced Saturday that the club's Turk Telecom Arena will now be known as Turk Telekom Stadium. Rival Besiktas plays at the Vodafone Arena and the Fenerbahce basketball team plays at Ulker Sports Arena.
Erdogan narrowly won a constitutional referendum last month that granted him near-dictatorial powers. The controversial leader survived an attempted coup last year.
Turkish basketball player Enes Kanter called Erdogan "the Hitler of our century" last week when he was detained at a Romanian airport after Turkish authorities canceled his passport.
LULZ
As if bull-fighting (or sand :P) never existed in Asia Minor.
Quote from: Duque de Bragança on May 28, 2017, 07:06:50 AM
LULZ
As if bull-fighting (or sand :P) never existed in Asia Minor.
Next he'll change the names of the months and build a giant golden statue of himself
"Stadium" is such a red-blooded Turkish word. And nothing wrong ever took place in stadiums, as everybody is aware.
I can't help but thinking of Esposito from "Bananas" whenever Erdogan issues statements like this. It's time for Fielding Mellish to step up:
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fnextprojection.com%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2013%2F02%2Fbananas2.jpg&hash=273900d86be410baa2c7dd256ee558c8894d2d94)
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-40163369 (http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-40163369)
QuoteGermany set to quit Turkey's Incirlik airbase amid row
Germany says it plans to move its aircraft and military personnel out of Turkey's Incirlik airbase, as Turkey refuses to allow visits by German MPs.
Defence Minister Ursula von der Leyen said they would relocate to Jordan's Azraq airbase.
German Tornado jets fly reconnaissance missions over Iraq and Syria from Incirlik, helping US-led forces fighting so-called Islamic State (IS).
German-Turkish talks broke down in Ankara on Monday.
German Foreign Minister Sigmar Gabriel said 250 German troops and military equipment would have to transfer from Incirlik, in southern Turkey.
The reason, he explained, was that his Turkish counterpart Mevlut Cavusoglu had told him visits to the base by German MPs could not take place.
According to Ms von der Leyen, Jordan has agreed to host the German contingent at Azraq. She said there would be a suspension of the German surveillance flights for a few weeks.
Germany also flies a tanker plane from Incirlik to refuel warplanes participating in the air campaign against IS.
The German government is expected to formally approve the transfer later this month.
Verbal attacks
Last month, Turkey prevented a group of German MPs from visiting Incirlik, citing as a reason Germany's decision to grant asylum to Turkish soldiers it accuses of taking part in last year's attempted coup.
More than 400 Turkish military staff, diplomats, members of the judiciary and other officials and their relatives have applied for political asylum in Germany. Some requests have been granted, though Germany has not given a precise figure.
A bitter war of words erupted between the two Nato allies in the run-up to Turkey's 16 April referendum, which resulted in President Recep Tayyip Erdogan winning sweeping new powers.
He was furious that Germany prevented Turkish ministers from campaigning for him on German soil, and he accused Berlin of "Nazi-style" behaviour.
Meanwhile, Germany remains concerned over Turkey's detention of German-Turkish Die Welt journalist Deniz Yucel.
Never overstay your welcome.
Wise move by Germany. Turkey cannot be trusted.
The sick fuck of Europe.
Quote from: Duque de Bragança on May 28, 2017, 07:06:50 AM
LULZ
As if bull-fighting (or sand :P) never existed in Asia Minor.
It is just a rejection of the Roman/Greek heritage, with a reference to it being brutal and savage.
Quote from: The Brain on June 06, 2017, 01:26:54 PM
The sick fuck of Europe.
Sick fuck for sure, but of Europe? :P
Quote from: The Larch on June 06, 2017, 01:07:00 PM
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-40163369 (http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-40163369)
QuoteGermany set to quit Turkey's Incirlik airbase amid row.
Hey Krauts - hear there may be an opening soon in Qatar . . .
Come Friday morning, Mrs May will be on the phone to Erodgan for tips on how to curtail civil liberties still further.
Erdogan, and all social-conservatives, no matter their country of origin, are swine. News at 11.
Quote from: AnchorClanker on June 11, 2017, 12:42:03 AM
Erdogan, and all social-conservatives, no matter their country of origin, are swine. News at 11.
Well, gee, I love you too Ank.
Quote from: dps on June 11, 2017, 10:38:01 AM
Quote from: AnchorClanker on June 11, 2017, 12:42:03 AM
Erdogan, and all social-conservatives, no matter their country of origin, are swine. News at 11.
Well, gee, I love you too Ank.
Oh, I don't mind it when it's a personal ethos thing - I have many 'conservative' social beliefs as well, but I cannot abide it as a political program. (Apologies, I should have made that clear before baring my fangs!)
QuoteTurkey charges Amnesty chief Taner Kilic with coup links
The head of Amnesty International in Turkey has been charged with membership of a terrorist organisation and remanded in custody pending trial, the group has said.
Taner Kilic was detained on Tuesday in the province of Izmir along with 22 other lawyers.
The arrests were part of a crackdown following last July's failed coup attempt.
Amnesty called the charges "a mockery of justice".
The human rights group's secretary general, Salil Shetty, demanded Mr Kilic's immediate release and said charges against him should be dropped.
"The charges... show just how arbitrary, just how sweeping, the Turkish government's frenzied pursuit of its perceived enemies and critics has become," he said.
Amnesty's Turkey researcher Andrew Gardner tweeted: "Human rights defender, Amnesty Turkey chair Taner Kilic remanded in pre-trial detention. No credible evidence presented at hearing. Shame!"
Amnesty has been a vocal critic of the crackdown on suspected coup plotters. It said last year it had "credible reports" of detainees being subjected to "beatings and torture, including rape".
Mr Kilic is accused of using an encrypted messaging application called Bylock that the government says was used by followers of the US-based Islamic preacher Fethullah Gulen.
President Recep Tayyip Erdogan accuses Mr Gulen of instigating the coup attempt - a charge the cleric denies.
Amnesty said in a statement that Mr Kilic denied "ever having downloaded or used Bylock, or even having heard of it".
More than 40,000 people were arrested and 120,000 sacked or suspended in the aftermath of the failed coup. They include police, military personnel, teachers and public servants.
Last month police arrested 1,000 people and issued arrest warrants for another 3,224 in an operation across 81 provinces.
The police force also suspended more than 9,000 officers over alleged links to Mr Gulen.
Mr Erdogan's critics say he is using the coup as a pretext to crush dissent and purge opponents.
At this rate the question will be who in Turkey is not accused of belonging to that network. Also, going after NGOs, that so Putinesque.
Quote from: AnchorClanker on June 11, 2017, 10:50:04 AM
Quote from: dps on June 11, 2017, 10:38:01 AM
Quote from: AnchorClanker on June 11, 2017, 12:42:03 AM
Erdogan, and all social-conservatives, no matter their country of origin, are swine. News at 11.
Well, gee, I love you too Ank.
Oh, I don't mind it when it's a personal ethos thing - I have many 'conservative' social beliefs as well, but I cannot abide it as a political program. (Apologies, I should have made that clear before baring my fangs!)
"I'm a conservative, therefore I wear modest clothing" versus "I'm a conservative, therefore you must go to jail if you wear immodest clothing". ;)
Gaol! :mad:
https://www.nytimes.com/2017/06/15/world/middleeast/erdogan-turkey-washington-protesters-attack.html
QuoteTurkish President Assails U.S. Over Charges Against His Guards
WASHINGTON — President Recep Tayyip Erdogan of Turkey lashed out at the United States on Thursday in brief but fiery remarks condemning criminal charges filed here against a dozen of his security personnel accused of attacking American protesters.
"What kind of a rule, what kind of a law is this?" Mr. Erdogan said, according to an account by Anadolu Agency, a state-run news service. "If those bodyguards would not protect me, why I am bringing them with me to the U.S.?"
Around the same time, Mr. Erdogan's government summoned John R. Bass, the American ambassador, to a meeting with officials from the Foreign Ministry in Ankara. They told Mr. Bass that the charges were "wrong, biased and lack legal basis," and blamed American law enforcement officers who had been on the scene, according to a statement provided by the Foreign Ministry.
Mr. Erdogan's remarks and the summons came several hours after the American authorities announced that they had charged 12 Turkish security personnel and four other American and Canadian civilians in connection with the May 16 attack, which sent nine people to a hospital and was captured in vivid detail on video. They said arrest warrants had been issued for the 12 guards, who left the country with Mr. Erdogan just hours after the attack.
The United States also revoked the visas of multiple guards, some of whom have not been charged.
Secretary of State Rex W. Tillerson said the charges should "send a clear message that the United States does not tolerate individuals who use intimidation and violence to stifle freedom of speech and legitimate political expression." He said the department was still determining what, if any, additional steps would be taken.
The security personnel had been a part of Mr. Erdogan's traveling protection detail during a visit to the United States last month.
On May 16, after Mr. Erdogan received a warm welcome at the White House, videos show those armed guards and other supporters attacked a group of protesters gathered outside the Turkish ambassador's residence here. In another video, Mr. Erdogan can be seen watching the attack play out from a Mercedes-Benz sedan parked a few yards away. His role in the clash, if any, is unclear.
The standoff, which comes after weeks of careful maneuvering by the State Department over the case, complicates an already fraught relationship between Washington and Ankara.
Though allies and fellow NATO members, Turkey and America have grown distant in recent years because of American support for Syrian Kurdish forces that Turkey regards as a franchise of the P.K.K., a Kurdish nationalist militia fighting a guerrilla war in southeastern Turkey.
America is currently supplying arms to the Syrian Kurds to help them capture Raqqa, the capital of the Islamic State. Turkey fears these weapons will eventually end up in the hands of the P.K.K. in Turkey.
Mr. Erdogan is likewise frustrated by American reluctance to give up Fethullah Gulen, a Turkish cleric living in the United States that the Erdogan government accuses of masterminding last year's coup attempt in Turkey.
Relations are also strained by the trial in New York of Reza Zarrab, a Turkish-Iranian associate of Mr. Erdogan's, who stands accused of helping Turkey circumvent American sanctions on Iran.
Speaking during a dinner at his palace in Ankara late Thursday, Mr. Erdogan said the protesters had been a part of the P.K.K. and faulted the American officers for not controlling them.
"Can you imagine what would the attitude be if something similar happens in Turkey?" he said.
Some of the protesters were holding the flag of a Syrian Kurdish militia, which Mr. Erdogan and his government say shows them to be supporters of P.K.K.
The Foreign Ministry officials delivered a similar message in their meeting with the ambassador, saying that American law enforcement officials had not taken appropriate precautions to protect their delegation.
They said the police's tolerance of "so-called protesters" near the ambassador's residence ran "counter to any understanding of justice."
And, as they had in an earlier summons with the ambassador, they accused the United States of not disciplining two American officers who they say briefly detained two Turkish security officers hours after the May 16 brawl.
In Washington, where lawmakers and advocacy groups have been pushing the American authorities to pursue charges, the reaction was altogether different as the news was greeted with calls for the State Department to go further in pushing Ankara to extradite the men.
After Thursday's reaction, that does not appear likely. The men will be unable to re-enter the United States but likely cannot be prosecuted. If they were to return to the country, they would face a variety of felony and misdemeanor assault charges.
"I would like to be an optimist and hope that the people responsible for these things we all saw on video will come here and turn themselves in," said Chief Peter Newsham of the Washington police.
Chief Newsham said that no staff members from the Turkish Embassy in Washington were implicated in the attack. He said that there were, however, several additional suspects whom law enforcement officials had not yet been able to identify and charge.
The skirmish in May does not appear to have been an isolated incident. In 2011, Mr. Erdogan's guards took part in a fight at the United Nations that sent at least one security officer to the hospital.
And in 2016, the police and members of Mr. Erdogan's security team clashed with demonstrators outside the Brookings Institution in Washington.
Sorry Recep, your fascist shtick may play well in Konya, but it doesn't cut any ice here.
Nice job Rex. :)
Neo-Ottoman map for Tim, recycled by Erdogan
(https://foreignpolicymag.files.wordpress.com/2016/10/misaki-milli-nedir.jpg)
Article here:
http://foreignpolicy.com/2016/10/23/turkeys-religious-nationalists-want-ottoman-borders-iraq-erdogan/ (http://foreignpolicy.com/2016/10/23/turkeys-religious-nationalists-want-ottoman-borders-iraq-erdogan/)
Intro only, long article.
QuoteIn the past few weeks, a conflict between Ankara and Baghdad over Turkey's role in the liberation of Mosul has precipitated an alarming burst of Turkish irredentism. On two separate occasions, President Recep Tayyip Erdogan criticized the Treaty of Lausanne, which created the borders of modern Turkey, for leaving the country too small. He spoke of the country's interest in the fate of Turkish minorities living beyond these borders, as well as its historic claims to the Iraqi city of Mosul, near which Turkey has a small military base. And, alongside news of Turkish jets bombing Kurdish forces in Syria and engaging in mock dogfights with Greek planes over the Aegean Sea, Turkey's pro-government media have shown a newfound interest in a series of imprecise, even crudely drawn, maps of Turkey with new and improved borders.
Turkey won't be annexing part of Iraq anytime soon, but this combination of irredentist cartography and rhetoric nonetheless offers some insight into Turkey's current foreign and domestic policies and Ankara's self-image. The maps, in particular, reveal the continued relevance of Turkish nationalism, a long-standing element of the country's statecraft, now reinvigorated with some revised history and an added dose of religion. But if the past is any indication, the military interventions and confrontational rhetoric this nationalism inspires may worsen Turkey's security and regional standing.
They're going full retard.
QuoteTurkish schools to stop teaching evolution, official says
Board of education chairman says subject is debatable, controversial and too complicated for students
Kareem Shaheen and Gözde Hatunoğlu in Istanbul
Friday 23 June 2017 06.00 BST
Last modified on Friday 23 June 2017 07.04 BST
Evolution will no longer be taught in Turkish schools, a senior education official has said, in a move likely to raise the ire of the country's secular opposition.
Alpaslan Durmuş, who chairs the board of education, said evolution was debatable, controversial and too complicated for students.
"We believe that these subjects are beyond their [students] comprehension," said Durmuş in a video published on the education ministry's website.
Durmuş said a chapter on evolution was being removed from ninth grade biology course books, and the subject postponed to the undergraduate period. Another change to the curriculum may reduce the amount of time that students spend studying the legacy of secularism.
Quote from: The Larch on June 23, 2017, 04:42:08 AM
They're going full retard.
QuoteTurkish schools to stop teaching evolution, official says
Board of education chairman says subject is debatable, controversial and too complicated for students
Kareem Shaheen and Gözde Hatunoğlu in Istanbul
Friday 23 June 2017 06.00 BST
Last modified on Friday 23 June 2017 07.04 BST
Evolution will no longer be taught in Turkish schools, a senior education official has said, in a move likely to raise the ire of the country's secular opposition.
Alpaslan Durmuş, who chairs the board of education, said evolution was debatable, controversial and too complicated for students.
"We believe that these subjects are beyond their [students] comprehension," said Durmuş in a video published on the education ministry's website.
Durmuş said a chapter on evolution was being removed from ninth grade biology course books, and the subject postponed to the undergraduate period. Another change to the curriculum may reduce the amount of time that students spend studying the legacy of secularism.
Interesting that their excuse is that young Turks are too dumb to understand it. Not very flattering. :lol:
Maybe they have to teach to the test as well.
http://www.cnn.com/2017/06/23/middleeast/turkey-to-stop-teaching-evolution/index.html
Quote
Istanbul, Turkey (CNN)Turkish high school students will no longer be taught the theory of evolution.
The subject has been cut from the curriculum under changes made to eliminate "controversial" topics, the head of the national board of education, Alpaslan Durmus, announced in a video address.
"If our students don't have the background, the scientific knowledge, or information to comprehend the debate around controversial issues, we have left them out," Durmus said.
The new curriculum will go into effect for the 2017- 2018 school year.
It was crafted to emphasize national values and highlight contributions made by Turkish and Muslim scholars, Durmus said.
History classes will look beyond "Eurocentrism" and music classes will focus on "all colors of Turkish music," he said.
Next they'll stop teaching evolution.
Quote from: The Minsky Moment on June 23, 2017, 07:27:09 PM
Next they'll stop teaching evolution.
Where would you get a crazy idea like that?
You guys hear about this?
http://www.cnn.com/2017/06/23/middleeast/turkey-to-stop-teaching-evolution/index.html
Quote
Istanbul, Turkey (CNN)Turkish high school students will no longer be taught the theory of evolution.
The subject has been cut from the curriculum under changes made to eliminate "controversial" topics, the head of the national board of education, Alpaslan Durmus, announced in a video address.
"If our students don't have the background, the scientific knowledge, or information to comprehend the debate around controversial issues, we have left them out," Durmus said.
The new curriculum will go into effect for the 2017- 2018 school year.
It was crafted to emphasize national values and highlight contributions made by Turkish and Muslim scholars, Durmus said.
History classes will look beyond "Eurocentrism" and music classes will focus on "all colors of Turkish music," he said.
(https://s.yimg.com/ny/api/res/1.2/gBM2Jc58yVoyuhuz97NqVQ--/YXBwaWQ9aGlnaGxhbmRlcjtzbT0xO3c9MTI4MDtoPTk2MDtpbD1wbGFuZQ--/http://media.zenfs.com/en_us/News/ap_webfeeds/2d864d5841a942f39a218284a2486a4f.jpg)
(https://s.yimg.com/ny/api/res/1.2/eiqOGIVT4pmZ2YK9FXLj4w--/YXBwaWQ9aGlnaGxhbmRlcjtzbT0xO3c9MTI4MDtoPTk2MDtpbD1wbGFuZQ--/http://media.zenfs.com/en_us/News/ap_webfeeds/87b1182ef9ed41ee933ddd7334ece10c.jpg)
https://www.yahoo.com/news/istanbul-pride-march-despite-governors-ban-105425411.html (https://www.yahoo.com/news/istanbul-pride-march-despite-governors-ban-105425411.html)
Someone wouldn't wear the ribbon.
Love the drag queen hauling ass in the background.
Quote from: CountDeMoney on June 25, 2017, 10:22:17 PM
Someone wouldn't wear the ribbon
Note to garbon- Seinfeld reference
QuoteBerlin to change policy towards Turkey as German citizen is held
Foreign ministry also issues travel warning after Turkish authorities detain human rights activist for alleged terrorist activity
Germany's foreign minister has announced a significant "reorientation" of its policy towards Turkey after a human rights activist became the latest German citizen to be detained for alleged terrorist activity.
"We need our policies towards Turkey to go in a new direction ... we can't continue as we have done until now," Sigmar Gabriel told reporters at a press conference in Berlin on Thursday. "We need to be clearer than we have been until now so those responsible in Ankara understand that such policies are not without consequences."
Berlin has issued new travel warnings of risks in Turkey for German tourists, and Gabriel said his government could no longer guarantee German corporate investment in Turkey after President Recep Tayyip Erdoğan's government accused several companies including Daimler and BASF of ties to the movement of his political enemy Fethullah Gülen.
Gabriel also said he could not envisage talks on expanding the customs union to Turkey and would talk to other EU leaders about reviewing pre-accession funds being offered to Turkey.
The announcement marks a further deterioration of increasingly strained relations between the two countries.
Six people, including German human rights consultant Peter Steudtner and Amnesty International's country director, Idil Eser, are awaiting trial in Turkey for allegedly aiding a terror group.
The Turkey correspondent of the German broadsheet Die Welt, Deniz Yücel, has been detained on charges of propaganda in support of a terrorist organisation since February. Pre-trial detention in Turkey can last for up to five years.
The German chancellor, Angela Merkel, views the series of measures announced by Gabriel as "necessary and unavoidable", her spokesman said in a tweet.
Reacting to the measures, Erdoğan's spokesman said the two countries had "good relations".
"It is not possible for us to accept statements aiming to blur the economic environment based on political motivation, we hope they turn back from this," Ibrahim Kalin told a news conference in Ankara.
Some leading political figures in Germany accuse Erdoğan of gathering "political hostages" in an attempt to force Germany to hand over two high-ranking Turkish generals involved in last year's failed coup who have applied for asylum in Frankfurt.
"Deniz Yücel and Peter Steudtner are being traded as political hostages," said German Green party co-chair Cem Özdemir. "The government must no longer be ordered around." A spokesperson at the German foreign office on Wednesday ruled out the possibility of a swap deal.
The foreign office's travel warning states that Turkey had breached its international commitments by denying consular access to German citizens on pre-trial arrest. Even people travelling to Turkey for short trips are therefore advised to register themselves with the consulate or embassy ahead of their trip.
Turkey has described Germany's demand for the release of human rights activist Steudtner as unacceptable and an attempt to interfere with the Turkish judiciary.
In a statement published on Thursday, Turkey's foreign ministry said it has kept Germany's chargé d'affaires in Ankara informed of Steudtner's case, adding, "the independent Turkish judiciary must be trusted".
The ministry said statements by the spokesmen for the German chancellor and foreign ministry constituted "diplomatic rudeness" and said the judiciary cannot be instructed or counselled by anyone.
The foreign ministry accused Germany of a "double standard", saying it harbours members of terror groups and prevents their trial.
With allies like these...
http://www.france24.com/en/20170720-turkey-usa-military-leaks-french-troops-syria (http://www.france24.com/en/20170720-turkey-usa-military-leaks-french-troops-syria)
Quote
Turkey leaks secret locations of US, French troops in Syria
© Delil Souleiman, AFP | US troops on patrol near the northern Syrian village of Ain Issa on June 3, 2017.
Text by Leela JACINTO
Latest update : 2017-07-20
Turkey's state news agency on Tuesday published the locations of secret US military bases in Syria as well as details on the numbers of US and French troops stationed there, sparking the ire of fellow NATO member states.
In the latest display of tensions between Turkey and other NATO member nations, Turkey's state-run Anadolu news agency earlier this week published a detailed report of the secret locations of US military bases, operational posts and military posts inside Syria. The 620-word news report also included the numbers of US soldiers and French special forces stationed at these locations.
The unprecedented leaking of sensitive battlefield information by the state-run news agency obviously had official Turkish backing, according to Jasper Mortimer, FRANCE 24's Turkey correspondent.
"It certainly was intentional. Anadolu agency is the hand-servant of the [Turkish] government. It would not have published this report without the green light from the top of government," explained Mortimer, reporting from Ankara, adding that the revelation of troop numbers was particularly serious. "War correspondents do not give the number of troops in the unit to which they are attached. That is seen as giving information to the enemy. But here, Anadolu agency appears to have done exactly that."
'Advertising' battlefield secrets
The report, "US increases military posts supporting PKK/PYD in Syria," lists US positions in Kurdish administered area of northern Syria and is the latest display of Ankara's ire over Washington's support for the PYD (Democratic Union Party), which Turkey views as the Syrian affiliate of the proscribed Turkish PKK (Kurdistan Workers' Party).
The PYD is the political umbrella of the YPG (People's Protection Units) which part of the US-led military operations against the Islamic State (IS) group in the region.
"Turkey sees the YPG as an affiliate of the PKK and Turkey has long called on Washington to withdraw support for them. But there's a difference between calling on America to withdraw support and actually advertising the details of that support," said Mortimer.
The US denies working with Kurdish separatists and maintains the YPG is part of the SDF (Syrian Democratic Forces), which includes a large component of Arab troops.
French special forces on the ground
The leaked details of US positions inside Syria include three US military posts in the northern Syrian province of Raqqa, home to the IS group's de facto capital.
The report mentions the presence of US and French special forces stationed in a military post located on a hill south of Kurdish-administered town of Kobani. At a military base in Ayn Issah, a town in northern Raqqa, troops included "200 US soldiers and 75 French special forces units," the report added.
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DFGtGqwXsAAwZjK.jpg:large (https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DFGtGqwXsAAwZjK.jpg:large)
Operational capacities of the locations, including bases that are large enough for military helicopters and cargo planes are also detailed, as well as weapons arsenal that include artillery batteries, rocket launchers and armored vehicles.
Lives at risk, says Pentagon
The report sparked strong condemnations from the US Defense and State Departments on Wednesday, with the Pentagon warning that the leaks could put lives at risk.
"The release of sensitive military information exposes coalition forces to unnecessary risk and has the potential to disrupt ongoing operations to defeat ISIS," Pentagon spokesman Eric Pahon told reporters on Wednesday, using another acronym for the IS group.
French officials have not yet responded to the Turkish news report. When contacted by FRANCE 24, a French foreign ministry press officer said an official statement was not expected on Thursday.
The latest Anadolu report marks another step in the deterioration of US-Turkey relations, with Ankara accusing Washington of failing to expedite the extradition of Pennsylvania-based Turkish cleric, Fethullah Gulen. Ankara blames Gulen for masterminding the July 15, 2016 coup attempt, a charge Gulen denies.
Tensions have also been simmering between Turkish military and NATO officials based in Brussels. Turkey is NATO's only Muslim-majority member with the alliance's second-largest standing army. In December 2016, NATO's top commander, Gen. Curtis Scaparrotti warned of a "degradation" of the alliance's command operations following Turkey's dismissal of "talented, capable" senior Turkish military officials in massive purges after the July 2016 coup attempt.
What's the process for kicking somebody out of NATO?
You never want to go full Pakistan . . .
Yep, Middle East is still the front runner for starting WW 3.
In addition to what The Larch posted above, the head of Germany's foreign intelligence agency announced publicly that Turkey is no longer seen as just a NATO partner with whom we cooperate, but due to Turkish intelligence operations in Germany is also seen as an enemy.
Quote from: Zanza on July 21, 2017, 12:26:13 PM
In addition to what The Larch posted above, the head of Germany's foreign intelligence agency announced publicly that Turkey is no longer seen as just a NATO partner with whom we cooperate, but due to Turkish intelligence operations in Germany is also seen as an enemy.
I remember Merkel complaining that the US tapped her phone. Is the US the enemy now?
You saw how she treated our President Mono! There is your answer :P
But seriously Turkey has been giving Germany shit for years now. Kind of a risky move when so many Turks live in Germany.
Quote from: Monoriu on July 21, 2017, 05:29:27 PM
Quote from: Zanza on July 21, 2017, 12:26:13 PM
In addition to what The Larch posted above, the head of Germany's foreign intelligence agency announced publicly that Turkey is no longer seen as just a NATO partner with whom we cooperate, but due to Turkish intelligence operations in Germany is also seen as an enemy.
I remember Merkel complaining that the US tapped her phone. Is the US the enemy now?
No, this is about Turkey spying, pressuring and influencing Turkish and former Turkish citizens in Germany, especially opponents of the regime there. Protecting our citizens from foreign intelligence agencies operating here.
But it is rare for our intelligence agencies to announce such a shift in policy, so the announcement is mainly a political manoeuvre.
German Tornados over Ankara. War boner.
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fairheadsfly.com%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2013%2F09%2FGermany_TornadoIDS_2.jpg&hash=da805ffdaf18e3a7b3e49e0d030e2966c23a4a52)
Needs more swastikas.
Quote from: 11B4V on July 21, 2017, 10:07:20 PM
German Tornados over Ankara. War boner.
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fairheadsfly.com%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2013%2F09%2FGermany_TornadoIDS_2.jpg&hash=da805ffdaf18e3a7b3e49e0d030e2966c23a4a52)
Variable wing boner. Why did we have to retire the F-14 again?
Quote from: DontSayBanana on July 22, 2017, 09:59:40 AM
Why did we have to retire the F-14 again?
Because the olds people like grumbler bitched about shit like spare parts. Today's piece of shit planes less moving parts are much more senior-friendly. INTRODUCING THE F/A-24 JITTERBUG
Quote from: CountDeMoney on July 22, 2017, 10:05:56 AM
Because the olds people like grumbler bitched about shit like spare parts. Today's piece of shit planes less moving parts are much more senior-friendly. INTRODUCING THE F/A-24 JITTERBUG
Thinking of olds, I just realized I'm officially in that "military equipment nostalgia" camp. The prettiest warplanes to me now are the F-14 and the P-38, and even my also-rans like the F-111 are starting to get up there.
Quote from: DontSayBanana on July 22, 2017, 10:15:35 AM
Quote from: CountDeMoney on July 22, 2017, 10:05:56 AM
Because the olds people like grumbler bitched about shit like spare parts. Today's piece of shit planes less moving parts are much more senior-friendly. INTRODUCING THE F/A-24 JITTERBUG
Thinking of olds, I just realized I'm officially in that "military equipment nostalgia" camp. The prettiest warplanes to me now are the F-14 and the P-38, and even my also-rans like the F-111 are starting to get up there.
F-111 is sweet looking. As a kid my house was right along one of the flight paths for McClellan AFB. Watched them all the time as a kid.
My sweetheart navy plane is F-8
Quote from: 11B4V on July 22, 2017, 11:55:50 AM
Quote from: DontSayBanana on July 22, 2017, 10:15:35 AM
Quote from: CountDeMoney on July 22, 2017, 10:05:56 AM
Because the olds people like grumbler bitched about shit like spare parts. Today's piece of shit planes less moving parts are much more senior-friendly. INTRODUCING THE F/A-24 JITTERBUG
Thinking of olds, I just realized I'm officially in that "military equipment nostalgia" camp. The prettiest warplanes to me now are the F-14 and the P-38, and even my also-rans like the F-111 are starting to get up there.
F-111 is sweet looking. As a kid my house was right along one of the flight paths for McClellan AFB. Watched them all the time as a kid.
My sweetheart navy plane is F-8
Oh, Crusader, nice choice.
My US Navy favourite RA-5C.
You pussies.
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.boeing.com%2Fresources%2Fboeingdotcom%2Fhistory%2Fimages%2Ff-4_phantom_hero_crop_1280x436.jpg&hash=7ba889692c800e5b49b4a41035673ab117e95770)
(https://i.makeagif.com/media/6-09-2015/eaWVYP.gif)
Flying bus.
Oh look, another military hardware hijack.
Quote from: Eddie Teach on July 22, 2017, 05:57:53 PM
Oh look, another military hardware hijack.
I'm planning a another hijack, best French post-war twin engined fighter/Attack plane, that way I'll draw Valmy into the debate. :frog:
Better keep that weak ass Dassault bullshit out of here.
Quote from: mongers on July 22, 2017, 04:08:23 PM
Quote from: 11B4V on July 22, 2017, 11:55:50 AM
Quote from: DontSayBanana on July 22, 2017, 10:15:35 AM
Quote from: CountDeMoney on July 22, 2017, 10:05:56 AM
Because the olds people like grumbler bitched about shit like spare parts. Today's piece of shit planes less moving parts are much more senior-friendly. INTRODUCING THE F/A-24 JITTERBUG
Thinking of olds, I just realized I'm officially in that "military equipment nostalgia" camp. The prettiest warplanes to me now are the F-14 and the P-38, and even my also-rans like the F-111 are starting to get up there.
F-111 is sweet looking. As a kid my house was right along one of the flight paths for McClellan AFB. Watched them all the time as a kid.
My sweetheart navy plane is F-8
Oh, Crusader, nice choice.
My US Navy favourite RA-5C.
P-40.
I'm a A-4 skyhawk fan.
Quote from: CountDeMoney on July 22, 2017, 07:11:39 PM
Quote from: Ed Anger on July 22, 2017, 07:05:06 PM
I'm a A-4 skyhawk fan.
Liar.
The autism has hit Seedy. :(
Tomorrow will be the Seedy memorial wake and afterwards, dividing up his wargames.
Ed still hasn't put together his F-85 Goblin model kit.
I USE TOO MUCH GLUE
Stupid water transfer decals always bunched up, too. USS ENTPRISE SON OF A
Quote from: CountDeMoney on July 22, 2017, 07:23:12 PM
Stupid water transfer decals always bunched up, too. USS ENTPRISE SON OF A
Sounds like a model Tim built. What a hassel.
Quote from: CountDeMoney on July 22, 2017, 06:10:08 PM
Better keep that weak ass Dassault bullshit out of here.
My favorite Frenchy jet is Super Etendard.
Quote from: 11B4V on July 22, 2017, 10:55:38 PM
Quote from: CountDeMoney on July 22, 2017, 06:10:08 PM
Better keep that weak ass Dassault bullshit out of here.
My favorite Frenchy jet is Super Etendard.
Ugh.
Quote from: CountDeMoney on July 22, 2017, 10:05:56 AM
Quote from: DontSayBanana on July 22, 2017, 09:59:40 AM
Why did we have to retire the F-14 again?
Because the olds people like grumbler bitched about shit like spare parts. Today's piece of shit planes less moving parts are much more senior-friendly. INTRODUCING THE F/A-24 JITTERBUG
Hey, gramps, I was the biggest proponent of the F-14D in these parts. Your memory is apparently shot.
Quote from: grumbler on July 23, 2017, 09:50:30 PM
Hey, gramps, I was the biggest proponent of the F-14D in these parts. Your memory is apparently shot.
It is shot. Through and through. :(
Grumbler was also the biggest proponent of Daedalus' wing design.
Quote from: Eddie Teach on July 23, 2017, 10:34:21 PM
Grumbler was also the biggest proponent of Daedalus' wing design.
If Daedalus had used the swing-wing, as I advised, Icarus would be alive today.
He'd be pretty old, though.
Meanwhile, between Germany and Turkey ...
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-40973197
QuoteTurkey's Erdogan says German leaders are enemies
Turkish President Recep Tayyip Erdogan has called Germany's ruling politicians "enemies of Turkey" who deserve to be rejected by German-Turkish voters.
Germany will hold a general election on 24 September, and about one million ethnic Turks living in Germany can vote. A majority of them backed Mr Erdogan in an April referendum.
"The Christian Democrats [CDU], SPD [Social Democrats], the Green Party are all enemies of Turkey," he said.
German ministers protested angrily.
Foreign Minister Sigmar Gabriel said Mr Erdogan's comments were an "unprecedented" act of interference in Germany's sovereignty.
Mr Erdogan has lashed out at Germany before, yet the two countries are major trade partners and allies in Nato.
He was furious that the German government refused to let some of his allies campaign for him in Germany before the April vote, which paved the way for him to get sweeping new executive powers. That refusal, he said, was "Nazi-style" behaviour.
Tensions increased after the abortive coup attempt against Mr Erdogan in July 2016, during which at least 240 people died.
President Erdogan blamed the network of US-based cleric Fethullah Gulen over the coup plot, and accused Germany of protecting Gulenists. The cleric has denied any role in the plot.
Mr Erdogan conveyed his message to German Turks via reporters in Istanbul after Friday prayers.
"Give necessary support to political parties that do not engage in enmity against Turkey.
"It is not important whether they are the first or the second party. In a way this is a struggle of honour for all my citizens living in Germany," he said, implying that voters should back far-right or far-left parties.
Chancellor Angela Merkel's centre-right CDU has been governing in coalition with the Mr Gabriel's centre-left SPD. Opinion polls suggest the CDU has a strong lead over the SPD.
The Turkish diaspora in Germany is estimated to number about three million people. "I think they will be giving the necessary lesson to those parties at the ballot box," Mr Erdogan said.
More than 50,000 people have been arrested in Turkey since the coup plot, including hundreds of journalists, opposition politicians, academics and activists.
Mr Erdogan's ruling AK Party has also purged the armed forces, judiciary, police and education sector, sacking more than 140,000 people.
In German media he's also quoted as hinting that Germany can have its citizens released (among others a journalist and a member of Amnesty International) if Germany extradites alleged coup supporters.
The Turkish response to German response (sorry, only English link I could find ad hoc):
https://www.wort.lu/en/politics/international-relations-turkey-slams-arrogant-german-reaction-to-erdogan-poll-call-599822f6a5e74263e13c5f6f
QuoteTurkey slams 'arrogant' German reaction to Erdogan poll call
(AFP) Turkey lashed out on Saturday at the "arrogant" German reaction to comments by President Recep Tayyip Erdogan urging ethnic Turks in Germany to vote against parties in Chancellor Angela Merkel's ruling coalition.
The latest spat between Ankara and Berlin risks propelling a months-long strain on ties between the two NATO allies to a new level ahead of Germany's September 24 general election.
Erdogan said ethnic Turks in the country should not cast their ballots for Merkel's Christian Democratic Union (CDU), the Social Democratic Party (SPD) of Foreign Minister Sigmar Gabriel or the Greens, labelling all three parties "enemies of Turkey."
Gabriel condemned Erdogan's comments as an "unprecedented act of interference" while Merkel's spokesman Steffen Seibert said on Twitter: "We expect foreign governments to not interfere in our internal affairs."
The SPD's chancellor candidate Martin Schulz went even further, saying Erdogan had "lost all sense of proportion."
But Turkish Deputy Prime Minister Bekir Bozdag, who is also the official government spokesman, defended Erdogan's comments saying they were only aimed at Turkish-origin voters in Germany.
"This was expressed very openly and clearly. But then look at these very disrespectful and very arrogant reactions that go beyond the bounds of decency," he said in televised comments. "I want to condemn these reactions and the disrespectful language used."
Bozdag accused Germany of meddling in Turkey's April 16 referendum on expanding Erdogan's powers saying the German "government's attitude was very clear" in backing the 'No' camp.
He also reaffirmed past Turkish accusations against Germany that it was giving refuge both to wanted Kurdistan Workers Party (PKK) militants and suspected plotters in the July 15, 2016, failed coup bid.
"Germany supports the PKK," Bozdag said. "The PKK is a terror group but Germany quite clearly gives it protection."
Analysts said that some 1.2 million people of Turkish origin will have the right to vote in the September polls as German citizens.
And then also:
http://www.business-standard.com/article/news-ians/turkish-born-german-writer-arrested-in-spain-117081900779_1.html
QuoteTurkish born, German writer arrested in Spain
Turkish-born German writer Dogan Akhanli was arrested in the Spanish city of Granada on Saturday by police fulfilling an international arrest warrant issued by Interpol in response to a request by authorities in Turkey.
A police spokesman told Efe news that the arrest took place in the morning at a hotel in the city centre where Akhanli was staying.
The writer was then driven to the police headquarters for the region of Eastern Andalusia and was to be interviewed by a judge in the next few hours, the police official added, without specifying the motive for the arrest cited in the warrant.
After the 1980 coup d'etat in Turkey, Akhanli went into hiding and was a political prisoner in a Turkish military jail between 1985 and 1987. He was accused of armed robbery at an exchange office in 1989.
He fled Turkey in 1991 and settled in Germany.
In August 2010, Akhanli returned to Turkey to visit his dying father, but was arrested at the airport and thrown into prison for four months. But he managed to leave Turkey and returned to Germany after a campaign by civil rights activists and Turkish and German intellectuals.
Who cares? 2/3 of the voters with Turkish roots vote for the SPD.
We should just ignore that troll.
Is SPD pro right wing demagogue? Who knew?
Well actually wait Schroeder was pro- Putin.
http://www.hurriyetdailynews.com/know-your-limits-erdogan-tells-german-fm.aspx?PageID=238&NID=116938&NewsCatID=510
Quote'Know your limits,' Erdoğan tells German FM
President Recep Tayyip Erdoğan on Aug. 19 slammed German Foreign Minister Sigmar Garbiel over his remarks suggesting that Ankara was intervening in German elections, urging him to know his limits.
"Now they have a foreign minister who does not know his limits. Who are you to talk to the President of Turkey? Talk to the Foreign Minister of Turkey. Know your limits. He is trying to teach us a lesson. What is your background in politics? How old are you?" Erdoğan said speaking at his Justice and Development Party's (AKP) provincial advisory council meeting in the Aegean province of Denizli.
Erdoğan said he had sent the dossiers of some 4,500 suspects in Germany to Chancellor Angela Merkel for extradition but they had not been accepted.
"And she wanted one or two people to be sent home by me. Forgive me but you have your legal system and so do we," Erdoğan said.
Erdoğan also reiterated his call on Turkish citizens in Germany to cast their votes to parties that does not engage in enmity against Turkey.
"You should give them the most beautiful lesson by providing your democratic right in the most ideal way on ballots. Do not say that my vote will be in lost if I vote for this or that party. You should vote for those who are not hostile to Turkey," he said.
He added that it was not important for Turkey whether Germany opened its doors, saying that Ankara will gladly approach countries that open their doors.
Erdoğan on Aug. 18 called on Turkish-origin German citizens not to vote for Chancellor Angela Merkel's Christian Democrats, Martin Schulz's Social Democrat Party (SDP) or the Green Party because he said they showed an anti-Turkey stance.
Gabriel criticized the president's remarks saying they constituted an interference in the German general election, which is scheduled to take place on Sept. 24.
Commenting on the German Chancellor's earlier remarks on not pursuing an update for Customs Union with Ankara, Erdoğan said the country would not allow the agreement to be turned into a "tool of political oppression" apart from its own medium.
They should let some deputy answer to that.
He is doing a great job making Turks living in Germany look like enemy foreign agents. I am sure they appreciate that.
Quote from: Valmy on August 19, 2017, 04:36:06 PM
He is doing a great job making Turks living in Germany look like enemy foreign agents. I am sure they appreciate that.
To be fair, the Germans have been looking at them like that since EU negotiations started in 2005. IS THAT A SUICIDE DEBT VEST HES WEARING
The Turkish crayfish I had today were excellent.
QuoteTurkish political refugees flock to Germany, seeking safety
[...]
Germany has become the top destination for political refugees from Turkey since the failed July 15, 2016 coup. Some 5,742 Turkish citizens applied for asylum here last year, more than three times as many as the year before, according to the Interior Ministry. Another 3,000 Turks have requested protection in Germany this year.
[...]
At least 221 diplomats, 280 civil servants and their families have applied for asylum, Germany says. Along with refusing to comply with the extradition requests, Germany has lowered the bar for Turkish asylum-seekers — those given permission to remain increased from 8 percent of applicants last year to more than 23 percent in the first half of 2017.
[...]
https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/europe/turkish-political-refugees-flock-to-germany-seeking-safety/2017/08/20/40649754-8588-11e7-96a7-d178cf3524eb_story.html?utm_term=.6a650d7ae579
That's probably hugely annoying for Erdogan. :)
have them form a government in exile, for shits and giggles.
Quote from: Crazy_Ivan80 on August 20, 2017, 04:39:43 AM
have them form a government in exile, for shits and giggles.
:lol:
That's a genuinely good idea, fits in with whole trolling as diplomacy meme.
Quote from: Zanza on August 19, 2017, 11:23:13 AM
Who cares? 2/3 of the voters with Turkish roots vote for the SPD.
We should just ignore that troll.
It's not like they are going to vote instead for the AfD :P, though I could see some more votes for the useful idiots of Die Linke.