Russo-Ukrainian War 2014-23 and Invasion

[Sheilbh]

It's kind of fascinating. Supporting Ukraine and going all in on all the "Glory to Ukraine" stuff is basically a license to go all out nationalist flag-waving militarist with basically all the fascist nationalist undertones of regular nationalism removed.

Yeah - I've mentioned before but I think there's something of 19th century liberal nationalism to this and the way western countries are responding - Kossuth and Garibaldi getting mobbed on their tours to the US and UK. Just now it's via social media and Zoom. Or, perhaps, Eamon de Valera touring Irish-American communities to whip them up and raise funds for the fight at home (I'm less sure about him, generally).

Although I think a nationalism that ends with fascism is missing that most of the world has only been liberated in the last 100 years or so, largely by some nationalist movement or force. They rarely contained many fascist undertones - although maybe that's coming which would be a concern (I don't think that's right - not sure).

[viper37]

It's kind of fascinating. Supporting Ukraine and going all in on all the "Glory to Ukraine" stuff is basically a license to go all out nationalist flag-waving militarist with basically all the fascist nationalist undertones of regular nationalism removed.

that's because regular nationalism does not have fascist undertones.  Unless you're into empire building, like Russia, then, I suppose, everything and everyone that does not live for the glory of the Empire is a fascist.

[The Minsky Moment]

The world is made up of a plurality of states and a sense of national identity remains the most effective way for individual states to promote and maintain coherence. As long as this remains true, nationalism will always be the flip side of political autonomy and self-determination.  The last century taught the important lesson that nationalism can be perverted to brutal and totalitarian ends, but that does not mean such ends are necessarily inherent in all expressions of national feeling.

[Legbiter]

The world is made up of a plurality of states and a sense of national identity remains the most effective way for individual states to promote and maintain coherence.

Yeah. I for example was absolutely marinated in songs like just below as a kid.

Bros before elven hoes fellow languishbrahs...

The tricky part is while my national pride is set at around a balmy 6.8/10 (love that regular 20th century cargo shipping, next year will be better, Iceland could be worse) my wife is Norwegian and her family tradition is a 9/10... 

[Josquius]

It's kind of fascinating. Supporting Ukraine and going all in on all the "Glory to Ukraine" stuff is basically a license to go all out nationalist flag-waving militarist with basically all the fascist nationalist undertones of regular nationalism removed.

that's because regular nationalism does not have fascist undertones.  Unless you're into empire building, like Russia, then, I suppose, everything and everyone that does not live for the glory of the Empire is a fascist.

I mean... It kind of does.
Nationalism is loving your nation no matter what it does.
Patriotism is loving your nation because of what it does.

[The Larch]

It was recently reported over here how in Italian media the Russian pov regarding the war is quite present and defended by several journalists and other guests in many shows. The Lavrov interview mentioned in the article was pretty jarring, apparently. Glad to see that something is being done about it.

Italy launches inquiry into Kremlin disinformation
Investigation follows suspicions some Russian commentators appearing on TV networks could be on Putin's payroll

An Italian parliamentary committee has begun an investigation into the spread of disinformation, reportedly amid suspicions that some Russian commentators hosted on television networks could be on Vladimir Putin's payroll.

The probe by Copasir, a parliamentary committee for the security of Italy, was triggered after an outcry over a recent interview with Russian foreign minister Sergei Lavrov on Rete 4, a channel operated by the privately owned Mediaset.

Enrico Borghi, a member of Copasir and politician with the centre-left Democratic party, confirmed an investigation was under way but would neither confirm nor deny a report in la Repubblica on Monday that at least three unnamed Russian guests on Italian TV were on the Kremlin's payroll.

Lavrov's interview on 1 May, prompted a diplomatic row with Israel after the minister claimed that Adolf Hitler "had Jewish blood". The screening coincided with the appearance of the prominent pro-Kremlin journalist, Vladimir Solovyev, on the rival channel, La7.

"The fact they were both interviewed on the same night, by private networks, was really quite striking," Borghi said. "But this investigation is not about censorship or limiting press freedom, but this so-called hybrid war of disinformation, interference, the production of fake news and influence, which are objective themes of Russian activities against Nato, and, in particular, against Italy. These elements have increased, unfortunately, in connection with the real war."

The committee will first hear Carlo Fuortes, CEO of the state-owned broadcaster, Rai, on 12 May, followed by Giacomo Lasorella, president of the media watchdog, Agcom, on 17 May.

"Our task is to supervise the information service and security of the country. It's in the context of this activity that we carry out our work," added Borghi.

Since the start of Russia's invasion of Ukraine, Rai and other TV channels have regularly hosted Russian journalists to debate the war, sparking divisions between those who condemn the networks for giving space to "propagandists" and those who argue that it is right to air the opinions of those on both sides of the conflict.

The matter came to a head when Lavrov was interviewed on Rete 4's current affairs programme, Zona bianca, during which he dismissed the massacre in Bucha as fake news and accused the Ukrainian president, Volodymyr Zelenskiy, who is Jewish, of being a Nazi.

It was the first interview Lavrov had given to a European TV network since the beginning of the war.

"It seems we are the only country whose talkshows host Russian figures every day," said Riccardo Magi, a politician with the small leftwing party, Più Europa, said. "Probably, in their evaluation [Italy] has a major weakness, both from the point of view of the authoritativeness of independent information and public opinion; already this type of propaganda had been well infiltrated."

[Eddie Teach]

It's kind of fascinating. Supporting Ukraine and going all in on all the "Glory to Ukraine" stuff is basically a license to go all out nationalist flag-waving militarist with basically all the fascist nationalist undertones of regular nationalism removed.

that's because regular nationalism does not have fascist undertones.  Unless you're into empire building, like Russia, then, I suppose, everything and everyone that does not live for the glory of the Empire is a fascist.

I mean... It kind of does.
Nationalism is loving your nation no matter what it does.
Patriotism is loving your nation because of what it does.

In that case, most nationalism claims to be patriotism.

[grumbler]

I mean... It kind of does.
Nationalism is loving your nation no matter what it does.
Patriotism is loving your nation because of what it does.

In that case, most nationalism claims to be patriotism.

Part of the problem with defining what "nationalism" is is the changing meaning of the word "nation."  Traditionally, it was a term referring to a people, in the broad sense, usually considered to be bound by language, religion, "common destiny," and the like, regardless of which state they lived in.  Germany was a state, "the Germans" was a nation. 

Patriotism is identifying with your country (state); nationalism was, traditionally, identifying with "your people."  With the rise of the nation-state, nationalism became much like patriotism, for some.  Thus, the Ukrainians feeling nationalism based on their country (thus uniting Russian-speakers and Ukrainian speakers), while white nationalists feel nationalism based on their people (thus excluding those speaking a different language, having different ethnicity, etc). 

[Grey Fox]

An interesting twitter thread on the 1st Starlink War and Ukrainians use of artillery.

https://twitter.com/TrentTelenko/status/1523828139012636684

[Sheilbh]

Part of the problem with defining what "nationalism" is is the changing meaning of the word "nation."  Traditionally, it was a term referring to a people, in the broad sense, usually considered to be bound by language, religion, "common destiny," and the like, regardless of which state they lived in.  Germany was a state, "the Germans" was a nation. 

Patriotism is identifying with your country (state); nationalism was, traditionally, identifying with "your people."  With the rise of the nation-state, nationalism became much like patriotism, for some.  Thus, the Ukrainians feeling nationalism based on their country (thus uniting Russian-speakers and Ukrainian speakers), while white nationalists feel nationalism based on their people (thus excluding those speaking a different language, having different ethnicity, etc). 

We should maybe diverge into a separate thread, but I love Imagined Communities and that theory of nationalism. Although if part of that is the rise of print capitalism, then I slightly wonder whether social media and the internet is going to move us to something else (perhaps we're already seeing it in the US) - disaggregated communities, perhaps.

I never like the patriotism/nationalism distinction because I think it's normally just nonsense. But if I had to split them I think patriotism is ambience and vibes, while nationalism is political. Whether that's exclusionary and around "cleansing" your nation, or liberational and freeing the nation from imperial/colonial rule - it's both a form of nationalism. Which is why I think it's nuanced and difficult and depends on the context, rather than simply bad while patriotism is tolerable.

[Barrister]

An interesting twitter thread on the 1st Starlink War and Ukrainians use of artillery.

https://twitter.com/TrentTelenko/status/1523828139012636684

I was just reading that when you posted this link.

It is interesting.  It attributes UA success in artillery to a Ukrainian homegrown distributed ap, plus combined with SapceX's Starlink satellites.

It's all well outside of my expertise so I can't speak to it's accuracy, but it's an interesting read.

It also takes some gratuitous shots as US JAG lawyers for being the reason US artillery strikes are so slow.

[HisMajestyBOB]

An interesting twitter thread on the 1st Starlink War and Ukrainians use of artillery.

https://twitter.com/TrentTelenko/status/1523828139012636684

I was just reading that when you posted this link.

It is interesting.  It attributes UA success in artillery to a Ukrainian homegrown distributed ap, plus combined with SapceX's Starlink satellites.

It's all well outside of my expertise so I can't speak to it's accuracy, but it's an interesting read.

It also takes some gratuitous shots as US JAG lawyers for being the reason US artillery strikes are so slow.

Maybe we should have actually artillerymen operate our artillery instead of lawyers.

[Barrister]

Maybe we should have actually artillerymen operate our artillery instead of lawyers.

And maybe you should shut your damn mouth.


(I think I always use sarcastically)

But something I've pieced tgether from reading some comments from US and Canadian volunteers in Ukraine is this war is completely unlike any the US has fought since, I dunno - Korea?  Every military action since then has been asymmetrical, with the US having an overwhelming lead in firepower and the US fighting a counter-insurgency-type war.  In those kind of circumstances it makes sense to be far more judicious in your use of artillery strikes.

[viper37]

The last century taught the important lesson that nationalism can be perverted to brutal and totalitarian ends, but that does not mean such ends are necessarily inherent in all expressions of national feeling.

True.  That century, some before that and the current one also proved religion can be perverted to brutal and totalitarian ends.  Nothing really new here, humans have been waging war to one another since, well, prehistoric times. 

[viper37]

It's kind of fascinating. Supporting Ukraine and going all in on all the "Glory to Ukraine" stuff is basically a license to go all out nationalist flag-waving militarist with basically all the fascist nationalist undertones of regular nationalism removed.

that's because regular nationalism does not have fascist undertones.  Unless you're into empire building, like Russia, then, I suppose, everything and everyone that does not live for the glory of the Empire is a fascist.

I mean... It kind of does.
Nationalism is loving your nation no matter what it does.
Patriotism is loving your nation because of what it does.

Patriotism is loving your country.  Nationalism is loving your nation.  One can be an American Patriot. One can not be a Franco-American patriot, Franco-America is not a country, nor a well defined territory where a majority of these people live.