Russo-Ukrainian War 2014-23 and Invasion

[Josquius]

Patriotism is loving your country.  Nationalism is loving your nation.  One can be an American Patriot. One can not be a Franco-American patriot, Franco-America is not a country, nor a well defined territory where a majority of these people live.

Nor is it a nation.

I don't see there as being too much difference between being a nationalist for a entity with currently existing well recognised borders vs. being a nationalist for a entity which doesn't hold the borders you claim it should, whether that be the very different in many other ways greater Serbia irredentalists or pro Catalan independence folks.

Part of the problem with defining what "nationalism" is is the changing meaning of the word "nation."  Traditionally, it was a term referring to a people, in the broad sense, usually considered to be bound by language, religion, "common destiny," and the like, regardless of which state they lived in.  Germany was a state, "the Germans" was a nation. 

Patriotism is identifying with your country (state); nationalism was, traditionally, identifying with "your people."  With the rise of the nation-state, nationalism became much like patriotism, for some.  Thus, the Ukrainians feeling nationalism based on their country (thus uniting Russian-speakers and Ukrainian speakers), while white nationalists feel nationalism based on their people (thus excluding those speaking a different language, having different ethnicity, etc). 

We should maybe diverge into a separate thread, but I love Imagined Communities and that theory of nationalism. Although if part of that is the rise of print capitalism, then I slightly wonder whether social media and the internet is going to move us to something else (perhaps we're already seeing it in the US) - disaggregated communities, perhaps.

Yes. I do think we're heading towards a 'Diamond Age' kind of situation.
Also a key factor in all this is the move towards remote working- there's going to need to be big changes in quite how taxation works on such location independent people.

I never like the patriotism/nationalism distinction because I think it's normally just nonsense. But if I had to split them I think patriotism is ambience and vibes, while nationalism is political. Whether that's exclusionary and around "cleansing" your nation, or liberational and freeing the nation from imperial/colonial rule - it's both a form of nationalism. Which is why I think it's nuanced and difficult and depends on the context, rather than simply bad while patriotism is tolerable.

The terms themselves are debatable but I do think there is a clear difference between two types of thing as I described. Big difference between loving your country/people/whatever and wanting the best for it, being upset when it takes a wrong turn, etc.... vs supporting it like a football team no matter what.

[HisMajestyBOB]

Maybe we should have actually artillerymen operate our artillery instead of lawyers.

And maybe you should shut your damn mouth.

If they're anything like the lawyers I've worked with, the decision to fire will have to go through several rounds of edits before being finalized.

[grumbler]

If strict ROE is important, then you need to get your ROE guys (who are JAG types) involved in decisions to shoot.  If it's not important, then you don't.  Ukraine is fighting an existential threat, so ROE isn't very high on their list of priorities.  The US was fighting a war of "hearts and minds" and so ROE was very high on the list of priorities.

Horses for courses.

[Jacob]

If strict ROE is important, then you need to get your ROE guys (who are JAG types) involved in decisions to shoot.  If it's not important, then you don't.  Ukraine is fighting an existential threat, so ROE isn't very high on their list of priorities.  The US was fighting a war of "hearts and minds" and so ROE was very high on the list of priorities.

Horses for courses.

Indeed.

Though if there's a way to speed things up but keep the ROE, that'd seem worthwhile.

As I understood it, part of the Ukrainian ability to be speedy is that they so many sources of information - via app uploads from many sources. I got the impression that all of that information is collated in one central place, where the decisions on targets are being made and then relayed to the firing units. It seems like you could potentially integrate ROE / JAG vetting at the central decision making place (possibly aided by information systems) and designate targets as acceptable prior to the requests coming in.

I get the impression that the complaint in the US is that the loop goes "hey we want to fire at XYZ"... [a long time passes with vetting, processing the request]... "okay, fire". But if there's enough information available to identify targets early, they could potentially start the approval process earlier as well.

Just a thought....

[Razgovory]

If strict ROE is important, then you need to get your ROE guys (who are JAG types) involved in decisions to shoot.  If it's not important, then you don't.  Ukraine is fighting an existential threat, so ROE isn't very high on their list of priorities.  The US was fighting a war of "hearts and minds" and so ROE was very high on the list of priorities.

Horses for courses.

I admit it took me a bit to figure out that "ROE guys" were fish people.

[The Brain]

Because they oppose wading?

[grumbler]

If strict ROE is important, then you need to get your ROE guys (who are JAG types) involved in decisions to shoot.  If it's not important, then you don't.  Ukraine is fighting an existential threat, so ROE isn't very high on their list of priorities.  The US was fighting a war of "hearts and minds" and so ROE was very high on the list of priorities.

Horses for courses.

Indeed.

Though if there's a way to speed things up but keep the ROE, that'd seem worthwhile.

As I understood it, part of the Ukrainian ability to be speedy is that they so many sources of information - via app uploads from many sources. I got the impression that all of that information is collated in one central place, where the decisions on targets are being made and then relayed to the firing units. It seems like you could potentially integrate ROE / JAG vetting at the central decision making place (possibly aided by information systems) and designate targets as acceptable prior to the requests coming in.

I get the impression that the complaint in the US is that the loop goes "hey we want to fire at XYZ"... [a long time passes with vetting, processing the request]... "okay, fire". But if there's enough information available to identify targets early, they could potentially start the approval process earlier as well.

Just a thought....

I am sure that the US system is overly bureaucratic (anti-insurgent campaigns are political, and politicians want to cross every T), but maybe there's a lot to be learned from the Ukrainian experience... if the US Army wants to learn it.

[grumbler]

I admit it took me a bit to figure out that "ROE guys" were fish people.

eggszackly

[The Minsky Moment]

Maybe we should have actually artillerymen operate our artillery instead of lawyers.

Its either lawyers (US) or software coders (Ukraine). What do artillerymen have to do with it?

[Malthus]

I admit it took me a bit to figure out that "ROE guys" were fish people.

eggszackly

Egg-sac-ly?

[Jacob]

I admit it took me a bit to figure out that "ROE guys" were fish people.

eggszackly

Egg-sac-ly?

Yeah, that's the yolk.

[Rex Francorum]

It's kind of fascinating. Supporting Ukraine and going all in on all the "Glory to Ukraine" stuff is basically a license to go all out nationalist flag-waving militarist with basically all the fascist nationalist undertones of regular nationalism removed.

that's because regular nationalism does not have fascist undertones.  Unless you're into empire building, like Russia, then, I suppose, everything and everyone that does not live for the glory of the Empire is a fascist.

I mean... It kind of does.
Nationalism is loving your nation no matter what it does.
Patriotism is loving your nation because of what it does.

Patriotism is loving your country.  Nationalism is loving your nation.  One can be an American Patriot. One can not be a Franco-American patriot, Franco-America is not a country, nor a well defined territory where a majority of these people live.

Nationalism is an ideology : Roughly, the reading of the national group past and present and proposals for the national group future. Usually, nationalism cannot sustain that much itself. Its expression is often associated with either a liberal or a conservative project.


Patriotism is merely the expression of love, proudness for your national group.

[Jacob]

Our man Telenko is really credible when he speaks of logistics. I've found that when he wanders off to topics outside that area, he's a little less of an authority. I don't have the knowledge myself to challenge any of the military stuff he's talking about (but he occasionally talks other stuff and that's often BS in my view).

However, on the "JAGS is fucking up our artillery" point here's a bit of a rebuttal I found more convincing than his original assertion:

I'm a US Artillery Officer so this issue is near and dear to my heart. However, this just isn't accurate, sorry. (Not that the Ukrainian Army isn't kicking ass with this cool innovation, they totally are, Slava Ukraine!) The primary cause of the delay that was so prevalent in Afghanistan was not legal or ROE limitations, it was 100% having no good system for clearing air space. The time required to clear the 40km flight path of a himars rocket or the 20km trajectory of a 155 shell with multiple air assets in the sky at any given time was the cause of these 30 minute delays. Part of that issue comes down to a lack of interoperability between the Army and the Air Force. (Note in Iraq where the air support was much more likely to be Army aviation such as Apaches, this was not nearly as big of a problem). The US Army has developed a new cell called a "JAGIC" Joint Air Ground Integration Cell to remedy this problem and has been able to successfully reduce the time required to clear fires. The link below describes it in depth. JAGICs are now present on all division staffs and being a joint Army/Air Force cell, have been able to rapidly decrease the time to clear fires. (Additionally, they put a JAG legal officer in the cell, so the legal signoff is sitting right there with the Army arty and Air Force air control people.)

https://www.benning.army.mil/armor/eARMOR/content/issues/2016/OCT_DEC/4Kane16.pdf

Additionally the claim that the software is ancient mainframe software from the 60s is wildly inaccurate. The tool we use is called AFATDs and it was originally built in the 80s, not the 60s, and is in no way a mainframe system. (For what it's worth I'm now a software engineer on the civilian side and I know what mainframe means.) Do I love AFATDs? Fuck no. It's constantly being updated, but I would happily see it replaced with a better tool. Even up until version 5 something it was still incapable of doing coordinated illumination missions. That said, it is not a limiting factor in our ability to rapidly process fire missions, or our ability to accurately mass fires.

https://asc.army.mil/web/portfolio-item/advanced-field-artillery-tactical-data-system-afatds/

Edit: Additionally, he talks about the UA system sending the mission to the nearest gun, what's interesting is AFATDs can already do that, he might not be aware. It will send the mission to the artillery unit best able to process the fire mission and available to shoot. (Some guns might be direct support to another unit with higher priority, or on a hot status for counterfire missions etc. and therefore not be available for an ad hoc mission).

Edit 2: Additionally regarding Skylink, US Army systems in theater have been able to do this for a long time, see this article from 2014. We also don't need to, we can process fire missions over Harris HF radios. For example, I personally have processed HIMARS fire missions over Harris radio sending missions from San Marcos, TX to firing units in Wichita Falls, TX, a distance of over 300 miles. (Again, this solution the UA is using over Skylink is innovative and fucking rad, I'm not criticizing it, just correcting for accuracy about US capabilities).
https://gdmissionsystems.com/articles/2014/12/01/win-t-enables-rapid-fire-missions

Not sure how to link directly to an individual reddit post, but it's the top post in this thread at the moment - by u/bidpappa1

[The Brain]

AFATD? Maybe they should let someone who isn't terminally horny name their systems.

[Eddie Teach]

They figured only terminally horny people would make the connection.