Israel-Hamas War 2023

[viper37]

Where are they going to live?

In Gaza. You seem confused, frankly.

When you see signs talking about the right to return, that is what they are talking about.

The right to return is the belief that if you just really strongly insist, wars and their outcomes don't matter. There is a reason non-imbecile cultures (and I struggle to use that word for the Germans, who are very imbecilic in most ways) don't insist on a right to return and just move on with their lives. I don't know of any German right to return groups for the Eastern Territories (and they held 13 million Germans who were displaced after 1945.)

The Palestinians should have gone to Jordan and Egypt, Jordan and Egypt should have broadly accepted them and told them that they had lost a bad war and now had to accept the reality of Israel. Instead they spent decades keeping them penned up like animals and telling them "soon" the big war would come and they'd finally finish Israel off. I will note that Egypt, in particular has a significant moral responsibility because the Egyptians were the largest, most powerful Arab state in the 1950s-1980s, and were the party most directly responsible for spearheading the disastrous wars against Israel that resulted in all the Palestinian land losses from 1948-1972. Egypt is also a huge country population wise, and could have actually just absorbed all the Palestinians.

Eventually Egypt and Jordan chilled out on Israel and the Palestinians were left in their pens.

What Egypt and Jordan have done to the Palestinians--and recognize they were just the front lines of the greater Arab world, would have been akin to the Germans making the displaced Eastern provinces Germans live in small ghettoized areas on the eastern border, never able to accrue normal citizenship or other rights.

So the West, the US in particular, should have stopped helping Israel long ago, since that whole right of return was derived from an imbecile culture?  Jews should have stayed in Europe, damn the pogroms, or the widespread destruction of Western Europe, and fuck about the expulsion of some of the Arabic countries, they should have emigrated to wherever they were wanted?

It's a very strange belief coming from you.  I'd never had expected it.  You are a strange men to follow.  You have a weird conception of the world.

[viper37]

Fun fact I picked up on NPR a while back: in addition to the Quatari money that had been going to Gaza, the Palestinian Authority was (presumably still is) paying the salaries of 50,000 people.  So I'm guessing like those Health Ministry folks are paid by the PA.

There are still Fatah officials in the strip, but AFAIK, none in the higher echelons.
One article mentionning it

It talks of Israel suspending part of its money transfers to the PA, but mentions Fatah officials in the strip.  Other sources mention exlusively the Hamas governance in Gaza, with no governance role by Fatah over there.  It seems complicated.

[OttoVonBismarck]

So the West, the US in particular, should have stopped helping Israel long ago, since that whole right of return was derived from an imbecile culture?  Jews should have stayed in Europe, damn the pogroms, or the widespread destruction of Western Europe, and fuck about the expulsion of some of the Arabic countries, they should have emigrated to wherever they were wanted?

It's a very strange belief coming from you.  I'd never had expected it.  You are a strange men to follow.  You have a weird conception of the world.

They aren't remotely comparable, right? Israel is a widely recognized state with, at least the armistice line, recognized as valid borders by a large chunk of the world. Israel's Jewish right of migration basically says "if you're a Jew, you can move to and live in Israel." The U.S. has no dog in that fight.

The Palestinian right of return says "we have a right to land we lost in a war, forever, no matter what, including land that basically everyone agrees is purely Israeli under the 1947 UN partition plan."

I'll be honest, it helps me understand how right I am and how wrong Hamas supporters are when I argue with them--the intentional dishonesty and deception literally seeping out of every pro-Hamas / anti-Jewish poster here demonstrates the righteousness of supporting Israel's right to exist and supporting Israel against a dangerous and evil terrorist group.

[Admiral Yi]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NP6raWKH7DA

CNN reporter inside hospital taken over by IDF.

[viper37]

They aren't remotely comparable, right? Israel is a widely recognized state with, at least the armistice line, recognized as valid borders by a large chunk of the world. Israel's Jewish right of migration basically says "if you're a Jew, you can move to and live in Israel." The U.S. has no dog in that fight.

I was more teasing you than anything. Unlike you, I recognize that both people have a right to exist in their own country and form their own nation.  I don't hate one nation or one religion in particular, only the fanatics.


Israel is a widely recognized state today.  It wasn't always so.

The idea of Israel began because some people declared, mostly Jewish people all around the world, that there was an inherent right of return to Palestine for the Jewish people all around the world, beginning in the late 19th century.  From there, they collected money mostly from their own people at first.  


But following the events of WWII, the funding came from all over the world to find sanctuary for the Jewish refugees and the UN drew a partition plan for both nations, following years of unrest, civil war and massacres on both sides.  Although the civilian Jewish population overwhelmingly agreed with the proposal and the Arabic population largely rejected it (due to their fears of continued marginalization and violence from the Jewish population), the Jewish elite/leadership decided to unitaleraly declare its independence, knowing it would lead to war, and hoping it would led them to gain more territories than the partition plan allowed (see Ben Gurion declaration on the matter).  

The Jewish militias had been preparing for this for many years already, and Stalin's cooperation insured them of getting access heavy equipment.  It was a no brainer for them. Funds and equipment where there.  A few massacres here and there would convince enough Arabs to leave to insure there was enough lands for their population after the war.  Conflicting idea arose over what the borders should be, and they left it intentionally vague as to allow them to acquire what they should gain by war and expulsions.

Should the Arab have won, a similar scenario would have been likely.  But it would have been evil, because they were Arabs.  Which I can never understand.  One side committing atrocities is justified, but the others is always terrorism. Meh.

Anyway, back to our muttons: Israel was created by a desire of the Jewish people to return to what they thought of their homeland.  A right to return across many generations, across many centuries.

It is not very dissimilar to what many now Palestinians feel: they've been expelled of the place they've lived for centuries, if not millenias, even if they were nomads, that is general area they resided, and they want to go back where they were living.  Or at least be compensated for their loss and forced expulsion.

Israel could very well have been created as a secular bi-national state with equal rights for all Arabs and Jewish.  But the founding members of Israel insisted on the religious nature of their state, and wanted it as a refuge for all Jews all over their world.  And a good portion of them were members of the Irgun, the militias that enjoyed killing Arabs.  The militia that became a founding block for what became the IDF and the now Likud party, seen as too moderate by many Jewish electors.

But it's all good, because they are killing Muslims, and Islam is an evil religion, so who cares really?  If a Jewish group sing their praise to Yahwe after a Palestinian toddler is killed, it's all good.  If a group of Palestinians enjoy the murder of an Israeli civilians, it means 100% of Palestinians support the Hamas.

See, it's that double standard I have a problem.

Not with the Jews or the Israelis.  The difference in the treatment of both group.  Both commit atrocities.  And Netanyahu has been very clear in his intentions over the years. You can trace back his intent on the Palestinians since the beginning of his political career.  You can find exactly what he thinks of every Israeli who doesn't share his opinions: they are traitors.  And every Palestinian who oppose Israel's policies is a terrorist.

This, I disagree with.

I may disagree with the left on a lot of thing, but I'll respect their right to protest peacefully and not get sniped for it.

When people get sniped simply for giving assistance to an injured person, we're entering Russian's territory of evilness.  We're no longer in a democratic state.  And when you start calling your opponents traitors and blame them for your own failures to act as a leader, you're no better than the little orange shit mounting coups and trying to avoid prison in your country.

[viper37]

Where are they going to live?

In Gaza. You seem confused, frankly.

Try America.

You seem confused, frankly.

[Razgovory]

Viper, Israel is declared a Jewish state on the basis of nationality.  Just like the Arabs have their states based on Arab as the Nationality. 

[viper37]

Viper, Israel is declared a Jewish state on the basis of nationality.  Just like the Arabs have their states based on Arab as the Nationality.

You hate nationalism, but you make an exception here.

There's an Israeli nationality now.

There could be a Palestinian nationality if there was a state of Palestine, like a state of Israel.  But OvB said there should not be a state of Palestine.  The same position as the government as Israel.  I guess he'll volunteer to take in some Palestinian refugees in his city?

[Razgovory]

The fact that you thought Israel was founded on religion and is some kind of religious country (it's like 54% secular) explains so much.

[viper37]

The fact that you thought Israel was founded on religion and is some kind of religious country (it's like 54% secular) explains so much.

I'll get to that in a moment.  First, on the border question:

The borders were not specified in the Declaration, although its 14th paragraph indicated a willingness to cooperate in the implementation of the UN Partition Plan. The original draft had declared that the borders would be decided by the UN partition plan. While this was supported by Rosen and Bechor-Shalom Sheetrit, it was opposed by Ben-Gurion and Zisling, with Ben-Gurion stating, "We accepted the UN Resolution, but the Arabs did not. They are preparing to make war on us. If we defeat them and capture western Galilee or territory on both sides of the road to Jerusalem, these areas will become part of the state. Why should we obligate ourselves to accept boundaries that in any case the Arabs don't accept?"^[8] The inclusion of the designation of borders in the text was dropped after the provisional government of Israel, the Minhelet HaAm, voted 5–4 against it.^[9] The Revisionists, committed to a Jewish state on both sides of the Jordan River (that is, including Transjordan), wanted the phrase "within its historic borders" included, but were unsuccessful.

There was a clear intent from the start to grab as much territory as they could, with a faction wanting all of Palestine for themselves.

Religion
The second major issue was over the inclusion of God in the last section of the document, with the draft using the phrase "and placing our trust in the Almighty". The two rabbis, Shapira and Yehuda Leib Maimon, argued for its inclusion, saying that it could not be omitted, with Shapira supporting the wording "God of Israel" or "the Almighty and Redeemer of Israel".^[8] It was strongly opposed by Zisling, a member of the secularist Mapam. In the end the phrase "Rock of Israel" was used, which could be interpreted as either referring to God, or the land of Eretz Israel, Ben-Gurion saying "Each of us, in his own way, believes in the 'Rock of Israel' as he conceives it. I should like to make one request: Don't let me put this phrase to a vote." Although its use was still opposed by Zisling, the phrase was accepted without a vote.

Other items
At the meeting on 14 May, several other members of Moetzet HaAm suggested additions to the document. Meir Vilner wanted it to denounce the British Mandate and military but Sharett said it was out of place. Meir Argov pushed to mention the Displaced Persons camps in Europe and to guarantee freedom of language. Ben-Gurion agreed with the latter but noted that Hebrew should be the main language of the state.
The debate over wording did not end completely even after the Declaration had been made. Declaration signer Meir David Loewenstein later claimed, "It ignored our sole right to Eretz Israel, which is based on the covenant of the Lord with Abraham, our father, and repeated promises in the Tanach. It ignored the aliya of the Ramban and the students of the Vilna Gaon and the Ba'al Shem Tov, and the [rights of] Jews who lived in the 'Old Yishuv'."^[16]

Israel is a gender-neutral name of Hebrew origin. Derived from the Hebrew Yisrael, it means "God perseveres"

Everything references religion.  It evolved as a secular state, because, well, people evolve over time.  I'm sure there are many more atheists today living in Israel than there were in 1948, as I'm sure we would find in France, Canada or the US.  Doesn't changed the fact that the Pledge of Allegiance of the US includes the phrase One Nation under God, that the Canadian Constitution has a reference to God and so on.
That does not scream of secularity.

Jewish being both a cultural identity and a religion, Israel was founded as both. Any person born of a Jewish mother who has converted to another religion is no longer considered Jewish and is therefore considered a foreigner in the eyes of Israel.  While any other Jewish person may freely enter Israel and immediately become a citizen, no matter the origin or the language spoken, any other person must live there 3 years as a permanent resident and demonstrate proficiency in Hebrew.  Messianic Jews are also not considered Jewish, for the purpose of this law, unlike other branches of Judaism, but are considered Christians.  Any non Jewish person who becomes an Israeli citizen must immediately renounce all other citizenship.

Palestinians married to Israelis can not become naturalized citizens of Israel.  Ever. 

Any other Muslim willing to immigrate to Israel could do so in only two ways:
1) Renounce his faith and convert to Judaism before moving to Israel
2) Marry and Israel citizen

So much for secularity, eh?

You have to be careful about what people say about a country and what happens in practice.


The US may have a huge problem with religion, but it won't discriminate on who it admits based on religion.  If I'm a Canadian citizen of Islamic faith, all things being equal, I stand equal chance of being admitted to the US as a Canadian citizen of Christian faith.  In fact, I doubt it's even a question when I apply for an immigration visa.

[Grey Fox]

Viper, they lost the wars.

We lost the wars too and we paid the price of them until the 70s.

[viper37]

Viper, they lost the wars.

We lost the wars too and we paid the price of them until the 70s.

I don't think the war is over, that's the problem.  And Israel can't claim to have moral superiority if that's how they want to act, since there are still Palestinians getting chased from their homes.

[Crazy_Ivan80]

Viper, they lost the wars.

We lost the wars too and we paid the price of them until the 70s.

I don't think the war is over, that's the problem.  And Israel can't claim to have moral superiority if that's how they want to act, since there are still Palestinians getting chased from their homes.

Yeah, the Muslims don't think the war is over either. There are still jews after all. And after that there's still Christians and others that haven't submitted the Muslim rule. Dar-al-harb eh.

[Tamas]

I am really hating the dishonest ambiguity around this main hospital. If the people calling it a crime and pinning it on Israel, then say it clearly that they think the IDF is blockading a hospital and taking potshots at it for fun or to starve everyone inside to death.

Because if that is not the case, then it means the IDF has surrounded the hospital because Hamas is inside there. In which case the situation is entirely Hamas' fault.

I don't know if I posted this before, but the 7 October attack, or rather the popular world response to it has really radicalised me on this conflict. Over the last several years I was growing quite disdainful of Israel seeing their own Orban in charge and the aggressive settlements etc. Well that is now all gone. I still despise Netanyahu obviously, but the world response to 7 October has very clearly shown that the siege mentality of Israel is 100% justified. One of if not THE worst terror attack in modern history, and it is forgotten by most of world opinion in a matter of hours. Worse, it made huge swats of various Western (!) European societies to come out and rally against ISRAEL for mounting a military response to prevent such an attack happening again. Making the streets of London an other major cities look like old news reports from various Middle East countries when Big Baddie Israel did something wrong.

I am sorry I just cannot stomach this. Nobody, and I mean literally nobody on the so-called pro-Palestinian side is calling for Palestinians to rally against Hamas, no mention of the shocking deliberate massacre of civilians in Israel, with Hamas publicly declaring they are to continue doing these attacks when and as long as they are able. Nothing. Infuriating double standards.

It has made me reevaluate my thoughts on Israeli occupation since 1967 as well. You know, there's always a lot of talk about how illegal that is, what there is no talk about is what it was a response to - the well established fact that it was a preventive war preventing an Arab offensive against them. I cannot look at this latest massacre (to ignore all the rocket attacks etc) and say  "oh yeah they should totally let Hamas creep up on them and retreat to 1948 borders".

Just screw this. The Muslim world (which has now quite clearly showed that it is well present as a cultural bloc inside European countries) has been treating the existence of Israel as a cultural/civilisational conflict since 1948. I am increasingly willing to accept their point of view.

[Threviel]

Yeah, I'm feeling about the same.

This shit-show actually implies that all the racist scum were correctish back in the day. Letting in a large number of middle eastern muslims into our midst might have been a gigantic mistake. And I hate that.