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Enjoying it much. There is another wedding with Frey's in it.

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Quote[info]grrm wrote:
Jun. 29th, 2011 02:38 pm (UTC)
Actually, if you consider "surfing the internet" as the 21st century analogue of "walking down the street," spoilers ARE falling from the sky, in all kinds of unlikely places.

Edited at 2011-06-29 02:38 pm (UTC)

If there is to be such a thread can we not have like


PAGE 341



OMFG! RHAEGAR WAS A HERMAPHRODITTE AND IS JON SNOW'S MOTHER

There are more Targeryans than Starks. :bleeding:

Very confusing start.  How did Samwell Tarley get back up north again?  Seems the book backtracks and starts before the third book ends.  Chronology gets confused as a result.

So far, am about 150 pages in, and feel that maybe 50-75 of those pages shouldn't be in the book.  Once again, there are too many characters, too many agendas, too many anecdotes, and too many viewpoints.

Quote from: grumbler on July 12, 2011, 07:14:05 PM
Very confusing start.  How did Samwell Tarley get back up north again?  Seems the book backtracks and starts before the third book ends.  Chronology gets confused as a result.

Sam didn't leave until book 4.  The scene is the same, except from Jon's perspective.

I hate it.
Why is Sam in the wall?
I thought Aemon was dead...

My God, the books are coming out so slowly that they are going backwards now.

Was Podrick Payne and Brienne confirmed killed?

Quote from: Razgovory on July 14, 2011, 07:23:59 AM
Was Podrick Payne and Brienne confirmed killed?

Not yet, and I am around p. 250.

Quote from: grumbler on July 14, 2011, 11:10:19 AM

Quote from: Razgovory on July 14, 2011, 07:23:59 AM
Was Podrick Payne and Brienne confirmed killed?

Not yet, and I am around p. 250.

I rather liked those two.

Quote from: Razgovory on July 14, 2011, 11:16:33 AM
I rather liked those two.

Martin says in the intro that this book extends past the end of A feast for Crows, so you may get to know in this thread what really happened to those two.

Since this is the fully spoiled thread... from the jamie chapter

QuoteHe posted sentries to see that no one left the confines of the village. He sent out scouts as well,
to make certain no enemy took them unawares. It was near midnight when two came riding back with a
woman they had taken captive. "She rode up bold as you please, m'lord, demanding words with you."
Jaime scrambled to his feet. "My lady. I had not thought to see you again so soon." Gods be
good, she looks ten years older than when I saw her last. And what's happened to her face? "That
bandage ... you've been wounded ..."
"A bite." She touched the hilt of her sword, the sword that he had given her. Oathkeeper. "My
lord, you gave me a quest."
"The girl. Have you found her?"
"I have," said Brienne, Maid of Tarth. "Where is she?"
"A day's ride. I can take you to her, ser ... but you will need to come alone. Elsewise, the Hound
will kill her."

So, Brienne still lives. Presumably Pod and Ser Hyle as well.

Big ass spoiler follows.

No color since it doesn usually work.

Will Melisandre revive Jon?

Quote from: Grey Fox on July 14, 2011, 12:13:49 PM
Big ass spoiler follows.

No color since it doesn usually work.

Will Melisandre revive Jon?

:lol:

i knew i shouldn't have checked this thread. if this really does happen, then some languishite's prediction (i forget who made it) might be coming true

Quote from: LaCroix on July 14, 2011, 03:48:33 PM

Quote from: Grey Fox on July 14, 2011, 12:13:49 PM
Big ass spoiler follows.

No color since it doesn usually work.

Will Melisandre revive Jon?

:lol:

i knew i shouldn't have checked this thread. if this really does happen, then some languishite's prediction (i forget who made it) might be coming true

I said Melisandre would revive Jon from death meaning that he was free from his oath.

if that turns out to be case, then i'll be a bit disappointed. it's such a cop-out

Quote from: LaCroix on July 14, 2011, 04:41:48 PM
if that turns out to be case, then i'll be a bit disappointed. it's such a cop-out

I wouldn't, I said this months before ADWD came out.

Finished it. Lots of good history in this one.

This book is so confusing.....

Quote from: Siege on July 14, 2011, 09:03:22 PM
This book is so confusing.....

I suggest a picture book, hint, it's not about Vargo Hoat (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Pet_Goat).

Quote from: Viking on July 14, 2011, 09:08:33 PM

Quote from: Siege on July 14, 2011, 09:03:22 PM
This book is so confusing.....

I suggest a picture book, hint, it's not about Vargo Hoat (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Pet_Goat).

Thanks for the flashback.
No go and DIE in silence.

Quote from: Siege on July 14, 2011, 09:13:41 PM

Thanks for the flashback.
No go and DIE in silence.

If I die I will do so complaining loudly if it is not In my own bed, with a belly full of wine and a maiden's mouth around my cock, at the age of eighty

theon spoilers-

poor, poor, poor theon. his chapters were painful, but at least he survived and is back with family. even if ramsay castrated him, cut off some fingers and toes and permanently broke him :(

Quote from: LaCroix on July 15, 2011, 01:51:52 AM
theon spoilers-

poor, poor, poor theon. his chapters were painful, but at least he survived and is back with family. even if ramsay castrated him, cut off some fingers and toes and permanently broke him :(

Gordon Ramsay is not to be trifled with :p

I'm up to the second Tyrion chapter. Not reading the thread but-

It really is painfully clear in places that this runs alongside the fourth book and they were meant to be one and the same. I recall the fourth had the same problem with speaking of events due to be covered in this and giving them away (Davos being killed- unless that was a trick).
I really do support the fan nattering of rearranging them into one big book to read in a 'correct' order.

Janos Slynt killed Jon with Lord Mormonts sword!!!!!

That boy with Tyrion in the Shy Maiden riverboat traveling down river dyes his hair blue.
I'll say his real hair below that is white, as in Targaryen white.

The Theon spoilers make me less willing to read on. I kinda liked the guy.

Unless the torture chapters are more of a BDSM variety. :perv:  :ph34r:

Quote from: Martinus on July 15, 2011, 03:34:35 PM
The Theon spoilers make me less willing to read on. I kinda liked the guy.

Unless the torture chapters are more of a BDSM variety. :perv:  :ph34r:

aside from theon recalling his time in the dungeons here and there, there are no real torture scenes. the castration bit isn't explicitly stated, though hinted at about as many times as renly's sexuality :P

Aegon!
The son of Rhaegar is alive and heading to Volantis to link up with Daenerys.
What a cop out.
Reviving the Targaryen male line is bad storytelling, in my opinion.
GRRM is disappointing me once again. This is becoming a soap opera.

I enjoyed the book much more than the last one, but not nearly as much as the first three.  Martin's use of resurrections and false corpses has become so routine that I don't care if characters I have come to identify with die, because death is no big deal, it seems.

Far too much use of cliffhangers and phony to end chapters.  That stuff only works when used sparingly.

Also, as I noted earlier, still way too many characters and plot lines.  We could have not had Theon at all, and the Melisandre chapter added exactly zero, other than to ruin an interesting suspense about the extent to which she was what she claimed to be.  All of the Arya and Asha stuff could easily be skipped, as could Davos Seaforth and Quentyn Martell.  The book would be much better if tighter.  Martin could publish all of these snippets as short stories or on the web.

Someone asked:  yes, Brienne reappears (as far as we can tell, though it is in just one scene), but we don't find out how she came back to life.

Did the Targaryen had more than one wife at the same time?
Is there any way Rhaegar could have legally married Lyanna to make Jon a trueborn heir?

And ok, we got Jon and Aegon as the two sons of Rhaegar, but why Dany?
Dany is Rhaegar's sister.
Is there any way Dany could be Rhaegar's daughter?

I really don't understand where GRRM is going with Rhaegar's prophecy.
I don't see how losing the throne helps the Targaryens save Westeros.

Quote from: Siege on July 15, 2011, 06:14:47 PM
Did the Targaryen had more than one wife at the same time?

Yes, but not in recent times.

QuoteIs there any way Rhaegar could have legally married Lyanna to make Jon a trueborn heir?

The problem wasn't Rhaedar's ability to marry Lyanna per se; it was that Lyanna was already promised to Robert, and didn't have her father's permission to marry Rhaegar.  She couldn't marry Rhaegar, even if he could marry her.

QuoteIs there any way Dany could be Rhaegar's daughter?

I don't believe so.  She was definitely Rhaella's daughter, born quitea while after Rhaegar's death and some lesser time after after Elia Martell's death.  Plus, Rhaella died in childbirth, so there could be no question of Rhaella faking a pregnancy to cover up the fact that Daenarys wasn't hers.

Quote from: grumbler on July 15, 2011, 05:48:03 PM
I enjoyed the book much more than the last one, but not nearly as much as the first three.  Martin's use of resurrections and false corpses has become so routine that I don't care if characters I have come to identify with die, because death is no big deal, it seems.

Far too much use of cliffhangers and phony to end chapters.  That stuff only works when used sparingly.

Also, as I noted earlier, still way too many characters and plot lines.  We could have not had Theon at all, and the Melisandre chapter added exactly zero, other than to ruin an interesting suspense about the extent to which she was what she claimed to be.  All of the Arya and Asha stuff could easily be skipped, as could Davos Seaforth and Quentyn Martell.  The book would be much better if tighter.  Martin could publish all of these snippets as short stories or on the web.

Someone asked:  yes, Brienne reappears (as far as we can tell, though it is in just one scene), but we don't find out how she came back to life.

agreed on the resurrections. the first time we saw it with robin hood was kinda cool, since then =  :rolleyes: i mean, what is even the point of undead cat? martin thinking wouldn't it just be awesome if she came back to life and started offing freys?

i really thought the theon chapters were some of the best written in the book. there needed to be a pov in that part of the world, imo. asha, well, she served her purpose

honestly? if a lot of those pov characters were cut from the book, i would have found it terribly difficult to get through. they were the saving grace to the endless sea of pointless and just (imo) plainly dull daenerys and tyrion chapters. jon's weren't too bad, i thought, but still could have easily been condensed. the davos chapter on that small island was pretty worthless, though. cannot agree with quentyn--pov of meereen post drogo-flight + continuation of one of the more interesting plots of affc

i don't know what martin is doing with arya, though i've not read her last chapter so maybe it's explained there. i think he just likes the character + she's a fan favorite, so he threw in a bone to that crowd

i've found the last quarter or so of the book to be much more interesting and engaging than everything before it, excluding certain povs (bran, theon). 3/4 of the book < affc as a whole, last part of adwd > affc is how i would rate it. the very worst were the "daenerys acts stupid" chapters (most of the book, really, she wasn't always this incompetent.. was she?) and the five hundred pages devoted to tyrion on a boat or with a caravan

@brienne- she didn't die in affc. she had phony-death syndrome; she said a word

I don't find the meanering and pointless POV chapters poorly-written; as you say, Martin made Theon one of the more interesting pointless characters in the book, and wrote his chapters well.

My problem is that they are meandering and pointless, and would be much better if published outside the book.  With all the pointless POVs included, by the time you get back to anything resembling the plot, you have lost some of the interest.  It is kinda like reading The Lord of the Rings by stopping after each chapter to read a chapter of AA Soldier of the Great War.  Sure, the chapters of ASotGW would be well-written and the characters interesting, but the distraction wouldn't improve your enjoyment of The Lord of the Rings.

I didn't find the Quentyn Martell chapters well-written or interesting, or germane to the story.  If he gets resurrected (or turns out not to have died at all) as well, I am going to throw the next book across the room!    I find it interesting that you consider the Tyrion and Danenarys chapters pointless, but not the Asha, Theon, Quentyn, and Davos ones.  Perhaps we don't agree on what the plot of the book is, because IMO the whole plot of the book is the fulfillment of the prophecy of Ice and Fire, and Daenarys is clearly the key to that prophecy.  Tyrion, it seems to me, is clearly going to be the guy who knows enough about dragons to explain to Dani how to control hers.

Remember, in Martin's work, only Ned Stark stays dead, until the inevitable retcon, when Gwen Stacy/Bucky Barnes/Jason Todd return from the dead.

Quote from: Scipio on July 16, 2011, 08:27:46 AM
Remember, in Martin's work, only Ned Stark stays dead, until the inevitable retcon, when Gwen Stacy/Bucky Barnes/Jason Todd return from the dead.

We don't know that Ned is dead.  Someone who looked a lot like him was killed, but that doesn't say much in Martin's world, where dead people are mistakenly identified all the time.

I'd say that whether Ned is dead or not will really depend on whether the show continues to be successful with out Sean Bean.  If they need Bean back, either the "Ned" we saw/read about being executed is a fake, or else Ned gets resurrected.

Quote from: grumbler on July 16, 2011, 08:13:12 AM
I don't find the meanering and pointless POV chapters poorly-written; as you say, Martin made Theon one of the more interesting pointless characters in the book, and wrote his chapters well.

My problem is that they are meandering and pointless, and would be much better if published outside the book.  With all the pointless POVs included, by the time you get back to anything resembling the plot, you have lost some of the interest.  It is kinda like reading The Lord of the Rings by stopping after each chapter to read a chapter of AA Soldier of the Great War.  Sure, the chapters of ASotGW would be well-written and the characters interesting, but the distraction wouldn't improve your enjoyment of The Lord of the Rings.

I didn't find the Quentyn Martell chapters well-written or interesting, or germane to the story.  If he gets resurrected (or turns out not to have died at all) as well, I am going to throw the next book across the room!    I find it interesting that you consider the Tyrion and Danenarys chapters pointless, but not the Asha, Theon, Quentyn, and Davos ones.  Perhaps we don't agree on what the plot of the book is, because IMO the whole plot of the book is the fulfillment of the prophecy of Ice and Fire, and Daenarys is clearly the key to that prophecy.  Tyrion, it seems to me, is clearly going to be the guy who knows enough about dragons to explain to Dani how to control hers.

i suppose i never had that problem, the sudden switch from main storyline to "pointless pov", back to main storyline, etc. to me, interesting characters add depth to the world. many of the more useless-to-fire&ice povs serve simply to show the events occurring in specific areas of the world. this has always been a theme in martin's series, such as sansa and catelyn earlier on in the first books. sure, it's been occurring with more frequency since affc, and the importance of certain such side-povs might not be at the level of catelyn in got/acok/asos, but they still have mostly acted with purpose. asha, for example, showed us stannis' problems, introduced the question surrounding the future of the ironborn islands and theon's possible role there, and reunited with her brother--furthering her own personal arch. it may be that by the end of the series they do have some impact on the main plot, or they could remain as event/setting-povs. time will tell.

in your lord of the rings example, the non-frodo chapters after fellowship--in relation to the main storyline--were pointless (from what i remember) aside from showing the events at helm's deep, minas tirith, and really only affected the storyline by explaining that a diversion north of mordor allowed the hobbits to make the final trek

still haven't finished quentyn's chapters, so if he suffers from martinism and nothing happens with his plot to steal a dragon, then i'm not sure. i'll have to get back to you on him once i finish it up. i do like his character and appreciated his presence in the book, however

now, forgive me if i came across as saying all the tyrion and daenerys chapters were pointless. i do not think they were, just about half of them :P

Quote from: LaCroix on July 16, 2011, 02:30:50 PM
i suppose i never had that problem, the sudden switch from main storyline to "pointless pov", back to main storyline, etc. to me, interesting characters add depth to the world. many of the more useless-to-fire&ice povs serve simply to show the events occurring in specific areas of the world. this has always been a theme in martin's series, such as sansa and catelyn earlier on in the first books. sure, it's been occurring with more frequency since affc, and the importance of certain such side-povs might not be at the level of catelyn in got/acok/asos, but they still have mostly acted with purpose. asha, for example, showed us stannis' problems, introduced the question surrounding the future of the ironborn islands and theon's possible role there, and reunited with her brother--furthering her own personal arch. it may be that by the end of the series they do have some impact on the main plot, or they could remain as event/setting-povs. time will tell.

I oprefer my storytellers to tell stories, not just indulge thier ability to put words on paper.  We don't need to know any of the details of Stannis's problems in the North - we didn;t have any details on his problems for months on end of story-time, and the show went on.  It is his lack of discipline that prevents Martin from being a truly great writer, IMO.  He has all the skills.

Quotein your lord of the rings example, the non-frodo chapters after fellowship--in relation to the main storyline--were pointless (from what i remember) aside from showing the events at helm's deep, minas tirith, and really only affected the storyline by explaining that a diversion north of mordor allowed the hobbits to make the final trek

I don't think you understood the books at all.  The Lord of the Rings wasn't about a ring, it was about the characters affected by the ring.  The book didn't even end when the ring was destroyed, which it would have if it was about the ring.  Thus, chapters about people who didn;t have the ring were as important as chapters about people with the ring.  Your comment would be apt if Tolkien had Martinized his books by including, after every chapter with Aragorn, a chapter showing Elrond being helpless to do anything to help and remembering the old War of the Ring, after every chapter with Gandalf in it, a chapter showing Rhadagast the Brown wandering through Mirkwood killing spiders, and after every chapter with frodo and Sam having a chapter of Tom Bombadil singing songs to Goldberry and having the adventures he had in The Adventures of Tom Bombadil.

Quotenow, forgive me if i came across as saying all the tyrion and daenerys chapters were pointless. i do not think they were, just about half of them :P

That's martin's indiscipline showing.  Yes, we get lots of chapters where nothing happens, because that's just the way he writes.  They are real purty and descriptive, but could be shortened and combined to make the narrative cleaner and more compelling.  Martin leaves out the battles, but describes ruined cities in some detail.

Quote from: grumbler on July 16, 2011, 06:52:32 PMI oprefer my storytellers to tell stories, not just indulge thier ability to put words on paper.  We don't need to know any of the details of Stannis's problems in the North - we didn;t have any details on his problems for months on end of story-time, and the show went on.  It is his lack of discipline that prevents Martin from being a truly great writer, IMO.  He has all the skills.

I don't think you understood the books at all.  The Lord of the Rings wasn't about a ring, it was about the characters affected by the ring.  The book didn't even end when the ring was destroyed, which it would have if it was about the ring.  Thus, chapters about people who didn;t have the ring were as important as chapters about people with the ring.

That's martin's indiscipline showing.  Yes, we get lots of chapters where nothing happens, because that's just the way he writes.  They are real purty and descriptive, but could be shortened and combined to make the narrative cleaner and more compelling.  Martin leaves out the battles, but describes ruined cities in some detail.

first, finished off quentyn. poor guy, but i see what you mean. he really has no purpose other than concluding a stray plot point developed in affc. and showing that there's a bit more needed than an obscure drop of targ blood when dealing with dragons. still enjoyed the chapters, though

martin expands on the story through his many characters, showing events from different povs to help enlighten the reader about this or that. it's not perfect by any means, and i could agree about his lack of discipline, but i don't think it's honest to characterize the "pointless povs" as being nothing more than words on paper. many, myself included, would not find the series nearly as enjoyable if there weren't povs around to show what was happening in other areas of the realm and instead stuck to what the main players were doing--leaving the reader as ignorant as the character. like i said, he's been doing this since game of thrones. it may not be the best writing around, but i at least find it entertaining

on stannis- we've nearly always had a character follow him around since he became relevant, and with davos off finding allies that pov had to be replaced

you're right, i probably didn't understand lotr. i read it at age 12 and haven't since  :D

Finished it just now.  I have to agree with grumbler; there were far too many pointless POVs nestled in the book (Victarion, Asha, Quentyn--disagree that Theon's were pointless).  I'm still digesting the ending and will unfortunately concede that Valmy was right about the epilogue character.  I liked Kevan.   :(

Melisandre will resurrect Jon, though.  The pair of them have too much time invested in their stories to just throw it aside without a real, non-Julius Caesar ending.

I'm still puzzled as to why Victarion's chapters are even in the book at all.  Any build-up to what he'll do in the next book could easily have been handled via flashbacks.

Also, odds on Stannis actually being dead?  The letter from Ramsay seems like a trick for some sort and I'm still trying to figure out how he'd know all that he wrote in it.  I'm smelling something fishy there.

Quote from: Habbaku on July 17, 2011, 01:51:46 AM
I'm still puzzled as to why Victarion's chapters are even in the book at all.  Any build-up to what he'll do in the next book could easily have been handled via flashbacks.

because victarion is just plain awesome, and his chapters are the funniest in the book? :D

as a tie in to your last question- how do you think theon/jeyne escaped, btw? the banker said: "beneath its walls we found mors umber with a troop of raw green boys, waiting for the king's coming. he gave us this." i assumed this meant there was infighting at winterfell, unless the banker's troupe came upon them just as they dragged theon and jeyne from the snow after their jump

No, I don't think there was any in-fighting at Winterfell (well, aside from the obvious bits, of course).  Mors Umber was the force that had sided with Stannis and were the ones responsible for blowing the horns that drew the Bolton's forces out of the walls.  I think it's most likely that Theon and Jeyne's fall was cushioned by snow and they simply escaped to the "good guy's" lines in the confusion--something made all the easier by the splitting of the Bolton-Frey and Manderly forces.

Quote from: Habbaku on July 17, 2011, 02:11:42 AM
No, I don't think there was any in-fighting at Winterfell (well, aside from the obvious bits, of course).  Mors Umber was the force that had sided with Stannis and were the ones responsible for blowing the horns that drew the Bolton's forces out of the walls.  I think it's most likely that Theon and Jeyne's fall was cushioned by snow and they simply escaped to the "good guy's" lines in the confusion--something made all the easier by the splitting of the Bolton-Frey and Manderly forces.

ahh, yes, i had completely forgotten about the other umber group. that would explain that part. thank you for explaining the confusion. i'm unsure then, but given ramsay's nature i would not be surprised if he had lied about the death of stannis. the reference to the magical sword can be explained through the torture of mance and/or the spear-wives

Quote from: LaCroix on July 17, 2011, 02:31:50 AM

Quote from: Habbaku on July 17, 2011, 02:11:42 AM
No, I don't think there was any in-fighting at Winterfell (well, aside from the obvious bits, of course).  Mors Umber was the force that had sided with Stannis and were the ones responsible for blowing the horns that drew the Bolton's forces out of the walls.  I think it's most likely that Theon and Jeyne's fall was cushioned by snow and they simply escaped to the "good guy's" lines in the confusion--something made all the easier by the splitting of the Bolton-Frey and Manderly forces.

ahh, yes, i had completely forgotten about the other umber group. that would explain that part. thank you for explaining the confusion. i'm unsure then, but given ramsay's nature i would not be surprised if he had lied about the death of stannis. the reference to the magical sword can be explained through the torture of mance and/or the spear-wives

But it is Ramsey, not Roose, sending the letter.  He wouldn't be doing that if Roose were still alive, which implies some fighting.

It isn't likely that Stannis is dead, because how could Ramsey have defeated and destroyed Stannis's army and not discover that Theon and "Arya" had been with it, and not with Jon Snow?

I still agree with Grumbler on this.  Martin is a talented author.  He can string sentences together well (which is harder then it looks), and make them aesthetically pleasing.  He's brimming with ideas, but he needs a good editor to cut out much of the fat.  His novels need more focus.  I'm somewhat reminded of a the story of the Aleph by Borges.  In the story the narrator meets a poet who is trying to describe everything in the entire world (he also has a secret means to see everything), in one poem.  Martin has the same problem.  He's describing a massive number of characters and places and plot lines, to the point where it threatens to collapse on itself.  I haven't read the new one yet, but it doesn't sound like he's remedied this problem.  I fear he'll simply die before the novels are finished (which would be very unfortunate because the books are good and the plots are interesting.  Also he's probably not like to die anytime soon.)

Also the guy wears the same hat as I do, and his bear grows out the way mine does.   Someone pointed out that he looks like an older version of me, something I find somewhat distressing.

Quote from: Habbaku on July 17, 2011, 02:11:42 AM
--something made all the easier by the splitting of the Bolton-Frey and Manderly forces.

Was anyone else disappointed that Manderly didn't have some devious and cruelly effective (though possibly suicidal) scheme for revenge all laid out for the Freys?  I was really looking forward to the hammer falling, and it never fell.  Manderly just ate stuff.  :(

Quote from: grumbler on July 17, 2011, 09:21:07 AM

Quote from: Habbaku on July 17, 2011, 02:11:42 AM
--something made all the easier by the splitting of the Bolton-Frey and Manderly forces.

Was anyone else disappointed that Manderly didn't have some devious and cruelly effective (though possibly suicidal) scheme for revenge all laid out for the Freys?  I was really looking forward to the hammer falling, and it never fell.  Manderly just ate stuff.  :(

You mean like after getting Roose Bolton killed in a skirmish convincing the now immensely trickable Ramsay that Stannis' Army was destroyed when it was really out in the storm getting ready to storm Winterfell when White Harbour opens the gates? That sort of devious and cruelly effective plan? No Frey has successfully managed to get anywhere alive after being within the power of White Harbour since Manderley's son was returned. Roose Bolton was suspicious of Manderly from the get go, presumably Manderly wants the elder Bolton out of the way before striking. Remember the theme of the book, wise leadership matters.

Quote from: Viking on July 17, 2011, 09:33:16 AM
You mean like after getting Roose Bolton killed in a skirmish convincing the now immensely trickable Ramsay that Stannis' Army was destroyed when it was really out in the storm getting ready to storm Winterfell when White Harbour opens the gates? That sort of devious and cruelly effective plan?

No, I meant something devious and cruelly effective.  Since what you describe didn't happen, as far as we know, whatever plan Manderly had wasn't effective to our knowledge (though it could still happen in the next book, of course).

QuoteNo Frey has successfully managed to get anywhere alive after being within the power of White Harbour since Manderley's son was returned. Roose Bolton was suspicious of Manderly from the get go, presumably Manderly wants the elder Bolton out of the way before striking. Remember the theme of the book, wise leadership matters.

Why all of the one Frey delegations seems to have been offed, that's not much revenge at all.  It is possible that Manderly's revenge comes in the next book, but that doesn't mean I wasn't disappointed to see no such thing in this book. 

Quote from: grumbler on July 17, 2011, 09:21:07 AM

Quote from: Habbaku on July 17, 2011, 02:11:42 AM
--something made all the easier by the splitting of the Bolton-Frey and Manderly forces.

Was anyone else disappointed that Manderly didn't have some devious and cruelly effective (though possibly suicidal) scheme for revenge all laid out for the Freys?  I was really looking forward to the hammer falling, and it never fell.  Manderly just ate stuff.  :(

I was disappointed that we weren't privy to seeing it in this book, certainly, but I do think that he either pulled his trick and we'll find out about it next, or that it will be filled in in the next book.  As you mentioned, Ramsay wrote the letter, which implies that Roose is quite dead, though that's about as certain as Stannis' death.

Quote from: Siege on July 15, 2011, 05:33:53 PM
Aegon!
The son of Rhaegar is alive and heading to Volantis to link up with Daenerys.
What a cop out.
Reviving the Targaryen male line is bad storytelling, in my opinion.
GRRM is disappointing me once again. This is becoming a soap opera.

I'm about a third of the way in. Aegon is alive  :rolleyes: So very lame. Sometimes i think Martin takes his cues from internet theories about his books... Who cares what the prophecy about the dragon has 3 heads means? You don't need to box yourself in like that.

And what's up with those greyscale people in the Tyrion chapters? They're not explained very well, yet there's like 3 tyrion chapters so far on that damn pole boat. Yawn.

I'm not impressed so far. Six years of waiting for this?

Quote from: grumbler on July 17, 2011, 09:21:07 AMI was really looking forward to the hammer falling, and it never fell.  Manderly just ate stuff.  :(

to be fair, he did serve up freys cooked in pies :D

Quote from: LaCroix on July 17, 2011, 02:31:47 PM

Quote from: grumbler on July 17, 2011, 09:21:07 AMI was really looking forward to the hammer falling, and it never fell.  Manderly just ate stuff.  :(

to be fair, he did serve up freys cooked in pies :D

Well.. Manderly did ask for the song about the Rat Cook (http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Rat_Cook).....  :yuk:

Quote from: LaCroix on July 17, 2011, 02:31:47 PM
to be fair, he did serve up freys cooked in pies :D

Is that what the pie stuff was all about?  I missed that.  That is pretty good revenge, getting your Frey guests to chow down on their kin.  Manderly didn't eat any of that pie, did he?

Quote from: grumbler on July 17, 2011, 02:39:35 PM
Is that what the pie stuff was all about?  I missed that.  That is pretty good revenge, getting your Frey guests to chow down on their kin.  Manderly didn't eat any of that pie, did he?

three large pies as wide across as wagon wheels, and the good manderly ate more than any other. six portions, two from each :)

Quote from: LaCroix on July 17, 2011, 02:31:47 PM

Quote from: grumbler on July 17, 2011, 09:21:07 AMI was really looking forward to the hammer falling, and it never fell.  Manderly just ate stuff.  :(

to be fair, he did serve up freys cooked in pies :D

Yeah, that was a pretty hilarious little scene.  "Pork" pie indeed.

I also wonder why Martin has the Lannisters think they can return Gregor Clegane, now even as a knight of the Kingsguard, without paying the price.  Knights of the Kingsguard are a bit too prominent to get away with hiding the fact that the fellow is eight feet tall and built identically to Gregor.  That he never removes his helm damns him further.  How could one of the most famous figures in the land remain an unknown?

This is either very lazy writing or very clever writing.  Seven or eight years from now, we may know which.

If any of this speculation is true then Wyman Manderley is the coldest most calculating bastard in the 7 Kingdoms. Fortunately for Rickon he has an irrational loyalty to the Starks.

(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fcdn.obsidianportal.com%2Fimages%2F294416%2Fwyman.jpg&hash=6d18eba5ac4e6afa5ff5d686e36b26001f65fe91)

Manderley

hmmm.. .is he a martin mary sue?

(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fupload.wikimedia.org%2Fwikipedia%2Fcommons%2Fthumb%2Ff%2Ffb%2FGeorge_R._R._Martin.jpg%2F200px-George_R._R._Martin.jpg&hash=10e08ba328c6cdf66d58b71f676177283e78093f)

Quote from: grumbler on July 17, 2011, 02:47:44 PM
I also wonder why Martin has the Lannisters think they can return Gregor Clegane, now even as a knight of the Kingsguard, without paying the price.  Knights of the Kingsguard are a bit too prominent to get away with hiding the fact that the fellow is eight feet tall and built identically to Gregor.  That he never removes his helm damns him further.  How could one of the most famous figures in the land remain an unknown?

This is either very lazy writing or very clever writing.  Seven or eight years from now, we may know which.

Qyburn doesn't care
Cersei thinks she can get away with it. Anyways, Cersei doesn't want an alliance with Dorn and has probably sent Balon Swann to kidnap Myrcella. All of that would end the alliance gained with Gregor's head.
Kevan doesn't know about it.
Lancel is a religious freak and uninvolved.
Jamie is on crusade looking for his honour and doesn't know about it.

I don't think that "The Lannisters" is relevant here. Cersei is the only Lannister involved and I don't think she cares or values the Dorn alliance. Good move on her part since Prince Doran seems determined to rise in revolt.

Quote from: Viking on July 17, 2011, 02:50:58 PMirrational loyalty to the Starks.

given his alternatives...

QuoteI don't think that "The Lannisters" is relevant here.

i don't know, i thought it strange too that no one seemed to comment on the potential political fallout from having a man that looks exactly like the mountain appear on the kingsguard after his disappearance from the public. had kevan never before seen gregor, ever in his life? the rest on the council also have little excuse

i wouldn't be surprised though if his helm gets knocked off in the battle revealing some grotesque monster. he's not exactly alive from the sound of it

Quote from: LaCroix on July 17, 2011, 04:01:48 PM

Quote from: Viking on July 17, 2011, 02:50:58 PMirrational loyalty to the Starks.

given his alternatives...

Fair point, but I would have thought that waiting for a more suitable time to strike rather than acting as soon as he finds Rickon.

Quote from: LaCroix on July 17, 2011, 04:01:48 PM

Quote from: Viking on July 17, 2011, 02:50:58 PMI don't think that "The Lannisters" is relevant here.

i don't know, i thought it strange too that no one seemed to comment on the potential political fallout from having a man that looks exactly like the mountain appear on the kingsguard after his disappearance from the public. had kevan never before seen gregor, ever in his life? the rest on the council also have little excuse

i wouldn't be surprised though if his helm gets knocked off in the battle revealing some grotesque monster. he's not exactly alive from the sound of it

I'm sure there is some by-law in the rules of trial by combat that says that the champion must be mortal or human or something... but then again Aerys did have Rickard Stark duel against wildfire.

BTW, did anyone else have that (excellent, but annoyingly memorable) theme song to the HBO show playing in their heads the whole time they were reading this book?  :lol:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s7L2PVdrb_8 for those that haven't seen the show yet.

The only book character I had trouble associating with the TV characters was Tyrion.  Some of the stuff Tyrion did, like the pig jousting, I just couldn't see Peter Dinklage doing, though that's more a failure of my imagination, i suppose.

Quote from: Viking on July 17, 2011, 02:50:58 PM
If any of this speculation is true then Wyman Manderley is the coldest most calculating bastard in the 7 Kingdoms.

I just re-read that part of the book.  I have no doubts that LaCroix hit the mark.  It is clear in retrospect, though I missed it when I read it the first time.

Now I see why Theon's POV had to be in the book, and withdraw my objections to his inclusion.

Edit:  wrote it exactly wrong the first time!   :lol:

Now that I reflect a bit, I'm thinking Asha's chapters may not be as pointless as suspected.  I think it's likely that those were necessary to set up her meeting with Theon again and to cement the idea that they're going to go back together and challenge the results of the kingsmoot.

With the Iron Islands changing loyalties again (presumably after the Shield Islands are lost to the Redwyne fleet and Victarion's voyage ends in complete destruction of that segment of the Iron Fleet), Theon and Asha will be poised to sign a peace deal with the North or aid in taking down the Boltons.

All of that could be covered in flashbacks, though.  We don't need a blow-by-blow description of her battle against Stannis's men, for instance.  Many equivalent incidents have been mentioned in dialogue or in flashbacks.  The story needs to move on while we still care.

True; none of her chapters really had the sort of necessary scenes that Theon's did.  I think I might have to re-read them to double check that, though.

Well instead of reading this book I´ve done something more fulfilling, trolling on the asoiaf forums. Not that trolling is needed but rather a nudge in some direction a few questions in another and the bile and hate come boiling up to the surface. Its been a good few days. Oh and...

(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi48.tinypic.com%2F9jkahg.jpg&hash=075fe8fd8835cb50a9749bdfc786c3e1ab3a72a5)

No link of your exploits, just bragging?  Okay, Martinus.

Quote from: Habbaku on July 18, 2011, 01:30:04 PM
No link of your exploits, just bragging?  Okay, Martinus.

Come on!  He inserted a meaningless cartoon, what more do you want?

And if he was being Marti, he would have included a hilariously inapt analogy.  Moronic cartoon /= hilariously inapt analogy.

i missed this, but apparently connington is gay. martinus needs a new avatar :D

Quote from: LaCroix on July 18, 2011, 02:41:59 PM
i missed this, but apparently connington is gay. martinus needs a new avatar :D

connington played loras to rhaegars renly?

Quote from: Viking on July 18, 2011, 02:53:02 PMconnington played loras to rhaegars renly?

i think it was a one way street. and here i thought the guy just really liked him as a friend

Quote from: LaCroix on July 18, 2011, 02:56:43 PM

Quote from: Viking on July 18, 2011, 02:53:02 PMconnington played loras to rhaegars renly?

i think it was a one way street. and here i thought the guy just really liked him as a friend

That's what I thought, I always thought Jon and Rhaegar had a Ned/Robert type relationship. They met when they were young and were friends for a long time.

Quote from: LaCroix on July 18, 2011, 02:41:59 PM
i missed this, but apparently connington is gay.

:huh:

Quote from: Habbaku on July 18, 2011, 03:10:21 PM:huh:

i guess martin revealed at one of his book signings that a pov in adwd is gay. quentyn might be awkward around women, but that's explained through inexperience. he clearly has desire. barristan had his love interest. etc, etc. the only one that really fits the bill is connington, which fits given a few subtle hints--especially in the chapter where he retakes his castle

So I finished the book yesterday. Pretty disappointing overall. I agree with much and more of what's been said about trimming the fat off. Why do we need half the chapters to be about Tyrion and Dany?

What's the point of the female dwarf? Why does it takes dozens of chapters to get him to Meereen? Why do we need endless Dany chapters about Slaver's Bay politics and intrigue? I don't see how Slaver's Bay can become relevant to the main plot points, which to me are the coming fight against the Others and the fight for the Iron throne.

And it seems like Martin pulled Aegon out of his hat. Varys' reasoning in the epilogue also left me going huh? So you want to sow more chaos and war and famine to save the children of Westeros. Right.

I see why it's taken GRRM so long to write it. He had to do research for all the soft porn scenes. :D

You people read fast, I'm just coming up to halfway. <_<

Anyway, my conjectures:

Young Griff is probably not Aegon - there are too many references to the mummer's dragon. It could also indicate that he belongs to Varys, though.

Dany is pregnant - stomach cramps, blood between her thighs, seem to point to that. Whether the child is Hizdahr's or Daario's remains to be seen.

Roose Bolton isn't dead - otherwise Ramsay would be signing as Lord of the Dreadfort too. He might be captured or otherwise incapacitated though.

Quote from: Tyr on July 22, 2011, 05:30:12 PM
You people read fast, I'm just coming up to halfway. <_<

I got the ebook and read through it in 20 hours straight.

Also, Patchface is totally the Great Other in disguise.

Quote from: Solmyr on July 23, 2011, 06:57:14 AM
Anyway, my conjectures:

Young Griff is probably not Aegon - there are too many references to the mummer's dragon. It could also indicate that he belongs to Varys, though.

This is possible, but Covington believes it. So somebody tricked him and grabbed the wrong baby early on?

Quote from: Faeelin on July 23, 2011, 11:48:31 AM

Quote from: Solmyr on July 23, 2011, 06:57:14 AM
Anyway, my conjectures:

Young Griff is probably not Aegon - there are too many references to the mummer's dragon. It could also indicate that he belongs to Varys, though.

This is possible, but Covington believes it. So somebody tricked him and grabbed the wrong baby early on?

Varys, most likely.

Quote from: Solmyr on July 23, 2011, 12:21:18 PM

Quote from: Faeelin on July 23, 2011, 11:48:31 AM

Quote from: Solmyr on July 23, 2011, 06:57:14 AM
Anyway, my conjectures:

Young Griff is probably not Aegon - there are too many references to the mummer's dragon. It could also indicate that he belongs to Varys, though.

This is possible, but Covington believes it. So somebody tricked him and grabbed the wrong baby early on?

Varys, most likely.

But Varys could have plausibly gotten the real babe as well, right? It's also not clear why he'd lie when he offs Kevan...

I figured out why I didn't like the book.

Victory is impossible. It doesn't matter what the characters are trying to do, they will fail. Varys will stab them in the dark, or a pretender who has never been hinted at before will emerge; or you will be stabbed in the back, or the dragons will burn you and fly you away.

Why root for characters if we know that they are all doomed to failure?

Which characters are doomed to failure, exactly?

True to an extent, if Jon, Tyrion, and Dany were PCs in a RPG campaign, their GM would be quite a cruel one. Aegon and Varys did feel like a deus ex machina, a bit.

Quote from: Solmyr on July 24, 2011, 05:03:13 AM
True to an extent, if Jon, Tyrion, and Dany were PCs in a RPG campaign, their GM would be quite a cruel one. Aegon and Varys did feel like a deus ex machina, a bit.

Even the rest of the Lannisters. "Get a decent regent? No, now knives in the back.

Be the younger, charismatic brother of the king with a large military force? Get eaten by shadow demons that are never used again.

Quote from: Faeelin on July 24, 2011, 09:05:43 AM
Be the younger, charismatic brother of the king with a large military force? Get eaten by shadow demons that are never used again.

Not true.  They get used again.

Quote from: grumbler on July 17, 2011, 04:56:40 PM
BTW, did anyone else have that (excellent, but annoyingly memorable) theme song to the HBO show playing in their heads the whole time they were reading this book?  :lol:

Yep.

Anyway, somewhat disappointed with the book, though it was better than the last one (maybe because there's a lot more stuff going on in these parts of the world).
As others have said, way too many Tyrion and Dany chapters. And while I do like "filler" POVs I agree that some should have been handled as flashbacks (Victarion for one). I also agree that resurrecting Aegon this late without a single hint early on is not cool.

Still, I liked Theon's chapters, the new and hugely improved Rat Cook and seeing Jon finally free of his oath. Time to finally fuck Val's brains out and take command of the wildlings.

Quote from: Zoupa on July 20, 2011, 10:28:19 PMVarys' reasoning in the epilogue also left me going huh? So you want to sow more chaos and war and famine to save the children of Westeros. Right.

The war would be much worse and take much longer If he let Kevan properly respond to the landings.

Quote from: Benedict Arnold on July 24, 2011, 09:27:09 AM
Not true.  They get used again.

True - but never when they would truly be useful. 

The most intriging story in Westeros:

(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fawoiaf.westeros.org%2Fimages%2Fd%2Fd1%2FRhaeg_lyanna-winterfelll.jpg&hash=fe1a4169ccdac7e1a6a3588e87c6722b311499b3)

Quote from: Siege on July 25, 2011, 10:31:59 PM
The most intriging story in Westeros:

I didn't realize they had blue tiberium in Westeros. But the notion that Kane is behind everything makes much more sense than the current plot...

Quoteyeah so

littlebird-:

        as mentioned below, worked with a girl who's boyf is best mates with jack gleeson
        i finally got his age, he's nineteen
        anyway
        apparently he constantly gets people coming up to him in the streets screaming 'I FUCKING HATE YOU'
        and he's like the shyest, nicest guy ever
        omg
        i told her to tell him i'm his biggest fan ever and i just want to give him a massive hug, and i knew a bunch of people who felt the same, even all the way in america and australia.
        have a heart
        hug a joff

Aw. :(

Time to start the 'Hug a Joff' campaign, y/y?

ok, thats a bit excessive and how you get school shootings.

I don't think that's how you get school shootings, no.

Just finished the book.

Aegon not really dead? come on, that's lame.

And Jon better stays dead (altough I don't think he will). Undeading him would be very cheap and tiresome.

Otherwise I enjoyed the book very much, and I disagree about the "pointless POVs", even if I was growing tired of some of them. If you want to see the end of the story, 99% of the book was pointless. Instead of spending pages upon pages on Dany, Martin could have written "Dany spent her time tearing up her realm, disabled by conflicted morals and being in heat, resulting in the dragons getting loose and she learning how to ride them". There, you saved a lot of space, and the exact episodes of her shenangians "could have been released as small stories"

:rolleyes:

I disagree. I enjoy the entire Dany storyline. It's something different from the standard medieval European fantasy that is the rest of Westeros.

Quote from: Solmyr on July 27, 2011, 03:17:13 AM
I disagree. I enjoy the entire Dany storyline. It's something different from the standard medieval European fantasy that is the rest of Westeros.

What I am saying is that "not needed" is too broad a term. When it comes to what actually progressed the grand storyline, you could have a page, instead of a book. But it would be stupid to complain about that.

Quote from: Tamas on July 27, 2011, 03:18:36 AM

Quote from: Solmyr on July 27, 2011, 03:17:13 AM
I disagree. I enjoy the entire Dany storyline. It's something different from the standard medieval European fantasy that is the rest of Westeros.

What I am saying is that "not needed" is too broad a term. When it comes to what actually progressed the grand storyline, you could have a page, instead of a book. But it would be stupid to complain about that.

Are you suggesting that Martin has contracted Jordanitis (overindulgence in worldbuilding) in addition to his pervasive Martinitis (paralyzing fear that the next book will let down fans)?

Quote from: Viking on July 27, 2011, 03:22:34 AM

Quote from: Tamas on July 27, 2011, 03:18:36 AM

Quote from: Solmyr on July 27, 2011, 03:17:13 AM
I disagree. I enjoy the entire Dany storyline. It's something different from the standard medieval European fantasy that is the rest of Westeros.

What I am saying is that "not needed" is too broad a term. When it comes to what actually progressed the grand storyline, you could have a page, instead of a book. But it would be stupid to complain about that.

Are you suggesting that Martin has contracted Jordanitis (overindulgence in worldbuilding) in addition to his pervasive Martinitis (paralyzing fear that the next book will let down fans)?

Sort of. But if you like the world, it should be okay. I think it was on acceptable levels, except for the grand reopening of the pits which was looooooooooong.
I did not mind Vicarion and the other "fillers" - I got to learn what was going on those parts. And if you (well not you, but grumbler) say that this could have been covered more easily "on the side" or as brief flashbacks later, then sure, but that goes for almost all of the book's content and one is left wondering: why read it at all?

Also, the Lannisters are now a has-been family, it would appear.

Until Tyrion comes back and takes Casterly Rock via the drains, anyway.

Also, I read on the westeros.org forum that Mirri Maz Duur's prophecy appears to have been fulfilled:

When the sun rises in the west and sets in the east - Quentyn Martell coming east and dying there.

When the seas go dry and mountains blow in the wind like leaves - Dothraki Sea drying up, and the pyramids in Meereen destroyed by the dragons.

When your womb quickens again, and you bear a living child - Dany's apparent pregnancy at the end.

Cue Drogo's return, perhaps symbolically (his spirit within Drogon?).

Quote from: Tamas on July 27, 2011, 03:41:41 AM
Also, the Lannisters are now a has-been family, it would appear.

hmm...

Tywin and Kevan dead from crossbowitis
Tyrion on the run
Jamie questing for honour and about to meet UnCat
Joffrey death through being a dick
Myrcella unlikely to leave Dorne
Tommen distracted by the issue of banning beets and the nighttime activities of ser pounce and co.
Cersei certifiably nuts
Lancel - religious freak

yepp.. I agree, Lannisters are fucked

Quote from: Solmyr on July 27, 2011, 03:49:07 AM
Until Tyrion comes back and takes Casterly Rock via the drains, anyway.

Also, I read on the westeros.org forum that Mirri Maz Duur's prophecy appears to have been fulfilled:

When the sun rises in the west and sets in the east - Quentyn Martell coming east and dying there.

When the seas go dry and mountains blow in the wind like leaves - Dothraki Sea drying up, and the pyramids in Meereen destroyed by the dragons.

When your womb quickens again, and you bear a living child - Dany's apparent pregnancy at the end.

Cue Drogo's return, perhaps symbolically (his spirit within Drogon?).

what apparent pregnancy? Apparent womb-quickening perhaps

and FFS if Khal Drogo gets resurrected I will stop reading the series.

Quote from: Tamas on July 27, 2011, 03:58:12 AM
and FFS if Khal Drogo gets resurrected I will stop reading the series.

What if it happens in the last chapter?

Quote from: Viking on July 27, 2011, 04:05:43 AM

Quote from: Tamas on July 27, 2011, 03:58:12 AM
and FFS if Khal Drogo gets resurrected I will stop reading the series.

What if it happens in the last chapter?

I will be: DISAPPOINTED

Quote from: Tamas on July 27, 2011, 04:12:43 AM

Quote from: Viking on July 27, 2011, 04:05:43 AM

Quote from: Tamas on July 27, 2011, 03:58:12 AM
and FFS if Khal Drogo gets resurrected I will stop reading the series.

What if it happens in the last chapter?

I will be: DISAPPOINTED

hmmm... I was under the impression that regardless of what happens in the last chapter that you would stop reading there?

Quote from: Viking on July 27, 2011, 05:04:36 AM

Quote from: Tamas on July 27, 2011, 04:12:43 AM

Quote from: Viking on July 27, 2011, 04:05:43 AM

Quote from: Tamas on July 27, 2011, 03:58:12 AM
and FFS if Khal Drogo gets resurrected I will stop reading the series.

What if it happens in the last chapter?

I will be: DISAPPOINTED

hmmm... I was under the impression that regardless of what happens in the last chapter that you would stop reading there?

yes but the act of stopping, as an act of protest, would become rather meaningless if all that was to be abandoned was half a chapter

Quote from: Solmyr on July 27, 2011, 03:49:07 AM

Also, I read on the westeros.org forum that Mirri Maz Duur's prophecy appears to have been fulfilled:

When the sun rises in the west and sets in the east - Quentyn Martell coming east and dying there.

When the seas go dry and mountains blow in the wind like leaves - Dothraki Sea drying up, and the pyramids in Meereen destroyed by the dragons.

When your womb quickens again, and you bear a living child - Dany's apparent pregnancy at the end.

Cue Drogo's return, perhaps symbolically (his spirit within Drogon?).

God. I hope this doesn't happen, because that is the most retarded prophecy ever.

Quote from: Tamas on July 27, 2011, 04:12:43 AM

Quote from: Viking on July 27, 2011, 04:05:43 AM

Quote from: Tamas on July 27, 2011, 03:58:12 AM
and FFS if Khal Drogo gets resurrected I will stop reading the series.

What if it happens in the last chapter?

I will be: DISAPPOINTED

You sound like Gary Oldman in The Fifth Element.

Why have GRRM become so lefty?
Two of the main characters, Jon and Dany, are friggin liberals in an age of conservatism.

I just hope Dany gets wacked like Jon before the end of the next book.
She is a fucking whore. A liberal whore at that.

Quote from: Siege on July 27, 2011, 06:22:19 PM
Why have GRRM become so lefty?
Two of the main characters, Jon and Dany, are friggin liberals in an age of conservatism.

And both have had serious repercussions for their acting as such.  I fail to see your point.

GRRM has always been a lefty, though.

I liked the book. I am a little bored of the long traveling chapters though. If the series had started this way, Ned wouldn't have gotten to King's Landing until somewhere around the middle of Clash of Kings. :lol:

Quote from: Habbaku on July 27, 2011, 06:26:48 PM

Quote from: Siege on July 27, 2011, 06:22:19 PM
Why have GRRM become so lefty?
Two of the main characters, Jon and Dany, are friggin liberals in an age of conservatism.

And both have had serious repercussions for their acting as such.  I fail to see your point.

GRRM has always been a lefty, though.

Fantasy is an inherently conservative genre.  Just ask David Brin.

Maybe the world of westeros is a very big planet in which winter last longer?

Quote from: Siege on July 28, 2011, 06:34:25 PM
Maybe the world of westeros is a very big planet in which winter last longer?

I think he stated that it's just magical.

Did you guys see this calendar?
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fpics.livejournal.com%2Fgrrm%2Fpic%2F0009bbt4%2Fs640x480&hash=e8cb13217b2859cfd0067bf83e5c6cd84c238952)


http://(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fpics.livejournal.com%2Fgrrm%2Fpic%2F0009cwwd%2Fs640x480&hash=d1a4353bb4a37d21e7b8a693cb922e0ab7278fa5)

This one looks better.

What are those castle?
I can only recognize the Wall and Storm's End.

(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.suvudu.com%2Fsuvudumedia%2FGRRM_2011_Bck_BIG.jpg&hash=1f6454496c978cae130a806b565319a0120b9fe2)

Well, Winterfell is January and the Vale is on the cover.

Recently finished it myself.  Nothing really new to add, my two biggest criticisms are:

1.  What's with the Dany chapters?  Clearly as she is going to be an important character later in the series, it makes sense to keep following her, or else she'd just be a ridiculous deus ex machina.  But do we literally have to read about her doing almost nothing for the whole book?  At least have her fight some wars against the slave states or go questing after something.  In fact, I really don't care about Meeren, so preferably having her do something related to Westeros would be way more interesting.  And having her dragons do nothing but sit around in a pit for 90% of the book isn't terribly exciting either.  Figuring out what to do with her character is the biggest problem with this series, IMO.

2)  I like Tyrion, but there's only so many "zomg, I'm bored on a ship" chapters I care to read.

Apart from that and some other minor gripes, I enjoyed reading it a good deal - not as much as the first three, but more than the fourth.  The Davos and Theon chapters were great, too, as were the Cersei and Jaime chapters later in the book.  And I liked the introduction of Jon Connington as a viewpoint, although I hope his "Targaryen" turns out to be a fake so that the story won't get any more ridiculous.  I also hope GRRM has a plan for those resurrections going on, because that has immense potential to be retarded, too.

Edit:  Oh yeah, and why no Sansa?  Seeing her with Littlefinger, who seems to be the main mover and shaker, would have been more interesting than the umpteenth Dany fretting over Daario chapter.

So does GRRM have an over arching plan, or does he just make it up as he goes?  Some of the schemes have become so convoluted, it's kind of silly.  Some of arch plotters seem to have ESP in knowing exactly how their victims will react to certain situations.

Quote from: Siege on July 28, 2011, 06:56:51 PM
Well, Winterfell is January and the Vale is on the cover.

Winterfell, Storms End, The Eyrie, Dragonstone, Kings Landing, Riverrun, Highgarden, Sunspear, Casterly Rock, Oldtown, Harrenhall, Castle Black.

Quote from: Viking on July 29, 2011, 02:03:10 AM

Quote from: Siege on July 28, 2011, 06:56:51 PM
Well, Winterfell is January and the Vale is on the cover.

Winterfell, Storms End, The Eyrie, Dragonstone, Kings Landing, Riverrun, Highgarden, Sunspear, Casterly Rock, Oldtown, Harrenhall, Castle Black.

:nerd:

Quote from: Tamas on July 29, 2011, 03:30:21 AM

Quote from: Viking on July 29, 2011, 02:03:10 AM

Quote from: Siege on July 28, 2011, 06:56:51 PM
Well, Winterfell is January and the Vale is on the cover.

Winterfell, Storms End, The Eyrie, Dragonstone, Kings Landing, Riverrun, Highgarden, Sunspear, Casterly Rock, Oldtown, Harrenhall, Castle Black.

:nerd:

Google is ur friend.

http://www.tednasmith.com/other/grrmartin.html

Just finished it yesterday, felt slightly underwhelmed and dissapointed at the book, to be honest.

My main gripes, as I guess are most readers', was with the relative lack of plot advancement and the little rewards after such a long wait for the book. And can somebody plz nuke Mereen? Fecking useless narrative black hole... Aegon appeared in the Eastern continent and landed in Westero in just a few chapters, and Dany hasn't even moved from Slaver's Bay after two books...

Still not done but one thing has struck me and annoyed me about this book. So many of the chapters are written in the unfolding mystery of what the hell is going on style.
Karstark's wedding for instance, he doesn't say she's marrying the magnar until quite a way into it and is trying to hint its Jon involved at first.
And when Theon is giving away Arya. No explanation of the situation he's in, I thought I'd missed a chapter, its just steadily revealed.
This...is fair enough sometimes. Makes you want to read more, beats just outright factually saying x is y. But it is overused.

The dragons also annoy me. They're just locked up. I keep wanting something to happen with them but no, they're just staying locked up.

Mandatory "Downfall" parody video. Spoilerrific, of course:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l0Jm_mT1G8Q (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l0Jm_mT1G8Q)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n9NiDqTftao&feature=related

:punk:

I think my copy of the book is defective. Through the whole book it builds up to a major battle at Meereen, much like the Battle of the Blackwater in A Clash of Kings, with several viewpoints and all-around awesomeness. However, my book ended right before this climatic battle too place. Second, the title of the book is a reference to the Dance of the Dragons, a civil war between Targaryens that took place in the history of Westeros. However, this book didn't feature any fighting between Targaryens and very little with them - one basically disappears halfway through.
Anyone know where I can get a complete replacement for this defective copy?

I've finished the book and my opinions are pretty much the same as everyone else's. It's better than AFFC, but not by much, and it pales in comparison to the first three. Ultimately I think the series will turn out to be a "Read the first three, then read the plot summaries online" deal. And there's no way it will end in 2 more books.

Compare Daenarys' chapters in this book to Tyrion's in A Clash of Kings. Both are in charge of a city facing an imminent threat. In ACoK, we follow Tyrion as he effectively prepares the defenses and brilliantly politically maneuvers while thinking about his whore. Other POV chapters show the other side's preparations. The payoff is a major battle featuring several PoVs. In ADWD, Daenarys less-than-brilliantly maneuvers, her dragons are chained, and she spends most of her time whining about peace and thinking about Daario. We have several other PoV chapters of people converging on Meereen, but in the end we get no payoff - our battle is in another book.

I'm pretty much done with the series at this point. The writing quality is still good, but the overall plot progression is glacial. My predictions for the next book:
Daenarys spends the whole book on the Dothraki sea, reminiscing about Drogo and dreaming about Daario, comparing both to Khal Jerk. If we're lucky, she'll get rescued by Drogon at the end and will end up in Asshai. If we're unlucky, she ends up in Qarth, or just gets rescued, and spends the next book traveling from Qarth to Asshai.

The next book will be called The Winds of Winter, so the focus should be on the north. I predict we will get a whole book's worth of buildup to a major attack by the Others, but the most we see in-book are skirmishes with wights. The final chapter on the wall will have someone blowing a horn three times.

The battle of Meereen will be told in flashback, if at all. Selmy spends the whole book trying to keep the city together and angsts about being a Queensguard with a missing queen and his life of failure.


Now, I did enjoy most of the chapters in this book. I'm mainly frustrated with the glacial and even aimless plot progression. The writing is excellent. I told myself at the beginning "if Tyrion takes the whole book to get to Meereen, this will suck", but his chapters were all interesting and fun to read, even if he took the whole damn book getting to the city.

I'm going to stick with The Dresden Files. Each book there has a self-contained plot while also being part of a much larger, overarching plotline and filling in the setting's mythology and history. GRRM could learn something from Butcher.

EDIT: To say some good things about the book, I did enjoy Theon's chapters quite a lot. Tyrion's too, despite the whole "taking the whole book to get to Meereen". Penny is an excellent foil for him - I hope she doesn't die. I like the political intrigue, so I enjoyed some of Dany's chapters, but he really should have done more there. Have her fly off near the middle or 3/4 mark and then do a big battle - that could have been interesting. I also liked Jon's chapters - he's between several rocks and hard places, and manages to alienate his brothers, sends off his allies and friends, and gets many good rangers killed and then ultimately himself killed. But, it all worked very well and what Bowen did was definitely the right thing from his point of view. Part of me hopes that Jon stays dead.

I also liked Bran's chapters. They could have been made a bit shorter, sure, but they also showed the progress of time very well without spending many more chapters doing nothing. I wish he had showed a bit more of mysteries of that weirwood stuff, but then Bran (apparently) helps Theon remember his true self, so we get some good payoff from just 2 chapters.

http://io9.com/5820288/george-rr-martins-song-of-ice-and-fire-may-turn-out-to-be-eight-books-instead-of-seven

QuoteTalking to the Atlantic, George R.R. Martin admits that he may not be able to wrap up his massive A Song of Ice and Fire series in just two more books.

Jordanitis :(

Quote from: HisMajestyBOB on July 31, 2011, 10:25:58 AM
I think my copy of the book is defective. Through the whole book it builds up to a major battle at Meereen, much like the Battle of the Blackwater in A Clash of Kings, with several viewpoints and all-around awesomeness. However, my book ended right before this climatic battle too place. Second, the title of the book is a reference to the Dance of the Dragons, a civil war between Targaryens that took place in the history of Westeros. However, this book didn't feature any fighting between Targaryens and very little with them - one basically disappears halfway through.
Anyone know where I can get a complete replacement for this defective copy?

I've finished the book and my opinions are pretty much the same as everyone else's. It's better than AFFC, but not by much, and it pales in comparison to the first three. Ultimately I think the series will turn out to be a "Read the first three, then read the plot summaries online" deal. And there's no way it will end in 2 more books.

Compare Daenarys' chapters in this book to Tyrion's in A Clash of Kings. Both are in charge of a city facing an imminent threat. In ACoK, we follow Tyrion as he effectively prepares the defenses and brilliantly politically maneuvers while thinking about his whore. Other POV chapters show the other side's preparations. The payoff is a major battle featuring several PoVs. In ADWD, Daenarys less-than-brilliantly maneuvers, her dragons are chained, and she spends most of her time whining about peace and thinking about Daario. We have several other PoV chapters of people converging on Meereen, but in the end we get no payoff - our battle is in another book.

I'm pretty much done with the series at this point. The writing quality is still good, but the overall plot progression is glacial. My predictions for the next book:
Daenarys spends the whole book on the Dothraki sea, reminiscing about Drogo and dreaming about Daario, comparing both to Khal Jerk. If we're lucky, she'll get rescued by Drogon at the end and will end up in Asshai. If we're unlucky, she ends up in Qarth, or just gets rescued, and spends the next book traveling from Qarth to Asshai.

The next book will be called The Winds of Winter, so the focus should be on the north. I predict we will get a whole book's worth of buildup to a major attack by the Others, but the most we see in-book are skirmishes with wights. The final chapter on the wall will have someone blowing a horn three times.

The battle of Meereen will be told in flashback, if at all. Selmy spends the whole book trying to keep the city together and angsts about being a Queensguard with a missing queen and his life of failure.


Now, I did enjoy most of the chapters in this book. I'm mainly frustrated with the glacial and even aimless plot progression. The writing is excellent. I told myself at the beginning "if Tyrion takes the whole book to get to Meereen, this will suck", but his chapters were all interesting and fun to read, even if he took the whole damn book getting to the city.

I'm going to stick with The Dresden Files. Each book there has a self-contained plot while also being part of a much larger, overarching plotline and filling in the setting's mythology and history. GRRM could learn something from Butcher.

EDIT: To say some good things about the book, I did enjoy Theon's chapters quite a lot. Tyrion's too, despite the whole "taking the whole book to get to Meereen". Penny is an excellent foil for him - I hope she doesn't die. I like the political intrigue, so I enjoyed some of Dany's chapters, but he really should have done more there. Have her fly off near the middle or 3/4 mark and then do a big battle - that could have been interesting. I also liked Jon's chapters - he's between several rocks and hard places, and manages to alienate his brothers, sends off his allies and friends, and gets many good rangers killed and then ultimately himself killed. But, it all worked very well and what Bowen did was definitely the right thing from his point of view. Part of me hopes that Jon stays dead.

I also liked Bran's chapters. They could have been made a bit shorter, sure, but they also showed the progress of time very well without spending many more chapters doing nothing. I wish he had showed a bit more of mysteries of that weirwood stuff, but then Bran (apparently) helps Theon remember his true self, so we get some good payoff from just 2 chapters.

1 - Changes and Ghost Story overlap
2 - Here is the dance of dragons as I see it

QuoteTyrion - duude, you look like a Targaryen under that blue shit, are you perhaps the True Dimitri Aegon?
Young Griff - WFT?
Old Griff - Way and I'm the long give up for dead Jon Connington
Tyrion - man, whatever we've been smoking must be good.
Old Griff - We will take you to Daenyris to unite your forces together to retake the throne.
Tyrion - Don't do that, she will see you as a threat and execute you.
Old Griff - Shit didn't think of that.
Young Griff - On second thought, let us not go to Meereen it is a silly place. Let us go to Westeros instead.
Old Griff - Hmm.. not a bad idea.
Tyrion - now, let me find an excuse to get myself to a whorehouse so I can be abducted by a mad bear and be sold into slavery as a Chessgnome.

and so ends the targaryen conflict in the dance of dragons... I'm sort of expecting the epilogue in the last book to be about how the Great Other makes his first appearance in the books, brings the wall down and rampages through westeros killing all the characters and bringin on a new ice age.

Martin has spent 10 years now writing AFFC and ADWD and to be honest, in B5 terms, neither seems to be an arc episode. It's almost like the plot paused and characters all went on binges of fleshing out and self development.

If the entire point of Quentin Martell is to fill in for the sun setting in the east bit from (as it appears now)

Quote"When the sun rises in the west and sets in the east," said Mirri Maz Duur. "When the seas go dry and mountains blow in the wind like leaves. When your womb quickens again, and you bear a living child. Then he will return, and not before."

Then I suppose that the dothraki sea will go dry, the mountain will be swept away by some storm (or whoever is the faith's champion against robert strong) and Dany will get Pregnant by Dario Naharis (though it seems like she aborted in the Dragonstone scenes with Drogon) and Khal Drogo will live on as the Dragon Drogon.

damn you Martin, you made me get used to trope breaking....

Now all we need to see is that the White Knight (and white beard) will mount the white Viserion and Jorah Mormont (the green bear) will mount the green Rhaegal once he brings Tyrion to Dany to be her hand.

I hope he gets paid well.  It must be tough going five years between paychecks.

Quote from: HisMajestyBOB on July 31, 2011, 10:59:06 AM
http://io9.com/5820288/george-rr-martins-song-of-ice-and-fire-may-turn-out-to-be-eight-books-instead-of-seven

QuoteTalking to the Atlantic, George R.R. Martin admits that he may not be able to wrap up his massive A Song of Ice and Fire series in just two more books.

Jordanitis :(

:nelson: x eleventybillion

Think fatguy will last another 20 years? He doesnt look that well on the pictures.

Quote from: Viking on July 31, 2011, 11:35:43 AMIf the entire point of Quentin Martell is to fill in for the sun setting in the east bit from (as it appears now)

Quote"When the sun rises in the west and sets in the east," said Mirri Maz Duur. "When the seas go dry and mountains blow in the wind like leaves. When your womb quickens again, and you bear a living child. Then he will return, and not before."

Then I suppose that the dothraki sea will go dry, the mountain will be swept away by some storm (or whoever is the faith's champion against robert strong) and Dany will get Pregnant by Dario Naharis (though it seems like she aborted in the Dragonstone scenes with Drogon) and Khal Drogo will live on as the Dragon Drogon.

i really, really hate this.. theory that has been floating around (especially on that god damn westeros forum!). there seems to be a certain percentage of readers who will take something from the books and try and apply it to every-fucking-situation.

i've seen posts arguing that the lights tyrion saw above the bridge in that chapter with the stonemen attack might be an early instance of glamor magic. others have tried to say this and that are wargs or were controlled by wargs (snow's killers were all warged into it! it is known). don't even get me started on the aegon = fake! argument, which i see faeelin has thankfully denounced already in this thread. varys lies to a dead man for no reason whatsoever. OK

i have never taken mirri's little final word to daenerys as anything more than a sarcastic response, such as when pigs fly. naturally, the use of lame and abundant prophecies martin has been throwing at the audience left and right (especially) since AFFC has left the retarded-theory crowd (not directed at you, viking, more at the legion over at westeros.org) hooked on the idea that it's a prophecy. sure, quentyn is of dorne, and dorne's symbol is a sun, but ya know... that's as similar a "connection" to mirri's dialogue as any numerologist's crackpot theory to the bible, or a stack of newspapers

i just don't see how a return of drogo, no matter what the incarnation--whether it be his "spirit," another son in the future (with drogo's face as one westeros poster suggested!), or a drogo manifested by his cremated remains--could possibly be a worthy addition to the story. drogo is dead; he's not coming back, not even if daenerys fucks all the dothraki and their horses will anything connected to him return

I hope Jon stays dead.
I hope Daenarys dies as well, and Tyrion, Penny, and Patchface become the Dragonriders.

Seriously though, I think Bran is the most interesting character.
He is about to reach superpowerdom.
Who needs the internet if you got the Weirwoodnet.

I think GRRM watched James Cameron's "Avatar" once too many times.

Quote from: Siege on July 31, 2011, 07:44:27 PM
I hope Jon stays dead.
I hope Daenarys dies as well, and Tyrion, Penny, and Patchface become the Dragonriders.

jon can't die/(edit)stay dead, because jon is every 15 year old fanboy's dream hero; plus he has plot-invincibility. daenerys too. miss slavery is fun really needs to get raped and then eaten alive by someone or something. that would be a satisfying conclusion to penny's character arc

Why is Jon such a hero?
He only does boring stuff up in the cold.
He didn't take part in any of the cool stuff, namely the feudal struggle for control of the Iron Throne.
He got no bannermen to call, no smallfolk to rule, not even trueborn heritage to his own House, let alone to claim the throne.

he's just always been that -character with a broken past- who never acts wrongly, has noble intentions forever, and can work around any problem as he rises from enlistee to lord commander of the mother-fucking-wall within a year's time. since jon-chapter one in game of thrones, something about him screamed main character. i've never really particularly liked him, though i can certainly understand why he is a fan favorite

For me Jon is the second-most boring character in the series (Bran being the most boring).

Quote from: LaCroix on July 31, 2011, 08:22:25 PM
he's just always been that -character with a broken past- who never acts wrongly, has noble intentions forever, and can work around any problem as he rises from enlistee to lord commander of the mother-fucking-wall within a year's time. since jon-chapter one in game of thrones, something about him screamed main character. i've never really particularly liked him, though i can certainly understand why he is a fan favorite

Also he dresses in black and has an Albino wolf.  Dead give away that he's the hero in a fantasy novel.

Quote from: LaCroix on July 31, 2011, 07:28:41 PM
i've seen posts arguing that the lights tyrion saw above the bridge in that chapter with the stonemen attack might be an early instance of glamor magic.

'

I'm sorry, I don't understand this at all.

yeah, i don't either

Quote from: Tamas on July 27, 2011, 03:27:18 AM
Sort of. But if you like the world, it should be okay. I think it was on acceptable levels, except for the grand reopening of the pits which was looooooooooong.
I did not mind Vicarion and the other "fillers" - I got to learn what was going on those parts. And if you (well not you, but grumbler) say that this could have been covered more easily "on the side" or as brief flashbacks later, then sure, but that goes for almost all of the book's content and one is left wondering: why read it at all?

:lol:  You don't understand my concerns, or why I read the books.  That's okay.  I really wasn't expressing concerns or pointing out what I liked because I expected people like you to understand me; I expressed them because I expected discriminating readers to understand me, and they did.

You can feel free to enjoy any level of details and digressions that you wish, and that's your opinion.  You don't have to try to denigrate my opinions to express yours, however, especially when you didn't even address any of my issues, but erected some strawman about "why have a book if it doesn't have irrelevant details and POVs" instead.

I think the book is fine the way it is.
I enjoyed all the chapters, including the boring ones.
It could have certainly been better, more like Clash of Kings, but at least I did not get as bored as with the Feast.

Now, if someone could just kill Daenerys...

By the way, what do you guys make of Aegon?
I think that even if he is really who Varys says he is, he is not what Varys expects him to be.
I got a feeling that he got the Aerys The Mad streak.

Quote from: Siege on August 01, 2011, 08:32:22 PM
By the way, what do you guys make of Aegon?
I think that even if he is really who Varys says he is, he is not what Varys expects him to be.
I got a feeling that he got the Aerys The Mad streak.

Because he got angry losing a board game to a dwarf who was telling him how his life plan was going to fail?

This is Game of Thrones, so of course he'll be insane, but nothing in the book proves it, IMO.

Well Daenarys and Jon got the incompetence part*, so of course Aegon should get the mad part.
Rightful king Ramsay Bolton is, of course, the wise Targaryen.

*or maybe it's just them being teenagers.

Quote from: The Larch on July 29, 2011, 09:35:06 AM
Mandatory "Downfall" parody video. Spoilerrific, of course:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l0Jm_mT1G8Q (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l0Jm_mT1G8Q)

:lol:

You know nothing, Jon Snow

So I'm re-reading AFFC, and in one of the Sansa chapter Littlefinger asks her "Which is more dangerous? The enemy in front of you or the friend with dagger drawn behind your back?"

Know what he's eating while giving her the lecture? A pomegranate.

GRRM is insane.  :D

Quote from: HisMajestyBOB on August 01, 2011, 10:07:35 PM
Well Daenarys and Jon got the incompetence part*, so of course Aegon should get the mad part.
Rightful king Ramsay Bolton is, of course, the wise Targaryen.

*or maybe it's just them being teenagers.

Since when Ramsay Bolton is a Targaryen?

Quote from: Zoupa on August 02, 2011, 12:41:37 AM
So I'm re-reading AFFC, and in one of the Sansa chapter Littlefinger asks her "Which is more dangerous? The enemy in front of you or the friend with dagger drawn behind your back?"

Know what he's eating while giving her the lecture? A pomegranate.

GRRM is insane.  :D

I don't get it. What's the relevance of the pomegranate?

I think they call Bowen Marsh pomegranate

Quote from: Jaron on August 03, 2011, 03:42:57 PM
I think they call Bowen Marsh pomegranate

I found it:   "Not so," objected the Lord Steward, Bowen Marsh, a man as round and red as a pomegranate. "You ought to hear the droll names he gives the lads he trains." ...

Did anybody here realize Lord Manderly's "pork pies" had the 3 dead Freys in it?
If so what was the clue?

I kept thinking it was poison and he was going to go down while poisoning everybody at the feast.

Me too. I didn't think he'd cannibalize Freys.  :lol:

Quote from: Siege on August 03, 2011, 05:58:09 PM
Did anybody here realize Lord Manderly's "pork pies" had the 3 dead Freys in it?
If so what was the clue?

I kept thinking it was poison and he was going to go down while poisoning everybody at the feast.

That's what I thought too. I totally missed the cannibalism part until I saw it in the forums.

Quote from: Siege on August 03, 2011, 05:58:09 PM
Did anybody here realize Lord Manderly's "pork pies" had the 3 dead Freys in it?
If so what was the clue?

I kept thinking it was poison and he was going to go down while poisoning everybody at the feast.

I think that the main clue was him regretting not asking the bard to tell the story of the Rat Cook, a legend that also had cannibalism a la Titus Andronicus on it. That and his eagerness in serving the Freys the best pieces of both pies.

Yes, it was the Rat Cook mention.

Quote from: Iormlund on August 04, 2011, 07:26:05 AM
Yes, it was the Rat Cook mention.

Re-read that section.  You will find that there are lots of clues, once you are sensitized to them.

(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fstore.hbo.com%2Fimg%2Fproduct%2Fresized%2F642%2F00300310-149642_catl_281.jpg&hash=4933fcfa5b9365801292dc432e664a1209d0cc10)

(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fstore.hbo.com%2Fimg%2Fproduct%2Fresized%2F305%2F00300695-763305_catl_281.jpg&hash=0631ff524ba2c2be06dfe7db72438178285530e9)

Great map:  http://towerofthehand.com/maps/westeros.html?lat=-34.321&lng=-152.666&zoom=3

So, this Brynden dude that is a 3 eyed crow greenseer, I bet he is an Stark.
I always thought the 3-eyed-crow was one of the children of the forest.
How come so many Starks are skinchangers and greenseer?

Quote from: Siege on August 11, 2011, 05:32:10 PM
So, this Brynden dude that is a 3 eyed crow greenseer, I bet he is an Stark.
I always thought the 3-eyed-crow was one of the children of the forest.
How come so many Starks are skinchangers and greenseer?

—THE THREE-EYED CROW, also called THE LAST GREEN-SEER, sorcerer and dreamwalker, once a
man of the Night's Watch named BRYNDEN, now more tree than man,

Quote from: Viking on August 11, 2011, 05:54:24 PM

Quote from: Siege on August 11, 2011, 05:32:10 PM
So, this Brynden dude that is a 3 eyed crow greenseer, I bet he is an Stark.
I always thought the 3-eyed-crow was one of the children of the forest.
How come so many Starks are skinchangers and greenseer?

—THE THREE-EYED CROW, also called THE LAST GREEN-SEER, sorcerer and dreamwalker, once a
man of the Night’s Watch named BRYNDEN, now more tree than man,

And? Since when being of the Nightwatch is oppoussed to being an Stark?
I bet he is an Stark, Bran's great great grandfather, possibly.

Quote from: Siege on August 11, 2011, 05:57:30 PM

Quote from: Viking on August 11, 2011, 05:54:24 PM

Quote from: Siege on August 11, 2011, 05:32:10 PM
So, this Brynden dude that is a 3 eyed crow greenseer, I bet he is an Stark.
I always thought the 3-eyed-crow was one of the children of the forest.
How come so many Starks are skinchangers and greenseer?

—THE THREE-EYED CROW, also called THE LAST GREEN-SEER, sorcerer and dreamwalker, once a
man of the Night's Watch named BRYNDEN, now more tree than man,

And? Since when being of the Nightwatch is oppoussed to being an Stark?
I bet he is an Stark, Bran's great great grandfather, possibly.

I didn't disagree with you.. I just gave you Bryndens reference in the appendix. The Wiki Article for ADWD has more info, some of it speculative.

We really ought to live this up, since we are unlikely to have a thread like this for half a decade.  I wonder if Languish will even be there by then.  I think there are less then 50 regular posters anymore.

Brynden is not a Stark. He is a bastard born member of a very prominent family though. :P

I thought he was explicitly mentioned as a Stark. Brynden Stark.

Quote from: HisMajestyBOB on August 11, 2011, 07:48:09 PM
I thought he was explicitly mentioned as a Stark. Brynden Stark.

No, Bran says he has an uncle Brynden (the Blackfish), Lord Brynden then suggests that the Blackfish might be named after himself.

he seems most likely to be

http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Brynden_Rivers

Quote from: Viking on August 11, 2011, 08:14:02 PM

Quote from: HisMajestyBOB on August 11, 2011, 07:48:09 PM
I thought he was explicitly mentioned as a Stark. Brynden Stark.

No, Bran says he has an uncle Brynden (the Blackfish), Lord Brynden then suggests that the Blackfish might be named after himself.

he seems most likely to be

http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Brynden_Rivers

Why do Albinos become badasses in Fantasy?  When in reality they just die early or are eaten by Africans.

Quote from: Razgovory on August 11, 2011, 08:44:48 PM

Quote from: Viking on August 11, 2011, 08:14:02 PM

Quote from: HisMajestyBOB on August 11, 2011, 07:48:09 PM
I thought he was explicitly mentioned as a Stark. Brynden Stark.

No, Bran says he has an uncle Brynden (the Blackfish), Lord Brynden then suggests that the Blackfish might be named after himself.

he seems most likely to be

http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Brynden_Rivers

Why do Albinos become badasses in Fantasy?  When in reality they just die early or are eaten by Africans.

Michael Moorcock sez so.

Quote from: Viking on August 11, 2011, 08:14:02 PM

Quote from: HisMajestyBOB on August 11, 2011, 07:48:09 PM
I thought he was explicitly mentioned as a Stark. Brynden Stark.

No, Bran says he has an uncle Brynden (the Blackfish), Lord Brynden then suggests that the Blackfish might be named after himself.

he seems most likely to be

http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Brynden_Rivers

It's not just likely, he is quite clearly Bloodraven.

I finished it and...yeah. Dissapointing. Especially if its another 5 years for the next one.
Little closure on Bran despite a heavy feeling of bad things, Rickon has vanished from the face of the earth, etc..

And is the Dornish knot that caused GRRM such trouble the guy wanting to marry Dani? Weird that conclusion would take so long....

Quote from: Ed Anger on August 11, 2011, 08:53:35 PM


Michael Moorcock sez so.

Even when I was 13 I could recognize that he was a shit writer.  I'm not even talking about plot and characterization but simply the ability to string words together and make them aesthetically pleasing.

Finished it a couple of weeks ago. Marginally worse that AFFC. Although there were a few good chapters, it was just tedious even the Tyrion bits. Not only that but Martin's writing is getting worse. I want to kick his fat arse every time he writes nuncle, much and more or little and less.

Unless the next one gets rave reviews (and the publishers pay out for an editor), I'm done with the series.

Quote from: Gups on August 12, 2011, 03:10:20 AM
Finished it a couple of weeks ago. Marginally worse that AFFC. Although there were a few good chapters, it was just tedious even the Tyrion bits. Not only that but Martin's writing is getting worse. I want to kick his fat arse every time he writes nuncle, much and more or little and less.

Unless the next one gets rave reviews (and the publishers pay out for an editor), I'm done with the series.

I was seriously, seriously getting tired of that words are wind expression. He used it like two hundred times.

Quote from: Tyr on August 12, 2011, 02:29:45 AM
Rickon has vanished from the face of the earth, etc..

Wasn't Davos sent to fetch him from some bad place? He's probably on Skagos.

Quote from: Razgovory on August 11, 2011, 08:44:48 PM

Quote from: Viking on August 11, 2011, 08:14:02 PM

Quote from: HisMajestyBOB on August 11, 2011, 07:48:09 PM
I thought he was explicitly mentioned as a Stark. Brynden Stark.

No, Bran says he has an uncle Brynden (the Blackfish), Lord Brynden then suggests that the Blackfish might be named after himself.

he seems most likely to be

http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Brynden_Rivers

Why do Albinos become badasses in Fantasy?  When in reality they just die early or are eaten by Africans.

There are no Africans in ASOIAF.

Quote from: Solmyr on August 12, 2011, 05:09:52 AM

Quote from: Razgovory on August 11, 2011, 08:44:48 PM

Quote from: Viking on August 11, 2011, 08:14:02 PM

Quote from: HisMajestyBOB on August 11, 2011, 07:48:09 PM
I thought he was explicitly mentioned as a Stark. Brynden Stark.

No, Bran says he has an uncle Brynden (the Blackfish), Lord Brynden then suggests that the Blackfish might be named after himself.

he seems most likely to be

http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Brynden_Rivers

Why do Albinos become badasses in Fantasy?  When in reality they just die early or are eaten by Africans.

There are no Africans in ASOIAF.

I fear for the Albinos of the Summer Isles.

Quote from: Razgovory on August 12, 2011, 02:58:38 AM

Quote from: Ed Anger on August 11, 2011, 08:53:35 PM


Michael Moorcock sez so.

Even when I was 13 I could recognize that he was a shit writer.  I'm not even talking about plot and characterization but simply the ability to string words together and make them aesthetically pleasing.

A while back, the sci fi book club had his Elric books in omnibus form. I decided I'd get them and re-read them. Holy crap was it bad. I hadn't remembered how emo that shit was.  :lol:

Quote from: The Larch on August 12, 2011, 02:24:50 AM

Quote from: Viking on August 11, 2011, 08:14:02 PM

Quote from: HisMajestyBOB on August 11, 2011, 07:48:09 PM
I thought he was explicitly mentioned as a Stark. Brynden Stark.

No, Bran says he has an uncle Brynden (the Blackfish), Lord Brynden then suggests that the Blackfish might be named after himself.

he seems most likely to be

http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Brynden_Rivers

It's not just likely, he is quite clearly Bloodraven.

D'oh. Not sure why I was convinced he was a Stark. Must have gotten confused.

Quote from: Ed Anger on August 12, 2011, 07:16:39 AM

Quote from: Razgovory on August 12, 2011, 02:58:38 AM

Quote from: Ed Anger on August 11, 2011, 08:53:35 PM


Michael Moorcock sez so.

Even when I was 13 I could recognize that he was a shit writer.  I'm not even talking about plot and characterization but simply the ability to string words together and make them aesthetically pleasing.

A while back, the sci fi book club had his Elric books in omnibus form. I decided I'd get them and re-read them. Holy crap was it bad. I hadn't remembered how emo that shit was.  :lol:

Well then Raz was a more astute reader at age 13 than I was (well, I think I was more like 11 or 12).  I thought they were cool then.

On a quick re-read 5 years ago?  Wow.   :Embarrass:

Just finished it.

Not exactly thrilled with it. Martin's still moving pieces, the whole book reads exactly like the second half of Feast for Crows. Also, too many POV's.

And I'm not a fan of how Martin wrote Dany. She tossed a guy on a funeral pyre out of pique and had the Unsullied trash Astapor but now all of a sudden she's paralyzed into inaction because she's afraid her dragons might nibble on some Meereenese?  :mad:

Although Wyman Manderly baking the missing Freys into pies was a nice touch I'll admit.

Quote from: Legbiter on August 12, 2011, 05:55:31 PM
Although Wyman Manderly baking the missing Freys into pies was a nice touch I'll admit.

Manderly is one of my new favourite characters.. though he does remind me suspiciously of Martin himself, what with this extreme fatness, extreme stark loyalty and all round general late delivery of promised products.

Quote from: Viking on August 12, 2011, 05:57:09 PM
Manderly is one of my new favourite characters.. though he does remind me suspiciously of Martin himself, what with this extreme fatness, extreme stark loyalty and all round general late delivery of promised products.

Yep, the thought crossed my mind as well.  :lol:

I just wish he'd done something more spectacular at Winterfell. Hell, I wish Martin had written up a big battle between Stannis and the Boltons but alas, it's all off-screen at best. Seriously, absolutly nothing of note has happened in the series for 10 years now.

And since he's killed off Jon Snow the whole Wall part of the series has pretty much gone off the rails. I mean who's left to care about at the Wall?

Zombie Jon, Lord of Winterfell.

I'm surprised fatty hasn't made Twinkie the Kid lord of Winterfell.

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Quote from: Iormlund on August 12, 2011, 06:28:19 PM
Zombie Jon, Lord of Winterfell.

Heh, why not. Zombie Catelyn is still running around somewhere.

Quote from: Ed Anger on August 12, 2011, 06:32:28 PM
I'm surprised fatty hasn't made Twinkie the Kid lord of Winterfell.

Sigh...yeah I could tolerate Martin's meandering writing if he was cranking out a new book every year or 2 but we'll have to wait 5 or 6 years for the next one and of course the fat bastard will never live long enough to complete the series. <_<

Well, at least I never started reading the Wheel of Time books.

Quote from: Legbiter on August 12, 2011, 06:25:02 PM

Quote from: Viking on August 12, 2011, 05:57:09 PM
Manderly is one of my new favourite characters.. though he does remind me suspiciously of Martin himself, what with this extreme fatness, extreme stark loyalty and all round general late delivery of promised products.

Yep, the thought crossed my mind as well.  :lol:

I just wish he'd done something more spectacular at Winterfell. Hell, I wish Martin had written up a big battle between Stannis and the Boltons but alas, it's all off-screen at best. Seriously, absolutly nothing of note has happened in the series for 10 years now.

And since he's killed off Jon Snow the whole Wall part of the series has pretty much gone off the rails. I mean who's left to care about at the Wall?

You Know Nothing Jon Snow. Melisandre the Red Priestess, following the same religion as Thoros of Myr and having recieved the same training as Thoros of Myr, might just get it into her head to do to Jon what Thoros did, repeatedly, to Berric Dondarrion.

The NW oath of course expires at the death of the oath taker. This releases Jon from his oath (since he has died and returned to life) and allows him to take the Thenns as well as other renegade wildlings and Karstarks loyal to Alys and he new husband to romp down south to retake Winterfell for House Stark just in time to meet up with Manderly (along with little Rickon) before Stannis (the battle was against Mors Umbers mummers siege) legitimizes Jon as a Stark. Rickon, refusing to become either Lord Stark or King in the North on the grounds that Bran still lives, makes Jon castellan of winterfell and his mighty hosts of the pupils of Jeor (Jon Snow), Jorah (Dany) and Alysane (Asha) will unite the forces of Greyjoy, Targaryen and Stark to smite the Lannisters leaving little Lanna Lannister (Tyrions daughter by the sailors wife viz. Tysha Lannister) as mistress of Casterly Rock.

Viking, you are out of your mind.
Jon is dead, Dany only think of sucking cock, and Asha will get powned the moment she place a foot on the iron islands.

Quote from: Legbiter on August 12, 2011, 06:25:02 PM

Quote from: Viking on August 12, 2011, 05:57:09 PM
Manderly is one of my new favourite characters.. though he does remind me suspiciously of Martin himself, what with this extreme fatness, extreme stark loyalty and all round general late delivery of promised products.

Yep, the thought crossed my mind as well.  :lol:

I just wish he'd done something more spectacular at Winterfell. Hell, I wish Martin had written up a big battle between Stannis and the Boltons but alas, it's all off-screen at best. Seriously, absolutly nothing of note has happened in the series for 10 years now.

It's hard to believe this is the same author that wrote the Battle of the Blackwater and gave it to us in all its glory. Whatever happened to him?
Maybe he got eaten by a his neeps and onions eating nuncle. Words are wind, especially when they fill a 900 page book with little action or accomplishment.

I have not bought this book. I greatly enjoyed the first two books but then became concerned at the slowdown of the story. It started to have a soap opera feel..........perhaps Eddard Stark is not really dead at all, perhaps he is Bobby Ewing and the whole thing is a dream.......

...........one ceases to care one way or the other.

Quote from: Richard Hakluyt on August 13, 2011, 08:15:45 AM
I have not bought this book. I greatly enjoyed the first two books but then became concerned at the slowdown of the story. It started to have a soap opera feel..........perhaps Eddard Stark is not really dead at all, perhaps he is Bobby Ewing and the whole thing is a dream.......

...........one ceases to care one way or the other.

This was the impression I was getting.  There seems to be inordinate number of people switched with a double right before they die.  Or in some cases simply come back from the dead.

Quote from: Razgovory on August 13, 2011, 09:23:05 AM

Quote from: Richard Hakluyt on August 13, 2011, 08:15:45 AM
I have not bought this book. I greatly enjoyed the first two books but then became concerned at the slowdown of the story. It started to have a soap opera feel..........perhaps Eddard Stark is not really dead at all, perhaps he is Bobby Ewing and the whole thing is a dream.......

...........one ceases to care one way or the other.

This was the impression I was getting.  There seems to be inordinate number of people switched with a double right before they die.  Or in some cases simply come back from the dead.

well yes. Initially, one of the things which grabbed me about the series was the ease Martin massacred seemingly important characters. Made for good reading because you would never know what was coming. But with characters being resurrected left and right, that aspect is being inflated to near-worthlessness. Jon is almost the last straw.

Quote from: Richard Hakluyt on August 13, 2011, 08:15:45 AM
I have not bought this book. I greatly enjoyed the first two books but then became concerned at the slowdown of the story. It started to have a soap opera feel..........perhaps Eddard Stark is not really dead at all, perhaps he is Bobby Ewing and the whole thing is a dream.......

...........one ceases to care one way or the other.

I feel with you. One of the main reasons I had to stop 100 or so pages into the third book.

How many people are actually resurrected or switched with a double?

Beric Dondarrion and Catelyn, neither of whom are very central to the greater story.
Bran and Rickon, but this is more of an in-story switch and we learn almost immediately that they are not dead.
Aegon, who might not actually be Aegon.
Mance, who is probably going to die anyway.
Gregor, who gets turned into Gregorstein.
Theon, who is not really switched since everybody seems to know who he is. And his storyline is ossum.

The dead Starks are dead. Robert and Renly are dead. Tywin is dead. Walder Frey will be eaten by Lord Manderly. Granted, Jon will almost certainly be resurrected in some way or turn out to be not quite dead (or be forcibly warged into his wolf a la Varamyr). But still, I don't see *that* many important characters getting resurrected.

Rob probably warged into Greywind. The Westerling squire stood his ground to help greywind escape (depending on which rumor you choose to listen to). Though I'm slightly confused why Robbwind and Nymeria haven't joined up.

Quote from: Viking on August 13, 2011, 12:35:10 PM
Though I'm slightly confused why Robbwind and Nymeria haven't joined up.

:huh:  What interest would Nymeria have in finding a half-wolf, half-boy corpse?

http://www.collegehumor.com/video/6579356/game-of-thrones-rpg

Quote from: Habbaku on August 13, 2011, 12:36:45 PM

Quote from: Viking on August 13, 2011, 12:35:10 PM
Though I'm slightly confused why Robbwind and Nymeria haven't joined up.

:huh:  What interest would Nymeria have in finding a half-wolf, half-boy corpse?

greywind's head being stitched onto Robbs body is second hand and merely one among many rumors.

I'm pretty sure that if Grey Wind was running around somewhere, people would notice and talk about it. Like how many different people talk about sightings of Nymeria and her pack.

Quote from: Solmyr on August 13, 2011, 04:28:04 PM
I'm pretty sure that if Grey Wind was running around somewhere, people would notice and talk about it. Like how many different people talk about sightings of Nymeria and her pack.

Nymeria the direwolf is not the same as Robb permanently warged into Greywind. Greywind as a thinking reasoning monster is far more frightening than Nymeria and her megapack.

Quote from: Viking on August 13, 2011, 03:24:45 PM

Quote from: Habbaku on August 13, 2011, 12:36:45 PM

Quote from: Viking on August 13, 2011, 12:35:10 PM
Though I'm slightly confused why Robbwind and Nymeria haven't joined up.

:huh:  What interest would Nymeria have in finding a half-wolf, half-boy corpse?

greywind's head being stitched onto Robbs body is second hand and merely one among many rumors.

There are multiple sources that talk of how the "beast" was killed.  You're just making rumors up at this point.

Quote from: Solmyr on August 13, 2011, 12:29:08 PM
How many people are actually resurrected or switched with a double?

Beric Dondarrion and Catelyn, neither of whom are very central to the greater story.
Bran and Rickon, but this is more of an in-story switch and we learn almost immediately that they are not dead.
Aegon, who might not actually be Aegon.
Mance, who is probably going to die anyway.
Gregor, who gets turned into Gregorstein.
Theon, who is not really switched since everybody seems to know who he is. And his storyline is ossum.

The dead Starks are dead. Robert and Renly are dead. Tywin is dead. Walder Frey will be eaten by Lord Manderly. Granted, Jon will almost certainly be resurrected in some way or turn out to be not quite dead (or be forcibly warged into his wolf a la Varamyr). But still, I don't see *that* many important characters getting resurrected.

Davos Seaworth as well.

Quote from: Habbaku on August 13, 2011, 05:31:43 PM

Quote from: Viking on August 13, 2011, 03:24:45 PM

Quote from: Habbaku on August 13, 2011, 12:36:45 PM

Quote from: Viking on August 13, 2011, 12:35:10 PM
Though I'm slightly confused why Robbwind and Nymeria haven't joined up.

:huh:  What interest would Nymeria have in finding a half-wolf, half-boy corpse?

greywind's head being stitched onto Robbs body is second hand and merely one among many rumors.

There are multiple sources that talk of how the "beast" was killed.  You're just making rumors up at this point.

Raynald Westerling not freed the wolf from a net it was in when they started shooting bolts at it, before he was hacked and fell into the river... (remaining details left out)

QuoteAnd he'll have it, as soon as I grow a new hand, thought Jaime. "We all have expectations," he said mildly. "Tell me, is Ser Raynald Westerling amongst these captives?"
"The knight of seashells?" Edwyn sneered. "You'll find that one feeding the fish at the bottom of the Green Fork."
"He was in the yard when our men came to put the direwolf down," said Walder Rivers. "Whalen demanded his sword and he gave it over meek enough, but when the crossbowmen began feathering the wolf he seized Whalen's axe and cut the monster loose of the net they'd thrown over him. Whalen says he took a quarrel in his shoulder and another in the gut, but still managed to reach the wallwalk and throw himself into the river."
"He left a trail of blood on the steps," said Edwyn.
"Did you find his corpse afterward?" asked Jaime.

I think the wolf got away and I think Robb warged into the wolf before dying.

Raynald Westerling is the real Aegon Targaryon, and he isn't dead.

Quote from: Viking on August 13, 2011, 06:03:53 PM

QuoteAnd he'll have it, as soon as I grow a new hand, thought Jaime. "We all have expectations," he said mildly. "Tell me, is Ser Raynald Westerling amongst these captives?"
"The knight of seashells?" Edwyn sneered. "You'll find that one feeding the fish at the bottom of the Green Fork."
"He was in the yard when our men came to put the direwolf down," said Walder Rivers. "Whalen demanded his sword and he gave it over meek enough, but when the crossbowmen began feathering the wolf he seized Whalen's axe and cut the monster loose of the net they'd thrown over him. Whalen says he took a quarrel in his shoulder and another in the gut, but still managed to reach the wallwalk and throw himself into the river."
"He left a trail of blood on the steps," said Edwyn.
"Did you find his corpse afterward?" asked Jaime.

I think the wolf got away and I think Robb warged into the wolf before dying.

I thought "he" referred here to Raynald, not Grey Wind. Moreover, why would multiple people make up a story of putting the wolf's head on Robb's body if it didn't actually happen? And there's also the prophetic vision Dany saw of Robb being dead with a wolf's head on his shoulders.

it does seem  a  bit pointless acd fucked up even for  the freys but then tjere is a lot of pointless crap like that in history. also, the wolves. either through  summer or ghost at one point we hear of their siblings and how they  sense them nd im sure they say grey is dead

Quote from: Tyr on August 14, 2011, 06:50:03 AM
it does seem  a  bit pointless acd fucked up even for  the freys but then tjere is a lot of pointless crap like that in history. also, the wolves. either through  summer or ghost at one point we hear of their siblings and how they  sense them nd im sure they say grey is dead

nihongo keyboards difficult to type on?

I agree with the sentiment that GRRM cannot be taken seriously when he kills a character.

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Quote from: Siege on August 14, 2011, 07:11:13 PM
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Its Mayor McCheese!

Is the world of Westeros flat?

Quote from: Siege on August 15, 2011, 04:23:24 PM
Is the world of Westeros flat?

haven't you seen the opening credits? it's the inside of a sphere...

Quote from: Viking on August 15, 2011, 04:25:46 PM

Quote from: Siege on August 15, 2011, 04:23:24 PM
Is the world of Westeros flat?

haven't you seen the opening credits? it's the inside of a sphere...

And turtles all the way down :yes:

I forced myself to finally finish this. I should not have.  I could not have cared less about all the extra characters many of whom we knew nothing about and will not hear from again - eg the whole Mereen political scene. Reading endlessly about Mereen court life and whether Dany felt more comfortable holding court with pillows under her toosh then not could have been cut completely.

Tyrion and Jon became boring and those story lines have been the only reason for reading for that last two books. And now what? Zombie Jon like Lady Stark (who we didnt hear from at all) Warg Jon or some Deus Ex Machina device to come. The whole thing was a boring slog filled with characters I cared nothing about and frankly I hoped Martin would kill off in his usual style of attempting to shock the reader but which, after the same thing over and over again, isnt shocking at all.

There wasnt even any Littlefinger to give some respite from the tedium.

At least I dont have to worry about whether this series will be finished. It is for me.