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#91

Off the Record / Re: The EU thread

Last post by Sheilbh - Today at 07:19:33 AM

Was it not written and voted in by democratically elected Germans?  Was it not ratified by the German people?  These are honest questions.  I'd always assumed yes but now that it comes up I don't know for sure.

There were democratic processes for sure. So I could be totally wrong I think the state "legislatures" elected representatives to the drafting committee and then the state legislatures endorsed the Basic Law. But those state "legislatures" are to an extent advisory in the context of the allied occupation zones and administrators from France, UK and US - and it is in the context of hundreds of thousands of occupying troops.

My understanding is the Western allies basically gave a framework to those elected representatives to work within when drafting a constitution. I think there was some degree of sign-off as well, so if the occupying powers were not happy with provisions they either had a veto or could remove them.

What's really interesting though is that, from my understanding, many, many West German politicians and people did not want the Basic Law or any constitution at all. The German Historical Museum in Berlin is mostly closed for renovations but they've got a temporary exhibition on "turning points" and there's a couple around this time. Because many, many Germans do not want their country divided and writing a constitution for the areas occupied by the Western powers in effects institutionalises the split - I think this is around the time that Stalin makes his offer (which you can read however you want) of a disarmed, democratic, neutral, unified Germany) which the Western allies oppose and doesn't happen. Many Germans in the West wanted that. I believe that's part of the reason Germany ends up with a "provisional" Basic Law rather than a constitution - it allowed space for the aspiration to unification.

Italy's a really interesting counter-point though - because (as in the war) Italy's a bit of a sideshow. But also there were huge amounts of anti-fascist partisan fighting in Italy. So there's no "de-fascistification" in Italy. They very quickly have a referendum on monarchy or republic. They elect a constituent assembly which basically requires the (anti-fascist) Christian Democrats and Communists to do a deal. The outcome is what Italian commentators, lawyers, historians still refer to as the most "elegant" constitution in the world - everything's really very balanced, power is distributed, there's lots about  the rights of workers and the family. And it is, I think, one of the world's only explicitly anti-fascist constitutions because it was basically written by the intellectual wing of the partisans. Needless to say FdI is very explicitly anti-constitutional and wants to "reform" it in part because it fundamentally de-legitimises their politics.

But it's really interesting because it's so much less influenced by the allies - Italy's a sideshow, there are armed partisans on the edge of civil war and the Communists need to be brought in in a way that isn't the case in West Germany. But also how the understanding of the constitution as this anti-fascist bulwark built by the left and anti-fascist right is a really big part of its legitimacy.

Similarly with East Germany.  Did they have a say, like a referendum, or was it more like an annexation.

I think annexation is wrong - there are certainly people on the hard-left who talk in those terms.

My understanding is that East Germany acceded to West Germany's legal framework in order to form Germany, rather than both West and East Germans having a constitutional convention to create Germany. I don't know on the actual process or reason for that approach. I can't help but wonder, given that Thatcher, who went mad over this, and Mitterrand, who used it to get the Euro, were both very, very anxious about German reunification and a convention to debate "Germany" might have caused conniptions But I think there are queries about this now - there are novels by East German writers and I think they have flagged a feeling of loss/becoming "second class" less citizens who just became part of West Germany - and AfD and BSW voters both very strongly feel that the East is treated as "second class".

Edit :And of course this is framed by retrospection. It is the looking back of writers and people 30 years after the event. It perhaps may have been different in 1990 but, from my understanding, we don't necessarily know.

The whole thing?

Okay, I'll try again

My general view about constitutions is that everyone should be looking to comply. If it is too political it makes the operation of normal politics difficult because everything is constitutional and if it is too prescriptive it makes all procedure constitutional.

I think debt rules fall into the category of both. Tax and spending power is normally the base of democratic politics. And crises are regular (just not predictable) that may require extra spending or tax cuts for various reasons. Or it could simply be shifts in in-year accounting in the Finance Department or short-term shifts require a change because they have constitutional impacts?

On the one hand you could, in effect, ignore it. Or get around it through accounting tricks where the debate around policy decisions moves from being about the thing itself, to whether you can do it off-book or not. Or use the emergency exceptions. If you are regularly having to declare states of emergency to do normal politics of responding to crises, that is a problem.

But I think all of those have a problem because the constitution is no longer a document that you are trying to comply but one that you are regularly working to get around. I think that's not a good thing - and I think precedent matters. You'd be able to say "the other side did it" because non-compliance/working around the constitution gets baked into politics.

#92

Off the Record / Re: 2024 US Presidential Elect...

Last post by Tamas - Today at 06:50:38 AM

Yeah, not buying that DG.

#93

Off the Record / Re: TV/Movies Megathread

Last post by Crazy_Ivan80 - Today at 06:23:01 AM

Messiah also closes Paul's story very well, imho.

After that it gets weird, but not weird enough to not make some good films about until the death of the God Emperor. After that it is too weird. At least IMO.

You could probably make a few good movies of some type out of the last two books, but what would be the point since we don't have the Frank Herbert ending... plus indeed things being weird

#94

Off the Record / Re: 2024 US Presidential Elect...

Last post by Richard Hakluyt - Today at 06:04:25 AM

Yeah, even the business pages have mentioned her due to that massive tour and its effects on local economies.

#95

Off the Record / Re: 2024 US Presidential Elect...

Last post by Josquius - Today at 05:29:00 AM

Aye. 10 years ago it might be expected not to know her if you don't care about pop music. When I first learned of her existence, having started working in a high school, she was already apparently huge. Just seemingly out of nowhere all of a sudden.
But these days she pops up in general news.

#96

Off the Record / Re: The Off Topic Topic

Last post by Josquius - Today at 05:26:30 AM

Is it just Britain or is ita global thing that boys clothes are really depressing?
It's all black, brown, beige, camouflage green... If there's a primary colour it's really dull and muted.
And I'm not talking adult fashion here. It's clothes for little boys. 3 year olds.
 They want bright colours and pictures of animals.
But to get that you have to go to the girls section and try and find something without too many obvious frills.

#97

Off the Record / Re: 2024 US Presidential Elect...

Last post by crazy canuck - Today at 05:21:47 AM

Can anyone give a lowdown on what's so important about Taylor Swift endorsing Harris?  Or who Taylor Swift is, for that matter?

She is a popular celebrity with a fanatical and large following. She is a pop star who had been dominating the pop charts since about 2008 or so.

Oh and her boyfriend won the Super Bowl.

I can only assume you don't care much for pop culture or sports 

That's uncanny.  I don't in fact care much for either of those things.

She has been mentioned many times and in many contexts in the news and newspaper articles over several years and so the other thing we can surmise is you haven't read a newspaper in quite some time or listened to the news in any form in any medium for years.

#98

Off the Record / Re: The Off Topic Topic

Last post by crazy canuck - Today at 05:14:23 AM

And now he drives for Ferrari in F1 

#99

Off the Record / Re: 2024 US Presidential Elect...

Last post by crazy canuck - Today at 04:58:00 AM

I don't see many conservative voting in a CNN poll. Probably get the reverse numbers in a fox poll.

If anyone in a fox pill votes for Harris winning the debate it will mean Trump lost some of his core support.  Any percentage going to Harris in that poll would mean a huge Harris win.

#100

Off the Record / Re: 2024 US Presidential Elect...

Last post by Josquius - Today at 03:09:29 AM

It is all down to a relatively small number of voters in those seven or so swing states. Just takes a few Republican-leaning voters to think "hold on a minute, this man is an unhinged criminal" and Harris will get in.

But is remains baffling to me that people can fall for his nonsense. Well, not the oligarchs, the Trump USA will be a great place for them.

Even if he loses, if the election will be as close as it is predicted, that means the existential crisis for US democracy and the world order around it will remain, as someone WILL emerge to take Trump's place and they might not be this large fools, ergo they could be more dangerous.

Potentially so.

Though I do wonder whether trumps idiocy is key to idiots finding him relatable.
Imagine a younger smarter fascist trying the same schtick for instance.... Imaginable a lot of working class people just wouldn't trust him.