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#1

Off the Record / Re: Grand unified books thread

Last post by Jacob - Today at 06:05:57 PM

I think the "English author" and "single author" arguments are along the lines of what you're saying - if I understand you correctly.

Namely that there was some body of Scandinavian poetry around which the author drew on when they composed Beowulf, setting it in the real world locations in Scandinavia that they'd heard about. But that the writing down itself was the creative act, taking elements from different oral versions and arranging them to taste, adding bits where appropriate and excluding others, expressing a specific sets of themes and so on where they are of interest to the author and their time. That is, it's an English, Christian poem drawing on an older tradition - much like the play Hamlet while clearly set in Denmark and drawing on some older stories (Amled), but is nonetheless clearly an English play engaging with Elizabethan English concerns.

Perhaps your understanding is a softer version of this, but it sounds to me that it's in that direction?

Skre's contention takes issue with that - and I quote here - is that "... although it was likely first penned in Old English around AD 700, the epic poem Beowulf was composed in Scandinavia in the 6th century and reached Britain in the early 600s in a form close to the extant."

I'll quote the part of the section introducing the discussion, because it's very much the type of academic argument I enjoy following from the sidelines 

The Scandinavian-origin hypothesis was considered in the early period of Beowulf research (e.g. Stjerna 1912; Lindqvist 1948) but has not been seriously addressed in more recent scholarship, in which it "provokes only a consensus of mirth", according to Theodore M. Andersson (1997:129). However, the hypothesis has lingered among Scandinavian scholars, and recently, Bo Gräslund (2022) has forcefully argued for a Scandinavian origin of the poem. Would such an idea, as stated by Robert E. Bjork (2020:249) in his review of the 2018 Swedish edition of Gräslund's book, be "like claiming that Shakespeare's Roman plays should be attributed to Plutarch"? To be frank, considering the quite profound problems that the British-origin hypothesis answers only vaguely and unsatisfactorily (pp. 87-93), the glee reported by Andersson and Bjork's downright dismissal strikes some scholars versed in Scandinavian history and culture as amusingly audacious.

#2

Off the Record / Re: Iran War?

Last post by crazy canuck - Today at 06:03:47 PM

Apart from any moral qualms there are utilitarian reasons why bombing a girls' primary school and sinking the ship may have additional bad consequences. The USA is claiming to be fighting the current Iranian regime, it is a very obnoxious regime so many are loth to criticise, but the more civilian/non-regime assets that are destroyed the more it becomes a war against Iran the country rather than the regime. Right now a large proportion of Iran's population support the attacks by the USA....but how long will that last?

I think it would have been accurate to say that a large portion of the population supported taking out the Leader on day 1.  I think it is more difficult to argue that all those same people also support destroying the infrastructure a new government would need if regime change was actually going to occur.  And of course, as the civilian death toll and suffering increases, the less likely anyone tied to the American attacks is to take power.

#3

Off the Record / Re: Hungarian Politics

Last post by Neil - Today at 06:00:44 PM

It's been fun watching people on the internet melt down over Magyar having to play defence on Zelensky's idiocy.  Not that the Hungarian election really matters from the point of view of Ukraine.  Even if Hungary gets a proper government, Slovakia will still act as the Russian agent preventing the EU from applying itself as a bloc.

#4

Off the Record / Re: Iran War?

Last post by Zanza - Today at 05:58:55 PM

Right now a large proportion of Iran's population support the attacks by the USA...

Is that really so? Honest question. Obviously there are Iranians that support it, but "a large proportion"?

#5

Off the Record / Re: Hungarian Politics

Last post by Baron von Schtinkenbutt - Today at 05:56:20 PM

How American.

#6

Off the Record / Re: Hungarian Politics

Last post by Tamas - Today at 05:52:28 PM

So the 7 Ukrainians escorting the money and the gold have been handed over to Ukrainian officials. They have not been charged with any crimes. But Hungary is keeping the money.

#7

Off the Record / Re: Grand unified books thread

Last post by Sheilbh - Today at 05:13:00 PM

Well I can't speak to it in depth, relying as I am on Skre's summary which is primarily a "here's where I stand in this controversy, and why" as a building block towards his larger argument.

Interesting.

On single author v multiple I think I am more single author but working from multiple sources/traditions if that makes sense. But I can definitely see there'd be a debate around that - as there is with Homer and any other work from an oral society being pinned to text. One other reason for this is that while Beowulf (and all Anglo-Saxon poems) have some formulas and rote phrases, my understanding is that there are a lot fewer for a poem of its length than in, say Homer. My understanding is that those formulas are often understood as useful tools in an oral tradition - and is why I think there is more than just recording oral traditions going on but a very creative mixing and structuring but I think there are signs that the version we have is possibly written for text (from oral sources). I think what we have is very much a literary text and creation and not just a recording of a story overheard.

And yeah it is interesting that's a debate because I definitely remember the text book intro to Old English with the map of Denmark of where they thought the different places where but again I wonder if there's a difference I know nothing about between Old English readers and introductions v philology and archaeology. That would not suprise me

I'm not so sure on it being quite so unadulteratedly pagan. But I think it's right there is a fair bit of debate on that - my read was that it's a Christian poem but that is remembering set in the world of a pre-Christian world. But also fully aware the version that I remember is the very unfaithful translation by Seamus Heaney

#8

Off the Record / Re: Grand unified books thread

Last post by Jacob - Today at 04:17:27 PM

Skre's mostly accepted, yet in its time, controversial hypothesis was that the kingship of Norway was in the west at Avaldsnes. A slow building of strength.

Yeah, I imagine that's formed part of the thesis of the book - describing how Scandinavia changed from tribal to lordly to ultimately kingly social organization during that period. Though I'm still early in my reading - around p. 100 out of 550  ).

#9

Off the Record / Re: Grand unified books thread

Last post by Jacob - Today at 04:15:48 PM

FWIW I'd be interested to hear more about the Beowful comment.

...

Well I can't speak to it in depth, relying as I am on Skre's summary which is primarily a "here's where I stand in this controversy, and why" as a building block towards his larger argument.

Tolkien is mentioned primarily - I think  - because he's one of the originators of modern Beowulf scholarship. I don't think there are any aspersions cast his way.

There are basically two main points of contention - the single author vs multiple author question, and the English origin vs Scandinavian origin question... well three, I suppose, as the original date of origin as been argued to likely be at different points in the 5th, 6th, and 7th centuries. 

Arguments have apparently been going back and forth since the 50s and my impression is that there's not a wide consensus yet. Skre cites papers as recent as 2008 attempting to (unconvincingly he says) reconcile the archeological record with an Anglo-Saxon origin Beowulf, for example. It sounds, however, like your instruction was based on the "multiple author / Scandinavian origin" interpretation, which is Skre's as well. There's probably significant nuance on top of that (there always is), but I'm not sure I'm equipped to articulate it

Skre posits a world in which epic songs were performed by itinerant singers in the vein of Widsith across at least parts of the Germanic world as part of a kingly hall culture that had evolved. The languages were similar enough that the clever performer could adapt in different halls. The song or skaldic poem was largely self-contained and resistant to incidental change (due to the complexity of the form), but individual performers nonetheless added or changed elements to suit the specific audience.

Beowulf, Skre suggests, was composed in Scandinavia but the crossed into England, as it was part of a larger cultural continuum were such songs and poems were performed. That tradition of such performances continued into the Christian era where relevant changes were made to suit the (sometimes ecclesiastical) Christian audiences, but the remainder of was the poem was largely unadulteratedly pagan (though the concerns of that pagan warrior-ethos society were still relevant to the Christian warrior-ethos society which is the reason the songs were still performed).

One of Skre's primary arguments here (which I find compelling) is that the material culture described and implied in Beowulf matches the archeological record for an earlier Scandinavian authorship quite closely in ways that are absent in both the Anglo-Saxon Christian society in which Beowulf was written down, and I believe during the earlier periods where a proposed English author is would have composed it.

... that's my understanding anyhow

#10

Off the Record / Re: Iran War?

Last post by Jacob - Today at 03:44:17 PM

We knew what we were getting when the Senate confirmed Hegseth as SecDef.  Someone whose entire military career was a relatively junior officer role and then entered mass media. Someone with no experience managing large organizations and no experience in a role requiring strategic planning. Somone who had very strong opinions about NOT enforcing the laws of war on US military personnel and sought to exculpate those convicted of war crimes.  Somone with contempt for the laws of war and who believes that they are obnoxious and counterproductive restraints on a "warrior" ethos.  Someone who believes that any negative results in America's recent conflicts could be chalked up to the failure to unleash the military from moral or prudential restraints on conduct and from pursuing political objectives beyond kinetic destruction and applied lethality.

What we are seeing in Iran is exactly what America elected when it voted Trump in 2024 and then confirmed his choice of Hegseth.

It does seem like the US government is doing a speed run to unlearn the lessons from WWII and Vietnam around ethics, responsibility, and the use of force.