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#1

Off the Record / Re: What does a TRUMP presiden...

Last post by The Minsky Moment - Today at 11:24:09 PM

S&P futures down only 40 pts so far in the overnight.  Not as bad as I would have feared.  But will see what happens on market open.

[totality of the circumstances]

#2

Off the Record / Re: The Shooting Gallery: Poli...

Last post by The Minsky Moment - Today at 11:16:40 PM

I agree.  The only thing that matters in terms of the shooting is whether the movement of the car constituted an immediate threat.

That is not the only thing that matters.

I do think we need to distinguish between two different concepts: (1) whether a use of force by a law enforcement officer was justified in the sense that it was a necessary response and application of reasonable and proper law enforcement methods in context, and (2) whether it is justified in the legal sense of providing a valid legal defense to criminal prosecution or civil liability.

Many considerations are relevant to both: in both situations, the totality of the circumstances are relevant, including the events leading up to the event and even events afterward to the extent it reflects on motive.  However, the standards for (2) are somewhat more forgiving and subjective than for (1).  You can be acquitted of murder but that doesn't mean you weren't an unprofessional goon that has no business carrying weaponry and a badge in public.

Whether the car posed "an immediate threat" is relevant, but certainly not determinative. Did the officers do things to escalate or make that situation more likely to occur?  Could the threat be avoided by using means other than using lethal force?  How serious was the threat?  Did using lethal force meaningfully reduce the risk posed by the threat?

Many of those questions could be answered if a normal investigation were conducted, or a proper litigation, in which experts would analyze the car's movement and velocity in detail, as well as the officer's precise position and the timing and direction of the shots.  Alas, it seems we can't rely on the FBI to do that job objectively.  Perhaps the plaintiff's lawyers will unearth the truth assuming the feds don't despoil the evidence.

From my own unaided eye's view, it looks really bad. The officers appear to escalate the situation and act in a threatening manner. It looks like she is trying to escape, not harm. With the officer in front well to the left, she is turning her wheels sharply right - apparently perpendicular to his position. The car is moving from a dead stop and thus seems unlikely to be moving at a velocity to pose serious harm.  And indeed, the officer appear to be struck and suffer no visible harm.  But that's how it looks unaided.  A proper expert analysis if fairly conducted could answer these questions. 

#3

Off the Record / Re: What does a TRUMP presiden...

Last post by Razgovory - Today at 11:04:19 PM

That is concerning.  

#4

Off the Record / Re: The Shooting Gallery: Poli...

Last post by grumbler - Today at 10:52:40 PM

As a general principle, yes.  If shooting can't reasonably be expected to stop any harm, then you shouldn't be shooting.

Well, I don't think that's how the statute is written or generally interpreted and I would shoot.

The statute is written and interpreted as the use of deadly force is allowed if it is to prevent harm to the shooter or others. If the deadly force will not prevent the harm, it is banned.

Granted, the cop cannot always accurately gauge, in the heat of the moment, whether the use of force is going to achieve the desired results, but in this case the danger had passed before the ICE agent opened fire.  He shot as she passed by because he was pissed that she brushed him with the bumper of her car.

#5

Off the Record / Re: The Shooting Gallery: Poli...

Last post by Admiral Yi - Today at 10:09:49 PM

Your example doesn't work for this situation, as the killer placed himself in a threatening space by choosing to stand in front of the car.

No one said it did.

#6

Off the Record / Re: The Shooting Gallery: Poli...

Last post by Zoupa - Today at 10:06:58 PM

Your example doesn't work for this situation, as the killer placed himself in a threatening space by choosing to stand in front of the car.

And I'm being generous with threatening space, as the suburban mom was doing a 3-point turn in her minivan going 3 mph.

#7

Off the Record / 1776 - 250 Years On - Celebrat...

Last post by mongers - Today at 10:04:02 PM

This year marks 250 years on from the start of the war of independence, what are the celebrations going to be like?

What should happen and how much of them will the trumpists take over?

How much will the public and individual take stock and reflect upon the political situation.

IIRC the 1976 celebrations seemed quite restrained and well done, perhaps because of the hangover from Vietnam and Watergate.

The only thing I recall is seeing an F111 (?) with an elaborate paint job at some US airbase, I think it might have been when we were on holiday in Oxfordshire/somewhere in the East of the country?


My bet for worst event will be a push by the trumpist for trump's phizog to be added to Mount Rushmore or a nearby cliff-side/mountain?

#8

Off the Record / Re: The Shooting Gallery: Poli...

Last post by Admiral Yi - Today at 09:56:13 PM

As a general principle, yes.  If shooting can't reasonably be expected to stop any harm, then you shouldn't be shooting.

Well, I don't think that's how the statute is written or generally interpreted and I would shoot.

#9

Off the Record / Re: (Great Power) War in Our T...

Last post by mongers - Today at 09:54:08 PM

We're already in it, trump has flipped the US to side with Putin.

#10

Off the Record / Re: (Great Power) War in Our T...

Last post by Jacob - Today at 09:53:43 PM

Turkey won't flip to Russia. Their whole thing is playing the middle to get the most out of it, while being a regional power.

Russia is a direct threat to Turkey, and they are competitors in the Caucasus (and Syria / Iran fir that matter).

If Turkey igns with Russia it'll only be because Europe is broken and the US really fucked up.