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#1
Off the Record / Re: Brexit and the waning days...
Last post by OttoVonBismarck - Today at 10:51:17 AMA big blind spot I find in this topic is Europe has become so secular-extremist that people struggle to understand or admit that much of what we call Western culture was built by Christianity.
That isn't to say you have to be religiously Christian to be Western, but I think it is hard to not be culturally Christian and be Western. I also think due to Europe's extreme secularism, they have difficulty admitting that Islam has always been outside of Christendom definitionally.
From a meta perspective this doesn't mean the Islamic world is intrinsically bad and the Western world is intrinsically good. My personal take is Western culture is intrinsically superior to Islamic culture, but it's not some law of nature, that falls upon the simple level of "personal opinion." And much of that personal opinion is predicated on the fact that I am of the West, I was raised in this culture, and it is quite normal that the values I hold are better expressed in that culture than in an entirely different cultural system. I am not at all surprised that the vast majority of people in the Islamic world view their world as superior to the Western world (commonly calling us decadent and numerous other things, some of which have elements of truth in them.)
For we children of the West, the Western world is ours, it is that from which we emerged. The Islamic world is not part of that. In modern times the Islamic world does not have to be an enemy of the West, but the practical reality is that it is an enemy of the West. Maybe some day that ancient conflict will simmer down and the two worlds can live in greater harmony, but that time is not today, despite the idealism Euro secularists often seem to hold on this topic.
A simple point--the situation in Gaza has fuck all to do with either the United Kingdom, France, or the United States, in a broad sense. The reason people care is because on some level everyone accepts what I have long said--this is a front line in the battle between two cultures, Western culture and Islamic culture.
That's why you find support for Palestinians so entrenched among lefties who are often innately anti-Western (despite being the corrupted children of the West.) It is why you find Muslim university students in the West--most of whom probably don't attend mosque on Friday and who probably live in a very Western way in their personal lives, are so pro-Palestinian even if they have no direct connection to Palestine. While they may have adopted some trappings of the West, they too recognize intrinsically this is a front line in the West vs Islam battle, and as children of Islamic culture they still identify with it.
That isn't to say you have to be religiously Christian to be Western, but I think it is hard to not be culturally Christian and be Western. I also think due to Europe's extreme secularism, they have difficulty admitting that Islam has always been outside of Christendom definitionally.
From a meta perspective this doesn't mean the Islamic world is intrinsically bad and the Western world is intrinsically good. My personal take is Western culture is intrinsically superior to Islamic culture, but it's not some law of nature, that falls upon the simple level of "personal opinion." And much of that personal opinion is predicated on the fact that I am of the West, I was raised in this culture, and it is quite normal that the values I hold are better expressed in that culture than in an entirely different cultural system. I am not at all surprised that the vast majority of people in the Islamic world view their world as superior to the Western world (commonly calling us decadent and numerous other things, some of which have elements of truth in them.)
For we children of the West, the Western world is ours, it is that from which we emerged. The Islamic world is not part of that. In modern times the Islamic world does not have to be an enemy of the West, but the practical reality is that it is an enemy of the West. Maybe some day that ancient conflict will simmer down and the two worlds can live in greater harmony, but that time is not today, despite the idealism Euro secularists often seem to hold on this topic.
A simple point--the situation in Gaza has fuck all to do with either the United Kingdom, France, or the United States, in a broad sense. The reason people care is because on some level everyone accepts what I have long said--this is a front line in the battle between two cultures, Western culture and Islamic culture.
That's why you find support for Palestinians so entrenched among lefties who are often innately anti-Western (despite being the corrupted children of the West.) It is why you find Muslim university students in the West--most of whom probably don't attend mosque on Friday and who probably live in a very Western way in their personal lives, are so pro-Palestinian even if they have no direct connection to Palestine. While they may have adopted some trappings of the West, they too recognize intrinsically this is a front line in the West vs Islam battle, and as children of Islamic culture they still identify with it.
#2
Off the Record / Re: Brexit and the waning days...
Last post by Razgovory - Today at 10:50:23 AMQuote from: HVC on Today at 10:41:04 AMNo, hate is rather complicated and while it's clear what Norge meant, he is simply incorrect.Quote from: The Brain on Today at 10:32:45 AMSeems weird to paint a both in theory and practice universalist religion like Islam as being about race.
While not wholly or solely based on the colour it does play a part in the hate of muslims. Hate is simplistic. I mean the sikhs attacked after 9/11 probably felt their skin colour had something to do with their beatings.
In any case etymology is weak moral defense. Norges meaning was obvious.
And Norge, if it makes any difference, my dislike of greens has nothing to do with who votes for them
#3
Off the Record / Re: Brexit and the waning days...
Last post by Razgovory - Today at 10:48:20 AMQuote from: Norgy on Today at 10:38:52 AMSeems more weird to think there are races.Racism is real, but races are not scientifically real. But ancestry is also real.
#4
Off the Record / Re: TV/Movies Megathread
Last post by HVC - Today at 10:47:43 AMWatched a few episodes. It's good, but intense. I was never really into the drama medical shows like this, or ER (and even less so the soap opera style Greys). But i really did love the original scrubs... of which their was only was 8 seasons 
So i was worried about the new show. It's still only 2 episodes in so can easily go off the rails.
So i was worried about the new show. It's still only 2 episodes in so can easily go off the rails. #5
Off the Record / Re: Brexit and the waning days...
Last post by OttoVonBismarck - Today at 10:43:06 AMRacial theory is pretty bunk to begin with--but I would note the left is guilty of leaning on it pretty commonly, like we saw in this very thread when people immediately retrench to racist arguments about a non-race based religion like Islam.
I think there's still a lot of racism on the right, of course--and a more virulent type in most cases. But there's a lot of left wing ideas that actually enshrine racial theory in a negative way--particularly in affirmative action programs, race quotas etc.
I think there's still a lot of racism on the right, of course--and a more virulent type in most cases. But there's a lot of left wing ideas that actually enshrine racial theory in a negative way--particularly in affirmative action programs, race quotas etc.
#6
Off the Record / Re: Brexit and the waning days...
Last post by Sheilbh - Today at 10:41:39 AMI think Muslims (including people who are not Muslim but "appear" Muslim) experience discrimination, both on a structural and sort of "everyday" level that is somewhat analogous to racism. I think that's what Islamophobia usefully describes.
I think it's a huge problem in Europe, including the UK. I think part of the problem is that in the framing of it I think we are downstream of the US - part of this is simply that in the US there are people who have thought through aspects of racism more and have expressed that. But I think that does mean that some of the framing is from the American experience which I think understandably centres on anti-black racism and white supremacy in the context of a slave society. Whereas I think Islamophobia is as important to the development of European identities (I think the Islamic world is, to use the overly-academic phrase, Europe's constitutive other) - and interacts with race - but I don't think we have had the same level of thought (or activism actually) in this area. So the framing that can apply sometimes fits uneasily and in a way that can give European bigots a bit of an out.
Is it right to call Islamophobia racism? Probably not. Is that definitional argument much more than angels dancing on the head of a pin? Not really.
Edit: I'd add the leading anti-Islamophobia group in the UK (equivalent to the Community Safety Trust) condemned the Green ads as promoting sectarian division. As I mentioned and garbon flagged all the big parties have some record of this - I don't think it will lead anywhere good if the parties are playing with that stuff every 4-5 years because a vote's a vote.
I think it's a huge problem in Europe, including the UK. I think part of the problem is that in the framing of it I think we are downstream of the US - part of this is simply that in the US there are people who have thought through aspects of racism more and have expressed that. But I think that does mean that some of the framing is from the American experience which I think understandably centres on anti-black racism and white supremacy in the context of a slave society. Whereas I think Islamophobia is as important to the development of European identities (I think the Islamic world is, to use the overly-academic phrase, Europe's constitutive other) - and interacts with race - but I don't think we have had the same level of thought (or activism actually) in this area. So the framing that can apply sometimes fits uneasily and in a way that can give European bigots a bit of an out.
Is it right to call Islamophobia racism? Probably not. Is that definitional argument much more than angels dancing on the head of a pin? Not really.
Edit: I'd add the leading anti-Islamophobia group in the UK (equivalent to the Community Safety Trust) condemned the Green ads as promoting sectarian division. As I mentioned and garbon flagged all the big parties have some record of this - I don't think it will lead anywhere good if the parties are playing with that stuff every 4-5 years because a vote's a vote.
#7
Off the Record / Re: Brexit and the waning days...
Last post by HVC - Today at 10:41:04 AMQuote from: The Brain on Today at 10:32:45 AMSeems weird to paint a both in theory and practice universalist religion like Islam as being about race.
While not wholly or solely based on the colour it does play a part in the hate of muslims. Hate is simplistic. I mean the sikhs attacked after 9/11 probably felt their skin colour had something to do with their beatings.
In any case etymology is weak moral defense. Norges meaning was obvious.
And Norge, if it makes any difference, my dislike of greens has nothing to do with who votes for them
#8
Off the Record / Re: Brexit and the waning days...
Last post by Norgy - Today at 10:38:52 AMSeems more weird to think there are races.
#9
Off the Record / Re: Brexit and the waning days...
Last post by Crazy_Ivan80 - Today at 10:36:21 AMQuote from: The Brain on Today at 10:32:45 AMSeems weird to paint a both in theory and practice universalist religion like Islam as being about race.
It's racialisation, makes it easier to silence people that oppose the ideology. Its of course dangerous as you can make it work in any direction.
#10
Off the Record / Re: Quo Vadis GOP?
Last post by Sheilbh - Today at 10:32:54 AMQuote from: crazy canuck on Today at 08:10:38 AMHillary was a distraction. Bill was a sexual predator and should actually be investigated.I agree - I think I have changed my mind and view on Bill Clinton quite profoundly over the last decade or so.
Having said that I think there are many people in America's elites who frankly seem to be deserving of investigation. I'm not sure this is the right type of investigation - from what I can see some of it should be criminal. And I think that it is Congressional hearings is almost already conceding the point that there won'tbe criminal investigations or accountability it will be straight to the parliamentary theatre stage of investigation (which, to be clear, I think can and does serve its own purpose).