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#1
Off the Record / Re: Brexit and the waning days...
Last post by HVC - Today at 02:30:08 PMPS the due diligence isn't about giving him citizenship, if he's entitled he's entitled, it's championing him for how many years without, it seems, even a rudimentary check.
#2
Off the Record / Re: Brexit and the waning days...
Last post by Sheilbh - Today at 02:24:44 PMQuote from: Josquius on Today at 01:29:31 PMI'd see it that the tories didn't do their due diligence when they granted him citizenship.I'm a bit mixed.
Make a case he shouldn't have been granted it fair enough
But stripping someone of their citizenship for saying dumb shit over a decade ago.... That's scary stuff.
In my view he was entitled to British citizenship and that exists as a matter of law. It, broadly, shouldn't be up to the state to do due diligence on people entitled to citizenship's applications (although I think there should be more discretion for naturalisation). But I note the Egyptian point on that and would probably look into how it came about as he doesn't seem like someone who'd make an application so I do find it a bit odd.
Once he's a citizen the state should make representations and provide consular support. But I don't think they need to be doing that to the utmost in every case. Repeated governments made this case a priority - I query the due diligence at that point (especially compared with, say, Jimmy Lai). Similarly I query the decision making that had the government debasing itself with their repeated statements of gratitude to a tyrant or that made this a big Christmas news story. As I say I don't think anyone actually investigted. They saw an effective campaign, good coverage on the BBC and Guardian (a barrister I know read the Guardian article on this today and El Fattah's apology and said it reads like a skeleton argument for the defence
) and assumed someone else had actually done the leg work and if there was an issue this would be raised with them. I also think there may be a side of FCDO thinking just gently guiding repeated governments on this.Having said all that, I am broadly opposed to stripping citizenship from people. I didn't like it when we did it with Jack Letts or Shamima Begum for going to fight for ISIS - but part of that is because I think ultimately they lived in Britain their whole lives. They're our responsibility and our fault and it's not fair for us to dump them on Iraq, Syria or the countries where they're entitled to citizenship. In this case I'm less sure just because the guy never lived in Britain, doesn't seem to have any attachment to the UK and basically seems to have acquired citizenship in order to access consular support - I feel it's less of an abdication of responsibility for him and he does have another citizenship clearly.
But on the fourth (or fifth?) hand I think it's insane that Palestine Action are proscribed. I don't like the way some our speech-based crimes (and non-crime incidents) have developed in recent years (not least because I think it makes it more difficult for us to make a principled argument against regime's like Sisi's - e.g. Starmer criticising a government for jailing a man for sending a tweet). I certainly don't think they should be the basis for deportation or stripping citizenship but they are in the law right now - and luckily there is zero risk that we will ever have a government that is not basically bien pensant liberals who could weaponise those speech laws
#3
Off the Record / Re: Brexit and the waning days...
Last post by HVC - Today at 01:51:54 PMQuote from: Sheilbh on Today at 01:25:06 PMI believe for support of a proscribed terrorist organisation and as a dual citizen he could be stripped of his British citizenship - and then deported to Egypt
They should do that. As close as you can get to a political win win in this situation. Your hands are morally clean and you fix a political fuck up.
And whoever is supposed to do due diligence for these MPs should be fired. I'm sure they can get some nice jobs with lobbyist and donors anyway.
#4
Off the Record / Re: Brexit and the waning days...
Last post by Sheilbh - Today at 01:47:09 PMHe tweeted his support for a proscribed terrorist organisation last week. I don't think they should be proscribed, but they were by this government. It's not just saying dumb shit a decade ago.
#5
Off the Record / Re: Brexit and the waning days...
Last post by Josquius - Today at 01:29:31 PMI'd see it that the tories didn't do their due diligence when they granted him citizenship.
Make a case he shouldn't have been granted it fair enough
But stripping someone of their citizenship for saying dumb shit over a decade ago.... That's scary stuff.
The main take away I have from the story though is the amazing hypocrisy. More should be made of this
Make a case he shouldn't have been granted it fair enough
But stripping someone of their citizenship for saying dumb shit over a decade ago.... That's scary stuff.
The main take away I have from the story though is the amazing hypocrisy. More should be made of this
#6
Off the Record / Re: Brexit and the waning days...
Last post by Sheilbh - Today at 01:25:06 PMI think it's sort of fascinating because I think it is quite systemic and indicative of the "uniparty"/governing class groupthink that is real catnip for Reform.
So the background is an Egyptian-British activist, Alaa Abd El-Fattah who is a pro-democracy activist in Egypt who was involved in the revoluti. Hewas repeatedly arrested and tortured by Egyptian security forces and ultimately arrested and convicted of spreading "false news undermining national security". Then detained without grounds.
The "Egyptian-British" requires a little bit of explanation as he was born in Egypt and has spent his entire life in Egypt. His father is an Egyptian human rights lawyer and activist of very long standing going way back to the 70s. His mother is Laila Soueif (sister of Ahdaf Soueif, who is a fantastic novelist) - who is Egyptian-British as she was born in London when we had birthright citizenship. El-Fattah obtains British citizenship (via his mother) in 2021 after his arrest and conviction. The British government's line has always been this was an absolutely normal process, he's entitled to it and claimed it. The Egyptian state says that it was an irregular and, in their view, improper process in effect allowing Britain to intervene and campaign in what, in their view, was a process dealing with an Egyptian citizen, activist and revolutionary. It is worth pointing out that under international law on dual citizenship he is in effect fully Egyptian in respect of his conduct in Egypt and vis-a-vis the Egyptian state.
There's been a very strong campaign around El-Fattah in the UK since, including multiple hunger strikes by him and his mother. It's achieved a lot of attention. Celebrities, such as Dame Judi Dench or Sir Stephen Fry, joined the campaigns for his freedom as did various European parliaments, including in the UK. There were joint letters by MPs from all parties and running the full gamut from the hard left (Abbott and Corbyn) to very, very right-wing like the DUP's Sammy Wilson. Numerous governments pushed very strong for his release as a British citizenship. Rishi Sunak described it as number one priority for the FCDO, it was raised during visits to Egypt or by Egyptians under Johnson too and has been described recently by Starmer's government as a "day one" focus for the FCDO. There's also been a lot of coverage about him over the years in the Guardian and BBC etc.
He was released and came to the UK.
This was greeted as a big achievement. Starmer's Twitter post is indicative - but striking was that this was (with variations) also posted by most of the Cabinet. Lots of Tory MPs who'd been ministers or supportive of the campaign also praised the government for getting this done. Here is Starmer's:
Two points that are striking about this. First is that the coordinated tweeting from the Cabinet indicate they thought this was a big win (something numerous Tory governments had tried and failed etc). Second is the line to President Sisi (also in all of Cabinet ministers' statements) - which was clearly part of the deal for his release. So not without spending political and diplomatic capital.
Then people started looking at what El Fattah has posted/said. He has since explained some of his tweets. I think the homophobic one ("because no medicine can reverse god's will. he should subject his anger at good for creating those dirty homosexual.") and Holocaust denial ones ("yes and there was no genocide against jes by the naxis after all many jews are left") were genuinely sarcastic and have been taken out of context.
I don't fully buy that excuse on the others, for example "yes, I consider killing any colonialists and specially zionists heroic, we need to kill more of them" (in discussion on the Munich Olympics), "dear zionits please don't ever talk to me, I'm a violent person who advocated the killing of all zionists including civilians, so fuck of". Plus, from what I understand all his posts on the "British" including the helpful explanation "dogs and monkeys", posts about white people he says are because he is "a racist" and other stuff like that ("unfortunately the Iranian nuclear project isn't dedicated to the extermination of the white man; Bin Laden's odds are higher").
The FCDO have said they find his past tweets "abhorrent". He has apologised for any hurt caused and the Home Office have said they find his apology "fulsom". But this is obviously causing a bit of a row - not least because of how hard the government comms went in on this (as I say, they clearly viewed it as a win). I think the press that supported his campaign are also strugglinga little bit - for the first day or so on the BBC you wouldn't know this bit of the story.
I found this from Alician Kearns most revealing (my bold) of a lot of what went on here. She's a Tory MP and former Chair of the Foreign Affairs Select Committee (now shadow Home Office minister):
(Not sure she should feel betrayed and let down for not doing any DD on the campaigns she's supporting.)
When Starmer raised El Fattah's case at PMQ's with Sunak he described him as someone who was in prison for sending a tweet. So the bit I find quite (grimly lauch or cry) funny in a way is that just six days ago El Fattah tweeted his support for Palestine Action who are, of course, a proscribed terrorist organisation. From my understanding that tweet is illegal. If he repeats that in this county which, as an activist wouldn't be a surprise, he may end up getting arrested by the British state for sending a tweet. I believe for support of a proscribed terrorist organisation and as a dual citizen he could be stripped of his British citizenship - and then deported to Egypt
I think it's an interesting case because there's lots going on that I think are revealing in different ways.
So the background is an Egyptian-British activist, Alaa Abd El-Fattah who is a pro-democracy activist in Egypt who was involved in the revoluti. Hewas repeatedly arrested and tortured by Egyptian security forces and ultimately arrested and convicted of spreading "false news undermining national security". Then detained without grounds.
The "Egyptian-British" requires a little bit of explanation as he was born in Egypt and has spent his entire life in Egypt. His father is an Egyptian human rights lawyer and activist of very long standing going way back to the 70s. His mother is Laila Soueif (sister of Ahdaf Soueif, who is a fantastic novelist) - who is Egyptian-British as she was born in London when we had birthright citizenship. El-Fattah obtains British citizenship (via his mother) in 2021 after his arrest and conviction. The British government's line has always been this was an absolutely normal process, he's entitled to it and claimed it. The Egyptian state says that it was an irregular and, in their view, improper process in effect allowing Britain to intervene and campaign in what, in their view, was a process dealing with an Egyptian citizen, activist and revolutionary. It is worth pointing out that under international law on dual citizenship he is in effect fully Egyptian in respect of his conduct in Egypt and vis-a-vis the Egyptian state.
There's been a very strong campaign around El-Fattah in the UK since, including multiple hunger strikes by him and his mother. It's achieved a lot of attention. Celebrities, such as Dame Judi Dench or Sir Stephen Fry, joined the campaigns for his freedom as did various European parliaments, including in the UK. There were joint letters by MPs from all parties and running the full gamut from the hard left (Abbott and Corbyn) to very, very right-wing like the DUP's Sammy Wilson. Numerous governments pushed very strong for his release as a British citizenship. Rishi Sunak described it as number one priority for the FCDO, it was raised during visits to Egypt or by Egyptians under Johnson too and has been described recently by Starmer's government as a "day one" focus for the FCDO. There's also been a lot of coverage about him over the years in the Guardian and BBC etc.
He was released and came to the UK.
This was greeted as a big achievement. Starmer's Twitter post is indicative - but striking was that this was (with variations) also posted by most of the Cabinet. Lots of Tory MPs who'd been ministers or supportive of the campaign also praised the government for getting this done. Here is Starmer's:
QuoteKeir Starmer
@Keir_Starmer
I'm delighted that Alaa Abd El-Fattah is back in the UK and has been reunited with his loved ones, who must be feeling profound relief.
I want to pay tribute to Alaa's family, and to all those that have worked and campaigned for this moment.
Alaa's case has been a top priority for my government since we came to office. I'm grateful to President Sisi for his decision to grant the pardon.
Two points that are striking about this. First is that the coordinated tweeting from the Cabinet indicate they thought this was a big win (something numerous Tory governments had tried and failed etc). Second is the line to President Sisi (also in all of Cabinet ministers' statements) - which was clearly part of the deal for his release. So not without spending political and diplomatic capital.
Then people started looking at what El Fattah has posted/said. He has since explained some of his tweets. I think the homophobic one ("because no medicine can reverse god's will. he should subject his anger at good for creating those dirty homosexual.") and Holocaust denial ones ("yes and there was no genocide against jes by the naxis after all many jews are left") were genuinely sarcastic and have been taken out of context.
I don't fully buy that excuse on the others, for example "yes, I consider killing any colonialists and specially zionists heroic, we need to kill more of them" (in discussion on the Munich Olympics), "dear zionits please don't ever talk to me, I'm a violent person who advocated the killing of all zionists including civilians, so fuck of". Plus, from what I understand all his posts on the "British" including the helpful explanation "dogs and monkeys", posts about white people he says are because he is "a racist" and other stuff like that ("unfortunately the Iranian nuclear project isn't dedicated to the extermination of the white man; Bin Laden's odds are higher").
The FCDO have said they find his past tweets "abhorrent". He has apologised for any hurt caused and the Home Office have said they find his apology "fulsom". But this is obviously causing a bit of a row - not least because of how hard the government comms went in on this (as I say, they clearly viewed it as a win). I think the press that supported his campaign are also strugglinga little bit - for the first day or so on the BBC you wouldn't know this bit of the story.
I found this from Alician Kearns most revealing (my bold) of a lot of what went on here. She's a Tory MP and former Chair of the Foreign Affairs Select Committee (now shadow Home Office minister):
QuoteAlicia Kearns MP
@aliciakearns
Those of us who campaigned for Alaa Abd El-Fattah's protection and release as a British citizen plainly were not aware of his grotesque tweets, and at no point had anyone raised them with me until yesterday. I trusted the process to give Alaa citizenship, and then supported the campaign for his release. I feel deeply let down, and frankly betrayed, having lent my support to his cause which I now regret.
It is wholly improper for British citizens to be detained without due process by foreign states; however Alaa must unequivocally apologise and make clear he now wholly rejects the hatred and anti-semitism he expressed which is so wholly incompatible with British values.
I will continue to raise awareness of the plight of British citizens arbitrarily detained abroad and work to get them home, be it Jimmy Lai in Hong Kong, Jatgar Singh Johal in India, or Craig and Lindsay Foreman detained in Iran.
(Not sure she should feel betrayed and let down for not doing any DD on the campaigns she's supporting.)
When Starmer raised El Fattah's case at PMQ's with Sunak he described him as someone who was in prison for sending a tweet. So the bit I find quite (grimly lauch or cry) funny in a way is that just six days ago El Fattah tweeted his support for Palestine Action who are, of course, a proscribed terrorist organisation. From my understanding that tweet is illegal. If he repeats that in this county which, as an activist wouldn't be a surprise, he may end up getting arrested by the British state for sending a tweet. I believe for support of a proscribed terrorist organisation and as a dual citizen he could be stripped of his British citizenship - and then deported to Egypt
I think it's an interesting case because there's lots going on that I think are revealing in different ways.
#7
Off the Record / Re: TV/Movies Megathread
Last post by celedhring - Today at 01:10:15 PMQuote from: Tamas on Today at 12:24:06 PMAbs I accept Celed's background info but I would be interested just what takes 5x as much time to shoot a couple of characters at a time talking, then it took to shot more action-heavy seasons, apart from there being more abundance of money to play with.
Well, it's all about more locations and camera setups really. Both add significantly to production time. BB might have had more action, but Pluribus is way more visually ellaborate and is more geographically expansive.
And you probably could shot essentially the same story with less, but it's a flagship show and that demands a premium (and Gilligan is surely happy to play with a big budget and ample production time - honestly, those quick TV production schedules are grueling).
Damn, writing down BB makes me realize that I do miss him around here.
#8
Off the Record / Re: Brexit and the waning days...
Last post by Razgovory - Today at 12:46:58 PMQuote from: Tamas on Today at 09:39:00 AMRe. This Egyptian opposition figure, it is a bit funny when every once in a while it is exposed that the level of acceptable anti-semitism is REALLY low in (Western) Europe compared to the rest of the world. I remember that lady in the US who really got under Trump's skin running into this a few years ago, tweeting stuff normal around Somali tables during family dinners.
Quote from: Josquius on Today at 09:58:50 AMIts also funny to see all the outrage and demands for him to be barred from the country based on saying stupid shit 12 years ago.
People who actively in the here and now call for direct murder?... No no that's different. That's fine.
Who ware we talking about here?
#9
Gaming HQ / Re: What are you playing? (Red...
Last post by Baron von Schtinkenbutt - Today at 12:43:31 PMApparently I only played 13 games this year. I tend to hyper-focus on a single game for various periods, plus my daily World of Warships. I guess there's a cutoff, because I started revisiting Endless Space 2 a couple weeks ago, but it isn't there.
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#10
Off the Record / Re: TV/Movies Megathread
Last post by Tamas - Today at 12:24:06 PMQuote from: crazy canuck on Today at 11:23:53 AMQuote from: Tamas on Today at 09:35:59 AMQuote from: celedhring on Today at 09:28:19 AMQuote from: Tamas on Today at 08:47:38 AMI have just learned it is going to be 2-3 years before Pluribus Season 2. That is ridiculous, I would not have bothered watching season 1 knowing this. What the hell.
That's pretty standard for a high budget show nowadays. These things take time to prepare, shoot, and post. Looking it up, the first season had 7 months of shooting.
Better Call Saul already had 2-year gaps in the later seasons (granted, Covid interfered).
As the reddit thread put it, the same time it will take to get 18 episodes of this, they made 65 Breaking Bad episodes.
The beautiful shots in South America probably had the same budget of the combined budget for many of those BB episodes.
And by the way, when you hear a Gen X type talking about how entitled the youngins are these days - this is what we have in mind- such a hardship to have to wait a bit to see another amazing production. There there.
I am flattered you keep thinking of me as a young kid but I am two weeks from turning 46.
Abs I accept Celed's background info but I would be interested just what takes 5x as much time to shoot a couple of characters at a time talking, then it took to shot more action-heavy seasons, apart from there being more abundance of money to play with.