French police going Erdogan over al-niqab?

[Tamas]

That does not apply.

In the islam those women are living under, their personal freedom is restricted. Voluntarily or not. That cannot be compatible with a society build on personal freedom.

[viper37]

What's a bobo?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bobos_in_Paradise
bourgeois-bohemian.  Caviar left.  Leftist elitists.

Law against wearing a veil = bad idea. Not that this is a good reason for rioting.

Good idea.  All democraties should have laws against dissimulating your face in public place.

[sbr]

That does not apply.

In the islam those women are living under, their personal freedom is restricted. Voluntarily or not. That cannot be compatible with a society build on personal freedom.

So you restrict their freedom even more.

For their own good of course.

[derspiess]

And luckily for them, there are countries which not only legalize those veils but makes them mandatory. So they can always relocate to a society which is not in total opposition to their values.

No shit.

[merithyn]

If the women cant leave their city homes it means their husband must do all the chores. No way a north african islamotard will live with that. The veils will disappear, and the women will like it. It will take years, or more likely, decades, but it will work. It only takes resolve.

And luckily for them, there are countries which not only legalize those veils but makes them mandatory. So they can always relocate to a society which is not in total opposition to their values.

Given that women aren't usually allowed to drive in this type of community, it's not uncommon for men to run all errands, or to hire someone to do it for them.

I think you're wrong. I don't believe that this will help anyone. I applaud the sentiment, but can't see it doing anything more than bringing conservative Muslims closer together and more dogmatic in their beliefs. It's what happens in an "us vs them" situation.

Personally, I think just allowing people to do what they want while they interact with others doing what they want will bring about a faster change. Kids growing up in a community where they can see everyone's faces but their mothers' will start to question. Kids growing up under house arrest, on the other hand, won't have the opportunity to do so.

[derspiess]

What's a bobo?

Bourgeois bohemian.

And apparently that offends Tim

[derspiess]

Given that women aren't usually allowed to drive in this type of community, it's not uncommon for men to run all errands, or to hire someone to do it for them.

[merithyn]

That does not apply.

In the islam those women are living under, their personal freedom is restricted. Voluntarily or not. That cannot be compatible with a society build on personal freedom.

That's ridiculous. Of course it can be. People should have the right to decide for themselves how they want to live. That's what personal freedom is. Holding these women hostage to their beliefs isn't going to suddenly make them want more freedoms. Especially when so many of those women believe that by wearing the niqab they're freer than their counterparts since they don't have to be a slave to their looks.

[Tamas]

If the women cant leave their city homes it means their husband must do all the chores. No way a north african islamotard will live with that. The veils will disappear, and the women will like it. It will take years, or more likely, decades, but it will work. It only takes resolve.

And luckily for them, there are countries which not only legalize those veils but makes them mandatory. So they can always relocate to a society which is not in total opposition to their values.

Given that women aren't usually allowed to drive in this type of community, it's not uncommon for men to run all errands, or to hire someone to do it for them.

I think you're wrong. I don't believe that this will help anyone. I applaud the sentiment, but can't see it doing anything more than bringing conservative Muslims closer together and more dogmatic in their beliefs. It's what happens in an "us vs them" situation.

Personally, I think just allowing people to do what they want while they interact with others doing what they want will bring about a faster change. Kids growing up in a community where they can see everyone's faces but their mothers' will start to question. Kids growing up under house arrest, on the other hand, won't have the opportunity to do so.

you may be right.


But again: what the veil accomplishes and symbolizes in direct opposition of the values on which French and European society is built upon. To allow it is to deny the basic values on which our rights and responsibilities are based on.

[merithyn]

Given that women aren't usually allowed to drive in this type of community, it's not uncommon for men to run all errands, or to hire someone to do it for them.

Running errands != chores. And most of the time, they hire teenaged boys to do it for them, anyway.

[Valmy]

And luckily for them, there are countries which not only legalize those veils but makes them mandatory. So they can always relocate to a society which is not in total opposition to their values.

Um I thought the idea here is they are oppressed.  That seems a weird response.

[Valmy]

But again: what the veil accomplishes and symbolizes in direct opposition of the values on which French and European society is built upon. To allow it is to deny the basic values on which our rights and responsibilities are based on.

I am not disagreeing with this.  You do not move to France because you want to live in pious religious conservative society.  I am just questioning the means, they strike me as victimizing the victims rather than the perpetrators.

[derspiess]

Given that women aren't usually allowed to drive in this type of community, it's not uncommon for men to run all errands, or to hire someone to do it for them.

Running errands != chores. And most of the time, they hire teenaged boys to do it for them, anyway.

Who said anything about chores?  I'm just questioning the need to drive in order to get errands done.  From what I hear, public transport is used quite a lot in Europe.

Oh, and, uh... MEN DRIVE

[Duque de Bragança]

What's a bobo?

Bohemian Bourgeois, living in very secluded areas and preaching from safety.
Frequently seen on Lemonde.fr a centrist newspaper sometimes centre-left, sometimes centre-right.

Law against wearing a veil = bad idea. Not that this is a good reason for rioting.

Not a law against "a veil", it's a law against ID-PREVENTING clothing or equipment such as niqabs (the muslim veil chador/hijab is actually not banned unlike the salafist niqab). The police can ask for IDs and how are they supposed to check who's on the picture if the face is covered?

[Tamas]

And luckily for them, there are countries which not only legalize those veils but makes them mandatory. So they can always relocate to a society which is not in total opposition to their values.

Um I thought the idea here is they are oppressed.  That seems a weird response.

I meant the ones which are doing it on their own accord.  

Altough the distinction between those must be blurry of course, so I take that back.


Thing is, you guys may not realize, but we already have a lot of laws which are both compatible with a liberal society AND restrict citizens on the basis of cultural principles.
Underage sex, slavery, inentured servitude, etc.