French police going Erdogan over al-niqab?

[Viking]

What's a bobo?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bobos_in_Paradise
bourgeois-bohemian.  Caviar left.  Leftist elitists.

Law against wearing a veil = bad idea. Not that this is a good reason for rioting.

Good idea.  All democraties should have laws against dissimulating your face in public place.

is a nimby bobo a bonobo?

[merithyn]

you may be right.


But again: what the veil accomplishes and symbolizes in direct opposition of the values on which French and European society is built upon. To allow it is to deny the basic values on which our rights and responsibilities are based on.

Which "basic values on which our rights and responsibilities are based on" are we talking about here? Was that the foundation of the oppression of women's rights that the Catholic church held for a thousand years and then some? Or the idea that women are equal so long as they're paid less than men, don't gain weight, and make a sandwich when asked like the modern ideas?

You're spouting bullshit to justify something you don't agree with. The beauty of a free society is that we don't all have to agree with one another. We simply have to be able to live with one another. And quite frankly, I think the heavy-handed laws that the French have put into place is going to do a lot more harm than good to those very values that you claim to hold so dear.

[Tamas]

you may be right.


But again: what the veil accomplishes and symbolizes in direct opposition of the values on which French and European society is built upon. To allow it is to deny the basic values on which our rights and responsibilities are based on.

Which "basic values on which our rights and responsibilities are based on" are we talking about here? Was that the foundation of the oppression of women's rights that the Catholic church held for a thousand years and then some? Or the idea that women are equal so long as they're paid less than men, don't gain weight, and make a sandwich when asked like the modern ideas?

You're spouting bullshit to justify something you don't agree with. The beauty of a free society is that we don't all have to agree with one another. We simply have to be able to live with one another. And quite frankly, I think the heavy-handed laws that the French have put into place is going to do a lot more harm than good to those very values that you claim to hold so dear.

[merithyn]

Not a law against "a veil", it's a law against ID-PREVENTING clothing or equipment such as niqabs (the muslim veil chador/hijab is actually not banned unlike the salafist niqab). The police can ask for IDs and how are they supposed to check who's on the picture if the face is covered?

I must be out of date on this, then. I was under the impression that France outlawed the veil, as well. Or is that only in schools/courts/etc.?

[derspiess]

There is a muslim couple who have a kid in my kids' pre-school.  They usually show up to pick her up about the time I pick up my kids.  Woman is covered from head to toe-- you can't see her face.  I feel bad for her, especially when her lazy, comfortably-dressed husband just sits in the nice air-conditioned car on a hot day and makes her get out in the sun, wearing all black, to get their daughter.  And apparently you never fully get used to wearing those things-- I've seen her bump into corners and fumble with trying to open doors.

I've said hi to her but I'm afraid I'd violate some arcane religious law by engaging in any sort of conversation.

[merithyn]

You're trying to argue that the subjectification of women goes against the very foundation of French and European beliefs. I cry bullshit. It is the very foundation of those beliefs. Things have changed, thankfully, but the santimonious "we love our womenz!" is crap, and this law is just an excuse to show dislike for a culture that you don't approve of.

[Tamas]

That said, I readily admit that I am unable to be objective in this.

Maybe because I only occasionally venture into western Europe and I haven't gotten used to this, but every time I saw a jerk arab guy in shorts and T shirt and his women covered completely in heavy black clothing... That needs to stop.


And saying its the personal choice of the woman is BS. She cannot decide not to wear it, unless she is ready to flee and break all contacts with her family.

We are happy to offer legal protection against domestic violence, rightly so, but  decide to leave these women alone?

[Tamas]

You're trying to argue that the subjectification of women goes against the very foundation of French and European beliefs. I cry bullshit. It is the very foundation of those beliefs. Things have changed, thankfully, but the santimonious "we love our womenz!" is crap, and this law is just an excuse to show dislike for a culture that you don't approve of.

And I think you are missing the point. You are mixing in minor (BUT STILL VALID!) issues of modern western women. Yes they are minor compared to the stone age shit done to these women married to islamotards.

[Malthus]

That does not apply.

In the islam those women are living under, their personal freedom is restricted. Voluntarily or not. That cannot be compatible with a society build on personal freedom.

Yes it can.

Many are oppressed by their culture in various ways - generally, the more conservative the culture, the greater the degree of oppression, particularly for women. This isn't something limited to Muslims, nor are they unique. This oppression, unfortunately, tends to come from within - that is, the person oppressed internalises the oppression. It may well be enforced by others, but such enforcement can be dealt with - internalized oppression cannot. Or should not.

Civil society recognizes - or should recognize - that there are limits to what can and should be done to free people from themselves, to prevent us from living "... under omnipotent moral busybodies ..." who wish to free us from our self-victimization by imposing their rules upon us.  Arrest some guy forcing his wife, sister or daughter to wear a veil = good. Arrest the woman for wearing a veil = bad.

[merithyn]

That said, I readily admit that I am unable to be objective in this.

Maybe because I only occasionally venture into western Europe and I haven't gotten used to this, but every time I saw a jerk arab guy in shorts and T shirt and his women covered completely in heavy black clothing... That needs to stop.


And saying its the personal choice of the woman is BS. She cannot decide not to wear it, unless she is ready to flee and break all contacts with her family.

We are happy to offer legal protection against domestic violence, rightly so, but  decide to leave these women alone?

We don't force women in abusive relationships to leave their spouses, either. It sucks, but there it is.

[Tamas]

Ok fine, consider me partly convinced.


Still, I am interested to see how the French experiment plays out, so I hope they continue.

[Duque de Bragança]

Not a law against "a veil", it's a law against ID-PREVENTING clothing or equipment such as niqabs (the muslim veil chador/hijab is actually not banned unlike the salafist niqab). The police can ask for IDs and how are they supposed to check who's on the picture if the face is covered?

I must be out of date on this, then. I was under the impression that France outlawed the veil, as well. Or is that only in schools/courts/etc.?

That's another, earlier law from 2004 following trouble starting in the '80s.
Only for minors and teachers if at state schools. Not universities.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/French_law_on_secularity_and_conspicuous_religious_symbols_in_schools

[Viking]

That said, I readily admit that I am unable to be objective in this.

Maybe because I only occasionally venture into western Europe and I haven't gotten used to this, but every time I saw a jerk arab guy in shorts and T shirt and his women covered completely in heavy black clothing... That needs to stop.


And saying its the personal choice of the woman is BS. She cannot decide not to wear it, unless she is ready to flee and break all contacts with her family.

We are happy to offer legal protection against domestic violence, rightly so, but  decide to leave these women alone?

We don't force women in abusive relationships to leave their spouses, either. It sucks, but there it is.

We do take children being abused by their parents away from their parents. We also arrest husbands that beat their wives.

[merithyn]

And I think you are missing the point. You are mixing in minor (BUT STILL VALID!) issues of modern western women. Yes they are minor compared to the stone age shit done to these women married to islamotards.

I'm not missing the point at all. You're arguing that women wearing a niqab flies in the face of the very foundation of European freedom. I say that the foundation of freedom was built on religiously imposed women's subjugation. That in many cases, that same subjugation continues (see: Morman, conservative Christians, conservative Catholics, etc.). There are no laws, to my knowledge, that require that women wear pants (something forbidden in some religions), that women not wear hair caps, etc.

I believe that this is very much a case of "THINK OF THE WOMENZ!!!111" as an excuse to outlaw that which the majority don't understand and/or agree with. It's a bullying tactic to force assimiliation.

[Malthus]

Not a law against "a veil", it's a law against ID-PREVENTING clothing or equipment such as niqabs (the muslim veil chador/hijab is actually not banned unlike the salafist niqab). The police can ask for IDs and how are they supposed to check who's on the picture if the face is covered?

I'm just going by the article you posted, which claimed that the law "... bans covering one's face in public".

Do the police generally ask people for IDs when they are walking down the street? That's never happened to me. Also, in Canada, for four months of the year my face is covered when I'm walking down the street in public - with a scarf or balaclava; only my eyes are showing. That tends to happen when it's -25 degrees out. Yet Canadian civil society chugs along regardless.