French police going Erdogan over al-niqab?

[Malthus]

What's a bobo?

Law against wearing a veil = bad idea. Not that this is a good reason for rioting.

[Tamas]

What's a bobo?

Law against wearing a veil = bad idea. Not that this is a good reason for rioting.

You are wrong, because in this case, they are not banning a veil so a veil can be banned. They are banning a veil which is in both practice and theory are to enact and  promote the enslavement of women.

[Valmy]

You are wrong, because in this case, they are not banning a veil so a veil can be banned. They are banning a veil which is in both practice and theory are to enact and  promote the enslavement of women.

Well I am not in law enforcement over there but it strikes me that there might be less heavy handed ways to combat the oppression of women than this.  Criminalizing them strikes me as an odd answer.  Now I understand France has its laity thing and in general lots of religious symbols are banned in certain public spaces but just walking around on the street seems a bit over the top.

[Malthus]

What's a bobo?

Law against wearing a veil = bad idea. Not that this is a good reason for rioting.

You are wrong, because in this case, they are not banning a veil so a veil can be banned. They are banning a veil which is in both practice and theory are to enact and  promote the enslavement of women.

Yet according the the article, it is the woman wearing the thing that gets a fine or gets sent for re-education.

Punishing someone for symbolic reasons that are ultimately asserted to be for their own good = bad idea. Worse, where the punishment is inflicted over a minority symbol of faith.

It may well be that the motives are truly benign and paternalistic, but it is easy to see that the subjects of this action are far more likely to read it as a majority's attempt to denigrate the minority. Anyone from that minority who had pride in their heritage is likely going to view this as an outrage, no matter what they happen to think about the status of women.

This is the exact reason why the state should not be in the business of using criminal sanctions to make "symbolic" points.

[Grallon]

Keep allowing immigrants from sub standard cultures in and you will keep getting this endless headache of trying to assimilate what can't be assimilated...  And it can't be assimilated because it's antithetic to everything the host society is.  This isn't rocket science!




G.

[Tamas]

Here is the deal guys: what the veil symbolizes, and WHAT IT ACHIEVES, is in DIRECT OPPOSITION to the BASIC VALUES of France, and the EU in general.

You cannot tolerate people held as non-humans, while also promote civil liberties, ban slavery and such.

Yes, punishing the one wearing it is not the perfect solution, but the best realistically available. And it WILL have a positive effect on the long term.

[derspiess]

Law against wearing a veil = bad idea.

Meh, it's their country.  I'd oppose such a law here but I want to see how it plays out over in France.

[Valmy]

Yes, punishing the one wearing it is not the perfect solution, but the best realistically available.

It is an incredibly unjust solution if you think they are being forced to do so, they basically get to be victimized twice.   Now I can see having a dress code for girls at schools or women at certain public spaces like courthouses whatever but just walking down the street seems a bit problematic.  Because then you cannot just say 'no entry unless you remove the head covering' then you basically have to pull out the sticks the state has available.

[Malthus]

Here is the deal guys: what the veil symbolizes, and WHAT IT ACHIEVES, is in DIRECT OPPOSITION to the BASIC VALUES of France, and the EU in general.

You cannot tolerate people held as non-humans, while also promote civil liberties, ban slavery and such.

Yes, punishing the one wearing it is not the perfect solution, but the best realistically available. And it WILL have a positive effect on the long term.

Perhaps it is best to ask the person wearing the thing whether it means they are a non-human or a slave.

So far, the "positive effect" appears to be to increase the alienation of the Muslim community. I suggest that the North American approach has a better track record to date in terms of "effect".

That is quite aside from the arument over basic principles - and again, I suggest that the principle of "civil liberties' is better advanced by not infringing them, than by infringing them in the name of some theoretical "greater good".

[merithyn]

Here is the deal guys: what the veil symbolizes, and WHAT IT ACHIEVES, is in DIRECT OPPOSITION to the BASIC VALUES of France, and the EU in general.

You cannot tolerate people held as non-humans, while also promote civil liberties, ban slavery and such.

Yes, punishing the one wearing it is not the perfect solution, but the best realistically available. And it WILL have a positive effect on the long term.

I agree with the above, except the bolded part. My concern is that rather than changing the behaviors of those involved, it's instead creating a situation where these women are now not allowed to leave their homes at all. Basically, they can't leave the house without a veil, but they can't wear a veil outside the house. Ergo, they can't leave the house.

In essence, the French have now put these women under house arrest due to their religious beliefs. I'm not sure how, in the long- or short-term, that's going to help anyone.

[PDH]

When someone uses a lot of all caps it makes their argument silly.

[Admiral Yi]

What's a bobo?

Bourgeois bohemian.

[Malthus]

When someone uses a lot of all caps it makes their argument silly.

Apparently, someone told the US Navy. 

http://www.cnn.com/2013/06/13/us/navy-all-caps/?hpt=hp_t2

[Tamas]

Here is the deal guys: what the veil symbolizes, and WHAT IT ACHIEVES, is in DIRECT OPPOSITION to the BASIC VALUES of France, and the EU in general.

You cannot tolerate people held as non-humans, while also promote civil liberties, ban slavery and such.

Yes, punishing the one wearing it is not the perfect solution, but the best realistically available. And it WILL have a positive effect on the long term.

I agree with the above, except the bolded part. My concern is that rather than changing the behaviors of those involved, it's instead creating a situation where these women are now not allowed to leave their homes at all. Basically, they can't leave the house without a veil, but they can't wear a veil outside the house. Ergo, they can't leave the house.

In essence, the French have now put these women under house arrest due to their religious beliefs. I'm not sure how, in the long- or short-term, that's going to help anyone.

If the women cant leave their city homes it means their husband must do all the chores. No way a north african islamotard will live with that. The veils will disappear, and the women will like it. It will take years, or more likely, decades, but it will work. It only takes resolve.

And luckily for them, there are countries which not only legalize those veils but makes them mandatory. So they can always relocate to a society which is not in total opposition to their values.

[Malthus]

Here is the deal guys: what the veil symbolizes, and WHAT IT ACHIEVES, is in DIRECT OPPOSITION to the BASIC VALUES of France, and the EU in general.

You cannot tolerate people held as non-humans, while also promote civil liberties, ban slavery and such.

Yes, punishing the one wearing it is not the perfect solution, but the best realistically available. And it WILL have a positive effect on the long term.

I agree with the above, except the bolded part. My concern is that rather than changing the behaviors of those involved, it's instead creating a situation where these women are now not allowed to leave their homes at all. Basically, they can't leave the house without a veil, but they can't wear a veil outside the house. Ergo, they can't leave the house.

In essence, the French have now put these women under house arrest due to their religious beliefs. I'm not sure how, in the long- or short-term, that's going to help anyone.

If the women cant leave their city homes it means their husband must do all the chores. No way a north african islamotard will live with that. The veils will disappear, and the women will like it. It will take years, or more likely, decades, but it will work. It only takes resolve.

And luckily for them, there are countries which not only legalize those veils but makes them mandatory. So they can always relocate to a society which is not in total opposition to their values.

"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience."