Sci-fi/Fantasy recommendations

[Gups]

It's the same old story. Crap writing, a plot so implausible it is impossible to suspend disbelief and characters with as much depth as a paddling pool.

I'm not going to disagree with 1 and 3, but I'd be quite interested as to what particularly you found so implausible about the plot given the genre of the novel.

As I say I've got a third of the way through before chucking it. The idea that you attempt you start a civil war/uprising under the nose of a super-powerful, immortal ruler and you tell thousands of people that you are going to do it was my main objection.

[crazy canuck]

On the other hand, literary writers writing Science Fiction may decry the label, but they are still considered to be writing science fiction - witness my aunt.

Just finished her latest.  Enjoyed it greatly. 

[Malthus]

The problem is that the great "literary" fantasy writers aren't considered "fantasy", while the great "literary" historical and science-fiction writers are still considered to write historical and science-fiction.

There are plenty of entertaining fantasy writers with no literary ambition - guys like Fritz Leiber.

But that's because the works aren't really fantasy works - they simply contain some element of magic or otherwordlyness. I'm not trying to be semantic. The Master & Margerita is a political literary work using magical elements as metaphors.

But anyway, that's not really my point. It's that the average standard of fantasy works is so utterly bereft of any quality. I've recently read a couple of genre westerns - True Grit, the Searchers and Lonesome Dove and a few fantasy books - the Sanderson mistborn, the first Feist one and Tigana by Kay. All were selected on the same basis - reading reviews on Amazon and seeing what was highly recommended. The westerns are by no means works of great literature but they have interesting characters, they are well-placed and plotted and the writing is solid, at the very least. The fantasy is just pap. The authors don't even try to write well (Kay is an exception, although he doesn't succeed). The characters are cliched, predictable and one-dimensional.

That's just a definitional game, though. When my aunt is writing about distopian futures, are they social-political literary works or are they science-fiction? Whatever she has to say on the subject, most would say the latter - ditto with Usula Leguin - because making a point has always been a part of science-fiction, from the very beginning. If they are 'allowed' as science-fiction, and yet The Master and Margarita is not 'allowed' as fantasy, that just proves my point.

I would argue that making a point through fantasy has always been a part of fantasy, from the beginning as well. What has changed, is the notion that fantasy really means stuff set on a world with magic in it that has no literary, social or political point. Much of which is derivative of Tolkien. That limits the genre to stuff more likely to be crap. Mind you, I'd still not conclude it's all crap on a random sample size of 3. 

[Razgovory]

Have to agree with Malthus here.  We also "allow" a lot of things that are fantasy to get by as some other genre.  For instance, horror.  A lot of horror is fantasy.  A weird type of fantasy, but involve magic and monsters.  Lots and lots of novels and stories get by with some sort of magic and avoid get tossed in the Fantasy ghetto.

[Agelastus]

It's the same old story. Crap writing, a plot so implausible it is impossible to suspend disbelief and characters with as much depth as a paddling pool.

I'm not going to disagree with 1 and 3, but I'd be quite interested as to what particularly you found so implausible about the plot given the genre of the novel.

As I say I've got a third of the way through before chucking it. The idea that you attempt you start a civil war/uprising under the nose of a super-powerful, immortal ruler and you tell thousands of people that you are going to do it was my main objection.

It's been too long since I've read it, and I think I was going through a speed-reading era as well, but I seem to recall that "telling thousands of people" was part of the plan. If I'm correct about which character you're referring to, his scheme does not include his survival as a part of it.

I don't know if I can convince you to restart it, but the series itself has a surprisingly satisfying ending, and as you discover more and more about the world and why it's the way it is the more well constructed it (and it's background) seems.

[grumbler]

I agree with you, Gups, and not based on a small sample size, either.  I think too many aspiring authors decide to write fantasy because they think that they can get away with anything writing fantasy, because "hey, it's a fantasy, after all."  Most of them seem to believe that readers read fantasy because they are attracted to the most fantastical of fantasies, or the most familiar of stories.  Few bother with character development or even decent plots.  Sometimes writers succeed (Alfred Bester's The Stars My Destination, which is a work of fantasy despite its SF setting) doesn't have a plausible story nor any developed characters, but is a great read simply because of the fantastical nature of its world and people.), but most often we end up with a re-tread of the Lord of the Rings or a Conan ripoff.

I think the entry price for SF or even general literature is higher than it is for fantasy, because the former have to have some plausible and believable connection to the real world.  You won't find 16-year-old kids who can't write getting book contracts in any genre besides fantasy.

[garbon]

I think the entry price for SF or even general literature is higher than it is for fantasy, because the former have to have some plausible and believable connection to the real world.  You won't find 16-year-old kids who can't write getting book contracts in any genre besides fantasy.

I don't think that's true at all. You clearly haven't had the misfortune of reading Candace Bushnell and ilk or Kathy Reichs...both of which had their works also turned to into tv/movie productions.

Not to mention things like 50 shades of grey...dan brown...

[Gups]

That's just a definitional game, though. When my aunt is writing about distopian futures, are they social-political literary works or are they science-fiction? Whatever she has to say on the subject, most would say the latter - ditto with Usula Leguin - because making a point has always been a part of science-fiction, from the very beginning. If they are 'allowed' as science-fiction, and yet The Master and Margarita is not 'allowed' as fantasy, that just proves my point.

Your aunt's books are both. In fact she isn't all that good at the sci-fi element, but we don't mind that too much because whe is witty, her writing is great and the points she is making are interesting.

M&M has fantasticla elements, but it's set in the real world not a fantasy one. Ditto Night Circus, Thousand Years, Midnight's Children etc. The Pullman trilogy and other steampunkie type books are somehwere in the middle.

I guess I'm talking about high fantasy genre  books. If I'm reading literary fiction, it's neither here nor there to be if there's a bit of fantasy in it.

I would argue that making a point through fantasy has always been a part of fantasy, from the beginning as well. What has changed, is the notion that fantasy really means stuff set on a world with magic in it that has no literary, social or political point. Much of which is derivative of Tolkien. That limits the genre to stuff more likely to be crap.

I'd argue it's derivative of Tolkien because the writers are interested only in world-building and magic systems and not on characters, plot and pacing.

Mind you, I'd still not conclude it's all crap on a random sample size of 3.

Well what kind of an idiot would? That would be like assuming that because you referto your aunt's sci-fi works as an example, you've only read three sci-fi works. Even if you've reference a bunch more elsewhere.

[grumbler]

I think the entry price for SF or even general literature is higher than it is for fantasy, because the former have to have some plausible and believable connection to the real world.  You won't find 16-year-old kids who can't write getting book contracts in any genre besides fantasy.

I don't think that's true at all. You clearly haven't had the misfortune of reading Candace Bushnell and ilk or Kathy Reichs...both of which had their works also turned to into tv/movie productions.

Not to mention things like 50 shades of grey...dan brown...

You clearly haven't had the misfortune of reading something by Terry Goodkind or Robert Newcomb.  Both make Dan Brown look like Hemingway.  So do Terry Brooks, anyone who wrote any of the D&D books, David Drake, etc, etc, many of whom have had their works turned into tv/movie productions as well.

[Gups]

It's been too long since I've read it, and I think I was going through a speed-reading era as well, but I seem to recall that "telling thousands of people" was part of the plan. If I'm correct about which character you're referring to, his scheme does not include his survival as a part of it.

I don't know if I can convince you to restart it, but the series itself has a surprisingly satisfying ending, and as you discover more and more about the world and why it's the way it is the more well constructed it (and it's background) seems.

Nope. If I find myself sneering and tutting at a book, it's time to move on! 

I've downloaded Vanity Fair as replacement light reading.

[Malthus]

I agree with you, Gups, and not based on a small sample size, either.  I think too many aspiring authors decide to write fantasy because they think that they can get away with anything writing fantasy, because "hey, it's a fantasy, after all."  Most of them seem to believe that readers read fantasy because they are attracted to the most fantastical of fantasies, or the most familiar of stories.  Few bother with character development or even decent plots.  Sometimes writers succeed (Alfred Bester's The Stars My Destination, which is a work of fantasy despite its SF setting) doesn't have a plausible story nor any developed characters, but is a great read simply because of the fantastical nature of its world and people.), but most often we end up with a re-tread of the Lord of the Rings or a Conan ripoff.

I think the entry price for SF or even general literature is higher than it is for fantasy, because the former have to have some plausible and believable connection to the real world.  You won't find 16-year-old kids who can't write getting book contracts in any genre besides fantasy.

That's true for "hard" science-fiction but it is most certainly NOT true for science-fiction in general - much of which is, in fact, functionally indistingusihable from fantasy.

To provide but one example, look at Star Wars. Aside from being set in space with high tech, it might as well be fantasy. It makes no pretentions at having any plausible and believable connection to the real world.

[grumbler]

That's true for "hard" science-fiction but it is most certainly NOT true for science-fiction in general - much of which is, in fact, functionally indistingusihable from fantasy. 

Much of what some called Sf is, in fact, fantasy.

To provide but one example, look at Star Wars. Aside from being set in space with high tech, it might as well be fantasy. It makes no pretentions at having any plausible and believable connection to the real world.

Agree.  Star Wars is fantasy, not SF.

[Malthus]

That's true for "hard" science-fiction but it is most certainly NOT true for science-fiction in general - much of which is, in fact, functionally indistingusihable from fantasy. 

Much of what some called Sf is, in fact, fantasy.

To provide but one example, look at Star Wars. Aside from being set in space with high tech, it might as well be fantasy. It makes no pretentions at having any plausible and believable connection to the real world.

Agree.  Star Wars is fantasy, not SF.

Is it science fiction that only a true Scotsman could love? 

[Siege]

I'm reading the Dunk and Egg stories.
Pretty cool.

[grumbler]

Is it science fiction that only a true Scotsman could love? 

Since you are the one who made the argument, ask yourself the question!