Sci-fi/Fantasy recommendations

[Gups]

Read a third of the first Mistborn novel by Sanderson and have ditched it.

It's the same old story. Crap writing, a plot so implausible it is impossible to suspend disbelief and characters with as much depth as a paddling pool.


I think I'm done with fantasy. I like teh idea but with only a very few exceptions the books are aimed at a readership which is so undiscriminating that the writers can just ring it in.

It's the same with any other type of "genre" fiction. There are a few real innovators, a few who have serious writing chops, and a whole lot of writers capitalizing on the fact that every genre has a built-in audience.

I dunno. The quality of fantasy fiction seems significantly lower than in other genres I read. There's a number of very good writers in sci-fi, westerns, thrillers, historical fiction, crime.

Is there really anyone in high fantasy apart from Tolkien and arguably Peake. I mean, even competent writers like Abercrombie and Martin are hard to find.

Romance and horror may be as bad - I don't read either - but I'm struggling to think of any other genres as badly served as fantasy.

[Malthus]

Read a third of the first Mistborn novel by Sanderson and have ditched it.

It's the same old story. Crap writing, a plot so implausible it is impossible to suspend disbelief and characters with as much depth as a paddling pool.


I think I'm done with fantasy. I like teh idea but with only a very few exceptions the books are aimed at a readership which is so undiscriminating that the writers can just ring it in.

It's the same with any other type of "genre" fiction. There are a few real innovators, a few who have serious writing chops, and a whole lot of writers capitalizing on the fact that every genre has a built-in audience.

I dunno. The quality of fantasy fiction seems significantly lower than in other genres I read. There's a number of very good writers in sci-fi, westerns, thrillers, historical fiction, crime.

Is there really anyone in high fantasy apart from Tolkien and arguably Peake. I mean, even competent writers like Abercrombie and Martin are hard to find.

Romance and horror may be as bad - I don't read either - but I'm struggling to think of any other genres as badly served as fantasy.

I suspect the problem with "high fantasy" is that Tolkein defines and dominates the field so completely.

There are certainly unrivaled masters who use fantastic elements in their writing, but they are not within the genre tradition of dragons, elves, etc. and so are not counted as "fantasy" - guys like, for example, Bugalikov and The Master and Margarita, or Borges or Calvino.

In fantasy, more than other genres, those writers who stray into literary territory while using elements of the fantastic are considered "not fantasy". This winnows the field. On the other hand, literary writers writing Science Fiction may decry the label, but they are still considered to be writing science fiction - witness my aunt.

[garbon]

I also don't know that such is a fair comment to make. There is also a lot of dreck in science fiction, thrillers, crime, general fiction.

[Sheilbh]

It's the same with any other type of "genre" fiction. There are a few real innovators, a few who have serious writing chops, and a whole lot of writers capitalizing on the fact that every genre has a built-in audience.

I think I agree with Gups. There's great genre writers in sci fi, crime and historical fiction and there's great 'literary' writers like Michael Chabon or Hilary Mantel who also write genre novels. Even the level of mediocre seems to be a lot higher with other genres.

But fantasy doesn't seem to have anything like that. As I said I enjoy the Game of Thrones books, but I'm not up to date, but the quality drops a lot which makes the later books more difficult going. It seems a bit like male chick lit.

Having said that I think there's great young adult fantasy writers like Rowling and Pullman. Maybe because they need to drag their readers in a bit more, rather than having an audience that's willing to put up with it if they're convinced there's a good story/world to get into.

[Sheilbh]

I also don't know that such is a fair comment to make. There is also a lot of dreck in science fiction, thrillers, crime, general fiction.

Definitely, but I'd still say there's more brilliant genre writers in those fields - like Ellroy for example or a number of sci fi writers. There's also more 'literary' writers who use those genres. And I think the average seems to be higher too.

As someone who likes the idea of fantasy I'm far more reluctant to pick up one of those books than a sci fi novel or a thriller, because normally it's worse and not only that but it's one of a series of 8 novels

[Malthus]

It's the same with any other type of "genre" fiction. There are a few real innovators, a few who have serious writing chops, and a whole lot of writers capitalizing on the fact that every genre has a built-in audience.

I think I agree with Gups. There's great genre writers in sci fi, crime and historical fiction and there's great 'literary' writers like Michael Chabon or Hilary Mantel who also write genre novels. Even the level of mediocre seems to be a lot higher with other genres.

But fantasy doesn't seem to have anything like that. As I said I enjoy the Game of Thrones books, but I'm not up to date, but the quality drops a lot which makes the later books more difficult going. It seems a bit like male chick lit.

Having said that I think there's great young adult fantasy writers like Rowling and Pullman. Maybe because they need to drag their readers in a bit more, rather than having an audience that's willing to put up with it if they're convinced there's a good story/world to get into.

The problem is that the great "literary" fantasy writers aren't considered "fantasy", while the great "literary" historical and science-fiction writers are still considered to write historical and science-fiction.

There are plenty of entertaining fantasy writers with no literary ambition - guys like Fritz Leiber.

[DontSayBanana]

Definitely, but I'd still say there's more brilliant genre writers in those fields - like Ellroy for example or a number of sci fi writers. There's also more 'literary' writers who use those genres. And I think the average seems to be higher too.

More recognized authors certainly, and those that are are recognized more in the mainstream.  When I think of mainstream fantasy authors, I think of Le Guin (who straddles the line), Anne McCaffrey (also does sci fi), Peter S. Beagle, George R. R. Martin, and the only real literary "heavyweights" are Tolkien and Lewis.

As opposed to sci fi, where you can pretty much start the list with Asimov, Clarke, and then get into the contemporary big names like Card, McCaffrey's sci fi stuff, Andre Norton, Bujold, etc., etc.

[Gups]

The problem is that the great "literary" fantasy writers aren't considered "fantasy", while the great "literary" historical and science-fiction writers are still considered to write historical and science-fiction.

There are plenty of entertaining fantasy writers with no literary ambition - guys like Fritz Leiber.

But that's because the works aren't really fantasy works - they simply contain some element of magic or otherwordlyness. I'm not trying to be semantic. The Master & Margerita is a political literary work using magical elements as metaphors.

But anyway, that's not really my point. It's that the average standard of fantasy works is so utterly bereft of any quality. I've recently read a couple of genre westerns - True Grit, the Searchers and Lonesome Dove and a few fantasy books - the Sanderson mistborn, the first Feist one and Tigana by Kay. All were selected on the same basis - reading reviews on Amazon and seeing what was highly recommended. The westerns are by no means works of great literature but they have interesting characters, they are well-placed and plotted and the writing is solid, at the very least. The fantasy is just pap. The authors don't even try to write well (Kay is an exception, although he doesn't succeed). The characters are cliched, predictable and one-dimensional.

[The Brain]

The fantasy is just pap. The authors don't even try to write well (Kay is an exception, although he doesn't succeed). The characters are cliched, predictable and one-dimensional.

Languish isn't fantasy.

[Sheilbh]

The problem is that the great "literary" fantasy writers aren't considered "fantasy", while the great "literary" historical and science-fiction writers are still considered to write historical and science-fiction.

I'm not sure though, I blame a lot of this on Latin Americans for inventing magic realism

I think what I'd identify as fantasy isn't necessarily Tolkienishness, but basically building up a world that isn't ours. There are literary examples of that - Hesse's Glass Bead Game, Jonathan Strange and Mr Norrell, I've heard really good things about the Lanark series too. A lot of other writers, especially following magic realism, write very clearly in our world with fantastical elements - all the midnight's children for example.

It doesn't seem that the problem's that fantasy's too narrow as I'd include everyone from Rowling to Tolkien and others.

There are plenty of entertaining fantasy writers with no literary ambition - guys like Fritz Leiber.

I'll add him to the list

Literary ambition doesn't bother me. I'm a sucker for thrillers, crime or historical fiction. But so far I've really enjoyed the big fantasy writers like Tolkien, or those writing for kids like Rowling or Pullman.

I think this is why Douthat's right. For people who aren't into it there's a slight problem with fantasy in that lots of it, as with any genre, isn't great and, unlike most genres, they like to tell epic stories over multiple volumes. So people like me, who like the idea, wait for someone to become as popular as Martin because then we know it's worth starting a series of seven books.

[Agelastus]

It's the same old story. Crap writing, a plot so implausible it is impossible to suspend disbelief and characters with as much depth as a paddling pool.

I'm not going to disagree with 1 and 3, but I'd be quite interested as to what particularly you found so implausible about the plot given the genre of the novel.

---

As for Feist the best books he ever wrote were his collaborations with Janny Wurts ("Daughter of the Empire", "Servant of the Empire", and "Mistress of the Empire") despite certain inconsistencies between the books that a better editor than they apparently had should have caught.

They're set in the same milieu (on Kelewan rather than Midkemia) but you don't have to have any real knowledge of the Midkemian books to enjoy them.

Admittedly, unlike you Gups, I like Feist's early "Riftwar" books (his later books, where he's supposedly developed as a writer, are much less enjoyable reads - so much so that I don't think I've touched any of his last three or four sequences.)

[garbon]

unlike most genres, they like to tell epic stories over multiple volumes. So people like me, who like the idea, wait for someone to become as popular as Martin because then we know it's worth starting a series of seven books.

I don't see how that's a problem except for the writer trying to live off their writing.  Besides, isn't the trilogy more common?

[Sheilbh]

I don't see how that's a problem except for the writer trying to live off their writing.  Besides, isn't the trilogy more common?

Yeah but I think Martin's is seven.

It's not a problem. But it means if you're a casual consumer, like me, who likes the idea I'd never pick up a fantasy novel without recommendations and checking the reviews. That's a large part of the reason I started this thread. Other genre fiction is safer.

[garbon]

Yeah but I think Martin's is seven.

Yeah but if that isn't the most common size, not sure of the relevance.

It's not a problem. But it means if you're a casual consumer, like me, who likes the idea I'd never pick up a fantasy novel without recommendations and checking the reviews. That's a large part of the reason I started this thread. Other genre fiction is safer.

I don't know. Most of the fantasy authors I read, I either picked up one of their stand-alone books* or just bought the first book in a series and if I found that good picked up other things. I don't generally by hardcover (though things are now starting to change for me with e-readers), so generally you know if the 2nd book is really going to come out if you are purchasing in paperback.

Besides, checking reviews are trivially easy these days...

*a great many when I was a teen and would by a random book for the plane.

[Darth Wagtaros]

I liked the Riftwar books early on.  Later as he (and I guess me) aged I found his newer writings harder and harder to enjoy.