Pope Francis says atheists can be good

[Barrister]

There is petitionary prayer, sure, but I think you're intentionally conflating Catholic practices with American Protestant practices where they genuinely believe prayer of that sort is supposed to be the fabric of every day life. Any problem you have, you should pray for God to solve it. Kid sick? Pray for him to get better. Boss an asshole? Pray for things to get better at work. Short on cash? Pray for money. That's honestly out of sync with how any Catholics I know operate.

Sounds like a difference in degree, not a difference of kind.

And even mainstream, or liberal, protestants believe in the power of prayer, and that God can make his will known on earth.  I think it is more the notion that you shouldn't pray for such, well, crass interventions.  Prayers to heal the sick and bring peace to the world are fine, but prayers to win the lottery... are just in bad taste.

[grumbler]

The first hit I got on Google for "Catholic Prayer" was this book from the Loyola University Press http://www.loyolapress.com/raising-our-hearts-and-minds-to-god-petition.htm

It notes that

A prayer of petition is a request to God that asks him to fulfill a need. When we share in God's saving love, we understand that through petition we can ask for God's help with every need no matter how great or small.

I don't have a horse in the "which religion is the best" contest here, and don't have a problem with people who think religious/magical thinking helps them in their lives (I have plenty of relative who are Catholics, Mormons, Methodists, Jehovah's Witnesses, etc) but I think that, if one is to engage in that debate, then one should at least provide some authority for their claims about the "inferior" religions instead of just making up straw men, Otto.

Some religions certainly seem more restrained about things like prayer, as Beeb notes for Protestants, and Otto notes for Catholics.  Some are not, I am sure.  I personally don't see any qualitative difference between the two positions.  It seems to me just a matter of faith, and that can't be argued, really.

[The Brain]

Can't the leaders of the different big religions settle this like men, in manly fisticular combat? Man against man.

[Barrister]

The first hit I got on Google for "Catholic Prayer" was this book from the Loyola University Press http://www.loyolapress.com/raising-our-hearts-and-minds-to-god-petition.htm

It notes that

A prayer of petition is a request to God that asks him to fulfill a need. When we share in God's saving love, we understand that through petition we can ask for God's help with every need no matter how great or small.

I don't have a horse in the "which religion is the best" contest here, and don't have a problem with people who think religious/magical thinking helps them in their lives (I have plenty of relative who are Catholics, Mormons, Methodists, Jehovah's Witnesses, etc) but I think that, if one is to engage in that debate, then one should at least provide some authority for their claims about the "inferior" religions instead of just making up straw men, Otto.

Some religions certainly seem more restrained about things like prayer, as Beeb notes for Protestants, and Otto notes for Catholics.  Some are not, I am sure.  I personally don't see any qualitative difference between the two positions.  It seems to me just a matter of faith, and that can't be argued, really.

I think I have to agree with grumbles. 

As much as I'd like to re-fight the 30 Years War in this thread, Otto's being mostly reasonable and not giving me enough ammunition to do so.  I don't think you can make any claim as to which denomination is "better" based on how often people pray.  Both have a wide range of opinion on the topic.

[crazy canuck]

Thus, being a Jew conveys no religious benefit whatsoever

Other than taking the normal stat holidays AND all the Jewish religious holidays nobody else gets. 

[Viking]

... and just when we atheists feared we'd be getting some of that papal lovin'

http://www.patheos.com/blogs/friendlyatheist/2013/05/24/vatican-representative-just-to-be-clear-atheists-are-still-going-to-hell/

Vatican Representative: Just to Be Clear, Atheists Are Still Going to Hell
May 24, 2013 By Hemant Mehta Leave a Comment
Yesterday, I posted about something interesting Pope Francis said in a recent homily — namely, that even atheists could be "redeemed" if they were good people:

"The Lord has redeemed all of us, all of us, with the Blood of Christ: all of us, not just Catholics. Everyone! 'Father, the atheists?' Even the atheists. Everyone! And this Blood makes us children of God of the first class! We are created children in the likeness of God and the Blood of Christ has redeemed us all! And we all have a duty to do good. And this commandment for everyone to do good, I think, is a beautiful path towards peace. If we, each doing our own part, if we do good to others, if we meet there, doing good, and we go slowly, gently, little by little, we will make that culture of encounter: we need that so much. We must meet one another doing good. 'But I don't believe, Father, I am an atheist!' But do good: we will meet one another there."

Many atheists thought it was pretty damn nice of the Pope to say that... even if the idea of being "saved" or "redeemed" thanks to Christ's death is all made up.

We all knew that sense of one-ness and actions-speak-louder-than-prayers wasn't going to last very long. As the Pope's words made their way around the world, a Vatican spokesman had to do some damage control and remind everybody that atheists, in fact, are going to hell unless they accept Jesus:


Rev. Thomas Rosica

On Thursday, the Vatican issued an "explanatory note on the meaning to 'salvation.'"
The Rev. Thomas Rosica, a Vatican spokesman, said that people who know about the Catholic church "cannot be saved" if they "refuse to enter her or remain in her."

(That's what she said.)
Okay, okay, so that's what we were expecting all along. Atheists, according to Christians, are going to hell unless we accept Christ's divinity. We already knew that. It was still an unusual and welcome gesture from the Pope to recognize that everyone, regardless of beliefs, can do good and "be saved" — at least it was a step up from what we're used to hearing.

why blowin' so hot and cold pope? first some heavenly lovin' now rejection? am I not altarboyish enough for you?

[Legbiter]

Is he talking about IRL atheists or Internet atheists? 'Cause the latter are mostly like so:

[Martinus]

Well, the clarification is consistent with Catholic doctrine and as I said in the first post, HuffPo and some people interpreted too much out of the Pope's sermon. He said atheists can be good people and that Catholics should work with atheists to do good work.

[Eddie Teach]

whereas evangelicals breed even young people that buck the trend and are straight up crazy.

My parents clearly failed, only 1 of 4 kids goes to church more than once a year.

[OttoVonBismarck]

Sounds like a difference in degree, not a difference of kind.

And even mainstream, or liberal, protestants believe in the power of prayer, and that God can make his will known on earth.  I think it is more the notion that you shouldn't pray for such, well, crass interventions.  Prayers to heal the sick and bring peace to the world are fine, but prayers to win the lottery... are just in bad taste.

It may seem that way to you, I suspect that you and grumbler, who I really don't disagree with in terms of the substance of your arguments, just maybe are not familiar with ordinary Catholic practice or ordinary fundamentalist Protestant practice. Or, in grumbler's case as an atheist he may simply not see any real difference between different forms of illogical belief.

There is a key difference between how non-fundamentalist Christians in America live their lives and how fundamentalist Christians live their lives. I'd say all non-fundamentalists (including mainline Protestants and most Catholics) believe that it's certainly possible for God to take a direct hand in human affairs but that it is not how things are ordinarily done. The overwhelming focus of our religion is much more spiritual and much less concerned with what happens day to day. We have lowered to non-existent expectations of anything other than perhaps being better individuals if we follow the decent code of ethics found in the New Testament, the ultimate rewards of faith are spiritual, not temporal.

Fundie Americans have a much more "all-encompassing" view. They think that there is no difference between the spiritual and the temporal. God is personally involved in everything that happens. I imagine any Christian be they Catholic or Pentecostal who finds themselves on an airline that's going down and has to make an emergency landing in a field is going to be praying, either for strength, for their family to be taken care of if they die, or for their lives to be spared. That's normal and to be expected. But once it's all over the reactions will be a lot different. Most Catholics and mainline Protestants, if they survive the incident, will ascribe it to whatever mechanical fault or maintenance lapse or pilot error actually lead to the incident. A fundamentalist will believe that they lived because God wanted them to remain on the earth for various reasons. If they die, their family will believe "God decided it was his time." Their is an immense amount of egoism in these thoughts, as they will have little regard or concern for the non-fundamentalists on the plane and will barely consider them as relevant in God's decision making.

If a Catholic's wife is seriously injured in a car accident, yes we will pray, but whether she lives or dies at the end of the day we're going to ascribe what happened mostly to human beings. If she lost control of her car, it was a driving error. If she lives, it was luck and the work of surgeons and modern medicine. If she dies, it was a horrible tragedy but one that God did not cause or influence. A fundie will believe if the car crash survivor was spared by God, or was taken by God. I knew an older fundie couple, the wife's brother and her sister-in-law were in visiting. Her husband had a major heart attack in the middle of the night and died. One of the first things said to the widow at the wake I was at, by another fundie, was, "Well, you just know God planned this so your brother would be there for you when this happened." A Catholic would never believe that, for one we would not believe that God caused the man to have a heart attack. Secondly, we would not believe that God somehow planned it so this would happen when her brother and his wife were in visiting just so she had ready-made emotional support the night she lost her husband.

Once you believe God is directly deciding and involved in every action in everyone's lives, a petitionary prayer is changed from something you mostly only hear about in the direst of conditions to something you think is necessary basically multiple times a day just to get through daily life. Pray for safety on your way to work, pray for wisdom before you presentation at work, pray for safety on the way back, pray that your family is safe during the night while you sleep etc. Catholics don't do that, and it may just seem a difference of degree to some, but to me it's a fundamental difference in how we look at the world and what we believe is derived from our faith.

Another major thing I see with fundies, is "broken people" who believe God basically existed and came into their lives to "save them." A lot of alcoholics and other addicts go into fundamentalism and believe God is personally seeing to their recovery. There was a famous recovering alcoholic Priest that used to go around the country giving speeches about alcoholism and recovery, and he heavily emphasized AA (with its higher power stuff) and the Catholic Church in general is pro-AA. However, by and large even that Priest was not arguing that God basically swooped down from on high and decided to save you. He taught the decision to go to AA and get sober is a human one that individuals have to make for themselves while relying on faith in God's strength to help them down the path. Again, there is just to me a fundamental difference on worldview that maybe you do not see, but being heavily exposed to fundamentalist I can't help but notice.

[Sheilbh]

Well, the clarification is consistent with Catholic doctrine and as I said in the first post, HuffPo and some people interpreted too much out of the Pope's sermon. He said atheists can be good people and that Catholics should work with atheists to do good work.

Yeah, he's not going to free wheel away from doctrine.

I also liked his line that 'in a world that talks a lot about rights it seems the only thing that has them is money' about human trafficking

[garbon]

Here's a recent book on early Islam - interesting if somewhat disjointed reading:

http://www.amazon.com/Shadow-Sword-Birth-Global-Empire/dp/0307473651/ref=la_B000APEALK_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1369331774&sr=1-2

This http://www.amazon.com/Muhammad-Believers-At-Origins-Islam/dp/0674064143 is another good one. It basically says that the early Muslims were a little hazy on whether they were a distinct religion or if Jews and Christians could also be Muslims.

Well the reviews on that one make me skeptical.

[Siege]

What a fag...