Pope Francis says atheists can be good

[The Minsky Moment]

Minsky, Otto - do you have any thoughts now on how many angels might fit on the head of a pin?

Presumably an infinite number because they have no corporeality unless they choose to manifest to us.

[fhdz]

Excellent. I am glad to see someone around here cares about the pressing issues of the day.

[The Minsky Moment]

Numquam ponenda est pluralitas sine necessitate

Okham IIRC postulated that the substance of the bread and wine also remains so both substances (the victuals and JC) are present.  That is more consistent with a strictly spiritual view but as with other things Okham said and did, skirts heresy.

[grumbler]

Yes, but this is esoterics. What matters is that in a popular term of the word, this is not a miracle (as opposed to situations where the holy host starts to bleed, for example).

Tell this catholic priest that it is not a miracle: http://www.fatherjames.org/2012/07/25/the-miracle-of-the-eucharist/

At every Holy Sacrifice of the Mass, we participate in a marvelous miracle, the miracle called Transubstantiation. 

I am sure he will correct his mistaken assumptions once you explain it to him.

[Viking]

Which is Theology speak for "we make it up as we go along". You are arguing that the best understanding of the nature of the world and morality and ethics is to listen to people who spent their entire life understanding a book you already say is full of un-truth.

I did not say Catholic priests or theologians spend their lives studying the bible. They spend their lives studying certainly in part biblical passages but general theological thought and that is a greater field than just biblical study.

I did not say studying. I used the word "understanding". Catholics get their dogma from the Holy Ghost not the Holy Bible. The problem I have here is they start with an unverifiable and untestible premise. That makes any dogma or argument they make likewise unverifiable and untestible. Their dogma are unsinkable rubber ducks, mere assertions as opposed to relevant and useful knowledge.

[The Brain]

Minsky, Otto - do you have any thoughts now on how many angels might fit on the head of a pin?

Presumably an infinite number because they have no corporeality unless they choose to manifest to us.

You think there is an infinite number of angels?

[The Minsky Moment]

Minsky, Otto - do you have any thoughts now on how many angels might fit on the head of a pin?

Presumably an infinite number because they have no corporeality unless they choose to manifest to us.

You think there is an infinite number of angels?

No.
That inference doesn't follow.

[Malthus]

Minsky, Otto - do you have any thoughts now on how many angels might fit on the head of a pin?

Presumably an infinite number because they have no corporeality unless they choose to manifest to us.

You think there is an infinite number of angels?

Clearly. In hyperbolic space. 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QnSIWe_o15g

[DGuller]

If Luther had been a Languishista, it would have been 95 feces he nailed to the door of the Church of Wittenberg. 

How do you nail feces to the door?  Even if they've been dried out before that, they would still crumble once you drive nails through them.

[Malthus]

If Luther had been a Languishista, it would have been 95 feces he nailed to the door of the Church of Wittenberg. 

How do you nail feces to the door?  Even if they've been dried out before that, they would still crumble once you drive nails through them.

Feces come in all sorts of consistencies - just ask Ed.  I'm sure some of them are nailable. Though I'll admit, I've never tried.

Anyway, that's what I call a wide-ranging Languish discussion - from Angels on a pin, to shit on a nail.

[Martinus]

Minsky, Otto - do you have any thoughts now on how many angels might fit on the head of a pin?

Presumably an infinite number because they have no corporeality unless they choose to manifest to us.

You think there is an infinite number of angels?

It just struck me that Languish would make a hell of an inquisition tribunal. Heretics would prefer iron maiden to questioning by grumbler.

[Viking]

If Luther had been a Languishista, it would have been 95 feces he nailed to the door of the Church of Wittenberg. 

How do you nail feces to the door?  Even if they've been dried out before that, they would still crumble once you drive nails through them.

Cow Pies. If you had been following the german beer fracking thread you would know that there are 13 million cows in germany. Plenty of cow pies.

[Barrister]

I actually wonder how many here have sat in on a American Protestant religious service. A grandmother on my father's side was Presbyterian, a mainline Protestant denomination and their services are very normal and non-crazy to me. But I've heard Southern Baptist and Pentecostal sermons and in between the mixture of craziness, speaking in tongues and other insanity the core message of all of their sermons I've ever heard have been either of two possible things: 1) if you do not do exactly what the Bible says you will burn forever in Hell and can most likely expect horrible things to happen to you in the material world as well, 2) any problem in life can be and should be first resolved by devotion to God and prayer, you should pray for anyone who is having a problem because God will answer those prayers and solve those problems for you, any concern at all with matters of the world is innately sinful and wrong.

It seems like you're climbing down from your earlier post:

It's actually interesting to see the development of American Protestantism, which in many ways undermines much of that. American Protestants regularly believe God takes frequent, direct personal action in their lives. They believe prayers are akin to spells that work miracles on demand and all kinds of things that really were not part of early Christianity or even Christianity aside from the weird vein of American Protestantism. Now, that's not to say Christians weren't stupid and superstitious before American Protestantism, but they tended instead to be easily convinced by deceptive monks and such that "miracles" were being worked and there was a framework for this concept of miracles. Further, periodically the higher up authorities in the Church would preach out against that sort of superstitious bullshit, so while it was happening it was never fully accepted doctrine. For many branches of American Protestantism it's basically widely understood and part of doctrine that prayers can work miracles and do pretty much constantly and that any random event in life is 100% ascribable to God's direct hand.

You now seem to agree with me that mainstream protestant denominations don't do any of that stuff.

If you want to go pick on the evangelicals, go right ahead.  I have no horse in that race.

But I still don't get the argument that Catholics don't do stuff like that.  Putting aside transubstantiation, it is a part of Catholic faith that one can pray to the Saints for their intercession in human affairs.  In fact I can't think of any Christian denomination that doesn't believe that prayer has some value and may be helpful.

[fhdz]

Anyway, that's what I call a wide-ranging Languish discussion - from Angels on a pin, to shit on a nail.

Yes, perfectly fitting.

[OttoVonBismarck]

You now seem to agree with me that mainstream protestant denominations don't do any of that stuff.

I agree mainline Protestants in America are not like that. But based on demography, they are not really the mainstream in American Protestantism any longer, evangelical Protestants outnumber other types of Protestants in America and that trend will only accelerate. Mainline Protestantism breeds younger generations that are mostly apathetic to religion, whereas evangelicals breed even young people that buck the trend and are straight up crazy. They've got a very good system in place to avoid the traditional liberalizing from one generation to the next. First, these kids if they go to public school are in a State where most dangerous ideas have been prohibited from the class room via fundamentalist school boards or etc, if not they're likely to be home schooled or in private schools with a decidedly evangelical bent. Many of them go to bible colleges when they graduate High School, many of which are not even regionally accredited (so for example a teaching degree from one of these schools would not be sufficient for a teaching certification in many States), so their children are fully protected from ever being exposed to different ways of thinking. After 22 years or so of that they're fully indoctrinated adults and are ready to start creating a fresh generation of like minded people. They also tend to have more children than less religious Protestants. So in all reality the fundies are the face of American Protestantism, outnumber the mainline types, and are continuing to grow while other denominations shrink.

If you want to go pick on the evangelicals, go right ahead.  I have no horse in that race.

But I still don't get the argument that Catholics don't do stuff like that.  Putting aside transubstantiation, it is a part of Catholic faith that one can pray to the Saints for their intercession in human affairs.  In fact I can't think of any Christian denomination that doesn't believe that prayer has some value and may be helpful.

There is petitionary prayer, sure, but I think you're intentionally conflating Catholic practices with American Protestant practices where they genuinely believe prayer of that sort is supposed to be the fabric of every day life. Any problem you have, you should pray for God to solve it. Kid sick? Pray for him to get better. Boss an asshole? Pray for things to get better at work. Short on cash? Pray for money. That's honestly out of sync with how any Catholics I know operate.