2016 elections - because it's never too early

[Berkut]

Indeed - and what she did NOT say is that women suffer more than men from war, despite you insisting that she did say just that.

She made a direct implication to that effect.  If women are the *primary* victims of war, men must be the secondary victims.  Unless you think women and men are both primary, in which case primary carries zero meaning and should not be used.

No, I think she is saying that they are both primary victims, as opposed to the idea she is trying to get away from that women are only secondary victims. I know that for a man like yourself, and suggestion that women might have equal status in any way is seen as a implicit demotion, but not everyone shares that binary view of the world.

The point she never made is that men don't suffer,

Never claimed she did.

are not victims,

Never said that, either.

or that either men or women have some kind of trump card of suffering over the other one.

Okay now that she did say.

Except that she didn't, and this is blindingly obvious if you actually read the context of her speech, rather than picking out a sentence that you can then construct some moral outrage over.

[Berkut]

Let's put it this way:

"During WW2 16 million Americans served in WW2.  Of that number, 300,000 were victimized by Axis forces."

OR

""During WW2 16 million Americans served in WW2.  Of that number, 300,000 gave their lives while fighting Axis forces."

Which of those sounds right to you?

Whichever one makes Hillary out as the man hating monster, of course.

[Martinus]

It's a rather odd use of language to refer to military combatants in a war as the "victims" of the war.  There are some circumstances where that might make sense, but not typically.  That is not to say that the soldiers or combatants do not suffer, obviously they do - and our culture honors, commemorates and respects that suffering.

"Victims" of a war typically refers to civilians harmed by the war, i.e. non-combatants.  And HC is probably right that historically the brunt of that falls disproportionately on women and their children.

So, the WW2 was virtually a victimless war from the US and the UK perspective?

I guess you don't care at all about what Hillary actually said. She noted how women can be victims which extends beyond being killed.

Valmy said:

Well they do tend to get raped, killed, sold into slavery, starved, and bombed when the war is close to home.  Just losing your male buddies/relatives/partners means you got off comparatively lightly.

So operating from that perspective, US women do not fit any of the cathegories (at least in any substantial numbers) - UK women the "being bombed" part, but so do in equal UK men who were not soldiers.

And if you think that you are a victim because your husband was killed (and this makes you more of a victim than he was) then you are insanely callous.

[garbon]

It's a rather odd use of language to refer to military combatants in a war as the "victims" of the war.  There are some circumstances where that might make sense, but not typically.  That is not to say that the soldiers or combatants do not suffer, obviously they do - and our culture honors, commemorates and respects that suffering.

"Victims" of a war typically refers to civilians harmed by the war, i.e. non-combatants.  And HC is probably right that historically the brunt of that falls disproportionately on women and their children.

So, the WW2 was virtually a victimless war from the US and the UK perspective?

I guess you don't care at all about what Hillary actually said. She noted how women can be victims which extends beyond being killed.

Valmy said:

Well they do tend to get raped, killed, sold into slavery, starved, and bombed when the war is close to home.  Just losing your male buddies/relatives/partners means you got off comparatively lightly.

So operating from that perspective, US women do not fit any of the cathegories (at least in any substantial numbers) - UK women the "being bombed" part, but so do in equal UK men who were not soldiers.

And if you think that you are a victim because your husband was killed (and this makes you more of a victim than he was) then you are insanely callous.

Okay, I'll go back to what had been a good plan. Skipping past your posts in this thread - so apologies if I don't reply.

[Berkut]

And if you think that you are a victim because your husband was killed (and this makes you more of a victim than he was) then you are insanely callous.

You don't think losing a husband, son, brother, or other loved one to war makes someone a victim of that war?

WTF? Do you understand what the word "victim" means?

At least, as Minsky has shown, one can argue that a combatant isn't a victim, since they were actually involved, but how do you possible argue that having a son killed in war doesn't make someone a victim of that war, much less a husband who you might have been counting on for support?

Fuck, the level if doublethink necessary to conclude that she is somehow slighting men because she is recognizing that women are harmed by war and violence is just amazing.

[Valmy]

Twisting whatever the other team says or does as pure evil is what politics is all about these days. At least internet politics...which sadly is politics making us all the real victims.

[derspiess]

Twisting whatever the other team says or does as pure evil is what politics is all about these days. At least internet politics...which sadly is politics making us all the real victims.

In this election, I guess we are all Primary victims.

[Valmy]

In this election, I guess we are all Primary victims.

[derspiess]

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/post-politics/wp/2016/06/06/in-a-tense-exchange-bernie-sanders-says-his-refusal-to-quit-is-not-sexist/

[Admiral Yi]

Surely Donald prefers soldiers who don't get themselves killed.

[Zanza]

Or those of the 352th Infantry division that tried to defend the Atlantikwall against a foreign invasion? 

[garbon]

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/post-politics/wp/2016/06/06/in-a-tense-exchange-bernie-sanders-says-his-refusal-to-quit-is-not-sexist/

Totally ridiculous that he was asked that.

[DGuller]

I voted today. 

[Admiral Yi]

CNN says some Republican officeholders have started to withdraw their support from Trump over the Curiel comment.

[garbon]

CNN says some Republican officeholders have started to withdraw their support from Trump over the Curiel comment.

It is probably hard for those who have their seats up for a vote to keep on with someone than many prominent Republicans are castigating for racist comments.