Abortion doctor charged with 7 counts of murder in Philly

[Razgovory]

And yeah, the pic was a bit much.  Lets avoid posting pictures of mutilated human corpses if we can.

[derspiess]

Oh ok. So this is about a criminal killing people for profit. So where's the catch? 

It'd be a different story to some people if he aborted them in the 21st trimester with an assault rifle in a classroom, as opposed to the 3rd trimester in an alleged abortion clinic.  Then it would be no biggie.

Ahh, there's my Johnny.

[CountDeMoney]

Oh ok. So this is about a criminal killing people for profit. So where's the catch? 

It'd be a different story to some people if he aborted them in the 21st trimester with an assault rifle in a classroom, as opposed to the 3rd trimester in an alleged abortion clinic.  Then it would be no biggie.

Ahh, there's my Johnny.

Scissors don't kill people, people kill people.

[OttoVonBismarck]

I don't really get how the picture is that graphic. If you go to the article itself, which is a mainstream U.S. news website, that same picture is right there for the world to see with no spoilers or warnings. I'd think if it's appropriate for the news website for a major American city, on the front page and with no "graphic images" warning, it should be fine for Languish.

I guess I forget not everyone has seen lots of fucked up bodies in their life. But this picture wasn't that crazy, no worse than pictures I've seen pro-lifers walking around town with.

[Legbiter]

Had to joke that I was looking at porn so the wife wouldn't see the dead baby. 

Man, that's some fucked up shit.

[HVC]

Meh pictures not that bad. Sad story. Didn't read it all since Im at work. Might read it over the weekend.

[Malthus]

Had to joke that I was looking at porn so the wife wouldn't see the dead baby. 

Great. Now your wife thinks that dead babies turn you on. 

[Legbiter]

Had to joke that I was looking at porn so the wife wouldn't see the dead baby. 

Great. Now your wife thinks that dead babies turn you on. 

She's 3 months pregnant. I'd sooner go "nothing honey, go back to sleep, just sexting up a chick I'm fucking" than let her see this.

[Ideologue]

To some degree the women in wealthier communities would protect against this. Upper income women tend to understand a clinic where nothing has been cleaned, where surgical equipment is covered in dust, and where the doctor is asking 15 year olds to administer sedation is a place you need to get the hell out of right away. Sadly this is a prime example of government not protecting those least informed and able to do the job themselves.

I imagine a lot of them knew they were doing something unlawful and understood this is where you can get help to do it.

I'm not sure how I feel about the abortions--it's definitely awful work, and bright line rules about personhood are probably necessary, but I neither know nor particularly wish to discuss (I'll leave talking about shit that clearly really upsets other people to Martinus) where they should lie--but the state of the facility and the lack of concern for the adult patients is, to me, the far more shocking part.  I think at the point that a high school student is about to give me anesthesia or I see dust all over the equipment, maybe "adoption" or "raising a child" starts to sound like the lesser of evils, but some people get very desperate and cannot think clearly, if they could think clearly in the first place.

[OttoVonBismarck]

Well, we're talking about babies that are fully born and then killed. I don't really know anywhere that isn't just considered straight infanticide. Historically there were times and places, in much harsher societies, where we can argue about the necessity for specific cases of infanticide. In the ancient world a clearly deformed/disabled baby just wasn't something people of the time could take care of nor could it ever have any real life or even much hope of survival. In those contexts infanticide is a necessary tragedy. But this is the United States we're talking about here and someone who is theoretically a medical doctor having fully delivered babies spinal cord's severed. That's murder pretty much everywhere in the OECD and even most of the third world.

It's actually not that far removed from partial-birth abortion, which is one point Marti made correctly. There is really no defense for partial birth abortion from a moral or even legal standpoint. I will say, a late term pregnancy if the doctors find a complication and have to choose a method of ending the pregnancy that kills the baby I'm okay with the mother making that decision from a legal standpoint, but the doctors should be required to do anything within their power to preserve the fetal life in those scenarios where it doesn't interfere with the medical treatment the mother needs to receive.

[Ideologue]

Well, we're talking about babies that are fully born and then killed. I don't really know anywhere that isn't just considered straight infanticide. Historically there were times and places, in much harsher societies, where we can argue about the necessity for specific cases of infanticide. In the ancient world a clearly deformed/disabled baby just wasn't something people of the time could take care of nor could it ever have any real life or even much hope of survival. In those contexts infanticide is a necessary tragedy. But this is the United States we're talking about here and someone who is theoretically a medical doctor having fully delivered babies spinal cord's severed. That's murder pretty much everywhere in the OECD and even most of the third world.

It's actually not that far removed from partial-birth abortion, which is one point Marti made correctly. There is really no defense for partial birth abortion from a moral or even legal standpoint. I will say, a late term pregnancy if the doctors find a complication and have to choose a method of ending the pregnancy that kills the baby I'm okay with the mother making that decision from a legal standpoint, but the doctors should be required to do anything within their power to preserve the fetal life in those scenarios where it doesn't interfere with the medical treatment the mother needs to receive.

Well, recognizing that this is in the context of what is clearly a tragedy and a most egregious breach of medical ethics and common morality, I guess I have to address it since I did bring it up.

I'll start with the position that I don't think infanticide is a good thing.  However, if you accept the pro-choice arguments about personhood, I think logically you have to accept that it is very unclear whether late-term fetuses or even babies are people in the full sense of the word.  Since obviously most people feel that killing a nine month old fetus at delivery is really terrible, and I'm not exactly cool with it myself, I'm fine with that being criminalized, since in most cases the mother has had all the chances in the world to abort at an earlier, less contestible time.  My point is solely that bright line rules like 24 weeks, or birth, or a month after birth, are administratively and legally convenient, but violations thereof are unlikely to be malum in se in every case, and never to the same same degree that, say, killing a thinking, speaking, remembering--clearly fully human--two year old is.

Thus the state's interest in that life (as it is always a life), could be argued to be outweighed by other factors prior to the time (whenever that is) that a full human emerges from the sentient but not-yet-sapient brain of a fetus, at which point the law must protect them, or you veer off a slippery slope where it protects no one.

Since that slope is very slippery, birth plus one day is pretty much the absolute latest I could accept (and then probably with some caveats, like horrific disability like Harlequinism, where it would clearly be a mercy, or surprise birth--which I guess maybe happens--or complete lack of access to medical care preventing a lawful abortion, etc.), and 24 weeks doesn't hurt my feelings a bit, even though both are not extremely meaningful in terms of personhood, etc, on an intellectual level (though on an emotional level, which is not trivial, such boundaries may mean a great deal).

Also, and this is important, I have always been more concerned about the infliction of or indifference to pain and suffering, than I am the actual destruction of any given life.  This is for various philosophical reasons that I won't bore you with, but that's also part of why I'm probably more upset about the adults who got seriously hurt and no doubt traumatized, than the fetuses/infants, who at least went relatively quickly--not to say entirely painlessly, but I'm not a doctor.

[Fate]

I think it's absurd to consider aborting a 24-25 weeker to be murder. Babies delivered at that age are usually very fucked up and end up being a huge burden on parents, medical resources, and the social safety net. You'll find many neonatologists who think it's unethical that we're intervening so early to keep babies alive... but just alive. They generally have an absolutely horrible long term quality of life.

[Caliga]

I think it's absurd to consider aborting a 24-25 weeker to be murder. Babies delivered at that age are usually very fucked up and end up being a huge burden on parents, medical resources, and the social safety net. You'll find many neonatologists who think it's unethical that we're intervening so early to keep babies alive... but with an absolutely horrible long term quality of life.

My wife's cousin's wife had a baby at 24 weeks and she lived, but she has some sort of eye problem and so wears these goofy looking glasses.  Everyone says they look so cute but I think she looks like a nerd and want to give her diaper wedgies.

[Fate]

I think it's absurd to consider aborting a 24-25 weeker to be murder. Babies delivered at that age are usually very fucked up and end up being a huge burden on parents, medical resources, and the social safety net. You'll find many neonatologists who think it's unethical that we're intervening so early to keep babies alive... but with an absolutely horrible long term quality of life.

My wife's cousin's wife had a baby at 24 weeks and she lived, but she has some sort of eye problem and so wears these goofy looking glasses.  Everyone says they look so cute but I think she looks like a nerd and want to give her diaper wedgies.

I'm glad she's alive and relatively healthy, but the general public doesn't see the vastly majority who are fucked up. They tend to die early or end up as wards of the state in ventilator farms. If you've ever been to a ventilator farm (essentially a building with 30+ teenagers attached to ventilators, feeding tubes, and the mental functioning of infant) then you'd reconsider the ethics of intervention.

[Caliga]

This same couple had a baby earlier who was also born at 24 weeks but died about 3-4 days after birth.  For some reason her womb refuses to carry a baby fully to term.