Chávez dead

[DGuller]

The dude that got impeached?  You guys are calling that a coup? 

You're not calling that a coup?

[Sheilbh]

The dude that got impeached?  You guys are calling that a coup? 

That was the spin at the time, although I mainly remember it being Hans. The military took over from a civilian democratically elected government. They argued that it was constitutionally acceptable. And the Congress agreed unanimously, admittedly there were troops on the street. Personally I think that would just make it a constitutional coup.

The Honduran Supreme Court set up a Truth and Reconciliation who ruled that it was a coup:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-latin-america-14072148
Everything I've read about it refers to it as a coup not an impeachment. Even in articles about the papabili the major count against the Honduran Cardinal was that he seemed initially supportive of the coup (as the National Catholic Reporter calls it). Which is an indicator all of its own.

[derspiess]

It was pretty weak as far as coups go.

[Admiral Yi]

The Honduran Supreme Court ruled the sitting president's action illegal.  He continued.  The Honduran voted him out of office and chose an interim president. 

If that's a coup the word has lost all its meaning.

Shelf, how shall I interpret your ducking of my other question?

[garbon]

Perhaps if the United States played a more proactive and constructive role of positive ngagement in Central and South American countries over the last 50 years instead of just noticing whenever the color red flared up, there'd be less noodleheads like Hugo Chavez to worry about.  We've got no problem being the shining city on the hill for everybody else except our own fucking hemisphere.

I agree entirely. I hoped for a new start in the relationship after the end of the Cold War and the general democratisation of Latin America. It hasn't happened, I think drift was the best word that could describe W's policies there and even that's probably too kind to describe Obama's. It's a shame.

Well, Admiral Yi and garbon think you should go fuck yourself.

Whereas you appear to think Latin Americans are children that we need to teach how to behave.

[garbon]

The Honduran case is a very bizarre one from wiki. It has one large article about it being a constitutional crisis and another long article about it being a coup.

[Sheilbh]

The Honduran Supreme Court ruled the sitting president's action illegal.  He continued.  The Honduran voted him out of office and chose an interim president. 

The Supreme Court authorised the military to remove him - which they did and to expel him from the country without trial, which they did. Later that day Congress voted him out of office, accepting a forged resignation letter and appointed an interim government. In this whole situation the Supreme Court, President, military and Congress went beyond their constitutional limits.

If the military storming a Presidential palace, shipping the democratically elected incumbent off to a third country and declaring a temporary state of emergency isn't a coup, then I don't know what is.

Shelf, how shall I interpret your ducking of my other question?

Which other question?

[garbon]

Back in 2009, Der was happy about the coup.

http://languish.org/forums/index.php/topic,1367.0.html

[Sheilbh]

The Honduran case is a very bizarre one from wiki. It has one large article about it being a constitutional crisis and another long article about it being a coup.

It was both. There was a constitutional crisis broadly between the Supreme Court and Congress against the President. In the middle of that the Supreme Court authorised the military to arrest him and they removed him and sent him to Costa Rica.

[CountDeMoney]

Perhaps if the United States played a more proactive and constructive role of positive ngagement in Central and South American countries over the last 50 years instead of just noticing whenever the color red flared up, there'd be less noodleheads like Hugo Chavez to worry about.  We've got no problem being the shining city on the hill for everybody else except our own fucking hemisphere.

I agree entirely. I hoped for a new start in the relationship after the end of the Cold War and the general democratisation of Latin America. It hasn't happened, I think drift was the best word that could describe W's policies there and even that's probably too kind to describe Obama's. It's a shame.

Well, Admiral Yi and garbon think you should go fuck yourself.

Whereas you appear to think Latin Americans are children that we need to teach how to behave.

And how is that any different from any other aspect of our foreign policy?

[Admiral Yi]

Whereas you appear to think Latin Americans are children that we need to teach how to behave.

That would at least have the advantage of being a concrete proposal.  Hey, if Latin Americans were to write the US a letter and say, hey, we're retards, please teach us how to choose better governments, I would be more than happy to put a little presentation together.

But with words like "proactive," and "constructive," and "engagement" (Seedy's preferred term a couple years back) all you get are a mechanism for assigning the blame for other people's shitty choices to the US.  If the president visited three countries a year would they elect fewer morons?  If we threw a couple billion in aid at them would they elect fewer morons?  What is being proactive in actual practice?

[garbon]

Meanwhile Languish opinion seemed to have been against Obama's stance and Raz/Sheilbh didn't care two wits to say anything about Honduras while the coup was happening (/its aftermath).

[derspiess]

Back in 2009, Der was happy about the coup.

http://languish.org/forums/index.php/topic,1367.0.html

And?

[Sheilbh]

Meanwhile Languish opinion seemed to have been against Obama's stance and Raz/Sheilbh didn't care two wits to say anything about Honduras while the coup was happening (/its aftermath).

Even now my main interest is on its effect on the Conclave

Alf asked what 2009 coup, I answered and then explained why I think it qualifies as a coup - not least because that's what the Honduran state now considers it - but looking back the story I've read is the same as Minsky read at the time and I think in that thread he was right. But I was skimming.

[garbon]

Back in 2009, Der was happy about the coup.

http://languish.org/forums/index.php/topic,1367.0.html

And?

Just leading credence to the idea that we did considered it a coup.