Chávez dead

[Admiral Yi]

The Supreme Court authorised the military to remove him - which they did and to expel him from the country without trial, which they did. Later that day Congress voted him out of office, accepting a forged resignation letter and appointed an interim government. In this whole situation the Supreme Court, President, military and Congress went beyond their constitutional limits.

If the military storming a Presidential palace, shipping the democratically elected incumbent off to a third country and declaring a temporary state of emergency isn't a coup, then I don't know what is.

Well that part about Congress voting him out of office after he was already out of office was something I was unaware of (or had subconsciously suppressed) and could cause me re-evaluate my opinion.

You say it was done unconstitutionally.  Do you happen to know what it would have taken to make it constitutional, or are you taking someone else's word for it?

Which other question?

How the right wing's obsession with Chavez manifested itself.

[derspiess]

Back in 2009, Der was happy about the coup.

http://languish.org/forums/index.php/topic,1367.0.html

And?

Just leading credence to the idea that we did considered it a coup.

In fairness, I think I changed my mind a couple times on that.

[Sheilbh]

You say it was done unconstitutionally.  Do you happen to know what it would have taken to make it constitutional, or are you taking someone else's word for it?

No idea. The Truth and Reconciliation Commission report says that Congress acted beyond its powers in removing him and appointing the speaker as interim President.

How the right wing's obsession with Chavez manifested itself.

Read some of the conservative blogs. Redstate alone brings up 4 pages of results, since 2010. A search of Limbaugh brings up over 180 mentions, including many full mini-discussions, since 2007. Look at how many articles about him there are on Fox (you can search). It all seems a tad disproportionate for a sideshow.

[Admiral Yi]

No idea. The Truth and Reconciliation Commission report says that Congress acted beyond its powers in removing him and appointing the speaker as interim President.

Yeah, the problem with the commission is that it was appointed by the OAS, which jumped all over itself at the time branding the action illegal.

Read some of the conservative blogs. Redstate alone brings up 4 pages of results, since 2010. A search of Limbaugh brings up over 180 mentions, including many full mini-discussions, since 2007. Look at how many articles about him there are on Fox (you can search). It all seems a tad disproportionate for a sideshow.

Kay. 

Carry on Raz. 

[Sheilbh]

Yeah, the problem with the commission is that it was appointed by the OAS, which jumped all over itself at the time branding the action illegal.

It was appointed by the OAS and the Honduran Supreme Court, reported to the Supreme Court and was made up of respected Honduran figures.

Edit: And incidentally of course the OAS would be jumping about it illegal. Latin America democratised at great cost in the past 20-30 years so I can see how they'd want to be very demanding in preserving that and wanting to see troops remain in the bases.

[Valmy]

I agree entirely. I hoped for a new start in the relationship after the end of the Cold War and the general democratisation of Latin America. It hasn't happened, I think drift was the best word that could describe W's policies there and even that's probably too kind to describe Obama's. It's a shame.

Yet another way W was a huge failure.  He made a real effort to work with Mexico when he was Governor and Mexico thought it was a really good thing for them when he was elected.  Then...nothing.

This is certainly not the only way the Feds failed after the Cold War.  So many missed opportunities squandered.

[Valmy]

Back in 2009, Der was happy about the coup.

http://languish.org/forums/index.php/topic,1367.0.html

I miss Hans.  He would have provided some fun in this thread.

[alfred russel]

I can't believe that Chavez dies and the next day the thread is hijacked into the legal particulars of the Honduran coup/not coup.

At least I think we can agree that Raz was wrong that people didn't give a fuck about the coup.

[CountDeMoney]

I miss Hans.  He would have provided some fun in this thread.

Not really, no.

[PDH]

Back in 2009, Der was happy about the coup.

http://languish.org/forums/index.php/topic,1367.0.html

I miss Hans.  He would have provided some fun in this thread.

Hans has gone all rightwing gangsta now.  He just does driveby drudge now.

[dps]

I agree entirely. I hoped for a new start in the relationship after the end of the Cold War and the general democratisation of Latin America. It hasn't happened, I think drift was the best word that could describe W's policies there and even that's probably too kind to describe Obama's. It's a shame.

Yet another way W was a huge failure.  He made a real effort to work with Mexico when he was Governor and Mexico thought it was a really good thing for them when he was elected.  Then...nothing.

This is certainly not the only way the Feds failed after the Cold War.  So many missed opportunities squandered.

I think that we squandered more after the end of WWII.  Oh well.

[Queequeg]

I think there's a lot of truth to it. And many left-wingers were irrationally obsessed with him - I mentioned earlier the progressive pissing contest between those who were more progressive because they supported the Bolivarian revolution and those who were more progressive because he was a quasi-dictator.

I think Chavez got more traction out of America's dislike of him than was ever warranted by the depth of the dislike, or the actions we undertook against his regime. 

[derspiess]

I agree entirely. I hoped for a new start in the relationship after the end of the Cold War and the general democratisation of Latin America. It hasn't happened, I think drift was the best word that could describe W's policies there and even that's probably too kind to describe Obama's. It's a shame.

Yet another way W was a huge failure.  He made a real effort to work with Mexico when he was Governor and Mexico thought it was a really good thing for them when he was elected.  Then...nothing.

This is certainly not the only way the Feds failed after the Cold War.  So many missed opportunities squandered.

I think that we squandered more after the end of WWII.  Oh well.

What are these opportunities you guys are talking about?  And would they actually have advanced our own national interest?

[Valmy]

What are these opportunities you guys are talking about?  And would they actually have advanced our own national interest?

What are "our" national interest here?  What I consider to be of national interest, well of course, and since I have only been talking about this for ten years I assume you have some grasp of what I am talking about here.  But "our" national interest may be different.

[Razgovory]

What a strange discussion.  Raz, mongers, and The Nation all seem to have adopted the same party line when it comes to discussing Chavez and his legacy: right-wingers were irrationally obsessed with him. 

It has the advantage of distracting attention from his abundant failings, but it has the disadvantage of not being supported by the evidence.  Chavez had a brief blip of notoriety when it came to light he was supporting FARC, and rightly so.  Supporting an narco-insurgency against a democratic ally is no laughing matter.  He had another 10 seconds of fame when he called Bushitler the Devilhitler at the UN.  Then another two day news cycle when it appeared he was cultivating ties with Iran.  Other than that he has been a nonentity.

As a side note, I was amused by The Nation's temerity in citing Carter's original approval of Chavez' 2nd election, as he has gone on record since as saying though he observed irregularities, he decided not to mention them because he was concerned doing so might lead to disorder or somesuch.

It also has the benefit of being true.  How come the rest of the world lacks this obsession with Chavez?