Chávez dead

[derspiess]

Raz is in the same type of anti-Right mood that once caused him to defend Al Sharpton

[alfred russel]

Yeah, shelf.  But he's not the one cheering this on and calling the man a dictator.  Riddle me this, why is that the right wing are the ones so concerned about Chavez?  Most of the world really isn't.

You know what part of the world Chavez became one of the leading figures? Latin America, which is basically our hemisphere less ourselves and Canada. He was the leader of the anti US left wing there. And in Latin America he is generally not well regarded (though of course he has his fans). Perhaps the biggest downside to his death is so long as he hung around, he significantly discredited a movement that has some support within Latin America.

[CountDeMoney]

Perhaps if the United States played a more proactive and constructive role of positive ngagement in Central and South American countries over the last 50 years instead of just noticing whenever the color red flared up, there'd be less noodleheads like Hugo Chavez to worry about.  We've got no problem being the shining city on the hill for everybody else except our own fucking hemisphere.

[alfred russel]

Raz, what is the failed coup against Chavez supposed to tell us about Chavez's character?

I never said anything of the sort.   Chavez is bad because he attempted to launch a coup.  Someone one launches a coup against him nobody seems to be that paticularly concerned.

The thread's about Chavez

Also, in the interest of fairness, that was only one of the "Chavez was bad because" points.

The real "Chavez is bad points is that he was a leftist and that he said mean things about GWB."  The Coup thing is bullshit.  Like I pointed out, Latin America had a coup in 2009, nobody gives a flying fuck.  So lets not all pretend we are principled about S. American Democracy.  Shelf points out the man isn't actually a dictator and he's accused of defending him!

Let's face it, the right wing has been told that this is an evil man who endangers America for last decade, so when the guy dies who do we see cheering?  Why it's the our right wing usual suspects all cheering.  Amazing.  So yeah, I'm suggesting there is a partisan aspect of this.  Our more conservative friends were quite a bit more subdued when Pinochet died, and he was a dictator who launched a successful coup.

Who had a coup in 2009?

[derspiess]

Like spicy has friends.

Yes.  I even have Mexican friends.  *Real* Mexicans

[dps]

Our more conservative friends were quite a bit more subdued when Pinochet died, and he was a dictator who launched a successful coup.

A couple of important differences--Pinochet never tried to make himself a threat to American interests, and had been out of power for a good while at the time of his death.

[Admiral Yi]

Perhaps if the United States played a more proactive and constructive role of positive ngagement in Central and South American countries over the last 50 years instead of just noticing whenever the color red flared up, there'd be less noodleheads like Hugo Chavez to worry about.  We've got no problem being the shining city on the hill for everybody else except our own fucking hemisphere.

That's gotta be it.  No way Latin Americans can be stupid enough to keep electing the buffoons they do, it must be because we're not proactivating and constructing them enough.

[katmai]

Like spicy has friends.

Yes.  I even have Mexican friends.  *Real* Mexicans

The people holding your targets at firing range don't count as friends.

[derspiess]

Like spicy has friends.

Yes.  I even have Mexican friends.  *Real* Mexicans

The people holding your targets at firing range don't count as friends.

  Yes they do.  I tip them generously, pronounce their names correctly, and they love me.

[garbon]

Perhaps if the United States played a more proactive and constructive role of positive ngagement in Central and South American countries over the last 50 years instead of just noticing whenever the color red flared up, there'd be less noodleheads like Hugo Chavez to worry about.  We've got no problem being the shining city on the hill for everybody else except our own fucking hemisphere.

That's gotta be it.  No way Latin Americans can be stupid enough to keep electing the buffoons they do, it must be because we're not proactivating and constructing them enough.

If only we'd modeled better behavior Latin America would have shaped up.

[Ed Anger]

Like spicy has friends.

Yes.  I even have Mexican friends.  *Real* Mexicans

The people holding your targets at firing range don't count as friends.

  Yes they do.  I tip them generously, pronounce their names correctly, and they love me.

Give 'em some Lemon Pledge and they'll worship you.

[Sheilbh]

What a strange discussion.  Raz, mongers, and The Nation all seem to have adopted the same party line when it comes to discussing Chavez and his legacy: right-wingers were irrationally obsessed with him. 

I think there's a lot of truth to it. And many left-wingers were irrationally obsessed with him - I mentioned earlier the progressive pissing contest between those who were more progressive because they supported the Bolivarian revolution and those who were more progressive because he was a quasi-dictator.

The truth, I suspect, is because it's what he wanted and he was a skilful political actor.

Perhaps if the United States played a more proactive and constructive role of positive ngagement in Central and South American countries over the last 50 years instead of just noticing whenever the color red flared up, there'd be less noodleheads like Hugo Chavez to worry about.  We've got no problem being the shining city on the hill for everybody else except our own fucking hemisphere.

I agree entirely. I hoped for a new start in the relationship after the end of the Cold War and the general democratisation of Latin America. It hasn't happened, I think drift was the best word that could describe W's policies there and even that's probably too kind to describe Obama's. It's a shame.

At this point I think you can probably say Britain's got a clearer idea of what she wants in the region than the US

A couple of important differences--Pinochet never tried to make himself a threat to American interests, and had been out of power for a good while at the time of his death.

I think Raz is right about the partisan differences. Pinochet was a mirror-image of Chavez in that sense - though I would note he was a real, classic Latin American dictator.

Who had a coup in 2009?

Honduras.

[Admiral Yi]

I think there's a lot of truth to it.

How has this obsession manifested itself?  Cuz I sure haven't seen it.

Honduras.

The dude that got impeached?  You guys are calling that a coup? 

[alfred russel]

The Honduras coup is ridiculous to bring up as an example of no one caring.

It was strongly condemned at the time by the administration and elections have since been held. It was extensively debated on Languish as well.

[CountDeMoney]

Perhaps if the United States played a more proactive and constructive role of positive ngagement in Central and South American countries over the last 50 years instead of just noticing whenever the color red flared up, there'd be less noodleheads like Hugo Chavez to worry about.  We've got no problem being the shining city on the hill for everybody else except our own fucking hemisphere.

I agree entirely. I hoped for a new start in the relationship after the end of the Cold War and the general democratisation of Latin America. It hasn't happened, I think drift was the best word that could describe W's policies there and even that's probably too kind to describe Obama's. It's a shame.

Well, Admiral Yi and garbon think you should go fuck yourself.