Pope Benedict XVI 'is to resign'

[Viking]

Your command of English is normally really good, but I'm just going to put this down to it not being your native language.

Yeah, that's a good way to defuse the situation

+1 that was really fucking insulting.

I considered replying

"Your command of logic is normally really good, ....."

or

"Your command of reason...."

but it really wouldn't make my point and it would just be me picking on the special needs kid of languish. 

[Viking]

Viking is right; trust no one 

I didn't say that or say anything consistent with that and I don't think that.

[merithyn]

Well on my planet there are three categories

- Untrustworthy
- Trustworthyness not yet established
- Trustworthy

BS'ing about your faith puts you in the Untrustworthy category, not BS'ing about your faith doesn't put you in the Trustworthy one.

That's what Fahdiz said.

Does this make it clear to you? This is one of the issues that comes up in every single religion flame war we have here. They are flame wars because I don't think my opponents make any serious attempt (with the exception of JR) to understand me before constructing strawmen and attacking them. The issue is the one of doubt and uncertainty, it exists in my "world" the tentative, the unclear and the unknown are real categories and the fundamental difference between me and the religious is that they put god in those boxes and claim certainty and think that I put not-god in those boxes and claim certainty. That is very specifically not the case for me.

It sounds like you're projecting this onto Fahdiz, rather than it being anything that he actually said.

[fhdz]

Well on my planet there are three categories

- Untrustworthy
- Trustworthyness not yet established
- Trustworthy

BS'ing about your faith puts you in the Untrustworthy category, not BS'ing about your faith doesn't put you in the Trustworthy one.

I never said it did.

Does this make it clear to you? This is one of the issues that comes up in every single religion flame war we have here. They are flame wars because I don't think my opponents make any serious attempt (with the exception of JR) to understand me before constructing strawmen and attacking them. The issue is the one of doubt and uncertainty, it exists in my "world" the tentative, the unclear and the unknown are real categories and the fundamental difference between me and the religious is that they put god in those boxes and claim certainty and think that I put not-god in those boxes and claim certainty. That is very specifically not the case for me.

Your "opponents"? Your opinion of yourself seems over-inflated. Do you have archenemies too? A nemesis or three?

Your position's been clear from the beginning. It was that position to which I called attention. I never constructed a strawman. If you want to persist in that fallacy you're more than welcome to, but no one else appears to be buying it.

[fhdz]

That's what Fahdiz said.

The thing is, Meri - even if he eventually understands it, I don't think he's capable of retracting it. Doesn't seem to be in his nature to admit a mistake.

Additionally, I think where Viking's running into a logical stumbling block is that he assumes an internal inconsistency is equivalent to "BSing about your faith". If everyone with an inconsistency *was* in fact *deliberately obfuscating* something about their faith then I could see how he might find those people untrustworthy. The simple fact of the matter is that in the majority of cases, they aren't deliberately doing that at all.

[Viking]

What baffles me right now that somebody is arguing that internal consistency of arguments is bad.

[Valmy]

What baffles me right now that somebody is arguing that internal consistency of arguments is bad.

The part that baffled me is a group whose agruments are not internally consistent at all are being held up by you as paragons of it.

[Eddie Teach]

Viking is right; trust no one 

I didn't say that or say anything consistent with that and I don't think that.

I know, you just delude yourself into thinking that some people like yourself are internally consistent.

[fhdz]

What baffles me right now that somebody is arguing that internal consistency of arguments is bad.

Excellent, I am glad to see you've decided to give us an example of a strawman. I assume that's what you're doing, right? Because you can't have just been complaining about strawmen and then turned right around and offered your own. Could you?

[Sheilbh]

What baffles me right now that somebody is arguing that internal consistency of arguments is bad.

Of course it is. Pluralism's useless if it's not internal as well. The ability to hold two contradictory positions is what makes us human and warped and worth knowing.

[dps]

Your command of English is normally really good, but I'm just going to put this down to it not being your native language.

Yeah, that's a good way to defuse the situation

+1 that was really fucking insulting.

I considered replying

"Your command of logic is normally really good, ....."

or

"Your command of reason...."

but it really wouldn't make my point and it would just be me picking on the special needs kid of languish. 

I wasn't trying to be insulting.  I'm trying to understand why you are complaining about fahdiz using the phrase "bar to trust" when its meaning is consitent with your discription of your position.  Garbon and meri (and fahdiz himself) don't seem to see any conflict between his characterization and what you posted, yet you do.  That suggests that the term, "bar to trust" doesn't mean what you think it means.  We all agree that you said you don't trust anyone whose positions aren't internally consistant, but that doesn't mean that you automatically trust someone just because their positions are internally consistant.  Everyone but you agrees that that means that for you, holding internally inconsistent positions constitutes a bar to trust. The alternative sto this being a language problem are either that grumbler has hijacked your account, or that you just don't know what the hell you're talking about.  I'd think either of those is more insulting than thinking that perhaps this is an English idiom that you don't quite get.

[crazy canuck]

I have not read the thread but I see who started it.  I am going to take a wild guess and say that by this point Marti has retreated the field but Viking is still hanging in there after making some kind of anti-religious remark.

[dps]

I have not read the thread but I see who started it.  I am going to take a wild guess and say that by this point Marti has retreated the field but Viking is still hanging in there after making some kind of anti-religious remark.

Actually, the ruckus is over the meaning of the term "bar to trust".  I kid you not.

[crazy canuck]

I have not read the thread but I see who started it.  I am going to take a wild guess and say that by this point Marti has retreated the field but Viking is still hanging in there after making some kind of anti-religious remark.

Actually, the ruckus is over the meaning of the term "bar to trust".  I kid you not.

You gotta love Languish

[Josephus]

This headline tweet from The Onion is actually funny:

Pope Reaches Out To Catholic Youth By Joining Twitter, Giving Up On Catholicism