It's Rove and Co. vs. Tea Party: Let the GOP civil war begin

[derspiess]

Come on now, Ide.  Don't walk it back.  Own it.

[Valmy]

And the GOP is a pretty crap "small government" party, but that is still their base.

Good point.

[Ideologue]

Come on now, Ide.  Don't walk it back.  Own it.

Well, the second part is probably what you objected to--that a GOP with more Randians and fewer rape boosters would be even more dangerous to left-wing politics--I certainly own.  At least until very recently, the U.S. was extremely right-tilted and one of the things keeping the dismantling wing of the Republican Party from seeing impressive electoral success was the visceral reaction many had and have to the socially retrogressive elements within the party.

[derspiess]

There's my guy

[Admiral Yi]

Tax-and-spend liberals.

Also, for better or worse, crypto-isolationists.

***

I'll admit to baiting a little bit with that.   But other than provocative characterization, what I said was pretty accurate.  The Dems have moved to a position where they are a centrist party with a disaffected left base from which they can nonetheless claim loyalty; the GOP is a rightist party with a base that is in large part obviously insane from which they have not so far escaped.

Tax and spend liberals all ditched their uniforms and melted into the population the moment Obama uttered his pledge in support of the Schumer doctrine.

Isolationists trend more right than left.

Methinks there's a tendency to overstate the enthrallment of the GOP to the looney right because of the recent electoral drubbing.

[Ideologue]

Tax-and-spend liberals.

Also, for better or worse, crypto-isolationists.

***

I'll admit to baiting a little bit with that.   But other than provocative characterization, what I said was pretty accurate.  The Dems have moved to a position where they are a centrist party with a disaffected left base from which they can nonetheless claim loyalty; the GOP is a rightist party with a base that is in large part obviously insane from which they have not so far escaped.

Tax and spend liberals all ditched their uniforms and melted into the population the moment Obama uttered his pledge in support of the Schumer doctrine.

I tried to look up "Schumer doctrine" and all I got that used the phrase verbatim were about USSC judges (something to the effect of Sen. Charles Schumer subverting the nomination process for W).  I'm not sure what you means by it, can you elaborate?

Isolationists trend more right than left.

You think?  The opponents of the war in Iraq were not, as a rule, on the political right (with, I concede, a fair number of exceptions).  I can't name many left figures in the past thirty years that were militarily interventionist, other than Christopher Hitchens.  The last American leftist I can think of that was seriously into facing totalitarianism abroad was Lyndon Johnson.  And at that point we're talking about a very different country.

Methinks there's a tendency to overstate the enthrallment of the GOP to the looney right because of the recent electoral drubbing.

Perhaps, although part of this is that the right base which has, since the 80s, had a pervasive influence over the GOP, gotten loonier--both in comparison to the exoteric culture, and in absolute terms as evangelicals and anarchists (sometimes the same folks) closed themselves off to that culture to live in a rightist echo chamber, so that bizarre, factually-bereft views (Obama is a socialist! class warfare! war on Christmas) became dogma.  So as they became more entrenched and uncompromising, so too did the GOP mainstream (i.e., center-right folks) have to either accede to them in some regard or compete with them at a disadvantage within the party.  2010 and 2012 showed that the former mainstream lost this competition, or else became co-opted.

[CountDeMoney]

Isolationists trend more right than left.

You think?  The opponents of the war in Iraq were not, as a rule, on the political right (with, I concede, a fair number of exceptions).  I can't name many left figures in the past thirty years that were militarily interventionist, other than Christopher Hitchens.  The last American leftist I can think of that was seriously into facing totalitarianism abroad was Lyndon Johnson.  And at that point we're talking about a very different country.

Libertarians are very big on isolationism. On the left, don't confuse isolationism with pacifism, Ide.

Methinks there's a tendency to overstate the enthrallment of the GOP to the looney right because of the recent electoral drubbing.

The looney right's always been there for 30 years;  except instead of blowing up abortion clinics, starting militia survivalist enclaves and creating Jesus-Is-Lord theme parks, they've just finally managed to become House Representatives.

[CountDeMoney]

I tried to look up "Schumer doctrine" and all I got that used the phrase verbatim were about USSC judges (something to the effect of Sen. Charles Schumer subverting the nomination process for W).  I'm not sure what you means by it, can you elaborate?

It's one of Yi's obscure invented references, like arcane nicknames for posters only he gets.  You're not supposed to know what it means, because you're not hip enough.

[dps]

Isolationists trend more right than left.

You think?  The opponents of the war in Iraq were not, as a rule, on the political right (with, I concede, a fair number of exceptions).  I can't name many left figures in the past thirty years that were militarily interventionist, other than Christopher Hitchens.  The last American leftist I can think of that was seriously into facing totalitarianism abroad was Lyndon Johnson.  And at that point we're talking about a very different country.

Most leftists may be opposed to overseas projection of our military power, but that doesn't necessarily make them isolationist.  They tend to want to engage other countries diplomatically.  Isolationists, though, want to largely ignore or disengage from the rest of the world, and are mostly on the right (or are apolitical--lots of them tend to not really care about anything that's not a local issue;  forget about the rest of the world, they're not even interested in the rest of the country).

]Methinks there's a tendency to overstate the enthrallment of the GOP to the looney right because of the recent electoral drubbing.

I think there's a tendency to overstate the degree to which they were drubbed.  They did keep control of the House, and even though they nominated one of the most uninspiring Presidential candidates ever selected by a major party, they did better against Barack Obama than they had done 4 years previously.  Granted, given the approval ratings of President Obama going into the election, they probably should have done better, but overall, it was actually a fairly close election.

[Admiral Yi]

I tried to look up "Schumer doctrine" and all I got that used the phrase verbatim were about USSC judges (something to the effect of Sen. Charles Schumer subverting the nomination process for W).  I'm not sure what you means by it, can you elaborate?

Not raising taxes on hard working middle class Americans.

[Ideologue]

Isolationists trend more right than left.

You think?  The opponents of the war in Iraq were not, as a rule, on the political right (with, I concede, a fair number of exceptions).  I can't name many left figures in the past thirty years that were militarily interventionist, other than Christopher Hitchens.  The last American leftist I can think of that was seriously into facing totalitarianism abroad was Lyndon Johnson.  And at that point we're talking about a very different country.

Libertarians are very big on isolationism. On the left, don't confuse isolationism with pacifism, Ide.

I dunno.  I think Dennis Kucinich speaks for a broader segment of leftists in regards to war than Ron Paul does on the right.

[crazy canuck]

I tried to look up "Schumer doctrine" and all I got that used the phrase verbatim were about USSC judges (something to the effect of Sen. Charles Schumer subverting the nomination process for W).  I'm not sure what you means by it, can you elaborate?

Not raising taxes on hard working middle class Americans.

What about the ones that dont work hard?

[dps]

Isolationists trend more right than left.

You think?  The opponents of the war in Iraq were not, as a rule, on the political right (with, I concede, a fair number of exceptions).  I can't name many left figures in the past thirty years that were militarily interventionist, other than Christopher Hitchens.  The last American leftist I can think of that was seriously into facing totalitarianism abroad was Lyndon Johnson.  And at that point we're talking about a very different country.

Libertarians are very big on isolationism. On the left, don't confuse isolationism with pacifism, Ide.

I dunno.  I think Dennis Kucinich speaks for a broader segment of leftists in regards to war than Ron Paul does on the right.

You're missing the point that CdM and I are making.  He put it better than I did, I think:  pacifism isn't the same thing as isolationism. 

[Ideologue]

I tried to look up "Schumer doctrine" and all I got that used the phrase verbatim were about USSC judges (something to the effect of Sen. Charles Schumer subverting the nomination process for W).  I'm not sure what you means by it, can you elaborate?

Not raising taxes on hard working middle class Americans.

Well, this is what I mean by American being right-tilted.  There are still people who would accept higher taxes for themselves, particularly if coupled with more progressive taxation overall, in exchange for better-funded or expanded government programs, but this does not play politically.  This is still the base of the Democratic Party.

This subsumes some of the groups you mentioned.  As for the others, professional women, for example, are not the base--they will not vote Dem no matter what, but rather, like I said, in opposition to Republican candidates that offend them.  And I don't think unions are much the base of anything anymore.

[Ideologue]

Isolationists trend more right than left.

You think?  The opponents of the war in Iraq were not, as a rule, on the political right (with, I concede, a fair number of exceptions).  I can't name many left figures in the past thirty years that were militarily interventionist, other than Christopher Hitchens.  The last American leftist I can think of that was seriously into facing totalitarianism abroad was Lyndon Johnson.  And at that point we're talking about a very different country.

Libertarians are very big on isolationism. On the left, don't confuse isolationism with pacifism, Ide.

I dunno.  I think Dennis Kucinich speaks for a broader segment of leftists in regards to war than Ron Paul does on the right.

You're missing the point that CdM and I are making.  He put it better than I did, I think:  pacifism isn't the same thing as isolationism.

OK, I misunderstood and should have been clearer myself.

When I said crypto-isolationist, I meant it as a smear on pacifists, as they might as well be isolationist for all the good they do.