The morality of city bombing vs. regular warfare in WWII

[Ideologue]

The ambit of the Carthaginian state (and other ancient states) is a pretty vague thing anyway.  Was Utica part of the Carthaginian state?  How about Barcid Spain?  Was Qart Hadasht a subordinate of Sur?  If so, was it ever part of the Achamaenid Empire?

In any event, Carthage the city, which can definitely be considered a statelike entity, got fucked up beyond repair.

[grumbler]

The ambit of the Carthaginian state (and other ancient states) is a pretty vague thing anyway.  Was Utica part of the Carthaginian state?  How about Barcid Spain?  Was Qart Hadasht a subordinate of Sur?  If so, was it ever part of the Achamaenid Empire?

In any event, Carthage the city, which can definitely be considered a statelike entity, got fucked up beyond repair.

No question, but I'd ask this:  what role did the women of Rome play in the destruction of Carthage?  If little to no role, other than as tradespeople and encouragers of the men, then I'd argue Rome wasn't fighting a total war.

[crazy canuck]

The ambit of the Carthaginian state (and other ancient states) is a pretty vague thing anyway.  Was Utica part of the Carthaginian state?  How about Barcid Spain?  Was Qart Hadasht a subordinate of Sur?  If so, was it ever part of the Achamaenid Empire?

In any event, Carthage the city, which can definitely be considered a statelike entity, got fucked up beyond repair.

No question, but I'd ask this:  what role did the women of Rome play in the destruction of Carthage?  If little to no role, other than as tradespeople and encouragers of the men, then I'd argue Rome wasn't fighting a total war.

I wonder if Sparta might be an example of a pre-industrial society that did engage in total war.  The sole role of men was to prepare for war and the sole role of females was to be fit enough to give birth to warriors -  or at least more females who could do so.

Others (Helots, slaves etc) did everything else.  But I suppose you and PDH would counter that excluding the Others from the war effort by definition means Sparta did not engage in total war.

[grumbler]

I wonder if Sparta might be an example of a pre-industrial society that did engage in total war.  The sole role of men was to prepare for war and the sole role of females was to be fit enough to give birth to warriors -  or at least more females who could do so.

If the women weren't doing everything they could for the war effort, then it wasn't total war.  Simply being mothers isn't doing everything possible.

[crazy canuck]

I wonder if Sparta might be an example of a pre-industrial society that did engage in total war.  The sole role of men was to prepare for war and the sole role of females was to be fit enough to give birth to warriors -  or at least more females who could do so.

If the women weren't doing everything they could for the war effort, then it wasn't total war.  Simply being mothers isn't doing everything possible.

If the definition is doing everything possible then has there ever been an occasion of total war?

[CountDeMoney]

If the women weren't doing everything they could for the war effort, then it wasn't total war.  Simply being mothers isn't doing everything possible.

What about making baby soldiers?  Sons avenging the fathers, and all that old school stuff?

[Razgovory]

If the women weren't doing everything they could for the war effort, then it wasn't total war.  Simply being mothers isn't doing everything possible.

What about making baby soldiers?  Sons avenging the fathers, and all that old school stuff?

Also chicks did a lot of the farming back then.

[grumbler]

What about making baby soldiers?  Sons avenging the fathers, and all that old school stuff?

That occurs in every war.  If that's all it takes to make a wara total war, then the term "total war" has no meaning.

[grumbler]

If the definition is doing everything possible then has there ever been an occasion of total war?

Germany after Feb 1942 v USSR after June 1941.

[Martim Silva]

I wonder if Sparta might be an example of a pre-industrial society that did engage in total war.  The sole role of men was to prepare for war and the sole role of females was to be fit enough to give birth to warriors -  or at least more females who could do so.

For the record, Spartan women were also trained physically (something that shocked the Athenians), had weapons training and were fully expected to fight if Sparta was attacked when most males were absent. Also - and unlike the other Greek cities - Spartan women did the hunting for food.

[Neil]

Strategic bombing is immoral because it is ineffective.

[grumbler]

For the record, Spartan women were also trained physically (something that shocked the Athenians), had weapons training and were fully expected to fight if Sparta was attacked when most males were absent. Also - and unlike the other Greek cities - Spartan women did the hunting for food.

For the record, I think you are vastly over-stating the abilities and position of Spartan women.  I have never seen anything that indicates that they received military training or fought in any wars.  Hunting was the most popular leisure activity of the Spartan men, though it is possible that women did some hunting when their husbands were off at war.

It is certainly true that Spartan women had more freedoms and power than did other Greek women, not least because of the peculiar Spartan customs of having them men dine and often sleep in the barracks rather than with their wives and families.  However, there is no evidence that Spartan women were mobilized for war - or, for that matter, that their lives changed much at all when Sparta went to war.

[dps]

If the definition is doing everything possible then has there ever been an occasion of total war?

Germany after Feb 1942 v USSR after June 1941.

Can't agree with Germany on this point--there were a lot of things that they could have done but didn't do.

[The Brain]

Strategic bombing is immoral because it is ineffective.

[grumbler]

Can't agree with Germany on this point--there were a lot of things that they could have done but didn't do.

Germany probably couldn't have done significantly more than they did starting in Feb '42.  Before that, they devoted less of a percentage of GDP to the war effort than any other major power, but ramped up military efforts to almost Britain's level (and above the USSR's level) starting in Feb '42.