So, about the Hobbit Movie

[mongers]

That said, "The Hobbit" was written in 1937

So, in other words, it's wasn't intended to be an allegory on Palestine and Israel, just interpreted by Europeans that way.  Roger that.

Do you know that Tolkien served in the Palestine mandate occupation forces in the immediate aftermath of WW1? 

[CountDeMoney]

That said, "The Hobbit" was written in 1937

So, in other words, it's wasn't intended to be an allegory on Palestine and Israel, just interpreted by Europeans that way.  Roger that.

Do you know that Tolkien served in the Palestine mandate occupation forces in the immediate aftermath of WW1?

So did a lot of Brits. 

But, by all means, do elaborate on how Tolkien's Orcs and Dwarves are metaphors for the Muddled East conflict regarding the Zionist Entity.  I really want to see how this example of boilerplate European antisemitism fleshes out.

[mongers]

That said, "The Hobbit" was written in 1937

So, in other words, it's wasn't intended to be an allegory on Palestine and Israel, just interpreted by Europeans that way.  Roger that.

Do you know that Tolkien served in the Palestine mandate occupation forces in the immediate aftermath of WW1?

So did a lot of Brits. 

But, by all means, do elaborate on how Tolkien's Orcs and Dwarves are metaphors for the Muddled East conflict regarding the Zionist Entity.  I really want to see how this example of boilerplate European antisemitism fleshes out.

Trolled.   

[CountDeMoney]

I hope you fall off your bike and impale yourself on a menorah.

[Martinus]

That said, "The Hobbit" was written in 1937

So, in other words, it's wasn't intended to be an allegory on Palestine and Israel, just interpreted by Europeans that way.  Roger that.

Do you know that Tolkien served in the Palestine mandate occupation forces in the immediate aftermath of WW1?

So did a lot of Brits. 

But, by all means, do elaborate on how Tolkien's Orcs and Dwarves are metaphors for the Muddled East conflict regarding the Zionist Entity.  I really want to see how this example of boilerplate European antisemitism fleshes out.

You do realize that we all were being tongue in cheek and making fun of it, right?

[CountDeMoney]

I hate all of you, like you hate the Jews.

[The Larch]

Was it just me, or was it hard not to see the orcs and goblins as, if not good guys, then at least rational?

"The Orc King wants to kill Thorin to wipe out the line that tried to invade his people's home and ethnically cleanse them from Moria."  Err.

I thought the Moria bit was completely unnecessary. As far as I'm concerned, Thrain lost his mind in the dungeons of the Necromancer and didn't die in battle against a white orc.

Thrain didn't die in Moria in the movie, it was Thror, Thorin's grandfather. The only thing that is said about Thrain is that he lost his mind during the battle and dissappeared.

[PDH]

Remember, for all their cruel acts, the Orc might just be a grunt bent under the weight of evil orders.  Tolkien once wrote,  "we were all Orcs in the Great War" about them.

[Queequeg]

Wasn't that an expression of regret about having created the orcs (and many other species and races) as beings incapable of redemption?

[Solmyr]

Tolkien did in fact say that he used many Jewish influences for the dwarves. Hell, they even speak a Semitic language.

[Viking]

That said, "The Hobbit" was written in 1937

So, in other words, it's wasn't intended to be an allegory on Palestine and Israel, just interpreted by Europeans that way.  Roger that.

That argument doesn't work for Tolkien since LOTR was so obviously about the Atom Bomb which it pre-dated by a decade.

[PDH]

Wasn't that an expression of regret about having created the orcs (and many other species and races) as beings incapable of redemption?

I believe it was more about whether they were innately evil or corrupt.  He is also supposed to have said to Christopher that Orcs fought on both sides.

[Admiral Yi]

I can see the moral ambiguity in Moria.  Do the Dwarfs have property rights in perpetuity because they dug it?  Or can the Orcs reasonably argue that the Dwarfs voluntarily surrendered those rights when they vacated it?

You know Faeliin, when someone says they're not familiar with all the relevant facts, you're supposed to supply those facts, not bite his head off for not knowing them.

As PDH and others have touched on, there is moral ambiguity throughout Tolkien's work.  Humans are better because they have good posture and are nice looking, not because they practice a more ethical brand of international relations.  Gondor conquered the shit out of the southern lands, but that's a laudable thing in the Tolkien universe.  Very Old Testament in that way.  You're the good guys not because of how you behave but because it was decided ahead of time you're the good guys.

And you can't really claim the various human governments have any more legitimacy than Sauron.  You never hear an Orc complaining about the leadership of the bad guys, or whether all the stakeholders are fully empowered.

[Viking]

And you can't really claim the various human governments have any more legitimacy than Sauron.  You never hear an Orc complaining about the leadership of the bad guys, or whether all the stakeholders are fully empowered.

+1 What I don't get is how in literature the bad guys managed to every single time to create a force of fierce well motivated determined characters which do their best for the common good by taking suicidal risks to prevent the good guy from achieving his goals while the good guys are perpetually distracted by alternative objectives (e.g. staying alive)  and are continually infiltrated by spies and traitors.

The orcs seem to be quite happy, well adjusted, well motivated and working for a common purpose. Can't say the same about even the most heroic humans.

[The Larch]

The thing is also that, in the books, the orcs didn't simply kill the dwarf king in battle, but actually captured him and subjected him to torture before executing him. Not exactly a goodwill gesture, that kinda made things personal for the dwarfs.