So, about the Hobbit Movie

[Queequeg]

I think that's partially due to natural connection between Orcs, Trolls and the Dark Lord.  Orcs are descended from Elves; they have a supernatural element that Tolkein's humans really don't, at least not naturally. 

[Tonitrus]

And you can't really claim the various human governments have any more legitimacy than Sauron.  You never hear an Orc complaining about the leadership of the bad guys, or whether all the stakeholders are fully empowered.

+1 What I don't get is how in literature the bad guys managed to every single time to create a force of fierce well motivated determined characters which do their best for the common good by taking suicidal risks to prevent the good guy from achieving his goals while the good guys are perpetually distracted by alternative objectives (e.g. staying alive)  and are continually infiltrated by spies and traitors.

The orcs seem to be quite happy, well adjusted, well motivated and working for a common purpose. Can't say the same about even the most heroic humans.

If Sauron had gassed six million Dwarves, would we still be having this argument?

[PDH]

It has to be remembered that Tolkien (at least in the Silmarillion and the LoTR) wrote from the point of view of the eventual victors.  He intentionally wrote fake histories/sagas about events that put things in, at best, a potentially skewed light.  Dwarves in the Silmarillion, for example, are scheming little backstabbers because the elves portray them this way.  The hordes of darkness in the LoTR might also have been highly inflated, it made the victory all the better.

History isn't always written by the winners, but history isn't always about facts either.

[Faeelin]

You know Faeliin, when someone says they're not familiar with all the relevant facts, you're supposed to supply those facts, not bite his head off for not knowing them.

Who's biting your head off? It seems directly analogous. 

[Admiral Yi]

Who's biting your head off? It seems directly analogous.

It would be directly analogous if the Indians had walked across the Bering land bridge and filled in the sea with dirt they had carried from Asia to create North and South America.

[Razgovory]

Well this turned stupid quick.

[CountDeMoney]

Well this turned stupid quick.

I'm going to go start a thread about Watership Down and pre-war Stalinism.

[Berkut]

Went and saw it with my son today.

It was well done, I don't understand the whining about the effects or the FPS or whatever.

It was long, and I say that as someone who thinks the longer LOTR movies are a distinct improvement over the movie cuts. This was long, and I am not sure that the length added to the movie. It was just...long.

I hate deus ex machina "saves", and it had a couple of those, which is annoying. But still, overall it was a solid film.

Some very excellent trailers. Big budget sci-fi FTW.

[merithyn]

I struggled to stay awake during the movie. It's a two and a half hour cock tease. When's the next one coming out?

My birthday next year.

[garbon]

That said, "The Hobbit" was written in 1937

So, in other words, it's wasn't intended to be an allegory on Palestine and Israel, just interpreted by Europeans that way.  Roger that.

Do you know that Tolkien served in the Palestine mandate occupation forces in the immediate aftermath of WW1?

So did a lot of Brits. 

But, by all means, do elaborate on how Tolkien's Orcs and Dwarves are metaphors for the Muddled East conflict regarding the Zionist Entity.  I really want to see how this example of boilerplate European antisemitism fleshes out.

You do realize that we all were being tongue in cheek and making fun of it, right?

That could work except for Europe's track record when "making fun".

[Queequeg]

I believe it was more about whether they were innately evil or corrupt.  He is also supposed to have said to Christopher that Orcs fought on both sides.

Seems to come out of the same regret.  I don't see any support of that in the text. 

[The Larch]

I hate deus ex machina "saves", and it had a couple of those, which is annoying. But still, overall it was a solid film.

I also though that it had a couple of them too many. Then when I came back home I checked how much additional stuff had been put there that wasn't in the novel and found that the two more annoying ones ([spoiler]Gandalf saving the dwarfs from the goblins and the Eagles saving the party from the orcs[/spoiler]) were actually in the book, so I guess that I might have a bit of a rosy coloured view of it.

[The Minsky Moment]

The Orcs are supposed to be cruel, inhuman abominations that arose from torture and dark sorcery by an evil power.  Any ambiguity here comes solely from the mind of the reader.

[PDH]

I believe it was more about whether they were innately evil or corrupt.  He is also supposed to have said to Christopher that Orcs fought on both sides.

Seems to come out of the same regret.  I don't see any support of that in the text.

Of course not - read my later post.  They are supposed to be histories/sagas-like written with a specific viewpoint.

[Queequeg]

The Orcs are supposed to be cruel, inhuman abominations that arose from torture and dark sorcery by an evil power.  Any ambiguity here comes solely from the mind of the reader.

This is the impression I got from the text.  I think it's hypothetically possible that someone with some Orcish blood-a hill tribesman or something-might have at some point done something for the cause, but the idea that an Uruk Hai let alone a full blooded Mordor Orc would flip sides doesn't strike me as something plausible in the text.

May be geekiest conversation on Languish in some months.