Elementary school shooting gun control pissing contest

[merithyn]

It isn't about a moral high ground. It's about having a relatively rational and informed discussion about a serious issue here in the states. People like you are as much the reason why nothing gets done as the NRA nutjobs. The worst part is that neither of you see yourselves as the problem.

People who want gun control in response to a mass shooting are as much part of the reason nothing gets done about gun control as the people who want nothing done about gun control?

I'm sorry Meri, but that's absurd.

Then you weren't following the whole thread. People who start screaming about gun control and policy changes citing a mass shooting with zero information on how those may have helped - or not - are no different than people screaming that if everyone had been carrying a gun none of this would have happened. They're screaming to hear their own voices, not to actually affect real and useful change.

[11B4V]

You can regulate the guns all you want. They are not the variable in the equation. We are.

they are a variable in the equation, just as the human beings committing these crimes.

I disagree. Guns either
1. Do nothing
2. when used, destroy what's in their trajectory

Bottom line. Humans are the varible.

[merithyn]

Yeah, sad and an unenviable position to be in.

Say if all schools had the equivalent of a sky marshal, one teacher/member of staff allowed to be permanently armed and ready to reach within the school buildings, leaving aside any entry guards the school might have, would that be any better  or would it just offer the opportunity for an additional once a decade tragedy  to be committed by that individual.

The schools here have a uniformed police officer on duty. I think it's just one for the entire district though. I seem to recall a story about one of the kids going for his gun once. I don't think they carry them in the school anymore.

Each of the middle schools and high schools have officers on campus. A student did grab for the officer at Riley's school's gun. E was stopped and arrested. The officer still carries his gun on campus.

[Jacob]

Then you weren't following the whole thread. People who start screaming about gun control and policy changes citing a mass shooting with zero information on how those may have helped - or not - are no different than people screaming that if everyone had been carrying a gun none of this would have happened. They're screaming to hear their own voices, not to actually affect real and useful change.

And people screaming in the immediate aftermath of a tragedy is the reason nothing is done about the problem?

I don't think so.

Furthermore, as I said upthread, I think screaming for gun control in the aftermath of a gun tragedy is a perfectly natural form of grieving and of coping with the situation. Like you said, let people grieve, then once there is a little bit of time and distance from the tragedy, start working on rational solutions.

[Jacob]

I disagree. Guns either
1. Do nothing
2. when used, destroy what's in their trajectory

Bottom line. Humans are the varible.

Well, if you have a person with a gun, intent on killing as many people as possible, you're looking at a tragedy about to happen.

If you change the intent of the person, as you suggest, then the tragedy is likely averted.

However, if you remove the gun from the person, then the magnitude of the tragedy is likely significantly lessened.

Both are variables.

[11B4V]

I disagree. Guns either
1. Do nothing
2. when used, destroy what's in their trajectory

Bottom line. Humans are the varible.

Well, if you have a person with a gun, intent on killing as many people as possible, you're looking at a tragedy about to happen.

If you change the intent of the person, as you suggest, then the tragedy is likely averted.

However, if you remove the gun from the person, then the magnitude of the tragedy is likely significantly lessened.

Both are variables.

Which is predictable?

[mongers]

You can regulate the guns all you want. They are not the variable in the equation. We are.

they are a variable in the equation, just as the human beings committing these crimes.

I disagree. Guns either
1. Do nothing
2. when used, destroy what's in their trajectory

Bottom line. Humans are the varible.

I don't disagree, but I think Grumbler has a point in the fearsome effectiveness of these modern weapons as they relate to the 2nd amendment. 
This guy might well have killed the majority of the children, not with an 'assault rifle' which incidentally seems to raise the temperature of any debate, but with a couple of modern highly effective semi-automatic pistols, things that seem a world away from even the Webley type revolvers my great-grandfather's generation had in the trenches. 

And I guess the same sort of weapons you guys have to be in an arms race with to outmatch them.

[Jacob]

Which is predictable?

I'm not sure what you mean by the question...

[11B4V]

You can regulate the guns all you want. They are not the variable in the equation. We are.

they are a variable in the equation, just as the human beings committing these crimes.

I disagree. Guns either
1. Do nothing
2. when used, destroy what's in their trajectory

Bottom line. Humans are the varible.

I don't disagree, but I think Grumbler has a point in the fearsome effectiveness of these modern weapons as they relate to the 2nd amendment. 
This guy might well have killed the majority of the children, not with an 'assault rifle' which incidentally seems to raise the temperature of any debate, but with a couple of modern highly effective semi-automatic pistols, things that seem a world away from even the Webley type revolvers my great-grandfather's generation had in the trenches. 

And I guess the same sort of weapons you guys have to be in an arms race with to outmatch them.

Yes

[merithyn]

And people screaming in the immediate aftermath of a tragedy is the reason nothing is done about the problem?

I don't think so.

I don't remember saying this, but then, you don't seem to care what I say or don't say, so it doesn't really matter.

Furthermore, as I said upthread, I think screaming for gun control in the aftermath of a gun tragedy is a perfectly natural form of grieving and of coping with the situation. Like you said, let people grieve, then once there is a little bit of time and distance from the tragedy, start working on rational solutions.

Fair enough. It's why I suggested that another thread be opened. The two forms of grieving were at odds with one another, I felt it most appropriate to separate them.

[11B4V]

Which is predictable?

I'm not sure what you mean by the question...

The gun isnt going to shoot by itself. The gun doesnt decide that.

[MadImmortalMan]

Any time anyone suffers some loss the feeling of powerlessness leads to an urge to control. Build structures in the chaos to keep out the bears and all that.

[Jacob]

The gun isnt going to shoot by itself. The gun doesnt decide that.

True enough.

To me that would suggest that removing the gun is the more predictable way to deal with these tragedies, as it is the more predictable variable.

[Jacob]

I don't remember saying this, but then, you don't seem to care what I say or don't say, so it doesn't really matter.

You said

People like you are as much the reason why nothing gets done as the NRA nutjobs. The worst part is that neither of you see yourselves as the problem.

and elaborated by saying

People who start screaming about gun control and policy changes citing a mass shooting with zero information on how those may have helped - or not - are no different than people screaming that if everyone had been carrying a gun none of this would have happened. They're screaming to hear their own voices, not to actually affect real and useful change.

That to me suggested that you were saying that people who scream for gun control and policy changes (with zero information) are just as much the reason why nothing gets done as the NRA nutjobs. Like I said, I think that's absurd.

If that's not what you meant, I apologize for misunderstanding you; however, it leaves me unclear what point you were making.

[Neil]

Which is predictable?

I'm not sure what you mean by the question...

The gun isnt going to shoot by itself. The gun doesnt decide that.

True, but if you have someone with a handgun, you have someone who is thinking murderous thoughts.  The whole point of handguns is to kill humans.