Elementary school shooting gun control pissing contest

[merithyn]

FWIW, the rifle was found in the killer's car, not in the school. The damage he did happened with two handguns.

[Kleves]

Shock, outrage and horror aren't a good basis for policy.

Perhaps not, but I think it's a necessary lubricant for overcoming political inertia/resistance in a case like this.

[mongers]

For the record, the reaction to the 1996 Dunblane primary school massacre was the banning of all handguns larger than .22 cal.

That may work for scotland, but the US..... eh. It would take a herculean effort just to collect and enforce at this point. Not to mention the 2nd Amend issue.

I don't doubt it, we all know, no change will happen as a result of this massacre. I just thought it interesting that it took us 18 months to decide on our response to that outrage.

And the response was a UK wide one, enacted by parliament, Scotland was only relevant because it was the scene of the crime and if he'd lived he'd have been convicted under Scottish laws.

[DGuller]

You appear to have misconstrued my argument.

If there is a tragedy in Syria, and the Israeli government uses that as an excuse for why Israel needs to keep the Golan Heights, that leaves a bad taste in my mouth.

The problem with your example is that Israel is taking advantage of the tragedy to press on their interests.  People who think that the current US gun situation is nuts, as well as the people who defend it, have no discernible vested interest.  They're just dismayed that the inmates have taken over the asylum, and their dismay is brought to the forefront when events like this occur.

[Queequeg]

Unfortunately, I think in a lot of these cases you have to strike while the iron is hot; waiting will dissapate the shock/outrage/horror that is necessary to actually effect change.

Shock, outrage and horror aren't a good basis for policy.

Necessary to wake people out of apathy.  There's a large part of this country that loves guns, but there's another part this just doesn't give enough of a shit. 

[Jacob]

You can fuck right off. You're not going to fix it this week. Let people grieve and get over the shock. Then, if you haven't forgotten about it in a few days we can work toward a rational solution.

Perhaps some people grieve and deal with the shock by discussing possible solutions, including gun control. It seems unfair to deny them that.

Why is "it's so sad and tragic, I want to cry" a more legitimate coping mechanism than "this is horrible, we should change these things so it doesn't happen again"?

In a few days when emotions are more settled (and if you haven't forgotten about it), you can work towards a rational solution. Impugning people's motives just because their coping mechanism differs from yours is probably not going to make a rational solution more likely, however.

[11B4V]

For the record, the reaction to the 1996 Dunblane primary school massacre was the banning of all handguns larger than .22 cal.

That may work for scotland, but the US..... eh. It would take a herculean effort just to collect and enforce at this point. Not to mention the 2nd Amend issue.

I don't doubt it, we all know, no change will happen as a result of this massacre. I just thought it interesting that it took us 18 months to decide on our response to that outrage.

And the response was a UK wide one, enacted by parliament, Scotland was only relevant because it was the scene of the crime and if he'd lived he'd have been convicted under Scottish laws.

True, I think the estimate of POWs in the US is 270 Million. I think it's higher.

[The Brain]

Oh, give us a break with this sanctimonious bullshit.  This is no tragic accident, this is a predictable and oft-repeated consequence of a tragically stupid policy we have with regards to guns.  While the radical gun nuts whose idiocy kills other people "respectfully think about the victims of this tragedy" so that they don't have to think about the murderous consequences of their policies, people like myself are thinking about the victims of tomorrow's tragedy.  Today's victims are already dead, tomorrow's victims don't have to be.

You can fuck right off. You're not going to fix it this week. Let people grieve and get over the shock. Then, if you haven't forgotten about it in a few days we can work toward a rational solution.

If you want to grieve then why are you f-bombing people in a pissing contest thread?

This started in the other thread and was put into this thread by Management(R).

Yes?

[Neil]

Shock, outrage and horror aren't a good basis for policy.

Perhaps not, but I think it's a necessary lubricant for overcoming political inertia/resistance in a case like this.

The problem is that there's no easy solution to these sorts of things.  Sure, you can ban guns like crazy and impose harsh penalties for possession, but in a country that has hundreds of millions of firearms on the loose, there's no chance of such a law being effective in the real world, and the sorts of people who would retain their guns would in general be exactly the sort of people who shouldn't have them.  Sure, you could create additional mental health resources and encourage communities to reach out to people who might be marginalized, but that would fly in the face of the last 30-40 years of cultural (and economic) evolution.

The simple truth is that in the US, short of turning public areas into fortresses, there is nothing to be done.

[Martinus]

Use of a tragedy as a spur to realistic discussion of realistic alternatives is fine, and even commendable.

I will admit to a certain amount of irrational rage today, but I don't think anything is lost by waiting until the dead are buried to start this discussion.

I agree with pretty much the rest of your post. I don't know how often these killers give off warning signs, perhaps it's more often than I thought.

Perhaps "irrational rage" is such warning sign?

[merithyn]

Necessary to wake people out of apathy.  There's a large part of this country that loves guns, but there's another part this just doesn't give enough of a shit.

The fact is that you flipped out about an assault rifle that wasn't even used. We didn't even know how many children had died by what means and by who's hand before you were immediately flipping out about gun control AS IF YOU KNEW ENOUGH TO HAVE AN OPINION ON THE MATTER IN THIS PARTICULAR CASE.

Well, you didn't, and it had the exact opposite affect than you wanted - for me, at least. I could care even less about gun control than I did before because of reactionary idiots like you. Your agenda was more important than finding out the facts of the situation. Your uneducated opinion drove home the point that you don't really care about what happened or why. All you care about is getting rid of guns, and what a handy little story to work with to that end.

The problem, as I see it, is the person doing the shooting and no amount of gun control is going to prevent them from getting the fucking things in the first place. We're a hunting nation, which means that there will always be guns around. We already deal with thousands of illegal guns all over the country due to drugs and fairly open borders. Screaming "gun control" isn't going to do shit about this situation. The guy in Portland stole the gun he used. We have no idea if this guy had his guns by legal or illegal methods.

You want the country to get on board with your program? Then show data - real, hard data - that a) it's possible to do in this country, b) that it would matter when it comes to these kinds of situations, and c) that the police agree that any of this is worth their time and energy.

[The Brain]

Unfortunately, I think in a lot of these cases you have to strike while the iron is hot; waiting will dissapate the shock/outrage/horror that is necessary to actually effect change.

Shock, outrage and horror aren't a good basis for policy.

I'll be sure to tell the Budapest Jews saved by Swedish Schutzpässe.

[Martinus]

Merri, shut up and stop being a half of the Languish Power Idiot Couple.

[merithyn]

Merri, shut up and stop being a half of the Languish Power Idiot Couple.

Fuck off, Marti. I haven't even talked to Max about this today. Believe it or not, I have my own opinions with my own ideas that I don't need to buy from my boy toys.

[Neil]

I don' think 'reactionary' means what you think it means.  Spellus isn't a reactionary.  He's an entirely different kind of lunatic.