What makes a consevative a conservative?

[DGuller]

Nice.  Defend your point or concede it.  Fish or cut bait.

That point, while not stated explicitly, flows naturally from the policies conservatives advocate.  They claim to be all for freedom, and yet they also advocate policies accentuating the income inequality (in the name of freedom, of course).  Rational people will conclude that conservatives don't see a strong link between income inequality and freedom inequality.

[Admiral Yi]

That point, while not stated explicitly, flows naturally from the policies conservatives advocate.  They claim to be all for freedom, and yet they also advocate policies accentuating the income inequality (in the name of freedom, of course).  Rational people will conclude that conservatives don't see a strong link between income inequality and freedom inequality.

Freedom inequality??  As in, Donald Trump is more free to buy a house in West Palm Beach than I am?  What are you talking about?

And any examples of policies conservatives advocate that accentuate income inequality?

[Razgovory]

It doesn't require specified granted privileges, just being the increased status, or do you believe we really live in a classless society?  I'm not sure where you get the idea that being upper class means you have to have certain privileges set in stone.  I imagine Trump does have command authority in his own company though.

Most of these are true statements.  Now the trick is to tie them back into the the original thesis that conservatism is the defense of privilege.

A good restaurant table and jumping the line are not privileges reserved for a certain group.  Anybody who slips the maitre d' a c-note will get the same treatment.

Defense of privilege and/or hierarchy.  You keep leaving out the hierarchy part.  Are there privileges to being wealthy?  Well, yeah.  Better access to education, better access to legal defense, better access to politicians.

[Admiral Yi]

Defense of privilege and/or hierarchy.  You keep leaving out the hierarchy part.  Are there privileges to being wealthy?  Well, yeah.  Better access to education, better access to legal defense, better access to politicians.

You seem to be using privilege (and hierarchy) to mean people can spend their money and buy stuff.

And I think I've already said this, but if not I'll repeat it: it's not just conservatives who think people should be able to spend their money and buy stuff.  The Shining Path, three Cambridge Marxists and seven vegan Marynoll nuns living in a yurt outside San Francisco are about the only people in the world who don't think this.

This is not what most people think of when they see the word privilege.

[The Brain]

I can't see Cambridge Marxists living in a yurt, sorry.

[frunk]

I can't see Cambridge Marxists living in a yurt, sorry.

I think it's the start of a joke.  "The Shining Path, three Cambridge Marxists and seven vegan Marynoll nuns living in a yurt outside San Francisco walk into a bar.  Something, something 12 inch pianist!".

[Razgovory]

Defense of privilege and/or hierarchy.  You keep leaving out the hierarchy part.  Are there privileges to being wealthy?  Well, yeah.  Better access to education, better access to legal defense, better access to politicians.

You seem to be using privilege (and hierarchy) to mean people can spend their money and buy stuff.

And I think I've already said this, but if not I'll repeat it: it's not just conservatives who think people should be able to spend their money and buy stuff.  The Shining Path, three Cambridge Marxists and seven vegan Marynoll nuns living in a yurt outside San Francisco are about the only people in the world who don't think this.

This is not what most people think of when they see the word privilege.

I don't care what most people think, and I'm not making a judgement on people who spend money, but money does open up avenues.  Do you agree with this?  Do you further believe that people who are talented, smart and hardworking are more deserving of money then those who aren't?

I'm not saying the "Aristocracy of talent" is necessarily bad, in fact it's for the most part a good thing.  It's a much weaker hierarchy then one of aristocracy or race, but it's still there.

[Admiral Yi]

I think I finally understand how you are using hierarchy.  Some people are taller, so there is a hierarchy of height.  Some are more attractive, so there is a hierarchy of beauty.

But if we're no longer talking about the usual type of hierarchy, the type that involves authority or deference, what exactly is it that conservatives are defending that differentiates them from everyone else?

[Richard Hakluyt]

I think the argument is that poverty can trump the theoretical freedoms of people subject to it. Whilst I think that there is a lot less poverty in places like the USA and the UK than some socialist types would like to think, I would agree that if one is worried about where the next meal is coming from then one is at an immediate disadvantage 

That is why I support the welfare state and the minimum wage, without them "freedom" can become irrelevant.

Trump, of course, is an orange shithead with sub-Boris hair............but then I'm not looking for a job with one of his companies.

[DGuller]

I think the argument is that poverty can trump the theoretical freedoms of people subject to it. Whilst I think that there is a lot less poverty in places like the USA and the UK than some socialist types would like to think, I would agree that if one is worried about where the next meal is coming from then one is at an immediate disadvantage 

That is why I support the welfare state and the minimum wage, without them "freedom" can become irrelevant.

Trump, of course, is an orange shithead with sub-Boris hair............but then I'm not looking for a job with one of his companies.

Yes, that was exactly my point, but I didn't bother making it because Yi went into his "show some evidence that rich have more money than poor" mode.

[Admiral Yi]

  So that's the reason.  I knew there had to be a good one.

Tricky's point is very different than the one you were trying to make.  His is about the irrelevance of freedom when one is lacking necessities.  Yours was not about the poor vs. everyone else, it was about how the rich enjoy more freedom than everyone else, which includes the poor and everyone else in between.

[MadImmortalMan]

Nobody "deserves" anything.

[Razgovory]

I think I finally understand how you are using hierarchy.  Some people are taller, so there is a hierarchy of height.  Some are more attractive, so there is a hierarchy of beauty.

But if we're no longer talking about the usual type of hierarchy, the type that involves authority or deference, what exactly is it that conservatives are defending that differentiates them from everyone else?

Not a great deal.  An "Aristocracy of Talent", is not by itself a bad thing.  There is some authority or deference since money provides these and it can be unfair at times.  Take OJ Simpson for example.  His talent brought him wealth, and he was able to use that wealth to beat a murder rap.  Your response indicates that you do believe certain hierarchies and inequalities are natural, which I suppose would make you a right winger.

The opposite would be the leftist who wish minimize or totally destroy social hierarchies.  This could be as radical as killing aristocrats and abolishing private property to simple graduated taxes and welfare.

I don't think we are too far apart on this issue.  I suppose the words "hierarchy", "privilege" and "inequality" set off the Yi defense since they have somewhat negative connotations.

[DGuller]

So that's the reason.  I knew there had to be a good one.

Tricky's point is very different than the one you were trying to make.  His is about the irrelevance of freedom when one is lacking necessities.  Yours was not about the poor vs. everyone else, it was about how the rich enjoy more freedom than everyone else, which includes the poor and everyone else in between.

Thank you for explaining to me what my point was.

[Admiral Yi]

Thank you for explaining to me what my point was.

Someone had to do it.