Weapons Question: Crossbows vs. Early Firearms

[The Brain]

I don't think the consensus is that gunpowder was cheap, but rather that it wasn't that expensive.

If I were to guess I would say that the cost of a crossbow bolt may not have been that much different from the cost of ball and powder. The powder probably gained more from mass production than the bolt, and the balls could be manufactured trivially easy by the gunner himself (no skill required). I don't know the price of lead.

Yeah, and given that I've read that the opposite was true, I wonder what people are basing this idea on.

Mostly the massive switch to gunpowder weapons.

[The Brain]

So how expensive was iron in Japan?

South of Hokkaido and most northern Honshu, Japan is pretty mineral poor.  I don't know exactly how expensive it was, but I don't think it was practical to have massive steel plate of the type seen in the west.

I am not convinced.

[CountDeMoney]

So how expensive was iron in Japan?

Less expensive than the US.  No unions.

[Malthus]

I don't think the consensus is that gunpowder was cheap, but rather that it wasn't that expensive.

If I were to guess I would say that the cost of a crossbow bolt may not have been that much different from the cost of ball and powder. The powder probably gained more from mass production than the bolt, and the balls could be manufactured trivially easy by the gunner himself (no skill required). I don't know the price of lead.

Yeah, and given that I've read that the opposite was true, I wonder what people are basing this idea on.

Mostly the massive switch to gunpowder weapons.

I guess tanks must be cheaper than horses. 

[Razgovory]

You do understand there is a difference between people who have a strong understanding of chemistry, metallurgy and physics trying to do something they know would work, and illiterate people who were frequently killed experimenting with this kind of thing?  Thor Heyerdahl, was big into experimental archeology which he used to bridge his wild theories with events.  It didn't make those theories anymore right.  Hence I'm wary of it, especially the vague reference that Viking referred to.

No, you don't understand experimental archaeology, theories, or methods used.  Using Heyerdahl as your reference point shows that.

Uh, huh.  Thank you, teach.  I guess Heyerdahl wasn't involved in experimental archaeology.  Thanks for telling me what I do and don't understand.  Viking saw it on a TV show, I guess that checks out.  I'm sorry that I wary of shit that Viking saw once on TV, I guess that 's really close to your fucking heart, otherwise you wouldn't have jumped down my throat for suggesting that Heyerdahl was involved in this.

[The Brain]

I don't think the consensus is that gunpowder was cheap, but rather that it wasn't that expensive.

If I were to guess I would say that the cost of a crossbow bolt may not have been that much different from the cost of ball and powder. The powder probably gained more from mass production than the bolt, and the balls could be manufactured trivially easy by the gunner himself (no skill required). I don't know the price of lead.

Yeah, and given that I've read that the opposite was true, I wonder what people are basing this idea on.

Mostly the massive switch to gunpowder weapons.

I guess tanks must be cheaper than horses.

Er, OK.

[Tonitrus]

So how expensive was iron in Japan?

Less expensive than the US.  No unions.

And if only they had Swedes to sell them some.

[Queequeg]

Japanese armour included types which had, basically, massive steel plates for breastplates. Where it differed was in how the armour was articulated (the Japanese used laces a lot).

Nanban-influenced breastplates that I previously mentioned, and they were generally made of iron rather than steel.  And again, they were 17th-century like single pieces of armor rather than full 16th Century plate.  I think there's probably also a technological component-I think it's probably a more than safe bet that the Japanese at the tail end of the Sengoku period were technologically on par more with the England of the English Civil War than the England that saw Henry VIII fight in one huge piece of steel at a tournament.  Japanese firearm technology and technique was superb. 

I am not convinced.

Why do you think the Japanese built fighter planes out of wood long after it had fallen by the wayside in the west? 

[The Brain]

Japanese armour included types which had, basically, massive steel plates for breastplates. Where it differed was in how the armour was articulated (the Japanese used laces a lot).

Nanban-influenced breastplates that I previously mentioned, and they were generally made of iron rather than steel.  And again, they were 17th-century like single pieces of armor rather than full 16th Century plate.  I think there's probably also a technological component-I think it's probably a more than safe bet that the Japanese at the tail end of the Sengoku period were technologically on par more with the England of the English Civil War than the England that saw Henry VIII fight in one huge piece of steel at a tournament.  Japanese firearm technology and technique was superb. 

I am not convinced.

Why do you think the Japanese built fighter planes out of wood long after it had fallen by the wayside in the west?

The European warrior elite wore silk and ate spiced food. My impression isn't that the Japanese warrior elite couldn't have afforded iron armor.

[Viking]

You do understand there is a difference between people who have a strong understanding of chemistry, metallurgy and physics trying to do something they know would work, and illiterate people who were frequently killed experimenting with this kind of thing?  Thor Heyerdahl, was big into experimental archeology which he used to bridge his wild theories with events.  It didn't make those theories anymore right.  Hence I'm wary of it, especially the vague reference that Viking referred to.

No, you don't understand experimental archaeology, theories, or methods used.  Using Heyerdahl as your reference point shows that.

He just doesn't get it. He managed to disagree with the premise that the existence of a thing proves that things of that kind exist. He has a fundamental problem with the scientific method itself.

Time Team's demonstration using the best knowledge within the field of experimental archaeology shows that building these early cannon was easy. Possibly within the skill set of the local cooper and doable within an afternoon per cannon.

[Queequeg]

That wasn't the only reason I gave though.  Japan rains all the time, and snow is very common in the north.  It's actually a pretty difficult climate, especially if you get high enough in the hills.  And you'd probably be wearing this armor a bit more than your warrior elite compatriots in the West.  I don't think iron armor was practical-which has a price component, obviously, but your armor isn't going to be any good if you're caught in a rainstorm in Tohoku of the far north and everything starts rusting. Imported iron is better spent on swords, which aren't exposed to the elements nearly as much and are not going to be substituted by ceramic. 

[Viking]

The European warrior elite wore silk and ate spiced food. My impression isn't that the Japanese warrior elite couldn't have afforded iron armor.

To the best of my knowledge Japanese armour was not primarily about stopping armor piercing projectiles like european plate armour was. Japanese armour was about stopping blade cuts and bladed slicing arrows while giving primacy to movement.

[Viking]

That wasn't the only reason I gave though.  Japan rains all the time, and snow is very common in the north.  It's actually a pretty difficult climate, especially if you get high enough in the hills.  And you'd probably be wearing this armor a bit more than your warrior elite compatriots in the West.  I don't think iron armor was practical-which has a price component, obviously, but your armor isn't going to be any good if you're caught in a rainstorm in Tohoku of the far north and everything starts rusting.

It's pretty damn wet in northern europe. Armies actually carted around heavy barrels full of sand so they could de-rust chainmail. Plate mail was even harder to maintain and required a whole bunch of retainers just to maintain the armor. Yes, weather is a big problem, that just makes the armor more expensive.

[Queequeg]

 

Actually, I guessed previously that your average Samurai would have to spend a lot more time in armor without the comfort of a large number of retainers or blacksmiths, but I'm not totally sure this is warranted.  I'm not even sure that the rate of violence between the Sengoku and the Thirty Year's War aren't comparable-Thirty Year's might even be higher. 

[Razgovory]

You do understand there is a difference between people who have a strong understanding of chemistry, metallurgy and physics trying to do something they know would work, and illiterate people who were frequently killed experimenting with this kind of thing?  Thor Heyerdahl, was big into experimental archeology which he used to bridge his wild theories with events.  It didn't make those theories anymore right.  Hence I'm wary of it, especially the vague reference that Viking referred to.

No, you don't understand experimental archaeology, theories, or methods used.  Using Heyerdahl as your reference point shows that.

He just doesn't get it. He managed to disagree with the premise that the existence of a thing proves that things of that kind exist. He has a fundamental problem with the scientific method itself.

Time Team's demonstration using the best knowledge within the field of experimental archaeology shows that building these early cannon was easy. Possibly within the skill set of the local cooper and doable within an afternoon per cannon.

You keep telling yourself that, sparky.