Feminism

[merithyn]

Well but that does not explain why lawyering is male dominated. And I have seen female M&A negotiators who were brilliant and completely in control of a room full of men with bloated egos (and not through "female wiles" or whatnot, but simply the ability to compromise).

That's definitely changing in the US. As was stated earlier in this thread, there are more women than men in law school today, by quite a bit.

[Barrister]

Except we're not talking about amazing, world-class mathemeticians.  We're wondering why women don't go into university-level computer science programs.  I think that qualifies as part of the "you can teach anyone who wants to learn how to do math problems".

I think you're going too far the other way.  When I was in college, many CS majors hit the wall at the point where they had to take discrete math, algorithms, and data structures courses.  While they were not rocket science courses, and I aced them without too much effort, a lot of CS majors were totally lost in them.  There is a pretty high floor on the math ability required to be a computer scientist.  It won't explain 10:1 gender ratio you see with math professors, but it will easily explain 2:1 ratio.

I was a geology major in undergrad.  In high school I aced every and all math classes.

I took 100-level statistics, and aced that as well (and statistics is just a specialized form of math).  For some reason I decided to take a 200-level stats course, even though it was an elective.  Holy shit the difficulty on that one was turned up to 11.  Only course I ever dropped.

[DGuller]

I think you're going too far the other way.  When I was in college, many CS majors hit the wall at the point where they had to take discrete math, algorithms, and data structures courses.  While they were not rocket science courses, and I aced them without too much effort, a lot of CS majors were totally lost in them.  There is a pretty high floor on the math ability required to be a computer scientist.  It won't explain 10:1 gender ratio you see with math professors, but it will easily explain 2:1 ratio.

But the same requirements are not there for computer programmers. Only computer scientists.

Don't you need a computer science degree to be a programmer

[Barrister]

I understand all of that. The question is why, not what.

There is extreme male brain theory - as exemplified by the arguable connections between Asperger's and mathematics ability.  I think that was what Malthus was driving at earlier.  All very speculative IMO but perhaps there is something to it.

My guess is that the broader disparity in tech/engineering/comp sci is a combination of conforming to adoloscent stereotyping and social bonding (younger girls are less likely to "get into" the techgeek or hacker subculture than younger boys) and - for individuals of a given level of intelligence and ambition - better perceived comparative opportunities in professions like law, medicine, or politics, where there is a greater concentration of potential same-sex role model/mentors, less risk of pack hostility, and (more speculatively) more room to take advantage of possible advantages in emotional intelligence or interpersonal interaction.

Well but that does not explain why lawyering is male dominated. And I have seen female M&A negotiators who were brilliant and completely in control of a room full of men with bloated egos (and not through "female wiles" or whatnot, but simply the ability to compromise).

But it isn't.  I'm a 12 year lawyer, and when I started out it was 50/50 male/female in law school.  In the years since it has tilted in favour of women.  Of our junior to mid-level lawyers we have more women than men.  It's only once you get up to the most senior ranks (think 50-60 year olds) is it dominated by men.

[Martinus]

Well but that does not explain why lawyering is male dominated. And I have seen female M&A negotiators who were brilliant and completely in control of a room full of men with bloated egos (and not through "female wiles" or whatnot, but simply the ability to compromise).

That's definitely changing in the US. As was stated earlier in this thread, there are more women than men in law school today, by quite a bit.

There are more women than men in law schools in Poland too. There are *many* more male partners than female partners in lawfirms, both in Poland and the US, too.

[merithyn]

Can we just pretend I said no?

Would you mean it?

derspeiss, I'm not insulted or hurt. Honest. I was simply curious, that's all.

[Martinus]

I understand all of that. The question is why, not what.

There is extreme male brain theory - as exemplified by the arguable connections between Asperger's and mathematics ability.  I think that was what Malthus was driving at earlier.  All very speculative IMO but perhaps there is something to it.

My guess is that the broader disparity in tech/engineering/comp sci is a combination of conforming to adoloscent stereotyping and social bonding (younger girls are less likely to "get into" the techgeek or hacker subculture than younger boys) and - for individuals of a given level of intelligence and ambition - better perceived comparative opportunities in professions like law, medicine, or politics, where there is a greater concentration of potential same-sex role model/mentors, less risk of pack hostility, and (more speculatively) more room to take advantage of possible advantages in emotional intelligence or interpersonal interaction.

Well but that does not explain why lawyering is male dominated. And I have seen female M&A negotiators who were brilliant and completely in control of a room full of men with bloated egos (and not through "female wiles" or whatnot, but simply the ability to compromise).

But it isn't.  I'm a 12 year lawyer, and when I started out it was 50/50 male/female in law school.  In the years since it has tilted in favour of women.  Of our junior to mid-level lawyers we have more women than men.  It's only once you get up to the most senior ranks (think 50-60 year olds) is it dominated by men.

This is not age based. This is rank based. There is a lot of junior or mid-level female lawyers in Poland too. But most of them do not make to a partner.

[merithyn]

Don't you need a computer science degree to be a programmer

No. You need a computer science degree to be a computer scientist. You can be a programmer with a degree in computer science, computer programming, English but knowledge in seven different programming languages, Physics, etc.

[MadImmortalMan]

Malthus veered off slightly, but that's Languish.

The point remains that it appears to be a cultural reason behind the lack of women in that particular field. That leads one to question how to change that, and if it should, in fact, be changed. Should we just allow the cultural pressures to stand, or is it worthwhile to try to shift them for a more equitable market for women?

I would go as far as possible without using coercion. Forcing girls into professions they aren't interested in is hardly a feminist thing to do, after all.

[MadImmortalMan]

Also that map looks like a map of obesity levels too. The fatter the bluer. 

[The Minsky Moment]

There are more women than men in law schools in Poland too. There are *many* more male partners than female partners in lawfirms, both in Poland and the US, too.

That is changing pretty rapidly.  And you also have to look at in house (corporate) counsel positions and senior prosecutorial slots where schedules can be a little more flexible.

[Barrister]

Well but that does not explain why lawyering is male dominated. And I have seen female M&A negotiators who were brilliant and completely in control of a room full of men with bloated egos (and not through "female wiles" or whatnot, but simply the ability to compromise).

That's definitely changing in the US. As was stated earlier in this thread, there are more women than men in law school today, by quite a bit.

There are more women than men in law schools in Poland too. There are *many* more male partners than female partners in lawfirms, both in Poland and the US, too.

I dunno man.  From where I sit by the time I retire law will be heavily female-dominated.  The fact that the partnership (and in particular the senior partnership) is male dominated merely reflects the gender situation of 30 years ago.

[merithyn]

This is not age based. This is rank based. There is a lot of junior or mid-level female lawyers in Poland too. But most of them do not make to a partner.

That would fall in line with the idea that it's a matter of time/work, and if women take time off to have a family, they "fail". That's why the Scandanavian countries are so far ahead of anyone else in the Western countries with gender equality. Men AND women get parental leave when a child is born. And, in general, it's not uncommon for men to stay home for a portion of the child's infancy.

[Martinus]

This is not age based. This is rank based. There is a lot of junior or mid-level female lawyers in Poland too. But most of them do not make to a partner.

That would fall in line with the idea that it's a matter of time/work, and if women take time off to have a family, they "fail". That's why the Scandanavian countries are so far ahead of anyone else in the Western countries with gender equality. Men AND women get parental leave when a child is born. And, in general, it's not uncommon for men to stay home for a portion of the child's infancy.

It's actually that plus the fact that women tend to choose more expert specializations (labour, antitrust, environmental etc) rather than more adversarial ones (M&A, litigation) and the latter are better rewarded. And there is the old boys' network.

You'd need to change the way the industry works. Right now the "objective" criteria are heavily rigged against women. And I'm not talking Poland as I work for a global lawfirm with decisions on partnership taken in the UK and the US.

[Martinus]

Malthus veered off slightly, but that's Languish.

The point remains that it appears to be a cultural reason behind the lack of women in that particular field. That leads one to question how to change that, and if it should, in fact, be changed. Should we just allow the cultural pressures to stand, or is it worthwhile to try to shift them for a more equitable market for women?

I would go as far as possible without using coercion. Forcing girls into professions they aren't interested in is hardly a feminist thing to do, after all.

The thing is that they are not intersted as this interest is not awoken in them during early education which relies on stereotypical gender roles. It's the same reason why people from poor backgrounds are less likely to enjoy classical music.