European views on American involvement in the Vietnam war.

[Berkut]

Saying the US actions in Vietnam were "Imperialist" is like saying that the Japanese internment camps in WW2 were "concentration camps".

Japanese internment camps were concentration camps. 

Of course they were.

But when you talk about concentration camps, what people think of are Nazi extermination/work camps.

But thanks for making my point for me.

Just because you can construct a definition that does not necessarily equate to  Nazi death camps, doesn't mean that the connection is not immediately made anyway, and turning around and claiming "Oh, but that wasn't the meaning of the term *I* meant..." doesn't change the fact that the term has a very specific and understood meaning and context to it.

Hell, the wiki page for "concentration camp" has a picture of a Canadian japanese internment camp.

The term concentration camp has become conflated with Nazi death camps, but it does have its own meaning, which is simply a camp where you lock up a lot of people who are deemed dangerous to the government (but have not committed any specific crime).

But the reality is that it has been conflated with Nazi death camps, so using it to refer to something else while pretending you aren't trying to imply a connection is a cheap rhetorical trick, just like saying that the US was in Vietnam was an "imperial" war and then turning around and saing "Oh, I don't mean imperial in the sense that the US was trying to create an Empire..." is a cheap rhetorical trick as well.

[crazy canuck]

But the reality is that it has been conflated with Nazi death camps, so using it to refer to something else while pretending you aren't trying to imply a connection is a cheap rhetorical trick, just like saying that the US was in Vietnam was an "imperial" war and then turning around and saing "Oh, I don't mean imperial in the sense that the US was trying to create an Empire..." is a cheap rhetorical trick as well.

Actually I think you have just made the case for people wrongly objecting to the word imperialism simply because it has a negative connotation that means something else.

[Syt]

The English "invented" concentration camps during the Boer War.

[CountDeMoney]

I have to protest against the misleading use of "Concentration Camp".

Of course you do.  Jew-hating Europeans are like that.

Auschwitz was not a concentration camp; it was a "Vernichtungslager" or in english, Extermination Camp. The Concentration Camp is where you gather a dispersed population in one place so you can control it. The conditions can be very bad and you can send the people from the concentration camp on to extermination camps.

[Berkut]

But the reality is that it has been conflated with Nazi death camps, so using it to refer to something else while pretending you aren't trying to imply a connection is a cheap rhetorical trick, just like saying that the US was in Vietnam was an "imperial" war and then turning around and saing "Oh, I don't mean imperial in the sense that the US was trying to create an Empire..." is a cheap rhetorical trick as well.

Actually I think you have just made the case for people wrongly objecting to the word imperialism simply because it has a negative connotation that means something else.

The only reason to insist on using the term is the negative connotation. It has no utility otherwise, especially in a discussion about the ethics and justification for government action.

There is no reason to use the term at all in this context - it imparts no information or relevance, except to add that negative taint. Saying an action is "imperialist" doesn't convey any actual information if you throw out the definition of "imperialist" to NOT include empire building. Instead you just end up with a definition that can be applied to anything.

Which is, of course, the entire point of using such sloppy rhetoric to begin with...

[Berkut]

The English "invented" concentration camps during the Boer War.

I doubt that - I am sure long before the Boer War government rounded up various groups and shoved them into aggregations that could be termed "concentration camps". They just invented the term to refer to those camps.

[Admiral Yi]

The Brits came up with the term.  They get copyright.

[CountDeMoney]

The Brits came up with the term.  They get copyright.

Wasn't it the activists through the British papers that coined the term, though?  I don't believe Lord Douchebag Kitchener did.

[Berkut]

The Brits came up with the term.  They get copyright.

I just said they invented the term - my objection was that Syt said they invented the concentration camp itself.

[Admiral Yi]

Wasn't it the activists through the British papers that coined the term, though?  I don't believe Lord Douchebag Kitchener did.

I'm pretty sure the authorities did. 

The term itself is pretty innocuous.  It's a camp where people get concentrated.

[crazy canuck]

But the reality is that it has been conflated with Nazi death camps, so using it to refer to something else while pretending you aren't trying to imply a connection is a cheap rhetorical trick, just like saying that the US was in Vietnam was an "imperial" war and then turning around and saing "Oh, I don't mean imperial in the sense that the US was trying to create an Empire..." is a cheap rhetorical trick as well.

Actually I think you have just made the case for people wrongly objecting to the word imperialism simply because it has a negative connotation that means something else.

The only reason to insist on using the term is the negative connotation. It has no utility otherwise, especially in a discussion about the ethics and justification for government action.

I disagree Imperialism is a good discriptive term and particularly as it relates to things like the more recent versions of it - cultural and economic imperialism.

Maybe you dont see it because you are within it.

[CountDeMoney]

The term itself is pretty innocuous.  It's a camp where people get concentrated.

So's a kibbutz, but I don't think there was much kibbutzing going on.

[Admiral Yi]

I disagree Imperialism is a good discriptive term and particularly as it relates to things like the more recent versions of it - cultural and economic imperialism.

Maybe you dont see it because you are within it.

I agree 100% that calling Vietnam an imperialist war is just as valid as the concepts of cultural and economic imperialism.

[crazy canuck]

I disagree Imperialism is a good discriptive term and particularly as it relates to things like the more recent versions of it - cultural and economic imperialism.

Maybe you dont see it because you are within it.

I agree 100% that calling Vietnam an imperialist war is just as valid as the concepts of cultural and economic imperialism.

Spoken as a true Imperialist.

[derspiess]

I think "imperialist" is just European talk for something they disapprove of.  Like that Morrissey guy who said the Olympics were being used for the "Empirical ends" of the Royal Family.  Presumably he meant Imperial.

That's pretty funny.  I missed that one.