The Great Debate Megathread! Black Lincoln versus whiter, richer Douglas!

[Queequeg]

That'd be good news, if true.  Obama's expectations would be low enough that just not struggling to breathe would be an improvement.  And Romney's a fucking retard when it comes to foreign policy.

[Baron von Schtinkenbutt]

Fact checks on the debate:

Summary
We found exaggerations and false claims flying thick and fast during the first debate between President Obama and his Republican challenger, Mitt Romney.

• Obama accused Romney of proposing a $5 trillion tax cut. Not true. Romney proposes to offset his rate cuts and promises he won't add to the deficit.
• Romney again promised to "not reduce the taxes paid by high-income Americans" and also to "lower taxes on middle-income families," but didn't say how he could possibly accomplish that without also increasing the deficit.
• Obama oversold his health care law, claiming that health care premiums have "gone up slower than any time in the last 50 years." That's true of health care spending, but not premiums. And the health care law had little to do with the slowdown in overall spending.
• Romney claimed a new board established by the Affordable Care Act is "going to tell people ultimately what kind of treatments they can have." Not true. The board only recommends cost-saving measures for Medicare, and is legally forbidden to ration care or reduce benefits.
• Obama said 5 million private-sector jobs had been created in the past 30 months. Perhaps so, but that counts jobs that the Bureau of Labor Statistics won't add to the official monthly tallies until next year. For now, the official tally is a bit over 4.6 million.
• Romney accused Obama of doubling the federal deficit. Not true. The annual deficit was already running at $1.2 trillion when Obama took office.
• Obama again said he'd raise taxes on upper-income persons only to the "rates that we had when Bill Clinton was president." Actually, many high-income persons would pay more than they did then, because of new taxes in Obama's health care law.
• Romney claimed that middle-income Americans have "seen their income come down by $4,300." That's too high. Census figures show the decline in median household income during Obama's first three years was $2,492, even after adjusting for inflation.
• Obama again touted his "$4 trillion" deficit reduction plan, which includes $1 trillion from winding down wars that are coming to an end in any event.

Romney sometimes came off as a serial exaggerator. He said "up to" 20 million might lose health insurance under the new law, citing a Congressional Budget Office study that actually put the likely number who would lose employer-sponsored coverage at between 3 million and 5 million. He said 23 million Americans are "out of work" when the actual number of jobless is much lower. He claimed half of all college grads this year can't find work, when, in fact, an AP story said half either were jobless or underemployed. And he again said Obama "cut" $716 billion from Medicare, a figure that actually reflects a 10-year target for slowing Medicare spending, which will continue to grow.

[CountDeMoney]

LOL, John Sununu was talking about the debate performance last night, said that Obama's performance was proof that that the President is "lazy".
Andrea Mitchell offers him a chance to walk it back;  "Are you actually calling the President of the United States 'lazy'?"
Big John: "Yes I am!"

[derspiess]

I just early-voted at the county Board of Elections on the other side of downtown.  Pretty sure I was the only person voting for Romney, if you know what I mean.

I did not vote a straight ticket-- I voted for a Libertarian in one race and I think in one of the non-partisan races the gal I voted for may have at one point in her life been a Democrat.

[derspiess]

LOL, John Sununu was talking about the debate performance last night, said that Obama's performance was proof that that the President is "lazy".
Andrea Mitchell offers him a chance to walk it back;  "Are you actually calling the President of the United States 'lazy'?"
Big John: "Yes I am!"

He does play a lot of golf.

[CountDeMoney]

He does play a lot of golf.

So did Ike.

[Valmy]

For some reason Ike PR people thought it was good that he be seen playing golf, I guess with his heart problems it was supposed to enourage the country he was still healthy and not dead or something.  But in actuality it means him playing golf is one of the most remembered things of his Presidency.

[CountDeMoney]

I just early-voted at the county Board of Elections on the other side of downtown.  Pretty sure I was the only person voting for Romney, if you know what I mean.

No, we don't know what you mean.  Please tell us.

I did not vote a straight ticket-- I voted for a Libertarian in one race and I think in one of the non-partisan races the gal I voted for may have at one point in her life been a Democrat.

Any interesting ballot initiatives?

[The Minsky Moment]

•Obama accused Romney of proposing a $5 trillion tax cut. Not true. Romney proposes to offset his rate cuts and promises he won't add to the deficit

Actually, no - as long as Romeny offers only unspecified "promises" about offsets, it is entirely fair game to point out what the impact would be if those pixies and fairies fail to materialize.

Now to be fair, Romney did raise an intriguing idea at the debate: an absolute cap of $25 or 50K on claimable deductions.  At face value that would create a kind of turbocharged AMT, and it would get him part of the way towards offsetting the fiscal impact of the rate cut.  But he undercut the idea by throwing out as a possibility without standing behind it.  In fact, I don't think he would do it because it would involve a big hit to the charitable deduction which is likely to upset key parts of his base and prove DOA in the House. 

Unless and until he is willing to stand by concrete proposal for offsets, IMO the only fair and sensible analysis is to assume that there won't be any.

[derspiess]

No, we don't know what you mean.  Please tell us.

No.

Any interesting ballot initiatives?

Issue 1 was a proposal to automatically have a constitutional convention every 10 years.  I have no idea what that would accomplish, so I voted no.

Issue 2 would change the redistricting process to mimic the "California Model", where judges appoint a 12-member board.  It's supposed to "take politics out of the process" but that's an unachievable goal.  I got into a fun argument with some Issue 2 activist at a folk/bluegrass concert a few weeks ago over this. Emphatically voted NO-- I darkened the box in so much I almost tore through the paper.

And I voted yes on both county renewal levies to supplement funding to old people, crazies, and drug addicts.  I'm getting soft in my old age

[Ed Anger]

Biden is going to get his ass kicked.  Jesus I'm depressed.

Your agony: delicious.

Don't count out uncle joe.

[CountDeMoney]

Issue 1 was a proposal to automatically have a constitutional convention every 10 years.  I have no idea what that would accomplish, so I voted no.

I think some kook throws that one in there in practically every state. 

Issue 2 would change the redistricting process to mimic the "California Model", where judges appoint a 12-member board.  It's supposed to "take politics out of the process" but that's an unachievable goal.  I got into a fun argument with some Issue 2 activist at a folk/bluegrass concert a few weeks ago over this. Emphatically voted NO-- I darkened the box in so much I almost tore through the paper.

Well, if the choice is between judges and boards, and letting the elected representatives do it themselves...well...

And I voted yes on both county renewal levies to supplement funding to old people, crazies, and drug addicts.  I'm getting soft in my old age

My, my.  He does have a heart.  And it's still beating.

[Martinus]

LOL, John Sununu was talking about the debate performance last night, said that Obama's performance was proof that that the President is "lazy".
Andrea Mitchell offers him a chance to walk it back;  "Are you actually calling the President of the United States 'lazy'?"
Big John: "Yes I am!"

Not only is he lazy, but he is also uppity.

[Habbaku]

[Kleves]

Michelle's a big lady.