Turning Points that Failed to Turn

[crazy canuck]

It's not very different from early Spanish trade with China however - once a year Spanish galleons would travel to Manilla where they would trade with Chinese traders.  I think they even couched it in terms of "tribute" and "gifts" as well.

Once a year is a much greater a frequency than what we are talking about.

The Zheng voyages averaged about once every 4 years, and even that required a massive expenditure of resources well beyond any commercial value.   Zheng's expeditions traversed already established routes where ethnic Chiense traders were already operational - they were basically imperial "show the flag" operations.

But the treasure ships themselves were meant to exert control.  Following in their footsteps were large numbers of other Chinese.

[Malthus]

Culture had a great deal to do with it.  The Feudal system required heavily armed men to control the local area who in turn required heavy horses that could support them.

Well feudal-esque systems were not exactly uncommon in the East either.  Besides this was a quality that goes right back to the Ancient Greeks.

Different types of systems.  In Western Europe the castle was built by local warlords to control the local population.  That control was maintained by a small group of heavily armed men - not enough food to have large forces.

In the East the system was different.  Castles were generally built to guard against the Northern barbarians and they were garrisoned by large armies of foot soldiers who were supported by an even larger army of peasants who could supply food.

I am not sure what your reference to Ancient times means.

He's refering to the "western way of warfare". The theory that western soldiers have always favored hand-to-hand fighting while eastern warriors like raining arrows on their enemies.

[Valmy]

Yeah yeah what Malthus said.

[crazy canuck]

Weren't Iberians pretty handy with light cavalry?  Though I imagine that the damage would be already done if it would be left to Iberians to fight the Mongols.

Good case in point - non feudal tribesmen who moved into Iberian during the collapse of the Roman Empire who later became Feudal in nature.  However not sure how effective they would have been.  The Muslims were able to kick in that door pretty easily.

[crazy canuck]

Culture had a great deal to do with it.  The Feudal system required heavily armed men to control the local area who in turn required heavy horses that could support them.

Well feudal-esque systems were not exactly uncommon in the East either.  Besides this was a quality that goes right back to the Ancient Greeks.

Different types of systems.  In Western Europe the castle was built by local warlords to control the local population.  That control was maintained by a small group of heavily armed men - not enough food to have large forces.

In the East the system was different.  Castles were generally built to guard against the Northern barbarians and they were garrisoned by large armies of foot soldiers who were supported by an even larger army of peasants who could supply food.

I am not sure what your reference to Ancient times means.

He's refering to the "western way of warfare". The theory that western soldiers have always favored hand-to-hand fighting while eastern warriors like raining arrows on their enemies.

Not sure what Ancient Greece has to with Feudal armies in Western Europe who didnt even know about Ancient Greece....

Unless of course Valmy is suggesting transmission of secret knowledge overtime which myseriously compelled warriors in the west to fight on heavy horses with  heavy armour and heavy weapons because the hopolites fought with heavy armour and spears

[garbon]

Culture had a great deal to do with it.  The Feudal system required heavily armed men to control the local area who in turn required heavy horses that could support them.

Well feudal-esque systems were not exactly uncommon in the East either.  Besides this was a quality that goes right back to the Ancient Greeks.

Different types of systems.  In Western Europe the castle was built by local warlords to control the local population.  That control was maintained by a small group of heavily armed men - not enough food to have large forces.

In the East the system was different.  Castles were generally built to guard against the Northern barbarians and they were garrisoned by large armies of foot soldiers who were supported by an even larger army of peasants who could supply food.

I am not sure what your reference to Ancient times means.

He's refering to the "western way of warfare". The theory that western soldiers have always favored hand-to-hand fighting while eastern warriors like raining arrows on their enemies.

Not sure what Ancient Greece has to with Feudal armies in Western Europe who didnt even know about Ancient Greece....

Unless of course Valmy is suggesting transmission of secret knowledge overtime which myseriously compelled warriors in the west to fight on heavy horses with  heavy armour and heavy weapons because the hopolites fought with heavy armour and spears

I'm not sure that's a sensible attack given that Rome also had hoplites and was certainly influence by Greece.

Anyway, I think Valmy was just trying to look at a meta narrative of people in Europe not preferring light cavalry.

[crazy canuck]

I'm not sure that's a sensible attack given that Rome also had hoplites and was certainly influence by Greece.

Anyway, I think Valmy was just trying to look at a meta narrative of people in Europe not preferring light cavalry.

That justification doesnt make much sense since late Roman Empire started to move to light cavalry units more than they had done in the past.

[Malthus]

Not sure what Ancient Greece has to with Feudal armies in Western Europe who didnt even know about Ancient Greece....

Unless of course Valmy is suggesting transmission of secret knowledge overtime which myseriously compelled warriors in the west to fight on heavy horses with  heavy armour and heavy weapons because the hopolites fought with heavy armour and spears

I'm not a big fan of the theory myself, but Valmy isn't to blame for inventing it. That would be Victor Davis Hanson. 

[garbon]

I'm not sure that's a sensible attack given that Rome also had hoplites and was certainly influence by Greece.

Anyway, I think Valmy was just trying to look at a meta narrative of people in Europe not preferring light cavalry.

That justification doesnt make much sense since late Roman Empire started to move to light cavalry units more than they had done in the past.

Hey I'm not the one supporting said meta-narrative. I don't even like those.

[Valmy]

That justification doesnt make much sense since late Roman Empire started to move to light cavalry units more than they had done in the past.

They still used shock tactics though.

[Valmy]

Not sure what Ancient Greece has to with Feudal armies in Western Europe who didnt even know about Ancient Greece....

Unless of course Valmy is suggesting transmission of secret knowledge overtime which myseriously compelled warriors in the west to fight on heavy horses with  heavy armour and heavy weapons because the hopolites fought with heavy armour and spears

I said Western Armies tended to prefer shock tactics and hand to hand combat.  I was speculating if these similarities throughout history were some sort of cultural thing reflecting cultural ties through centuries or a result of European geography.

[Queequeg]

Which is demonstrates another of an inherent weakness of the Mongol empire - their vulnerability to an opponent who could fight fire with fire.

The Khara Khitai, Khwarezmian, Naiman, Jin, Rum Seljuks, Alans and the Cumans were all more likely more talented horsemen than the Mameluks.  All of them were annihilated and incorporated in equal measure. 

Also, the Mamluks were as likely to be Slavs or Caucasians as Steppe Turks. 

[Valmy]

Yeah there is really no evidence horse archers were some sort of achilles heel of the Mongols.  They knew how to fight their own and were much more disciplined and organized than their peers...at least at their height.

[Valmy]

I'm not a big fan of the theory myself, but Valmy isn't to blame for inventing it. That would be Victor Davis Hanson. 

Ah good so you know what I am talking about.  What about it do you find unconvincing and if it was a geographical thing wouldn't that make sense?

[garbon]

if it was a geographical thing wouldn't that make sense?

Isn't the geography (and climate) of Europe rather varied?