The China Thread

[grumbler]

Ok so, in essence, if somebody in power is working toward selfish personal needs instead of the common good, they cannot possibly be labelled socialist? Gotcha.

You are arguing with Tyr.  Why?  You won't learn anything, and he can't.

[Valmy]

Ok so, in essence, if somebody in power is working toward selfish personal needs instead of the common good, they cannot possibly be labelled socialist? Gotcha.

It is kind of like the right wingers here who seem to equate right =  freedom, left = authoritarianism.

[Josquius]

Ok so, in essence, if somebody in power is working toward selfish personal needs instead of the common good, they cannot possibly be labelled socialist? Gotcha.

That's not what I said.
Eastern block countries were socialist dictatorships.
It was the dictatorship part of that equation that was the cause of the majority of the bad shit that went on there.
The socialist part does just fine in a democratic system.
Socialism = bad because the Eastern block was bad is a massive logical leap that ignores one of the key points of those regimes.

But yeah. All going way off on a big tangent. China is increasingly fascist not because its bad and communists can't be bad (yes, far more the right wingers arguing the opposite of that one) but the form it's dictatorship is taking and the policies it is pursuing. Its a particularly black flavour of dictatorship, very distinct from maosim.

[Threviel]

The thing is that a lot of leftists often argue that every failed communist experiment wasn't communist, it was fascist. Oh no, the Soviet Union wasn't communist, they didn't do communism correct, when we do it we will do it correct.

I agree with that, but we aren't talking about 1970s China, which was clearly still "Left" and a lot worse then today's China.  The issue isn't about making everything good "Left" and everything bad "Right"  It's about the absurdity of labelling as "Communist" a competitive market economy with international stock and commodity exchanges, where the private sector generates 60% of the national GDP.

The Stalinist regime may not what Marx had in mind but it was clearly still a Communist regime and a lot more than lip service was paid to Marxist-Leninist doctrine.  The present day Chinese system is very different.

All good points. China is difficult to categorise. What about this then: China is economically very similar to fascism, but politically more like a communist state.

Of course, totalitarian all of them, but CCP at least talks like communists, not like fascists.

[grumbler]

China isn't much like a fascist state economically at all; fascist states had large command economy sectors, which China does not.

What is somewhat similar to fascism in China today is Xi's "Chinese Dream" and "National Rejuvenation" concepts, that sound a lot to me like Mussolini (but with more individualism).  Xi doesn't talk about the withering away of the state at all, as far as I can see, but he does mention social justice, which is definitely something leftists advance and rightists sneer at.

[The Minsky Moment]

China isn't much like a fascist state economically at all; fascist states had large command economy sectors, which China does not.

?

The SOEs control what used to called the "commanding heights" industries - energy, transport, communications, media, and finance.  Three of the top 5 Fortune 500 global companies are Chinese SOEs.  Chinese private companies, while producing the majority of national GDP, are focused on less strategic areas like retail and e-commerce, real estate, healthcare, entertainment, and education.  But even there, private ownership is definitively in a subordinate position, as the owners and shareholders of private companies in the education sector recently learned.  Also some companies that are nominally private, such as Huawei, are operated and controlled by executives with a state sector background and are generally understood to coordinate closely with the state.  The comparison to the close relationship between the state and 30s era private German concerns such as VW, Krupp, IG Farben, and Siemens seems apt.

[Josquius]

I'm not so sure that state owned industries are too typical of fascism. More standard is an incestuous relationship between private companies and government.
The nazis for instance were really big on privatisation of industries.... But then it was the duty of corporations to serve the state and maintain a very close relationship.
It's notable this kind of setup though typical of fascism is also seen in modern South Korea and has a long history in Japan-the zaibatsu were broken up after the war but Japan Inc continues.

[grumbler]

I don't know of anyone who argues that state-owned industries are typical of fascism, so arguing that they weren't seems to be just stating a truism.

[The Minsky Moment]

State ownership was significant in Italy, where the IRI was formed and acquired controlling stakes in key industries.

In Germany, the Nazis tended to favor private ownership on paper, but channeled ownership stakes to favored industrialists that supported the government and cooperated with the tight regulatory regime and the new state fiscal policy.  Putin's Russia would be a modern point of comparison.

[grumbler]

State ownership was significant in Italy, where the IRI was formed and acquired controlling stakes in key industries.

In Germany, the Nazis tended to favor private ownership on paper, but channeled ownership stakes to favored industrialists that supported the government and cooperated with the tight regulatory regime and the new state fiscal policy.  Putin's Russia would be a modern point of comparison.

I had been under the impression that the IRI refloated businesses after rescuing them, but this does not seem to be typical of the IRI.

Nazi Germany's economy was largely a command economy, with private ownership.  Sort of the reverse of today's China.

[DGuller]

I'm seeing a lot articles coming out about China doing something, and thinking "hmm, that's actually not stupid at all".  For example, cracking down on crypto nonsense, cracking down on engagement algorithms that promote addiction, and now cracking down on "996" work culture.

What's your take on this, Jacob?  I'm I getting taken in by PR and propaganda, or is China actually putting their bureaucratic despotism to good use from time to time?

[Jacob]

I'm seeing a lot articles coming out about China doing something, and thinking "hmm, that's actually not stupid at all".  For example, cracking down on crypto nonsense, cracking down on engagement algorithms that promote addiction, and now cracking down on "996" work culture.

What's your take on this, Jacob?  I'm I getting taken in by PR and propaganda, or is China actually putting their bureaucratic despotism to good use from time to time?

China is cracking down on crypto nonsense? That's good to hear - since last I heard they're one of the main drivers of mining. Honestly, though, I expect that any cracking down on it is based on "this is outside the control of the party"/ "this financially benefits someone other than Xi's clique in the party" rather than anything else. Xi seems hellbent on establishing party (and his own) supremacy, and crypto is something he can't control well.

Cracking down on 996 work culture... I'm skeptical that has any kind of legs at all. 996 is driven by pretty deep structural and cultural factors, and a simple party directive is not going to change much.

But, I mean it doesn't mean they can't occasionally accidentally put bureaucratic despotism to uses that sounds like it might be good... but I'm going to remain pretty skeptical.

[Sheilbh]

China is cracking down on crypto nonsense? That's good to hear - since last I heard they're one of the main drivers of mining. Honestly, though, I expect that any cracking down on it is based on "this is outside the control of the party"/ "this financially benefits someone other than Xi's clique in the party" rather than anything else. Xi seems hellbent on establishing party (and his own) supremacy, and crypto is something he can't control well.

The official rationale was energy/climate and that this was basically a really wasteful way of using energy given China's net zero commitments - and it seems to have made some headway on that front - my understanding is that it's now falling quite strongly:


Separately the Chinese Central Bank is looking at digital currency - but that is just a different type of fiat currency I suppose so not really similar to crypto.

The one I find really interesting is the crackdown on "chaotic" fan culture:

Celebrities Disappear From Internet as China Moves Against Fan Culture

China announced further steps to control celebrity fan culture, which regulators say has become "chaotic." The moves came as one of China's most prominent stars Vicki Zhao Wei was scrubbed from the internet and another star, female actor Zheng Shuang was punished for a tax scandal.

The Cyberspace Administration of China on Friday issued a pair of connected notices. In one, it said that it would take punitive action against the spread of harmful information in celebrity fan groups. Discussion channels may be shut down.

In the second move, the CAC announced draft regulations for internet recommendation algorithms. It wants to halt algorithms that encourage users to spend large amounts of money or spend money in a way that "may disrupt public order." Internet companies must make it harder to create fake user accounts and make it easier for users to turn off recommendation systems.

Recommendation algorithms are used by home shopping services, news sites, social media and by streaming platforms. The draft is open to discussion until mid-September.

Chinese regulators, across a multitude of ministries and departments, are in the midst of a months-long campaign to reign in the country's tech giants. They regard them as having grown too big, having infringed on user privacy and encouraged vulgarity, individualism and pop culture.

Celebrities have been especially targeted by the crackdown. Superstar singer-actor Kris Wu has been arrested following rape allegations, and, as a consequence, his internet presence has been largely deleted.

Another star, Zhang Zhehan who is accused of hurting Chinese feelings after posing for photos at Tokyo's notorious Yasukuni Shrine recently saw his films and TV series deleted by broadcasters and streaming platforms. The state-owned Global Times newspaper reported that Zhang has been "forced out of the entertainment industry."

Now, Variety's sister publication WWD reports that Zhao, a film and TV star who has appeared in "Shaolin Soccer" and "Red Cliff," is also being banished. Her name is being edited out of the 1990s-made and still hugely popular TV series "My Fair Princess" by video platforms including Tencent Video, iQiyi and Youku.

WWD says it is unclear why Zhao, the face of Italian fashion brand Fendi in China, is currently being canceled. It speculates that her fate may be linked to ongoing investigations into Zhou Jiangyong, a senior official in Hangzhou, the city that is home to Alibaba. Zhao is also close to Jack Ma, the co-founder of Alibaba who has endured nearly a year of state-orchestrated attacks after publicly criticizing China's financial regulatory system.

Zheng, who was at the center of a storm over surrogate babies earlier in the year, has now been fined RMB299 million ($46 million) over unpaid income tax liabilities and excessive earnings. Though little known overseas, the 29-year-old Zeng is one of the highest paid actresses in the world. She was reportedly paid $24.6 million (RMB160 million) for 77 days of filming — $320,000 a day — for her role in the upcoming 50-episode series "A Chinese Ghost Story."

Being brought to heel over tax payments has clear echoes of the 2017 downfall of Fan Bingbing, China's biggest female star.

Fan's $100 million fines led to a film and TV production hiatus as companies rushed to clean up their tax affairs, rewrite contracts with performers and halt the use of domestic tax havens. China's authorities have previously also sought to cap celebrity pay packages for TV series, handed out exemplary punishments to celebrities who have used prostitutes or drugs, and threatened others with lifetime bans.

Streaming platform iQiyi this week said that it had has cancelled plans for talent contest shows, which create celebrities. The company's CEO Gong Yu said that the shows are "unhealthy."

The latest crackdowns on tech and celebrities appear also have a political context. The Communist Party of China may be eliminating all other sources of power and influence in civil society – wealth, technology, media and fame – other than its own.

Zhao has flirted with trouble in the past. In 2018, she and her husband were banned from securities markets for five years after giving false information in a corporate takeover. She has also criticized for amassing a fortune reported to be over $1 billion, in part through her early purchase of shares in film company Alibaba Pictures on the personal recommendation of Ma. In 2016, she was accused of supporting Taiwanese separatism by appearing in a film with Leon Dai (and in which Alibaba Pictures was a minority investor), while in 2001 she was severely criticized for wearing a dress that appeared to be made from a Japanese military flag.

Relatedly China has also launched a privacy law which is sort of similar to European privacy laws (with a broad get out for things "required by law" - which also exists in Europe but there are more controls). Until now China's regulation of the tech sector overwhelmingly focused on cybersecurity - which is still a big issue and why Didi have had to cancel their expansion. A new focus on more nebulous things like privacy or chaos is...interesting from a state like China.

[viper37]

It is kind of like the right wingers here who seem to equate right =  freedom, left = authoritarianism.

It used to be the case.  Back in the good old days, when boys were boys and girls were girls.  Nowadays, everything is so confused

[Syt]

https://www.reuters.com/world/china/china-rolls-out-new-rules-minors-online-gaming-xinhua-2021-08-30/

Three hours a week: Play time's over for China's young video gamers

SHANGHAI, Aug 30 (Reuters) - China has forbidden under-18s from playing video games for more than three hours a week, a stringent social intervention that it said was needed to pull the plug on a growing addiction to what it once described as "spiritual opium".

The new rules, published on Monday, are part of a major shift by Beijing to strengthen control over its society and key sectors of its economy, including tech, education and property, after years of runaway growth.

The restrictions, which apply to any devices including phones, are a body blow to a global gaming industry that caters to tens of millions of young players in the world's most lucrative market.

They limit under-18s to playing for one hour a day - 8 p.m. to 9 p.m. - on only Fridays, Saturdays and Sundays, according to the Xinhua state news agency. They can also play for an hour, at the same time, on public holidays.

The rules from the National Press and Publication Administration (NPPA) regulator coincide with a broader clampdown by Beijing against China's tech giants, such as Alibaba Group (9988.HK) and Tencent Holdings (0700.HK).

The campaign to prevent what state media has described as the "savage growth" of some companies has wiped tens of billions of dollars off shares traded at home and abroad. read more

"Teenagers are the future of our motherland," Xinhua quoted an unnamed NPPA spokesperson as saying. "Protecting the physical and mental health of minors is related to the people's vital interests, and relates to the cultivation of the younger generation in the era of national rejuvenation."

Gaming companies will be barred from providing services to minors in any form outside the stipulated hours and must ensure they have put real-name verification systems in place, said the regulator, which oversees the country's video games market.

Previously, China had limited the length of time under-18s could play video games to 1.5 hours on any day and three hours on holidays under 2019 rules.

The new rules swiftly became one of the most discussed topics on Weibo, China's answer to Twitter. Some users expressed support for the measures while others said they were surprised at how drastic the rules were.

"This is so fierce that I'm utterly speechless," said one comment that received over 700 likes.

Others expressed doubt that the restrictions could be enforced. "They will just use their parents' logins, how can they control it?" asked one.

GAMING SHARES ZAPPED

The Chinese games market will generate an estimated $45.6 billion of revenue in 2021, ahead of the United States, according to analytics firm Newzoo.

The crackdown reverberated around the world.

Shares in Amsterdam-listed tech investment company Prosus (PRX.AS), which holds a 29% stake in Chinese social media and video games group Tencent, were down 1.45%, while European online video gaming stocks Ubisoft (UBIP.PA) and Embracer Group (EMBRACb.ST) each fell over 2%.

Shares of Chinese gaming stocks slid in pre-market trading in the United States with NetEase falling over 6% and mobile game publisher Bilibili dropping 3%.

About 62.5% of Chinese minors often play games online, and 13.2% of underage mobile game users play mobile games for more than two hours a day on working days, according to state media.

Gaming companies have been on edge in recent weeks as state media criticised gaming addiction among young people, signalling a regulatory crackdown.

A state media outlet described online games as "spiritual opium" this month and cited Tencent's "Honor of Kings" in an article that called for more curbs on the industry, battering shares in the world's largest gaming firm by revenue.

Tencent later announced new measures to reduce the time and money children spend on games, starting with Honor of Kings. Its president also said it was working with regulators to explore ways in which the total amount of time minors spent on gaming could be capped across all titles in the industry.

The NPPA regulator told Xinhua it would increase the frequency and intensity of inspections for online gaming companies to ensure they were putting in place time limits and anti-addiction systems.

It also said that parents and teachers played key roles in curbing gaming addiction.