The China Thread

[PJL]

Sounds like the Chinese are starting to do the own decoupling trade wise...

[Barrister]

I wonder why we haven't seen any Chinese car manufacturers try to expand to north america yet (I mean - other than Volvo).

[grumbler]

It's the thing that happens when a manufacturing sector matures in a country with cheaper labor.  Japanese cars used to be cheap crap.  Then they became the best buy.  Then they priced their cars where they should be.

[Jacob]

I wonder why we haven't seen any Chinese car manufacturers try to expand to north america yet (I mean - other than Volvo).

Yeah I'm wondering the same...

I assume some sort of protectionism, but it's just an assumption.

[Tonitrus]

I think the Polestar 2 is damn fine looking car/EV...styling-wise.  But being PRC-made, it instinctively goes to the bottom of my list. 

[Jacob]

Yeah on the flipside in addition to the political implications there are safety concerns. I know of at least one case where someone died from a BYD spontaneously exploding.

[Zanza]

So apparently German car makers are losing significant market share to Chinese companies in China... and the Chinese cars are also making inroads in the German market.

Reportedly, you get more for your money for the Chinese cars and the quality is... not bad? Good, even?

The Chinese car market is mainly growing in the small electric car segment right now, where the German manufacturers do not even offer anything. That said, the electric cars the German manufacturers offer do not seem to meet the taste of Chinese consumers, mainly for design or software reasons apparently. Will be a challenging transition in the next years to compete with the Chinese companies.

[Zanza]

I wonder why we haven't seen any Chinese car manufacturers try to expand to north america yet (I mean - other than Volvo).

I noticed some BYD and Lynk&Co cars in Germany recently. Polestars have been around for a few years already. Haven't seen other Chinese brands such as Nio or Xpeng yet.

[Iormlund]

Yeah on the flipside in addition to the political implications there are safety concerns. I know of at least one case where someone died from a BYD spontaneously exploding.

I work in safety critical car components and I would not buy a Chinese made car if I could help it. Or from Africa, Latam, etc.

Quality Assurance is very much culturally driven (and company culture is just as important here).

Proper quality procedures increase costs tremendously.
We have almost as many engineers and technicians working in Quality as we do in Engineering or Maintenance. For example, we have teams babysitting systems that trace the amount of ultraviolet and infrared radiation released during every weld, and store them so if one fails we can track down every part that had a similar behaviour to do a recall.

[Sheilbh]

Sounds like the Chinese are starting to do the own decoupling trade wise...

Not the first time I've heard someone say that. And I think it's something Europe is possibly really unprepared for.

My understanding is fundamentally Chinese car companies are offering cars that are more in-line with what Chinese consumers want in a way that German (and possibly Japanese?) companies didn't keep up with. I assume the US was never a big player in that market? They're purely electric and have been designed that way, they're small for crowded cities, they have really good consumer electronics etc. No doubt protectionism plays a part - as it has in every country in the world trying to develop its own industry - but from what I've read it's not just protectionism.

It'll be interesting to see if there are other markets around the world that also find the small, electronics heavy electric cars more attractive - my suspicion is that there probably are a fair few markets like that, but I've no real basis for saying that. But I feel like it could be a popular sort of car for, say, South-East Asia, Latin America, India (although obvs issues there) and, frankly, Europe

Of course it's also in line with Chinese goals to move up the supply chain and I can't help but hear echoes of every other concern about "made in China" in concerns about it. Having said that in kitting out my flat I avoided all Chinese products like white goods etc - although mainly for ethical reasons and because I'm comfortable enough to be able to afford ethics. If I could drive I wouldn't buy Chinese (but small, urban EV sounds ideal).

I think these are the charts I saw on it:

[mongers]

Yeah on the flipside in addition to the political implications there are safety concerns. I know of at least one case where someone died from a BYD spontaneously exploding.

I work in safety critical car components and I would not buy a Chinese made car if I could help it. Or from Africa, Latam, etc.

Quality Assurance is very much culturally driven (and company culture is just as important here).

Proper quality procedures increase costs tremendously.
We have almost as many engineers and technicians working in Quality as we do in Engineering or Maintenance. For example, we have teams babysitting systems that trace the amount of ultraviolet and infrared radiation released during every weld, and store them so if one fails we can track down every part that had a similar behaviour to do a recall.

  

As someone who used to spend a bit of time looking at welds from a QA viewpoint, that's a rather nifty technique.

[Iormlund]

Yeah on the flipside in addition to the political implications there are safety concerns. I know of at least one case where someone died from a BYD spontaneously exploding.

I work in safety critical car components and I would not buy a Chinese made car if I could help it. Or from Africa, Latam, etc.

Quality Assurance is very much culturally driven (and company culture is just as important here).

Proper quality procedures increase costs tremendously.
We have almost as many engineers and technicians working in Quality as we do in Engineering or Maintenance. For example, we have teams babysitting systems that trace the amount of ultraviolet and infrared radiation released during every weld, and store them so if one fails we can track down every part that had a similar behaviour to do a recall.

  

As someone who used to spend a bit of time looking at welds from a QA viewpoint, that's a rather nifty technique.

It's pretty finicky.

The system detects any variation, so unless you have a very stable process it can be a pain in the ass (eg. excess oil leftover from stamping). Most of what it flags are actually Ok parts, which then have to be inspected and validated manually (as the next process will not accept any part that has been flagged as Nok).
But it also routinely detects stuff that visual inspection will miss (and from time to time, stuff that the operators should have detected but did not).

It's also great help when setting process parameters.

[mongers]

Yeah on the flipside in addition to the political implications there are safety concerns. I know of at least one case where someone died from a BYD spontaneously exploding.

I work in safety critical car components and I would not buy a Chinese made car if I could help it. Or from Africa, Latam, etc.

Quality Assurance is very much culturally driven (and company culture is just as important here).

Proper quality procedures increase costs tremendously.
We have almost as many engineers and technicians working in Quality as we do in Engineering or Maintenance. For example, we have teams babysitting systems that trace the amount of ultraviolet and infrared radiation released during every weld, and store them so if one fails we can track down every part that had a similar behaviour to do a recall.

  

As someone who used to spend a bit of time looking at welds from a QA viewpoint, that's a rather nifty technique.

It's pretty finicky.

The system detects any variation, so unless you have a very stable process it can be a pain in the ass (eg. excess oil leftover from stamping). Most of what it flags are actually Ok parts, which then have to be inspected and validated manually (as the next process will not accept any part that has been flagged as Nok).
But it also routinely detects stuff that visual inspection will miss (and from time to time, stuff that the operators should have detected but did not).

It's also great help when setting process parameters.

Thanks Iorm for the explanation, very interesting.

[Jacob]

Looks like Xi may be purging the entire leadership of the Rocket Army - source in Chinese, google translate does a good job though

[crazy canuck]

I wonder why we haven't seen any Chinese car manufacturers try to expand to north america yet (I mean - other than Volvo).

Yeah I'm wondering the same...

I assume some sort of protectionism, but it's just an assumption.

Yesterday I received a request to participate in a poll from a car manufacturers association of some sort.  It was mainly about the purchase of my new vehicle (btw my IONIC 5 finally came in).  There were a series of questions of around whether I would consider purchasing vehicles manufactured in certain countries.  There were several questions getting at whether I would purchase from a Chinese manufacturer. 

So the issue seems to be top of mind of other car makers.