The China Thread

[Jacob]

I think you overestimate  the number of people over here I was alluding to.

Point.

[Zanza]

I guess Macron is fairly alone in that ambition.

[Hamilcar]

The whole episode is a farce. America keeps saying that Europe needs to step up, take responsibility and develop its own capabilities.

Macron makes one trip to China and America is yelling "no, not like that!"

Make up your minds.

[Sheilbh]

Sure - America's saying that Europe needs to do all of that because they're providing security for Europe and the vast majority of material support to Ukraine.

The idea that Europe can step up and assert it's role as a typical French balancing power between the US and China while it isn't even capable in Europe is delusional.

Also it'd be fine if Macron set out what he thought Europe's (or France's) interests were. But he just talks about the US' and China's and that Europe's is to aspire to equidistance. In reality my suspicion is that Europe's interests will basically be broadly the same as America and that we'll end up doing the same uncomfortable splits as with Russia: increasing our economic dependence on one power while maintaining our security dependence on another (and in the end security will win).

Edit: And obviously the more Macron talks like this, while Europe doesn't have strategic autonomy even in its own neighbourhood - the more Eastern and Central European countries try to strengthen trans-Atlantic ties, including through China hawkery which reduces the ability to develop European strategic autonomy - especially as Poland's becoming like a France of Eastern Europe.

[The Larch]

As every delusional French leader before him, Macron might be living under the illusion that other european countries are actually willing to make a hypothetical European strategic autonomy basically a byword for French strategic autonomy.

[Legbiter]

As every delusional French leader before him, Macron might be living under the illusion that other european countries are actually willing to make a hypothetical European strategic autonomy basically a byword for French strategic autonomy.

The French always talk a lot. French strategic autonomy in Europe will be a default the day France spends 5% on defence and forward deploys 2 divisions for the benefit of Eastern NATO partners.

[Admiral Yi]

In reality my suspicion is that Europe's interests will basically be broadly the same as America

Disagree.  Europe will want to have nothing to do with fighting off a Chinese invasion of Taiwan.

[grumbler]

In reality my suspicion is that Europe's interests will basically be broadly the same as America

Disagree.  Europe will want to have nothing to do with fighting off a Chinese invasion of Taiwan.

Disagree.  Europeans seem largely to opposed to the idea of a Chinese invasion of Taiwan and see such an invasion as very much against their interests.

[Sheilbh]

Disagree.  Europe will want to have nothing to do with fighting off a Chinese invasion of Taiwan.

No-one said anything about fighting off a Chinese invasion

[Josquius]

Sure - America's saying that Europe needs to do all of that because they're providing security for Europe and the vast majority of material support to Ukraine.

The idea that Europe can step up and assert it's role as a typical French balancing power between the US and China while it isn't even capable in Europe is delusional.

I suppose what Europe does have is economic power. And the economy is a lot more important to China than it was to Russia?

[The Larch]

Taiwanese Air Force badge. 

[HVC]

WTA going back to China. Guess they finally paid off enough people for them to stop pretending to care about Peng Shuai

[Admiral Yi]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cu3AZfhFunM

Two Chinese US citizens arrested for running a Chinese police station in Manhattan.

[Jacob]

Good.

[DGuller]

China seems to be rather selective with the concept of sovereignty, which supposedly is very important to it.