Reuters: US ambassador to Libya dead

[garbon]

It pretty much started politically, in contrast to Christianity which only acquired political aspects later on.

That's true for Christianity if later on means within a generation or two. And I'd say no, I don't really think keeping it personal and private is pretty much impossible anymore than it is to be a Christian and not proselytize.

[Valmy]

That's true for Christianity if later on means within a generation or two.

What are you thinking about here?  Armenia?

[Martinus]

Actually, I forgot how wikipedia likes to list things: Muhammad Ali, Kareem Abdul-Jabbar and Dave Chappelle are pretty Western, no?

Cat Stevens jumps to mind as well.

Of what? He said that if he learned of the place of residence of Salman Rushdie, he would give it to the people willing to kill him. If that does not count as a rejection of Western values, I don't know what does.

[Martinus]

They aren't real Muslims.

You can make that case for Muhammed Ali and Abdul Jabbar since arguably Nation of Islam is to Islam what Mormonism is to christianity. But, Dave Chapelle is the real thing. In keeping his religion personal and private he exemplifies the ideal of the western religious person. Q.E.D. The Brain is wrong and garbon is right.

Isn't keeping it personal and private pretty much impossible in Islam? It is such a pervasive force in all aspects of private and public life, it's as much a political ideology as a religion. It pretty much started politically, in contrast to Christianity which only acquired political aspects later on.

I think Chapelle proves you can keep it personal and private. Naturally this requires quite a bit more theological acrobatics than killing westerners, but still it is possible and that was garbon's claim. There are lots of cultural muslims that manage to westernize.

That's not really my point, though. To me even if you keep Western culture trappings, converting to Islam is just a proof of a fucked up state of mind. If you want religion, there is plenty to choose from among your cultural circles (all kinds of Christian denominations, for starters) or if you really want to be exotic, there is the whole East Asia world of choice. Converting to a religion that has the most backward, violent, fanatical adherents on the planet is just a proof you are nuts even if you don't subscribe wholeheartedly to their fundamentalism (btw, I would actually argue that it does entail some form of rejection of Western values but that wasn't the point I was making).

Edit: although to be honest, I was originally thinking about white Europeans converting to Islam - as happens to some odd nuts in Poland, for example. For the American blacks, I think it's more of a fad based on desperately looking for a cultural identity that goes beyond slavery, the same way they did with the silliness that is Kwanzaa, or claiming that Cleopatra is black.

[Martinus]

Islam isn't a rejection of Western black culture. I think you need to look again.

I guess that could be because "Western black culture" is an oxymoron.

[Razgovory]

Actually, I forgot how wikipedia likes to list things: Muhammad Ali, Kareem Abdul-Jabbar and Dave Chappelle are pretty Western, no?

Cat Stevens jumps to mind as well.

Of what? He said that if he learned of the place of residence of Salman Rushdie, he would give it to the people willing to kill him. If that does not count as a rejection of Western values, I don't know what does.

You say you want kill people all the time.  Whole groups of people.

[Martinus]

By the way, wasn't Dave Chapelle admitted to a mental health institution at some point?

As for the others mentioned, I would posit that changing your name to one of different culture upon converting to another religion constitutes at least a symbolic rejection of your hitherto culture, even if you do not immediately start killing people.

[Martinus]

Actually, I forgot how wikipedia likes to list things: Muhammad Ali, Kareem Abdul-Jabbar and Dave Chappelle are pretty Western, no?

Cat Stevens jumps to mind as well.

Of what? He said that if he learned of the place of residence of Salman Rushdie, he would give it to the people willing to kill him. If that does not count as a rejection of Western values, I don't know what does.

You say you want kill people all the time.  Whole groups of people.

But I do it for enlightened, rational and non-religious reasons. Killing whole groups of people for enlightened, rational and non-religious reasons is the cornerstone of modern Western values.

[The Brain]

By the way, wasn't Dave Chapelle admitted to a mental health institution at some point?

Sounds Western to me.

[Martinus]

By the way, wasn't Dave Chapelle admitted to a mental health institution at some point?

Sounds Western to me.

As I said, my point is not necessarily that they are not Western (that's what you and garbon started to argue), but that they are nuts.

[Razgovory]

Actually, I forgot how wikipedia likes to list things: Muhammad Ali, Kareem Abdul-Jabbar and Dave Chappelle are pretty Western, no?

Cat Stevens jumps to mind as well.

Of what? He said that if he learned of the place of residence of Salman Rushdie, he would give it to the people willing to kill him. If that does not count as a rejection of Western values, I don't know what does.

You say you want kill people all the time.  Whole groups of people.

But I do it for enlightened, rational and non-religious reasons. Killing whole groups of people for enlightened, rational and non-religious reasons is the cornerstone of modern Western values.

See? He's a Russian.

[Viking]

By the way, wasn't Dave Chapelle admitted to a mental health institution at some point?

No, he went to south africa a spent some time with a religious mentor. He did not have a mental breakdown and he did not get admitted to a mental institution. He was rich enough so he decided after some soul searching to get out of the game.

[Syt]

One of the actresses in the movie explains how she ended up in the movie on Neil Gaiman's blog:

http://journal.neilgaiman.com/2012/09/a-letter-from-scared-actress.html

Excerpt from much longer post:

[...]

A year ago, in the summer of 2011, I submitted my materials to various projects on the Explore Talent web-site. I received a call from the casting director of the movie "Desert Warrior", and my audition date was scheduled. I auditioned for the role of Hilary. Several days later, I was informed that I got a callback. I did the callback. Several days later, I was informed that I landed the role of Hilary in the movie called "Desert Warrior".

The filming of the movie was done in August of 2011. We were filming the movie in a studio warehouse with a green screen in Duarte, CA. The project was a low budget, independent feature movie.

The filming of the movie was beginning soon after the day I was told I got a role. The script was not sent to me. When I got to the set, I was merely provided with the scenes my character was in.

I did not consider this to be an unusual thing, seeing as I have had an experience with something like this before. I did a movie once where the script was written in a foreign language and only my parts were translated into English and accordingly, I was provided with my scenes only. Having experienced that, I thought the same thing was happening with "Desert Warrior". Aware of the fact that the supposed producer and the script-writer of the movie (known as Sam Bassil) was a foreigner (thanks to his accent), I thought that the original script was written in his native tongue and that not all scenes were translated into English. Also, the filming dates of the movie had to be rescheduled last minute to fit my schedule (I had other films to do right after the "Desert Warrior" outside CA). Because of this rushed rearrangements, I thought that the production first forgot and then did not consider it necessary to send me the script, and again - I did not find this unusual, since I knew what role I had, I knew about my character and I knew about the story of the film.

My character Hilary was a young girl who is sold (against her own free will) by her parents to a tribe leader known as GEORGE. She is one of his (most likely, the youngest) brides in the movie.

The film was about a comet falling into a desert and different tribes in ancient Egypt fighting to acquire it for they deemed that the comet possessed some supernatural powers.

The movie that we were doing in Duarte was called "Desert Warrior" and it was a fictional adventure drama. The character GEORGE was a leader of one of those tribes fighting for the comet.

There was no mention EVER by anyone of MUHAMMAD and no mention of religion during the entire time I was on the set. I am hundred percent certain nobody in the cast and nobody in the US artistic side of the crew knew what was really planned for this "Desert Warrior".

[...]

[Martinus]

By the way, wasn't Dave Chapelle admitted to a mental health institution at some point?

No, he went to south africa a spent some time with a religious mentor. He did not have a mental breakdown and he did not get admitted to a mental institution. He was rich enough so he decided after some soul searching to get out of the game.

[Martinus]

Anyway, pity about Dave Chapelle. I used to like him. Same with Will Smith and scientology. Too many nuts.