25 years old and deep in debt

[The Minsky Moment]

No.  I don't blame 18-22 year olds for making bad choices.  I blame the perverse destruction of the value of a college degree by misguided policy that has been overtaken by a rentier class of professors.  (The education itself was probably never terribly valuable except as a signaling method, though arguably ~1900 history and literature grads were better "trained" in their discipline.)

Second with the exception of RNs, software developers, and perhaps medical assistants, none of these professions requires STEM qualifications.

Also accountants ("M").  So... basically all of the good ones.

No - you certainly do not need a BS in mathematics to be an accountant.  My guess is that only a small minority of CPA's have mathematics degrees.
There are also managerial occupations on that list for which a non-science major or a social sciences major would be a more logical fit.

I don't think we disagree--I'm simply using the term "value" in the context of college degrees a bit differently.  We are all of us quite aware of the human potential destruction society we've created thanks to requiring children to undertake tens of thousands of dollars worth of debt to signal to employers that they have the work ethic to mostly show up to class and take some exams.

Value is relative.  Yes we agree on this but quite often you seem to put emphasis on factors I would consider more extraneous or less relevant to the main point.

[alfred russel]

Also accountants ("M").  So... basically all of the good ones.

Accountants aren't really "M". If you are talking CPA/Chartered Accountants, the base of knowledge probably has more in common with law than a mathmetician's.

[The Minsky Moment]

I wonder what they look at in coming to their projections.  I've seen a number of analysis saying several of those areas are expected to come under intense pressure from automation.  Food preparation, truck driver, retail sales - all are expected to be heavily effected by automation.

Perhaps it's just the timeline - automated vehicles look to very much be coming, but I don't know if we'll see their impact within the next 10 years.

First, the hype tends to outrun the fact.
Second, technology tends to create its own set of needs and demands.  Ubiquitous PCs and cheap printers decreased the need for people to take dictation but fostered the vast growth of previous non-existent IT departments, not to mention a long tail of service technicians and consultants with their own need for clerical support.

[The Minsky Moment]

There's also the difference in signals you're talking about, Joan.  A STEM degree signals a bundle of skills--at the very least, reasoning skills.  A humanities degree signals a bundle of expectations--and maybe the ability to write a coherent email, but I wouldn't count on it, and neither do employers.  All things being equal, STEM degrees are thus at least a little bit more versatile.  Plus, as the joke goes, declining growth or not, there are still actually "engineering companies."  There's no such thing as a "history company" and very few "poetry companies" outside of academia itself, which is an exceptionally stupid dream to pursue.

STEM degrees tend to focus very particular kinds of skills that often yet very useful in typical corporate environments, at times perhaps even counter-productive.  Humanities degrees due focus on skills that are commonly helpful in virtually any commercial setting - writing and presentation for example.  True not ever degree taker actually acquires those skills but that is a more general problem not confined to the humanities.

Also aside from a few specialty consultants. there are precious few "engineering companies" in any proper sense.  There may be conglomerates commonly referred to that way, but if you really look at what they are doing, there are lots of people doing things like marketing, sales, management, finance, logistics, clerical, compliance, support and so on.  The number of people actually doing engineering work is a fraction.

[Valmy]

This is not helping my morale right before finals Minsky.

However I also have a humanities degree.

[Ideologue]

Also accountants ("M").  So... basically all of the good ones.

Accountants aren't really "M". If you are talking CPA/Chartered Accountants, the base of knowledge probably has more in common with law than a mathmetician's.

I've always counted it as STEM.  It's quantitative, hard vs. soft.  It's certainly not a humanity.   I mean, what is it?  A trade?  I also support trades.  (The lack of trade education is actually one of the worst things about law school.)

There are also managerial occupations on that list for which a non-science major or a social sciences major would be a more logical fit.

You know, I used to make fun of the business majors.    That's a kind of dumb-person economics, hence potentially "S."

Also aside from a few specialty consultants. there are precious few "engineering companies" in any proper sense.  There may be conglomerates commonly referred to that way, but if you really look at what they are doing, there are lots of people doing things like marketing, sales, management, finance, logistics, clerical, compliance, support and so on.  The number of people actually doing engineering work is a fraction.

Alright, I can cop to using "STEM" in a somewhat non-rigorous way.  But marketing, logistics, secretarial, law/HR/whatever degrees are certainly not "humanities."  One is best prepared for those fields by either trade school (or no school, and post-high school work experience) or, at higher echelons, a university's business school.

Edit: and "finance" is straight up STEM.

[Ideologue]

Since I have no desire to shit up Sav's thread despite how personally hurtful I find it ( ).

STEM:

A couple weeks ago I designed a radio system for Mongolia State Rail as part of a GE bid.  The tracks ran from Chinese border, through the Gobi, into the mountains, through Ulan Bator and finally to the Russian border in the Khentii mountains.

As a Radio Frequency Engineer I thought that was a neat project; it's a challenging environment for radio and an exotic locale.  I was curious as to what other professionals found interesting in their careers.

Humanities/false trade school:

One time I paid my student loans.  It was almost two years ago.

[Razgovory]

If it makes you feel better, you probably wouldn't have gotten a good job with a STEM degree either.

[Ideologue]

If it makes you feel better, fifty years ago you'd be ECT'd to death, but we don't do that anymore.

[Valmy]

If it makes you feel better, you probably wouldn't have gotten a good job with a STEM degree either.

Raz: expert on employment.

[Jacob]

Since I have no desire to shit up Sav's thread despite how personally hurtful I find it ( ).

STEM:

A couple weeks ago I designed a radio system for Mongolia State Rail as part of a GE bid.  The tracks ran from Chinese border, through the Gobi, into the mountains, through Ulan Bator and finally to the Russian border in the Khentii mountains.

As a Radio Frequency Engineer I thought that was a neat project; it's a challenging environment for radio and an exotic locale.  I was curious as to what other professionals found interesting in their careers.

Humanities/false trade school:

One time I paid my student loans.  It was almost two years ago.

I think the stuff I posted is not too different from Sav's, and I don't have a STEM degree.

[Ideologue]

OK, but you're an exceptional person.  As a video game developer, your experience can't be any more generalized than that of a successful poet or actor.  Also you do have a lot of "E"/"M" experience, viz. programming, if I'm not mistaken.

[Jacob]

OK, but you're an exceptional person.  As a video game developer, your experience can't be any more generalized than that of a successful poet or actor.  Also you do have a lot of "E"/"M" experience, viz. programming, if I'm not mistaken.

Not at all.

I mean, I did code some:

10 Print "hello world"
20 Goto 10

... and I did take one Fortran 76 course in university. But that's about it.

[Jacob]

... and let me tell you, there are a lot of unexceptional video game developers as well. Holy hell, are there some idiots in this industry.

[Ideologue]

Talent isn't necessarily the "exception" I meant, although in your case it's true.

"Becoming [creative field employee]" is not really a valid career plan, except possibly in film, which is big enough that you can make a go of it as a marginal worker, like, say, katmai.  The biggest factor as I understand it is, in addition to a certain base level of competence/deadline-meeting (though this might not be strictly necessary), connections/luck, what they call "the breaks."  Law is actually a lot like that these days.