Voter ID controversy

[Grey Fox]

GF, I think the answer is no.  They dont see it.

Of course I see it.  But it is the nature of the beast.

You had me worried.

Then maybe the Beast needs to be put down?

[merithyn]

No.  To flip it around, Democrats seem willing to tolerate (if not encourage) a certain amount of voter fraud to give their party a better chance at winning.

Still waiting on documentation for this "voter fraud" that entails people pretending to be other people in order to vote.

Pretty sure that's only because her party has the White House.  If McCain had won in '08 I'm sure Priebus would mention McCain's agenda.

I agree completely.

The difference is that the Democrats aren't changing laws to give their party a better chance at winning.

Like hell they are not.  But usually the Republicans and Democrats are crafting laws to make it harder for any third party to challenge them.  Only rarely do they come into conflict like this on election laws as their interests usually intersect.

I think the point she is making is the Republicans are so desparate they are now departing from those basic norms that have governed your system for so long.

Pretty much, yeah. It's the culture of all of it that I am complaining about.

[derspiess]

I think the point she is making is the Republicans are so desparate they are now departing from those basic norms that have governed your system for so long.

Southern conservatives figuring out ways to keep black people from voting is one of those traditions that has an uninterrupted link to the beginning of our republic.

As is voter fraud.

[crazy canuck]

I think the point she is making is the Republicans are so desparate they are now departing from those basic norms that have governed your system for so long.

Southern conservatives figuring out ways to keep black people from voting is one of those traditions that has an uninterrupted link to the beginning of our republic.

As is voter fraud.

I sure you will be able to support that contention with, you know, something beyond speculation and assumption.

[derspiess]

I sure you will be able to support that contention with, you know, something beyond speculation and assumption.

http://articles.philly.com/2012-07-20/news/32747884_1_election-officials-voter-impersonation-new-voter-id-law

http://miamiherald.typepad.com/nakedpolitics/2012/08/julien-voting-irregularities-and-absentee-ballot-fraud-tainted-razor-thin-race.html

http://www.27east.com/news/article.cfm/General-Interest-Southampton/438337/Tuckahoe-Finds-Voting-Irregularities-Re-piping-Project-Put-Off

http://www.nypost.com/p/blogs/capitol/was_al_franken_elected_by_vote_fraud_Ige4Z6HxpXOmCgKlpmgyZM

http://www.wcsh6.com/news/article/211828/2/Commission-examines-claims-of-voting-irregularities

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB119984165483276543.html

[garbon]

I sure you will be able to support that contention with, you know, something beyond speculation and assumption.

http://articles.philly.com/2012-07-20/news/32747884_1_election-officials-voter-impersonation-new-voter-id-law

http://miamiherald.typepad.com/nakedpolitics/2012/08/julien-voting-irregularities-and-absentee-ballot-fraud-tainted-razor-thin-race.html

http://www.27east.com/news/article.cfm/General-Interest-Southampton/438337/Tuckahoe-Finds-Voting-Irregularities-Re-piping-Project-Put-Off

http://www.nypost.com/p/blogs/capitol/was_al_franken_elected_by_vote_fraud_Ige4Z6HxpXOmCgKlpmgyZM

http://www.wcsh6.com/news/article/211828/2/Commission-examines-claims-of-voting-irregularities

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB119984165483276543.html

I've only looked at the first two links. The first states that there wasn't voter fraud but that there were some issues - notably 23 votes that shouldn't have been able to be cast by non-registered voters but poll workers failed to follow procedure. Oh and a woman who voted twice. 

2nd is about a politician who is claiming fraud because though because the results of his personally run exit poll don't match the reported vote results.

If the rest are like that - no real signs of voter fraud.

[merithyn]

I sure you will be able to support that contention with, you know, something beyond speculation and assumption.

http://articles.philly.com/2012-07-20/news/32747884_1_election-officials-voter-impersonation-new-voter-id-law - New laws won't fix anything found
http://miamiherald.typepad.com/nakedpolitics/2012/08/julien-voting-irregularities-and-absentee-ballot-fraud-tainted-razor-thin-race.html - New laws won't fix anything found

http://www.27east.com/news/article.cfm/General-Interest-Southampton/438337/Tuckahoe-Finds-Voting-Irregularities-Re-piping-Project-Put-Off - New laws won't fix anything found (And you're really reaching when you're pulling out School Board elections.  )

http://www.nypost.com/p/blogs/capitol/was_al_franken_elected_by_vote_fraud_Ige4Z6HxpXOmCgKlpmgyZM - New laws won't fix anything found Doesn't say who DID vote. The assumption based on the article is that the felons did actually vote, but weren't supposed to.

http://www.wcsh6.com/news/article/211828/2/Commission-examines-claims-of-voting-irregularities - New laws won't fix anything found Appears to be a problem with people registering to vote who shouldn't be allowed to, not something an ID would fix.

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB119984165483276543.html - Opinion piece; not valid studies of voter rolls

[garbon]

3rd link just has a person complaining that 3 people voted in two school districts. 4th seems to be the first I've seen that actually talks to real voter fraud though the amount of people accused is about 177.

[derspiess]

Nothing is ever going to be enough for you people.  You'll bury your heads in the sand and pretend there's no problem.

As to the incidents where there are small numbers of confirmed or suspected voter fraud-- some elections are close enough to be determined by a handful of votes, and those are the ones that can be adversely affected by voter fraud.  I'll freely admit that voter fraud is probably not a decisive problem in elections where there is a sizable margin of victory (i.e., most).  But that doesn't mean it's something that should be ignored altogether.

[merithyn]

3rd link just has a person complaining that 3 people voted in two school districts. 4th seems to be the first I've seen that actually talks to real voter fraud though the amount of people accused is about 177.

Fourth one is more absentee voter fraud, not something the new laws would address at all.

[merithyn]

Nothing is ever going to be enough for you people.  You'll bury your heads in the sand and pretend there's no problem.

As to the incidents where there are small numbers of confirmed or suspected voter fraud-- some elections are close enough to be determined by a handful of votes, and those are the ones that can be adversely affected by voter fraud.  I'll freely admit that voter fraud is probably not a decisive problem in elections where there is a sizable margin of victory (i.e., most).  But that doesn't mean it's something that should be ignored altogether.

Oh, I agree, but the new laws are not going to fix anything that's happening right now. It's all about better training for pollsters, better communication between prescincts, and fixing absentee voter fraud. Showing an ID isn't going to fix anything whatsoever that you've provided. All it does is disenfranchise voters by adding yet another bar for people to climb over.

With voter participation at barely half the eligible population as it is, why make it harder unless it benefits your primary objective of getting your people elected?

[garbon]

Nothing is ever going to be enough for you people.  You'll bury your heads in the sand and pretend there's no problem.

As to the incidents where there are small numbers of confirmed or suspected voter fraud-- some elections are close enough to be determined by a handful of votes, and those are the ones that can be adversely affected by voter fraud.  I'll freely admit that voter fraud is probably not a decisive problem in elections where there is a sizable margin of victory (i.e., most).  But that doesn't mean it's something that should be ignored altogether.

Oh, I agree, but the new laws are not going to fix anything that's happening right now. It's all about better training for pollsters, better communication between prescincts, and fixing absentee voter fraud. Showing an ID isn't going to fix anything whatsoever that you've provided. All it does is disenfranchise voters by adding yet another bar for people to climb over.

With voter participation at barely half the eligible population as it is, why make it harder unless it benefits your primary objective of getting your people elected?

Exactly this.

[Berkut]

I am with DG here.

There is no way I am buying the claim that a reasonable, rational person could support these types of Voter ID laws for the stated reasons. It is transparently obvious that the solution (requiring voter id that will inevitably result in many, many, MANY people not being able to vote) is far worse than the actual problem (largely unevidenced, but under no circumstances significant numbers of invalid votes being cast due to inadequate ID checks)...unless the solution and problem are not what is being stated, but something else entirely (problem: too many people voting Dem - solution: target poor and minorities to discourage them from voting).

Then it makes perfect, if utterly reprehensible, sense.

[Admiral Yi]

I get the part about not many documented instances of voter fraud, but I don't get the many, many people who will be unable to vote because of voter ID laws.

[Razgovory]

I sure you will be able to support that contention with, you know, something beyond speculation and assumption.

http://articles.philly.com/2012-07-20/news/32747884_1_election-officials-voter-impersonation-new-voter-id-law

http://miamiherald.typepad.com/nakedpolitics/2012/08/julien-voting-irregularities-and-absentee-ballot-fraud-tainted-razor-thin-race.html

http://www.27east.com/news/article.cfm/General-Interest-Southampton/438337/Tuckahoe-Finds-Voting-Irregularities-Re-piping-Project-Put-Off

http://www.nypost.com/p/blogs/capitol/was_al_franken_elected_by_vote_fraud_Ige4Z6HxpXOmCgKlpmgyZM

http://www.wcsh6.com/news/article/211828/2/Commission-examines-claims-of-voting-irregularities

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB119984165483276543.html

You took an article from the New York Post?  I mean seriously?