Voter ID controversy

[garbon]

Not if you can just show up without any ID and get to vote under whatever name you say.

And when the stories pile up of people who went to vote and then were told they already voted?

[CountDeMoney]

The question, which remains though: Do you have this system because indeed your politicans and people in general would not think to abuse this easily abuse-able system, or it is just a matter of being naive and thinking it works, while the select few abuse it to hell and make Dubya win by a few votes in Florida?

There are more problems with fraudulent absentee balloting than voter impersonation:  it just doesn't happen.

re: Dubya and Florida;  that was retroactive denial of the vote, in procedurally dismissing ballots that were already cast.

[Strix]

I'd worry more about hacking with so many places switching to computerized voting systems.

I suppose the Voter ID could keep the dead from voting. After all, we don't want Snowball casting a vote for Romney! 

[Tamas]

Not if you can just show up without any ID and get to vote under whatever name you say.

And when the stories pile up of people who went to vote and then were told they already voted?

good point, altough I wonder what percentage of voters bothers to go

But, let's say it does happen that you go and are told you have already voted.
-what way do you have to prove that it is indeed you who have voted, supposedly? Your ID
-what is to be done to remedy it? You just lost your right to vote because of some goofball neighbor who wanted to be funny

[Scipio]

The question, which remains though: Do you have this system because indeed your politicans and people in general would not think to abuse this easily abuse-able system, or it is just a matter of being naive and thinking it works, while the select few abuse it to hell and make Dubya win by a few votes in Florida?

There are more problems with fraudulent absentee balloting than voter impersonation:  it just doesn't happen.

re: Dubya and Florida;  that was retroactive denial of the vote, in procedurally dismissing ballots that were already cast.

And interestingly enough, the Gore campaign's preferred method of recount would have guaranteed that they would have lost.

[CountDeMoney]

And interestingly enough, the Gore campaign's preferred method of recount would have guaranteed that they would have lost.

At least it would've been above board.  And that was the point.  So there.

[garbon]

good point, altough I wonder what percentage of voters bothers to go

But, let's say it does happen that you go and are told you have already voted.
-what way do you have to prove that it is indeed you who have voted, supposedly? Your ID
-what is to be done to remedy it? You just lost your right to vote because of some goofball neighbor who wanted to be funny

You'd complain to the board of elections. If this was being done in sizable enough quantities that it was changing the outcome of elections, I'm pretty sure that would be noted.

Unlikely that your goofball neighbor would do so to be funny considering that he could be facing felony charges for voter fraud.

[CountDeMoney]

But, let's say it does happen that you go and are told you have already voted.
-what way do you have to prove that it is indeed you who have voted, supposedly? Your ID
-what is to be done to remedy it? You just lost your right to vote because of some goofball neighbor who wanted to be funny

You'd be allowed to submit a provisional ballot anyway, and the Board of Elections would investigate afterwards.  You still wouldn't lose your right to vote.

[Berkut]

THe reason this is an issue in the states is that the Republicans have figured out that they can systemically remove huge numbers of voters from the voting pool by instituting these laws to force people to bring ID under the guise of combatting voter fraud.

It just so happens that the vast, vast majority of people who will end up NOT voting as a result of not having ID are in those demographics that heavily vote Democrat.

Absent any political agenda, I have no theoretical problem with insisting that people who vote prove they are who they say they are - sadly, this is not driven by any kind of actual concern about voter fraud (plenty of studies and common sense have shown that this simply is not a real issue in the US), but as a means to dis-enfranchise the poor and minorities.

It is as cynical and underhanded as politics gets, IMO.

[alfred russel]

Okay so then let's get a run at this again.

I seriously admire the American take on this (and the British one, altough IIRC they do have voter cards?)

The question, which remains though: Do you have this system because indeed your politicans and people in general would not think to abuse this easily abuse-able system, or it is just a matter of being naive and thinking it works, while the select few abuse it to hell and make Dubya win by a few votes in Florida?

Keep in mind that the Americans are speaking in terms of generalities and we don't actually have a "system".

Elections are state and local affairs, and the feds just piggyback those for the president and congress (the presidential election in particular is put in the hands of the state: if a state wanted to, it could abolish the election and just have the legislature or governor or someone decide who gets the states votes).

Some places may require IDs, some may not but require voter cards, some may not require anything other than prior registration.

[Admiral Yi]

Okay so then let's get a run at this again.

I seriously admire the American take on this (and the British one, altough IIRC they do have voter cards?)

The question, which remains though: Do you have this system because indeed your politicans and people in general would not think to abuse this easily abuse-able system, or it is just a matter of being naive and thinking it works, while the select few abuse it to hell and make Dubya win by a few votes in Florida?

We have this system because we are paranoid about a national identity card.

The voter registration card is just a reminder to you of where to vote; it's not legal proof of anything AFAIK.

The system essentially relies on a combination of honor, probability, and punishment.  In order to cheat you need to find someone who is a) registered and b) not going to vote.  That's why dead people voting is relatively popular.

[Berkut]

  That's why dead people voting is relatively popular.

That is certainly the one example I have hear anecdotally, but if it is happening in significant numbers, it would seem like it would be pretty easy to detect, at least after the fact.

Simply cross check the voter lists of those who have voted against public death records.

Not really a good way to stop it (you likely cannot do it systemically with our current lack of records) but if you wanted to prove that voter fraud was actually happening, it should be pretty easy to investigate after the fact.

But nobody has done so - there is no study or report showing that in election X, there where Y examples of people voting who it turns out were dead.

[CountDeMoney]

That's why dead people voting is relatively popular.

Voter ID laws aren't designed to stop that, however.  Not that that's been a concern for the last 50 years anyway.

But Voter ID laws are "designed" to prevent voter impersonation at the polling place, which does not happen.  What it does do, however, is place an unnecessary burden on certain individuals for no compelling or documented reason.

[crazy canuck]

You don't need ID to vote in the UK. You register to vote, a card gets sent to your address and you bring it along and confirm your address so they can cross you off the list. Several of my nearest and dearest do not have a driving licence and their passports have expired so they therefore have no ID nor any need of one.

That is what we do here.

[Berkut]

Yep - the obvious set of people who would not have ID are those who do not drive.

And who doesn't drive? People who tend to live in urban areas.

And what is more, if you don't drive, why, that makes it a bit of a pain in the ass to get to were you may need to go to get an ID - so maybe you just don't bother. So you just don't vote.

Which is the entire point of this "movement". There is a reason it is a completely partisan effort, which gets put into place in states like Pennsylvania, with a Republican legislature, but which often goes to the Democrats in presidential elections due to the concentration of voters in urban areas.