Egypt news

[The Minsky Moment]

But I'm suggesting that a form of 'conservative democracy' may emerge in the Middle East and Africa. The emphasis being more on community identity, rights and values under a democracy, rather than those of an individual. So democracy plus, for example, community defined limits on acceptable speech, the preservation of customary and Sharia legal systems and certain 'defining' institutions maintaining a special position. A more conservative version of Dev's Ireland. They may end up choosing a more liberal path, but I don't think that's where they will or necessarily should start.

I lean towards Viking's view on this.  It's theoretically coherent but in practice it will almost certainly devolve towards some kind of soft authoritarianism.  The problem is that power if not properly checked by robust and enforcable individual and minority rights will eventually run roughshod, either abusing the privileged institutional structures to perpetuate themselves, or playing communal divide and conquer. 

[Razgovory]

I've never heard that social democracy was something incompatible with liberal democracy.

Then maybe you should do some reading.

I'm not sure you'll get many people to agree with you outside a few loopy conservatives.

How could they be the same? Seriously.

Cause Liberal in this context doesn't refer to economics but things like free speech, the ability to run for office, that kind of thing.

is it now?

If you don't consider economic freedom a meaningful freedom, of course you don't see a difference between socialism and liberalism. that's precisely the difference between the two.

I didn't say that, I simply said that the term doesn't refer to economic liberalism but rather social liberalism.  That's why Singapore is considered an illiberal democracy.  It has high economic freedom, but much less social freedom.

[jimmy olsen]

He's forced to backpedal. 

http://worldnews.nbcnews.com/_news/2012/12/08/15776159-egypts-morsi-annuls-orders-giving-him-sweeping-powers-but-keeps-dec-15-constitution-vote?lite

Egypt's Morsi annuls orders giving him sweeping powers, but keeps Dec. 15 constitution vote

By NBC News staff and wire reports

CAIRO -- Egyptian President Mohammed Morsi on Saturday issued a decree annulling the most controversial parts of earlier orders that granted him sweeping powers, including the ability to make laws and decisions that are not subject to judicial reviews.

The earlier orders had led to three weeks of violent clashes between Morsi supporters and the political opposition.

The president no longer has absolute powers, but his government's draft constitution will stand in its current form and will not be subject to change before a referendum set for Dec. 15, NBC's Ayman Mohyeldin reported from Cairo.

The new declaration still calls for the referendum to go ahead as scheduled, but the new referendum will not be a simple "yes" or "no."

If the draft constitution is rejected, Morsi said he will ask the public to directly vote for a new 100-member constituent assembly to write a new constitution. The existing 100-member assembly was appointed by the dissolved parliament.

Earlier Saturday, Egypt's military warned of "disastrous consequences" if the crisis that sent tens of thousands of protesters back into the streets was not resolved, signaling the army's return to an increasingly polarized and violent political scene.

The military said serious dialogue is the "best and only" way to overcome the nation's deepening conflict.

"Anything other than that (dialogue) will force us into a dark tunnel with disastrous consequences; something which we won't allow," the statement said.

Failing to reach a consensus "is in the interest of neither side. The nation as a whole will pay the price," it added. The statement was read by an unnamed military official on state television.

Egypt's once all-powerful military, which temporarily took over governing the country after the revolution that ousted autocratic leader Hosni Mubarak, has largely been sidelined since handing over power to Morsi weeks after his election.

But it has begun asserting itself again, with soldiers sealing off the presidential palace with tanks and barbed wire, as rival protests and street battles between Morsi's supporters and his opponents turned increasingly violent.

The statement said the military "realizes its national responsibility in protecting the nation's higher interests" and state institutions.

At least six civilians have been killed and several offices of the president's Muslim Brotherhood set on fire since the crisis began on Nov. 22. The two sides also have staged a number of sit-ins around state institutions, including the presidential palace where some of the most violent clashes occurred.

Images of the military's elite Republican Guards unit surrounding the area around the palace showed one of the most high-profile troop deployment since the army handed over power to Morsi on June 30.

A sit-in by Morsi's opponents around the palace continued Saturday, with protesters setting up roadblocks with tanks behind them amid reports that the president's supporters planned rival protests. By midday Saturday, TV footage showed the military setting up a new wall of cement blocks around the palace.

Tensions have escalated since Morsi issued new decrees granting himself and an Islamist-dominated constitutional assembly immunity from oversight by the judiciary. The president's allies then rushed through a constitution and he announced a Dec. 15 nationwide referendum on the charter.

The president has insisted his decrees were meant to protect the country's transition to democracy from former regime figures trying to derail it.

The Associated Press contributed to this report.

[The Brain]

I'm considering giving the help sweeping powers.

[Viking]

More on what it means to live in a "Conservative Democracy", same thing's happening in Turkey.

Egyptian satirist accused of undermining Mohammed Morsi

An Egyptian satirist who made fun of President Mohammed Morsi on television has been accused of undermining his standing and will be investigated by prosecutors, according to a judicial source.

Bassem Youssef's case will increase worries about freedom of speech in the post-Hosni Mubarak era, especially when the country's new constitution includes provisions criticised by rights activists for, among other things, forbidding insults.
Mr Youssef rose to fame following the uprising that swept Mubarak from power in February 2011 with a satirical online programme that was compared with Jon Stewart's Daily Show.
He has since had his own show on Egyptian television and mocked Mr Morsi's repeated use of the word "love" in his speeches by starting one of his programmes with a love song, holding a red pillow with the president's face printed on it.
The prosecutor general ordered an investigation into a formal complaint against Mr Youssef by an Islamist lawyer. The complaint accuses him of "insulting" Mr Morsi, an Islamist backed by the Muslim Brotherhood, and "undermining his standing".
Human rights activists say it is the latest in a series of criminal defamation cases that bode ill for free speech as Egypt reshapes its institutions after Mubarak was toppled.

It seems that Morsi does not love Bassam Youssef. If Shelf's Conservative Democracy is to exist it can only exist if altruists decide what is common decency and what is not. Unfortunately for use altruists don't exist in politics, else socialism or fascism might have worked.

[mongers]

More on what it means to live in a "Conservative Democracy", same thing's happening in Turkey.

Egyptian satirist accused of undermining Mohammed Morsi

An Egyptian satirist who made fun of President Mohammed Morsi on television has been accused of undermining his standing and will be investigated by prosecutors, according to a judicial source.

Bassem Youssef's case will increase worries about freedom of speech in the post-Hosni Mubarak era, especially when the country's new constitution includes provisions criticised by rights activists for, among other things, forbidding insults.
Mr Youssef rose to fame following the uprising that swept Mubarak from power in February 2011 with a satirical online programme that was compared with Jon Stewart's Daily Show.
He has since had his own show on Egyptian television and mocked Mr Morsi's repeated use of the word "love" in his speeches by starting one of his programmes with a love song, holding a red pillow with the president's face printed on it.
The prosecutor general ordered an investigation into a formal complaint against Mr Youssef by an Islamist lawyer. The complaint accuses him of "insulting" Mr Morsi, an Islamist backed by the Muslim Brotherhood, and "undermining his standing".
Human rights activists say it is the latest in a series of criminal defamation cases that bode ill for free speech as Egypt reshapes its institutions after Mubarak was toppled.

It seems that Morsi does not love Bassam Youssef. If Shelf's Conservative Democracy is to exist it can only exist if altruists decide what is common decency and what is not. Unfortunately for use altruists don't exist in politics, else socialism or fascism might have worked.

I'm not sure this is correct, an acquaintance of mine, a satirist artist was involved in a court case in Turkey about defaming the President, but the judicial progress ground out the 'correct' result in the end.

Whereas over here, he's had considerable problems over a free speech issue, something has hasn't been resolved and indeed might even see him serving jail time, this in a liberal/illiberal* democracy.



* Delete as applicable.

[Tamas]

Well nowadays the UK appears to be quite worrisome in that regard.
At least it shows how liberal democracy is never a given, and how fragile it is.

[Viking]

I'm not sure this is correct, an acquaintance of mine, a satirist artist was involved in a court case in Turkey about defaming the President, but the judicial progress ground out the 'correct' result in the end.

The fact that defaming the president is a criminal charge and gets prosecuted sort of proves my point.

[CountDeMoney]

I'm not sure this is correct, an acquaintance of mine, a satirist artist was involved in a court case in Turkey about defaming the President, but the judicial progress ground out the 'correct' result in the end.

The fact that defaming the president is a criminal charge and gets prosecuted sort of proves my point.

I'm going to have to agree with SS-Wiking on this one.  So what if the judicial process came to the "correct" result?

[Martinus]

Laws like this actually do exist in a lot of European democracies (generally, most European countries do not perceive freedom of speech in the same way Americans do). So I'm gonna agree with mongers that it is not in itself a cause for concern.

[Martinus]

By quick search Spain, Norway, the Netherlands and Denmark have criminal sanctions for defaming the monarch. In Poland, Germany and Switzerland you can face charges not just for defaming those countries heads of state but also foreign heads of state.

[Viking]

By quick search Spain, Norway, the Netherlands and Denmark have criminal sanctions for defaming the monarch. In Poland, Germany and Switzerland you can face charges not just for defaming those countries heads of state but also foreign heads of state.

You know that's not the same thing. I assume you got your list from Wiki (where I found the details).

Denmark merely applies fines for libel against the royal family more harshly.
Norway hasn't used its 110 year old law in the 110 years since it's passing during Union with Sweden.
Spain and Netherlands have fined editors for depicting royals participating in lewd sexual acts.
Germany and Switzerland have those laws but don't appear to implement them.
Poland, well, I defer to your highly attuned sense of propriety when it comes to the respect due to Polish politics and society.

[Valmy]

Laws like this actually do exist in a lot of European democracies (generally, most European countries do not perceive freedom of speech in the same way Americans do). So I'm gonna agree with mongers that it is not in itself a cause for concern.

Except what Viking said was that it was a criminal charge AND it gets prosecuted is the cause for concern.

[Razgovory]

By quick search Spain, Norway, the Netherlands and Denmark have criminal sanctions for defaming the monarch. In Poland, Germany and Switzerland you can face charges not just for defaming those countries heads of state but also foreign heads of state.

You know that's not the same thing. I assume you got your list from Wiki (where I found the details).

Denmark merely applies fines for libel against the royal family more harshly.
Norway hasn't used its 110 year old law in the 110 years since it's passing during Union with Sweden.
Spain and Netherlands have fined editors for depicting royals participating in lewd sexual acts.
Germany and Switzerland have those laws but don't appear to implement them.
Poland, well, I defer to your highly attuned sense of propriety when it comes to the respect due to Polish politics and society.

So some European countries do in fact have such laws.

[The Minsky Moment]

(generally, most European countries do not perceive freedom of speech in the same way Americans do).

It's not a question of perception.
Some European countries choose to give more priority to reputational protections over speech rights and a few keep around lese majeste laws as anachronisms.
With respect to the former, this doesn't represent a different perception but a conscious decision to downgrade the importance of speech rights relative to systems (like the US) which apply more stringent standards to libel suits.
With respect to the latter, it also doesn't reflect perceptual differences but rather a failure to update the legal code to reflect the present reality.

In any case, none of these differences would suggest that the Erdogan government's pursuit of criminal lese majeste cases against media personalities is not of concern.  It is of big concern.