Where do atheists get their morals from?

[Viking]

This question arose in the terrorism thread where I suggested that muslim radicals in iraq find themselves permitting themselves to do obvious great evil and using their book and god to justify it.

Uhm, not really. 

My question to you in that thread wasn't about where atheists get their morals from.  I was questioning your apparant assumption that WWII-era Norwegians were, in the main, atheists.

OK

The WWII era Norwegian got their morals from the same place atheists and everybody else does. Where you find extreme violence it will co-incide with exception or licence for expediency granted from above (from the great leader or god).

My argument is that the norwegians were running on normal morals while the iraqis operating with a licence to kill civilians from god.

[dps]

In cohesive cultures morality can come from fear of ostracism independent of religion.

That's conformity, not morality.

[Barrister]

I have no idea what you're talking about when you talk about 'a throwaway line in the hebrew bible that is never used'.

Genesis 1:27

27 So God created mankind in his own image,
    in the image of God he created them;
    male and female he created them.

Theologians and Philosophers ran with this one taking the meaning to be that each individual person is individually created with reason, purpose and value to god; a role in his ultimate plan if you want to say it that way. Other religions don't have that. The original line was possibly ripped off from one of the river culture myths about marduk or amon-ra (or some other god) creating man from clay.

Well "Man was amde in the image of God" is hardly unused - that phrase has been repeated numerous times.

But I was just challenging this notion that religions only teach you how to treat "in group people", by pointing out that Christianity has a prominent message to treat all peoples, Jews and Gentiles alike, as your neighbor.

[dps]

I have no idea what you're talking about when you talk about 'a throwaway line in the hebrew bible that is never used'.

Genesis 1:27

27 So God created mankind in his own image,
    in the image of God he created them;
    male and female he created them.

Theologians and Philosophers ran with this one taking the meaning to be that each individual person is individually created with reason, purpose and value to god; a role in his ultimate plan if you want to say it that way. Other religions don't have that. The original line was possibly ripped off from one of the river culture myths about marduk or amon-ra (or some other god) creating man from clay.

Well "Man was amde in the image of God" is hardly unused - that phrase has been repeated numerous times.

But I was just challenging this notion that religions only teach you how to treat "in group people", by pointing out that Christianity has a prominent message to treat all peoples, Jews and Gentiles alike, as your neighbor.

In theory at least, Christianity is pretty much universalist--everybody is in the "in group";  some just haven't accepted the message yet.  Islam is actually the same, except Islam lays out explicit, detailed rules about how to treat those who haven't yet accepted (and there are different classes of those who haven't accepted the message).  In contrast, Judaism is exceptionalist--there's a clear separation between Jews and non-Jews (again, in theory, and of course even in theory it isn't impossible to become a Jew). 

Well, shucks, I got to rambling a bit there and have no idea what point I was trying to make. 

[Admiral Yi]

That's conformity, not morality.

And a religious person is performing a cost/benefit on the afterlife.  That's not morality either.

[Valmy]

In contrast, Judaism is exceptionalist--there's a clear separation between Jews and non-Jews (again, in theory, and of course even in theory it isn't impossible to become a Jew).

Yeah but even that is a little nuanced.  Like in Jonah where God says how much he loves the Assyrians, when the Assyrians were the nationality everybody hated.  They were picked in the story for exactly that reason, God loves everybody even total assholes like the people of Nineveh.

Which does contradict some of the earlier stuff in the OT but Jewish scriptures get more universalist and God gets more loving as the writings get more recent.  It shows an evolution of Jewish religious thought.

[dps]

That's conformity, not morality.

And a religious person is performing a cost/benefit on the afterlife.  That's not morality either.

Are they?  Religious Jews generally aren't--there's very little thought of an afterlife in Judaism.

[Valmy]

And a religious person is performing a cost/benefit on the afterlife.  That's not morality either.

Or the cost/benefit of God smiting them or rewarding them in this life.

[Viking]

I have no idea what you're talking about when you talk about 'a throwaway line in the hebrew bible that is never used'.

Genesis 1:27

27 So God created mankind in his own image,
    in the image of God he created them;
    male and female he created them.

Theologians and Philosophers ran with this one taking the meaning to be that each individual person is individually created with reason, purpose and value to god; a role in his ultimate plan if you want to say it that way. Other religions don't have that. The original line was possibly ripped off from one of the river culture myths about marduk or amon-ra (or some other god) creating man from clay.

Well "Man was amde in the image of God" is hardly unused - that phrase has been repeated numerous times.

But I was just challenging this notion that religions only teach you how to treat "in group people", by pointing out that Christianity has a prominent message to treat all peoples, Jews and Gentiles alike, as your neighbor.

No, I'm saying that morality towards in-group people is the same (or at least very similar) for all religions. This is the innate morality that enlightenment philosophers talk about. I also added the additional memtic or cultural morality which are rules taught by parents. Treating all men like brothers is new in Christianity. All societies have moral codes about the successful helping the destitute, not all religions demand that you give all your property to the poor and give no care for the morrow (Matthew 6:34). One is a human universal the other is a learned morality. Unsurprisingly Christians cling fast the human universals found in all cultures while abandoning their indoctrinated ones (including the ones about lobsters, cheeseburgers, killing gays, killing apostates and killing people who work on Sundays) all the while claiming their morality comes from the bible.

I assert that Christians do not get their morals from the bible but from their own moral sentiments (again the enlightenment moral philosophers) and the simple argument is that they for the most part ignore the rules specific to the bible and follow the rules universal to nearly all religions.

You have to work very very hard to keep people agreeing that all people have equal rights and exist for their own sake not somebody else's.

[Razgovory]

You know Viking, it would help your arguments if you took the time to learn what Christians actually believer rather then confuse it with Jewish dietary law.

[Barrister]

You know Viking, it would help your arguments if you took the time to learn what Christians actually believer rather then confuse it with Jewish dietary law.

It's his stock-in-trade though.

He can't or won't argue with what people actually believe.  Instead he pretends every Christian is a biblical fundamentalist.

[Malthus]

In theory at least, Christianity is pretty much universalist--everybody is in the "in group";  some just haven't accepted the message yet.  Islam is actually the same, except Islam lays out explicit, detailed rules about how to treat those who haven't yet accepted (and there are different classes of those who haven't accepted the message).  In contrast, Judaism is exceptionalist--there's a clear separation between Jews and non-Jews (again, in theory, and of course even in theory it isn't impossible to become a Jew). 

Well, shucks, I got to rambling a bit there and have no idea what point I was trying to make.

In terms of morality, Judaism is far more universalist - in Judaism, non-Jews are accepted as being just as righteous as religious Jews so long as they follow the "Noahide laws" (as in, no murdering, no stealing, etc.). The religious theory this is based on is that Noah was famously a righteous man, and of course he was not a Jew; moreover, he's the alleged universal ancestor.

In many forms of Christianity, you can only be saved if you are Christian. In Islam, all "people of te book" (Jews, Christians) are sorta OK, if lesser. Only in Judaism can a non-Jew be morally fully equal to a Jew.

Of course, this raises the question as to why anyone would particularly want to be a Jew ... 

[DGuller]

In theory at least, Christianity is pretty much universalist--everybody is in the "in group";  some just haven't accepted the message yet.  Islam is actually the same, except Islam lays out explicit, detailed rules about how to treat those who haven't yet accepted (and there are different classes of those who haven't accepted the message).  In contrast, Judaism is exceptionalist--there's a clear separation between Jews and non-Jews (again, in theory, and of course even in theory it isn't impossible to become a Jew). 

Well, shucks, I got to rambling a bit there and have no idea what point I was trying to make.

In terms of morality, Judaism is far more universalist - in Judaism, non-Jews are accepted as being just as righteous as religious Jews so long as they follow the "Noahide laws" (as in, no murdering, no stealing, etc.). The religious theory this is based on is that Noah was famously a righteous man, and of course he was not a Jew; moreover, he's the alleged universal ancestor.

In many forms of Christianity, you can only be saved if you are Christian. In Islam, all "people of te book" (Jews, Christians) are sorta OK, if lesser. Only in Judaism can a non-Jew be morally fully equal to a Jew.

Of course, this raises the question as to why anyone would particularly want to be a Jew ... 

Yeah, Jews really didn't think that part through.  Say what you will about Islam, but they know how to corner the market once they enter it.

[Admiral Yi]

I came up with a new theory of morality during dinner: the root cause is the joy one feels when pointing out another's shortcomings.

[Caliga]

Of course, this raises the question as to why anyone would particularly want to be a Jew ... 

for the jokes.