Where do atheists get their morals from?

Started by Viking, August 01, 2012, 02:22:56 AM

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Viking

#30
August 01, 2012, 08:00:28 AM
Quote from: Solmyr on August 01, 2012, 07:41:53 AM
Yeah, but what I'm saying is that those ideas came to us via Christianity first and foremost. Having the Enlightenment doesn't change that. And I'm saying that as a secularist agnostic. :P

No, you responded to a claim that these morals were universal with a claim that they derived from christian teaching.

The only reason they came via christianity is because that specific religion managed to attain a monopoly on morality and ethics. Our present morals and ethics match much better with the universal morals and ethics shared by all people than they do to the specific morals and ethics as described in christian morality.
First Maxim - "There are only two amounts, too few and enough."
First Corollary - "You cannot have too many soldiers, only too few supplies."
Second Maxim - "Be willing to exchange a bad idea for a good one."
Second Corollary - "You can only be wrong or agree with me."

A terrorist which starts a slaughter quoting Locke, Burke and Mill has completely missed the point.
The fact remains that the only person or group to applaud the Norway massacre are random Islamists.

Barrister

#31
August 01, 2012, 08:00:53 AM
Quote from: HVC on August 01, 2012, 02:43:16 AM
Didn't read your long post but i'll assume it's anti-religious.
Posts here are my own private opinions.  I do not speak for my employer.

Viking

#32
August 01, 2012, 08:01:30 AM
Quote from: Razgovory on August 01, 2012, 07:42:27 AM
Quote from: Viking on August 01, 2012, 07:21:23 AM
Quote from: Razgovory on August 01, 2012, 06:52:54 AM
Perhaps if Hitchens was less concerned about religion poisoning anything and more concerned with tobacco poisoning, him he might still be alive.

You mentioned "memes" :bleeding: as a source of morality.  Perhaps you'd like to show us the proof that memes actually exist?

Proselytizing religions are memes. Perhaps you'd like to show us some proof that you understand the word?

I asked first.  Can you give evidence that memes exist?  I wouldn't be able to understand something that doesn't exist now would I?

An example of an existing meme is sufficient proof for the existence of memes. 
First Maxim - "There are only two amounts, too few and enough."
First Corollary - "You cannot have too many soldiers, only too few supplies."
Second Maxim - "Be willing to exchange a bad idea for a good one."
Second Corollary - "You can only be wrong or agree with me."

A terrorist which starts a slaughter quoting Locke, Burke and Mill has completely missed the point.
The fact remains that the only person or group to applaud the Norway massacre are random Islamists.

Viking

#33
August 01, 2012, 08:11:35 AM
Quote from: Razgovory on August 01, 2012, 07:43:30 AM
Quote from: Viking on August 01, 2012, 07:22:58 AM
Quote from: Razgovory on August 01, 2012, 06:57:28 AM
Quote from: Gups on August 01, 2012, 06:50:45 AM
Quote from: Solmyr on August 01, 2012, 05:15:12 AM
The funny thing is though, the modern, western morals are almost entirely based on Christian teachings.

Give some examples.

compassion for the poor and weak, the cherishing of children, charity to the poor etc.

Holy shit, I didn't know that Islam, Buddhism, Jainism, Zoroastrianism etc.etc. were also almost entirely based on Christian teachings.

Really?  How strong is your understanding of the religious texts of Zoroastrianism?

It is sufficient to know that the zoroastrians believe that good deeds are a moral duty and necessary to keep the world from dissolving into nothingness. You obviously don't know shit. (zoom zoom)
First Maxim - "There are only two amounts, too few and enough."
First Corollary - "You cannot have too many soldiers, only too few supplies."
Second Maxim - "Be willing to exchange a bad idea for a good one."
Second Corollary - "You can only be wrong or agree with me."

A terrorist which starts a slaughter quoting Locke, Burke and Mill has completely missed the point.
The fact remains that the only person or group to applaud the Norway massacre are random Islamists.

Viking

#34
August 01, 2012, 08:12:39 AM
Quote from: Razgovory on August 01, 2012, 07:44:31 AM
So if I find one religion that doesn't preach compassion then you'll concede your point?

I'll concede the point when you find a successful religion that preaches anti-compassion to in-group members.
First Maxim - "There are only two amounts, too few and enough."
First Corollary - "You cannot have too many soldiers, only too few supplies."
Second Maxim - "Be willing to exchange a bad idea for a good one."
Second Corollary - "You can only be wrong or agree with me."

A terrorist which starts a slaughter quoting Locke, Burke and Mill has completely missed the point.
The fact remains that the only person or group to applaud the Norway massacre are random Islamists.

Viking

#35
August 01, 2012, 08:26:49 AM
Quote from: Neil on August 01, 2012, 07:52:51 AM
Universal values?  That's a rather bold statement, given that you're talking about a whole bunch of religions that are interrelated.  Not a strong argument.

Yes, Christianity "stole" those ideas from all the "untrue" religions for the simple reason that this is what people believed anyways. You can't claim that compassion and care for children are christian values because they exist in all societies including the non-christian ones. Being christian is not a relevant factor in finding out if you are compassionate and care for children.

All the successful religions share a set of basic rules. They share these rules not because some book or god told them these rules but because they value them already. It's not like the Israelites out in the desert didn't know that lying, stealing and murder were immoral before Moses went up the mountain and came back with the stone tablets. The Egyptians before them knew this very well and had their own equivalent commandments and theology. Do you think the egyptians didn't know that stealing, lying and murder were wrong?

The sumerians and egyptians knew that theft, perjury and murder were immoral well before YAHWE supposedly created the world.

Far from weakening my point, the fact that all these interrelated (and the non-related ones as well) agree on basic morality it confirms it. If you get your morality from god or scripture the greater the deviation your religion has from the supposed true god the greater we expect your deviation in morality to be. We do not find this. Religion is very specifically not a source of morality specifically since  the "what" questions of morality are all the same among all religions for their in-groups. The variation is in the "how" questions.
First Maxim - "There are only two amounts, too few and enough."
First Corollary - "You cannot have too many soldiers, only too few supplies."
Second Maxim - "Be willing to exchange a bad idea for a good one."
Second Corollary - "You can only be wrong or agree with me."

A terrorist which starts a slaughter quoting Locke, Burke and Mill has completely missed the point.
The fact remains that the only person or group to applaud the Norway massacre are random Islamists.

grumbler

#36
August 01, 2012, 08:29:19 AM
A thread that starts with the moronic idea that morals are at least partially "genetic" and builds from there.  Love it!

Also love the debate about whether memes exist.  Next debate:  does "gravity" exist?

*pops popcorn*
The future is all around us, waiting, in moments of transition, to be born in moments of revelation. No one knows the shape of that future or where it will take us. We know only that it is always born in pain.   -G'Kar

Bayraktar!

Valmy

#37
August 01, 2012, 08:32:13 AM Last Edit: August 01, 2012, 08:35:18 AM by Valmy
I always feel strange in these threads.  On one hand I feel the need to defend my culture and my religion from Viking's ferocious attacks...on the other I do not really claim or believe the things he is trying to disprove.  While the Ancient Romans and Greeks did some pretty messed up shit I think they are as much the ancestors of our moral system as Christianity...since in so many ways Christianity carries along alot of their values.  So I would guess the place Atheists get their morals from is the same place Christians got alot of theirs: from Ancient Philosophy.
Quote"This is a Russian warship. I propose you lay down arms and surrender to avoid bloodshed & unnecessary victims. Otherwise, you'll be bombed."

Zmiinyi defenders: "Russian warship, go fuck yourself."

Valmy

#38
August 01, 2012, 08:36:40 AM
Quote from: Viking on August 01, 2012, 08:26:49 AM
Yes, Christianity "stole" those ideas from all the "untrue" religions for the simple reason that this is what people believed anyways.

:bleeding: x 1000

Yes and the West "stole" Algebra from the Arabs :P
Quote"This is a Russian warship. I propose you lay down arms and surrender to avoid bloodshed & unnecessary victims. Otherwise, you'll be bombed."

Zmiinyi defenders: "Russian warship, go fuck yourself."

Malthus

#39
August 01, 2012, 08:41:32 AM
"To those who say the Apaches do not know right from wrong and that is why they are so vicious - I say, try wronging one and see what happens".

- Life Among the Apaches, John C. Cremony
The object of life is not to be on the side of the majority, but to escape finding oneself in the ranks of the insane—Marcus Aurelius

Gups

#40
August 01, 2012, 08:45:24 AM
My view is that these values are not exactly universal but are a necessary development to allow societies to develop following the agricultural revolution.

PDH

#41
August 01, 2012, 08:46:14 AM
To sum it up -

Viking:  Religion Bad
Others: No, religion gave some western morals
Martinus: Religion bad?  Me like!
Others:  Confusing statements not supported
Anti Religion side: Christianity all Old Testament!  Converging morality all strawmen!
(somewhere in here Raz-bombing commences, personal attacks on some)
Others: Ignore points, debate Languish style
Anti Relion side: Ignore points, debate Languish style
I have come to believe that the whole world is an enigma, a harmless enigma that is made terrible by our own mad attempt to interpret it as though it had an underlying truth.
-Umberto Eco

-------
"I'm pretty sure my level of depression has nothing to do with how much of a fucking asshole you are."

-CdM

DGuller

#42
August 01, 2012, 08:48:19 AM
Quote from: grumbler on August 01, 2012, 08:29:19 AM
A thread that starts with the moronic idea that morals are at least partially "genetic" and builds from there.  Love it!
Is conscience and remorse a learned behavior?

Martinus

#43
August 01, 2012, 08:49:30 AM
Anyway, to answer the OP, I got mine from Tesco. I still got my receipt, so I may return them at some point, especially as they are largely unused.

Martinus

#44
August 01, 2012, 08:51:11 AM
Quote from: Viking on August 01, 2012, 07:28:38 AM
Quote from: Brazen on August 01, 2012, 07:24:47 AM
The same we we learn everything, by observing the microcosm of society that immediately surrounds us and applying the learnt response. In this case that would be being rewarded for behaving in a way considered "good" by our nearest and dearest and assuming the same applied to greater society. As we grow we realise the "reward" may not come immediately, or at all in some interactions,  but on the whole what goes around comes around. "Do unto others" and all that. Oh wait, that's the Bible :P

I'm sure that Confusius (~500 BC) and Rabbi Hillel (~100 BC) got that idea from Jesus as well? iirc it's in the Upanishads as well. If anything christian morality is claiming that it invented our evolved innate morality.

So did Seneca and many stoics.
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